On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Cullen, and his officials. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the following Estimates: Vote 10, Office of Public Works, Revised Estimate and further Revised Estimate, and Vote 44, Flood Relief, Revised Estimate and further Revised Estimate. A proposed timetable has been circulated for the meeting. It will allow for opening statements by the Minister of State and Opposition spokespersons. We will then have a discussion on Vote 10 followed by a discussion on Vote 44. Is that agreed? Agreed. I now invite the Minister of State to make his opening statement.
Estimates for Public Services, 2000.
Vote 10 - Office of Public Works (Revised and Further Revised).
Vote 44 - Flood Relief (Revised and Further Revised)
I am pleased to introduce the Estimates for the Office of Public Works for the year 2000. Before dealing with the main heads of expenditure within the Estimate, I wish to refer to current developments in my office. As I have stated in the past, my objective for the Office of Public Works is that it should adapt a commercially-minded approach to its operations, enhance customer service, provide a clear focus on value for money and identify possible new areas of business activity. I am pleased to report that the Office of Public Works continues to make excellent progress in these areas. An example of the quality and service-led ethos I wish to develop is the recent award of the ISO 9002 accreditation to our project management services, a first for the Civil Service. I am particularly proud of this achievement and I commend the staff concerned, who worked extremely hard, in achieving the award. The office is actively pursuing accreditation for its other business units.
This year the Estimate for my office includes a provision of £113.4 million for accommodation for asylum seekers. As this is a new and significant programme of expenditure, it would be appropriate to outline the role of my office in the provision of accommodation for asylum seekers. The Government decision of 28 March last set out comprehensive objectives in relation to the asylum seeker accommodation programme. Broadly speaking, these are the provisions of the programme: 2,000 places in existing accommodation; 4,000 places in temporary buildings; 4,000 places in permanent accommodation; 1,000 places in mobile homes; and 1,000 places in flotels. My office, acting as agent for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, is actively pursuing these options. I propose to briefly describe the current position in relation to each of these sectors.
The Office of Public Works has no direct involvement in contracting for existing accommodation in B&Bs, hotels, hostels etc. and there is, therefore, no financial outlay from the Office of Public Works Vote. These arrangements are, in the main, made directly between the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and individual proprietors. My office, acting on the instructions of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, is responsible for the purchase of suitable properties for use as asylum seeker accommodation. The purchase of two hotels has already been completed in 2000 and legal formalities are being completed in respect of a number of other properties. I am proposing that £60 million be provided in subhead D of the Vote to cover the purchase of suitable properties and sites.
In parallel with this activity, my office is also working to develop building proposals with the private sector for a substantial number of prefabricated buildings. The total requirement in the current year to cover the cost of site development, purchase and erection of prefabricated buildings is in the order of £41.4 million. Mobile homes capable of accommodating up to 1,000 people have been provided at three sites in Kildare, Athlone and Tralee. A provision of £10 million has been made to cover this element. When added together, the provision for prefabricated buildings and mobile homes makes up a total requirement of £51.4 million in subhead E.
It is envisaged that there may also be a requirement under the programme to lease suitable properties to accommodate asylum seekers. The provision proposed in respect of this element is in the order of £2 million under subhead F3. As a longer-term solution, the Government has decided to provide permanent places in purpose-built accommodation. This will be done on a public-private partnership basis on various sites around the country. These locations have yet to be identified by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and my office will continue to work with that Department in sourcing any proposed sites. These PPP schemes will be subject to the full normal planning process.
I wish now to turn to the remainder of the Vote and deal with the main areas of expenditure. The total amount being sought for the Vote is £332.356 million. A sum of £292 million is sought for the office's accommodation programme. At £141.126 million, subhead E - new works, alterations and additions - is the largest element of the accommodation programme. The major areas of expenditure this year are £51.4 million for asylum seekers, to which I referred earlier, £22.5 million for Leinster House 2000, £20 million for office rationalisation and refurbishment £15 million for the Garda building programme and £15 million for cultural institutions. The balance is spread over a wide range of projects throughout the country and also includes an overseas project, the Irish College in Paris, for which the Government recently sanctioned £7 million. Before moving on from subhead E, I take this opportunity to reassure Deputies that we are still on schedule to complete the Leinster House project in time for the autumn session.
A sum of £44.784 million is sought for rent and rates. The Office of Public Works manages 11 million square feet of office accommodation, of which approximately 23% is leased. Property rents have risen significantly in recent years in response to market conditions. This is reflected in the fact that the Office of Public Works's rent reviews on Dublin properties are currently increasing by 11% on average per annum. Nevertheless, in 1999 the average Office of Public Works rental in Dublin was just over £11 per square foot, which compares very favourably with the current market rent of between £27 and £36 per square foot.
I expect that the Office of Public Works will be in a position to further reduce its leased accommodation in Dublin when the forthcoming decentralisation programme gets under way. The Government will shortly be making a statement regarding the planned decentralisation of public servants out of Dublin and I, as Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, look forward to playing a central role in ensuring the success of this programme. I am sure this is a matter that will be engaging us for the coming years.
A provision of £86 million is sought for the purchase of sites and buildings. As stated earlier, £60 million is required to provide accommodation for asylum seekers. The balance of £26 million is to cater for the Office of Public Works's accommodation programme, particularly as it relates to the Garda programme and the Marine Institute, which is to be relocated to Galway.
As part of Office of Public Works's policy to purchase strategic properties and to acquire the freehold in properties held under long and onerous leases, specific target properties are being identified on an ongoing basis. The constantly changing situation in relation to the provision of accommodation in an extremely volatile market has created a difficulty in estimating expenditure for these subheads. The proposed provisions reflect the anticipated demand for services in these areas and are, of necessity, based on estimated requirements.
The other major programme on the Vote is drainage and engineering works for which £19.972 million is sought. This programme comprises the arterial drainage maintenance and the various flood relief schemes. A sum of £7.6 million is being sought for the arterial drainage maintenance programme. Following publication of the PricewaterhouseCoopers report on the programme, the Office of Public Works is now implementing its various recommendations.
The flood relief programme will require £10 million in the year 2000. The position with regard to local flood relief schemes is as follows: Cappamore is scheduled for completion in 2000, Dunmanway will reach works stage this summer for completion in 2001, Kilkenny and Carrick-on-Suir are on schedule to commence works in autumn of this year, and Carlow and Clonmel are on schedule to go on public exhibition before the end of this year. The Minister for Finance provided a sum of £2.5 million in the 2000 budget to alleviate flooding in south Galway. I have established a steering group comprising representatives of the IFA, the ICMSA, Dúchas, Galway County Council and the Office of Public Works to bring forward proposals. The group is examining many options, especially Tarmon, Kilchreest, Kiltiernan and others. They have also identified two schemes for the Mannin Cross and Cregclare areas which I expect to bring to public exhibition before the end of this year. My office is in negotiation with several local authorities with a view to having them carry out some small schemes on our behalf. I expect Limerick County Council to undertake work in Dromcollagher and Cork County Council in Freemount this year. Other areas in various parts of the country are also being considered.
At last year's meeting of the committee I was asked about the feasibility of the Commissioners of Public Works taking over the management and control of the existing embankments from the Land Commission. Since then I have examined the matter and I would like to report back to the committee members on their interest in that subject. The problem is complex and involves in excess of 500 kilometres of embankments countrywide. Some of the embankment schemes have trust funds available from which maintenance work is undertaken as and when required. However, there is a large number of schemes with no trust funds where responsibility for maintenance lies with the individual landowner. Some of the trust funds yield so little in cash terms, they are almost irrelevant. It would not be feasible or practicable to transfer responsibility for all Land Commission embankments immediately. My officials are examining the information available to ensure that those embankments in most urgent need of attention are dealt with first. Finally on Vote 10, the administration costs of the Office of Public Works are expected to amount to £20.927 million in 2000, which represents 5.6% of the total Vote.
I wish to refer briefly to Vote 44. The Estimate of £501,000 provides for approximately £130,000 in home relocation grants to two householders in south Galway who suffered severe flooding in 1995 and again last winter, and up to £250,000 in humanitarian assistance to certain victims of flooding in the Limerick area. Regarding the assistance for victims of flooding in the Limerick area, it is intended that humanitarian assistance will be provided through the Irish Red Cross Society to certain residents and proprietors whose premises were flooded when the Abbey river flooded over the Christmas period. I emphasise that the circumstances in Limerick were exceptional and do not provide a precedent for State intervention in other circumstances in which private property is flooded as a result of rivers bursting their banks. The Department of Finance is endeavouring to finalise the terms of the scheme under which financial assistance will be paid.
I thank committee members for their attention and I will be pleased to hear their views and do my best to answer any questions they may wish to raise.
I welcome the Minister of State and his officials and thank the Minister of State for his contribution. I compliment the project management services of the Office of Public Works for receiving the ISO 9002 accreditation award. It is the first in the Civil Service to do so. The people involved must feel justifiably proud of this fine achievement. No doubt other sections of Government will take notice and, I hope, follow suit.
I wish to refer to some of the provisions in the Estimate. A sum of £113.4 million has been provided for accommodation for asylum seekers, which is a large provision. Given that it is uncertain how many asylum seekers will arrive - I understand the numbers continue to increase and perhaps the Minister of State's officials will confirm that - does he believe this is adequate provision? If this amount is not sufficient, will he have to introduce a further Supplementary Estimate in the autumn to cover unforeseen expenditure in this area? It is a substantial amount for the Minister of State's office and it does not take into account moneys paid by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. If the Minister of State has the information available to him, it would be interesting for the committee to know the total amount spent on asylum seekers.
I am interested to know the number of mobile homes being located in Ballymullen in Tralee. The original number was 50 to accommodate families or groups of four, which would give a total of 200 people. Following objections by local people, the number of homes was reduced to 15. Perhaps the Minister of State would be able to confirm the number of mobile homes being located at the Ballymullen site. I know it is not the responsibility of the Minister of State, but it was a bad decision to locate this type of settlement in Ballymullen, which is a traditional village with a large number of old people. The location of asylum seekers struck fear into the local community, although such fear may have been unfounded, and the manner in which their location was imposed without consultation was a bad exercise in public relations. I hope the people involved in dealing with refugees have learned from that experience and that they consult with people before they make decisions unannounced.
The people in Ballymullen were reasonable. Tralee has the highest concentration of refugees and asylum seekers outside Dublin. The people have been tolerant of and helpful towards refugees. I watched an under-12 football game recently and two asylum seekers were on one of the teams. I noticed the sympathetic manner in which they were treated by their team-mates on the field. They all wanted to pass the ball to them. There is a message in that.
It shows how desperate Kerry football is.
Not totally. Deputy McDowell, not being a GAA man, is not aware of what happened last Sunday.
Perhaps he saw the referee in action.
That experience in terms of consultation in Ballymullen should not be repeated elsewhere. I hope the solution works, despite the fact that it is inappropriate for Tralee and that location. I hope there will not be further additions.
Regarding flotels, has the Minister of State decided where they should be located throughout the country? The total requirement, the cost of site development, purchase and erection of prefabricated buildings is in the order of £41.4 million. I presume the sites that are being purchased and the prefabs being provided will have later use if, say, the refugee problem wanes and goes away, as I hope it will. There is an investment factor here and these prefabs could be reused or resold. The Minister of State might expand on the future plans for these sites when the refugee problem wanes. Some of these asylum seekers will not be granted asylum status and will have to leave the country. I am sure there is some scheme to ensure the public gets some value out of this development.
Regarding office accommodation in Leinster House, I note the figure of £22.5 million here. The gymnasium is an old hobbyhorse of mine which I have raised before. Has its location been decided? I understand it is to be over here. Has a supplier been contracted for equipment? What consultations have been carried out to ensure the right equipment is purchased? There is a lot of equipment of different quality on the market. I am interested in the current position as we are getting one chance to do this properly. Every parliament building in Europe has proper recreational facilities and we have sold ourselves very short in this area over the years. If people can be convinced that a gymnasium would be of value in the quality of service a Deputy can give constituents, they would support it. People who are fit and healthy can give a better return, that is obvious. It is interesting to note that the Southern Health Board is paying proprietors of gymnasia in Cork to put patients with cardiac problems, for example, through programmes. I regard a gymnasium in the House as very important. Any of us involved in sport or with any understanding of the value of fitness would be supportive of that.
The Marine Institute is moving to Galway. The Minister of State put that in with the Garda programme and perhaps he will give an idea of what that will cost. Regarding drainage and engineering, the report for the Feale project will be ready in November and no doubt will be covered in next year's Estimates, but will the Minister of State bring us up to date with what is happening with the Feale and Cashin project which is being drawn up by Professor O'Kane of UCC? That report will have some very interesting suggestions for that part of the catchment area of the River Feale. I suggested last year that the Minister of State look at the embankments owned by the Land Commission. They are crumbling and disintegrating because they are not being maintained. I am glad the Minister of State proposes to take on some of them which need immediate repair. The embankment in Carrig Island, Ballylongford, has been breached by the Shannon and an individual's livelihood has been taken away.
I am stung by Deputy Deeni-han's throw-away remark that I am not a GAA man. The GAA is very strong in the part of Dublin city I am from and we are glad Mr. Murphy has been repatriated to it.
There are two sides to the asylum seeker issue. One is the immediate crisis and the other is the long-term provision. We have an immediate crisis which we are dealing with rather poorly, but if we treat this as a problem it will not go away. There is every likelihood of people looking for asylum in the country, perhaps not in the numbers of the past 18 months, but in significant numbers. It is important to respond to the current crisis and some of the measures outlined by the Minister of State, based on previous Government decisions, are clearly crisis measures. However, it is also important to make appropriate long-term provision for what will be a continuing need. The numbers come from the Government statement and the Minister of State says the existing accommodation problem is not specifically the responsibility of the Office of Public Works but is dealt with by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
No, I will clarify this as it leads to confusion. The direct contracting with proprietors in bed and breakfast accommodation and hotels for rooms is done specifically and exclusively by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I have no funds for that in my Vote and it does not show up there. When one gets into the purchasing and leasing of property, we do so under the direction of the Department.
The existing 2,000 places are in bed and breakfast accommodation, hostels and so on and they are done directly. I take it the 4,000 places in temporary accommodation are in mobile homes and prefabs, for which the Minister of State has made provision of £41.4 million.
Is the flotels idea totally dead? We have all heard reports of various port authorities refusing permission for flotels to be located in their ports and I believed that even as an emergency measure it was daft and offensive. Inevitably it gave a notion of criminalisation and I cannot see that any flotel could possibly have the kind of accommodation people would need. Families who cannot work, with limited resources and new to the country will not be happily accommodated in a flotel. It always struck me as an emergency measure I would prefer not to take. If the Minister of State told me the idea was going nowhere, I would not be sorry.
It is important to emphasise that the temporary accommodation is just that. Mobile homes and prefabs are not an ideal way to accommodate refugees. I accept that in current circumstances they must be used and it is right to disperse asylum seekers and refugees as widely as possible throughout the country, ideally with significant consultation with the local community before doing so. However, that temporary accommodation is not ideal and looking five years down the road I hope we will not be accommodating asylum seekers and refugees in those conditions. Ideally we should have reception centres where people are told their rights and where they are set up. Then they should be dispersed to accommodation where hopefully they would stay only a few months while their applications are processed.
Was that the Taoiseach's suggestion which caused such a furore in Australia?
I do not think so. Reception centres are just that, I am not talking about detention centres. These would be places people would go to be briefed as to their rights and how to proceed and they could then be accommodated in various parts of the country. I am not talking about forcible detention anywhere. Reception centres are ideally places asylum seekers would want to go as they would be assisted there. In an ideal situation, people should only stay in temporary accommodation until they can work or a decision is handed down in their case. If they are allowed to stay they would then be free to carry on business or work in the same way as Irish citizens. It is not working that way at present and that is regrettable. However, it is understandable to some extent given the crisis in which we find ourselves.
I would like the Minister of State to go through those places in more detail. He said he is providing £60 million to purchase suitable properties and sites. If he has a list let us have it or at least he should give us some idea of the sort of accommodation he is talking about. He mentioned two hotels and other properties concerning which he is in negotiations. I would like some more detail on this issue. For example, is it intended to retain the hotels? Will they be converted or retained indefinitely, or are they simply temporary crisis measures?
I assume a Supplementary Estimate will be needed later in the year to deal with decentralisation. I accept that the Minister of State will claim he is constrained in what he can say as the Government has not made a decision and specific decisions have not been implemented. I presume we are going to decentralise Departments, sections of Departments or public service bodies to parts of the country where Office of Public Works accommodation is not available and, therefore, that a Supplementary Estimate will be required later in the year to provide for the acquisition of accommodation. Can we have some indication of where we stand on this as it is an extremely important part of the Office of Public Works's work over the next while?
I do not claim any expertise in the area of flood relief but I know something of the situation in south Galway. What is the update on that situation? This problem recurs constantly and requires medium-term and long-term measures, not just measures to deal with particular difficulties year in year out. Will the Minister of State say something about Carrick-on-Suir which is subject to regular flooding?
Perhaps the Minister of State would like to answer some of the points raised following which we can move into a discussion.
I thank the Deputies for their detailed responses and questions which I will try to answer. I thank Deputy Deenihan for his compliments, particularly relating to the Office of Public Works, some of whose staff are sitting beside me. It is a remarkable achievement that the certificate of ISO 9002 has been achieved by a public sector body. This is a first for the Civil Service and enormous credit is due. I hope it marks out for many people who have a mistaken view of what the Office of Public Works does that its quality is as good as anything one will find internationally. The ISO has clearly demonstrated that the Office of Public Works is good enough and better than most in the world in terms of its experience. There is a real determination among other business units, all of which are pursuing ISO accreditation. It is a compliment that people in the public sector go above and beyond what is required and have a great pride in their work and what they do. I thank the committee for those remarks which are due to the staff. I am proud of their achievement.
Some of the questions are intertwined so I will try to deal with them together. Deputy Deenihan asked about the uncertainty in numbers, whether a Supplementary Estimate would be required this year and how it would work out. We have looked at the situation and gauged what has been happening heretofore in the context of the overall Estimate. We are reasonably confident given the sort of ups and downs we have had that we have built in a reasonable guesstimate of what we need. I hope we will not have to come back to the committee but members know we just cannot be sure.
Deputy McDowell asked about the current situation. Things seem to be on a more even keel. The rush in the graph of rising numbers seems to have levelled a little but one could not predict that this will remain the position for the coming months.
Is that amount of money allowed to meet that number of places?
It does. I can meet what I have in the Estimate at the moment and that is why we provided for that. It is also based on what is happening at present so we feel reasonably confident. I cannot say that with absolute certainty because we all know the uncertainty of the people with whom we are dealing.
In the context of the overall amount I do not have figures for other Departments. Members will appreciate I can only give the total sums factually, openly and transparently. I am trying to convey all the different parts to the committee, some of which are outside my brief, but the committee is entitled to the full picture. I have given as much as I can in terms of figures.
In terms of mobile homes we were asked to provide up to 1,000 places clearly and properly by discussion, as outlined by Deputy Deenihan in his own area, with county councils and those involved. The number may not go onto the site and I cannot give specifics as to what has happened. I can only say that I have fulfilled in terms of the Government's——
How many has the Minister of State factored in for Tralee?
The maximum was 50.
The impression in Tralee is that there are 15.
My difficulty is that I am providing the accommodation. Who occupies that accommodation and how it happens is a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
So the Minister of State is providing 50?
I am providing as requested. It is clear it is probably unlikely that in the context of the specific site the Deputy is talking about, this provision will be achieved. One of the advantages of mobile homes and prefabrication is their mobility and flexibility in terms of being able to move them around.
I do not wish to make an issue of this but will the Minister of State confirm that the understanding was that an agreement was made between the local action group, Tralee urban council and the directorate that 15 mobile units were going on the site?
I am sure if that is what was agreed, that is what will be fulfilled.
The Minister of State has factored into his Estimate——
Yes, and I have done so all over the place. They have to be placed somewhere. The Deputy will understand I cannot take them out of the Estimate because they might not be on the specific site. I am giving a broad outline of what is happening. Clearly the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the directorate are taking a more flexible approach.
Obviously they will not go on the site if they are not supposed to go on it.
Yes, and I have no reason to doubt the agreements put in place by the Department and the directorate with the local authority. There could be 50 on the site but the occupancy rate could be much lower. There could be a greater spread. Instead of having four, five or six people in a mobile home, one might have two or three. That is another factor.
I do not wish to labour the point but it was quite clear there were to be 15 mobile units on the site. Are they there already? Have any units been put on the site? It was being prepared but are they about to be put on the site?
We have prepared the site for 50 units but it is up to the directorate and the Department to use what they require. We have prepared the site for 50 but I do not think there are 50 on the site at present.
They will not go on the site if there are only to be 15 units on it.
We are subject to what the Department tells us to do. If the directorate and the Department have come to some agreement that there is to be 15, I am sure they will convey it to us and that is what we will fulfil. There is no difficulty in doing so.
Can we go through the provision of mobile homes in more detail. The Minister of State is talking about space for 1,000 people. How many mobile homes are we talking about?
About 250.
That is an average of 4 people per home?
Yes.
Is that just for the three sites?
Yes, in Athlone and Kildare.
What numbers are we talking about for the others? Obviously you are talking about up to 50 in Tralee. Will the other two cater for 100 each?
The numbers were quite large but we have reduced them. There were 400 involved for both of the sites.
Some 400 units?
Negotiations have been ongoing between the directors, the Department and local interests.
Is that true of the other two cases also?
The numbers are being reduced.
It is not just reducing them. They may be reduced dramatically.
They are being reduced but not dramatically.
A reduction from 50 to 15 is fairly dramatic.
It depends on the numbers. It will probably be four per 15. It is better that discussion takes place at local level, as Deputy Deenihan has outlined. I have seen an integrated approach abroad. It is interesting that the children are involved in sport and local clubs. I saw this taking place in Holland where there was a sports officer on board the flotels dealing with placing children in clubs. In this country they could be involved in football, hurling, soccer clubs or whatever. This was a very important element of how the whole concept worked. I have a starting point and I must move this project forward.
If you cannot locate the 250 homes in those three sites——
We are looking at other sites.
The provision is for 250 homes? These will be provided in other sites, together with the three sites mentioned.
That is correct.
Has the Minister of State worked out a process of consultation or is it a case of hammer them first and wait for the reaction?
In fairness to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which has been dealing with this issue in very difficult circumstances, it has been doing a good job in the context of a crisis that arose. If either of us swapped positions, things might not be much different. Great credit is due to the officials involved, particularly in my Department. I do not have a role at that level. My role is simply to act under the instructions of the Department. I am almost an agent on behalf of the Department to provide the physical accommodation. However, in terms of the other issues raised, it is a matter for the directorate of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Unfortunately, the Office of Public Works has been misunderstood as to what its role is. I am at pains to make that role clear because it is important that happens. Given that this has been made clear, people will know to whom they are talking. The role of the Office of Public Works is to provide facilities. If Office of Public Works is required to look at properties, sites or hotels from a fire safety and accommodation point of view, it will do so and report back to the Department. At that point, it is a matter for others to make the decision to purchase or lease the property. I provide a purely technical assessment so that what is required can be accommodated within the property.
Perhaps the Minister of State will confirm that there were no visits to Ballybunion, County Kerry. There was a rumour locally that there was a visit by some of the Minister's officials which I would like him to dispel. I put down a Dáil Question which confirmed there was no visit but I would like the Minister of State to clarify the position.
I do not have the answer now and I am not being evasive. I would provide the Deputy with the answer if I had it, but I simply do not know. In a general sense, we are being offered properties throughout the country. However, just because properties are looked at does not mean we will buy or lease them because a number of factors must be considered. I will try to get the information for the Deputy.
I am one of the few people who has seen the prefabricated buildings, flotels and so on and there is enormous misunderstanding in relation to them. The quality of modern build supersedes what we might have been used to even ten years ago and our perception of these facilities fall short of what they are in reality. On the prefabricated buildings I have seen abroad, I assure Members that some of the accommodation is way ahead of some of the built accommodation in different parts of this country. Perhaps that does not justify some of the quality of other buildings, but they are excellent. I have seen how they operate and I was quite surprised and impressed. I was on a flotel and it was not some gruesome prison ship. I was very taken aback by the quality of the flotel. Whether one would like to live there for their entire life is another matter. In fact, the accommodation spec was higher on the flotel than it was on the land property. For example, each room on the flotel had its own bathroom en suite, which was not necessarily the case on some of the land properties.
The issue of flotels is on the Government list but, as was made clear by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and reiterated by me, that will be almost the last resort in the sense that if we need to go down that road we will do so. However, regardless of what we do, I wish to assure the committee that the quality of the accommodation is excellent. However, as I said, whether we go down that road remains to be seen.
Is there a provision in the £113 million for flotels?
The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform will be contracting on the same basis as it would contract bed and breakfast accommodation. Provision for flotels is not provided for in my Estimate.
Does that mean the Minister of State is not buying the flotel?
No, it will be leased.
Has the Minister of State looked at facilities?
Many different possibilities have been put to me. My officials and I travelled abroad to carry out technical assessments but the financial arrangements are a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I do not expect we will purchase them as there is no provision in my Estimate to do so.
Why does the Office of Public Works lease or buy mobile homes while the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform deals directly with flotels? What is the difference?
We buy the mobile homes.
The Office of Public Works regularly leases property so it is not purely amatter of tenure.
It is different and sometimes confusing for all of us. We lease many properties such as mobile homes and so on. In relation to flotels, that is done on the basis that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is purchasing space in bed and breakfasts as it were. That is a different type of contract. In other words, the Department will ask a proprietor for 100 beds, contract out the full number and the proprietor provides the service. We are taking a different type of lease. That is the way it is being done but it does fit in with what the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is doing whereby it rents 50 to 100 rooms in an hotel in the same way as one would walk in off the street and rent a room for the night. A property is leased in a different context. There is a difference between the two, although when one begins to discuss the matter the line begins to blur. I have found it very difficult to explain this to the media. This would not prevent us from doing the lot but I am not the one who made the decisions. I am not saying I do not have the capacity to do so but this is the way it is being done. I am the agent, not the one who makes the policy decisions.
Is it the case therefore that the Minister of State does not have a role in relation to the flotels and that the matter is not provided for in the Estimates?
We do in the sense that we make the technical assessment. The Deputy is correct, moneys are not provided in the Estimates; they are provided through the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
The question of prefabs was raised. There is flexibility. The ones we purchase can be put to alternative uses in other parts of the country.
They must therefore be seen as an investment. They have a lifespan of 25 years or more——
They do.
——if looked after properly. Although currently in use to accommodate aslyum seekers, they should be seen as an important part of local authority housing stock.
That is the plan. The plan is to find another use for them.
People should therefore adopt a broader view.
While we have been seeking to solve an immediate problem, the Department and the Office of Public Works are much more anxious to find permanent solutions in PPPs to provide good quality accommodation which, from the perspective of the Office of Public Works, if it is directly involved, will be designed in such a way that they can be put to many alternative uses. We are very keen to move into this area.
Deputy Deenihan referred to the Marine Institute. I cannot give him a figure as negotiations are ongoing. I would not like to——
Before the Minister of State moves away from the area of asylum seekers, I asked a specific question about the properties he is thinking of buying. Two hotels have been bought.
A number of properties are being considered. Until contracts are exchanged I am not in a position to identify them for the simple reason that I cannot show my hand in terms of what I might be prepared to pay.
I take it that the cost will be met from the £60 million.
Yes.
For what proportion do the two hotels already purchased account or will they be funded separately?
Between £4.5 million and £5 million.
I presume they include the one in Rosslare.
They do. The other is Parnell West.
There is therefore an additional provision of £55 million.
Yes. We may not use all of this sum but given our experience we will need it.
I understand what the Minister of State is saying but we are being asked to sanction an allocation of £55 million for more than 3,000 places in permanent accommodation without knowing anything about it.
Two thousand.
I understand what the Minister of State is saying that he needs to engage in contractual negotiations but it places us in a slightly difficult position.
I appreciate that but the Deputy fully understands that the State wants to get the best value for the taxpayer in negotiations. That is one of the main reasons I do not want to say too much. To be fair to those involved they have done very good deals for us. I want to keep it that way. It is an act of faith but I have been very open with the committee and will return at any time to make the facts available. It will then be open to the committee to be critical or otherwise.
On the gymnasium, a matter raised by Deputy Deenihan and by Deputy McDowell in the past, we are taking advice from - I hate using the word loosely - experts in the area, people who should know what they are talking about. Before I proceed further I will return to the steering group and talk to Deputy Deenihan and others in all parties who have a direct interest in the matter. A unilateral decision will not be made. As there is a diverse range of equipment which could be used and different uses to which the gymnasium could be put, I will seek consensus. I agree with the general point that it will be a positive addition to the Houses of the Oireachtas and will be a much used facility.
Is there any possibility that those of us who have a genuine interest in it could meet the steering group to discuss the matter?
We will arrange that for the Deputy.
It would be appreciated.
May I take it that the gymnasium will not located in the new building?
No, it will be located in Kildare House. One of the main reasons for this is that there is a difference of opinion among Members on the space required. By locating it in Kildare House, on which there is consensus, the space available has been trebled.
Siltation in the Cashin Estuary has been an ongoing problem. In April 1996 the Commissioners of Public Works commissioned a hydrographic survey. A computerised model of the river and estuary has been built and the consultants are beginning the process of evaluating the solutions to the silting problems which in the long-term will identify options for maintenance of the scheme. A demonstration of the working model has been arranged for tomorrow, Thursday, 22 June 2000, at the Office of Public Works. Deputies are welcome to attend. There is one rider, we are in the hands of current transport arrangements but all going well the model will arrive on schedule. Local consultation will follow immediately in August and September. With my officials I propose to bring the model and show people exactly what we want to do. At last we are moving ahead with the project.
I thank the Minister of State and his officials for advancing the project which presents exciting opportunities from the point of tourism. It is proposed to provide a lake into which some of the excess water will drain. The project will open a part of north Kerry that is currently hidden in terms of scenery and wildlife. Therefore, it has even greater implications than the drainage of the Cashin Estuary and it is a matter of funding as soon as we agree on the project and are able to move forward. I know the Minister will be very sympathetic if he is still in office. It is a very worthwhile project and people do not realise its full benefit or how exciting it is because they are not aware of the proposal. I can see the project having a European context because of its environmental aspect. It will be one of the most exciting things to come from the Department during the Minister's term of office, something the future will confirm.
I thank and commend the Minister and his officials for the way they have advanced this, the very meticulous way in which Professor O'Kane of UCC carried out the exploratory work and the various surveys and photography, and the trouble gone to to bring in expertise from Germany and other places.
I thank the Deputy for that and I am sure the senior engineer appreciates those comments as he and the staff have put an enormous amount of work into it.
South Galway was mentioned. We did a very comprehensive report there and no overall economic solution was found. I have walked this area and looked at it with my officials. I never realised people were describing wetlands that dry out in the summer rather than dry land that get wet and that there is a fundamental difference between them. Clearly, there have been problems and we have done much work in the area and have had much success. I put together a steering group based on the local people. I brought the IFA, the ICMSA and all the groups together. They have had three or four meetings to date and have identified works. We are now examining the implementation of some of the schemes which though not huge could solve many of the problems which created some of the difficulties heretofore. Even though we could not clearly identify in absolute terms enormous economic benefit by doing it this way and involving everybody else, we will probably get to a point where we will be able to work on a number of smaller peripheral schemes which may have the effect desired by everybody in south Galway. I am getting very positive feedback from the local authorities, the IFA and the people directly affected. It is their committee and it is not loaded with politicians or officials. It is chaired by one of the top people in the Office of Public Works and the work seems to be proceeding very well. They have already identified two schemes which we are examining and they have asked us also to examine other schemes. I am happy that at last we are reaching a conclusion. These things are not easy and there are no magic solutions.
Regarding decentralisation, I do not expect to be returning this year with a Supplementary Estimate. Perhaps Members have a copy of what I said in the Dáil last night during the debate. Decisions are imminent and the Minister has been talking to the Departments and identifying what units will be decentralised. When that is done we must then suit the different projects to different areas. When that has been completed and areas have been identified we will begin to see what is being offered. Many county councils and corporations have been good enough to make property available to the State, which is very positive. I do not necessarily agree that the State should have to spend fortunes buying sites. If local areas want offices they should at least be in a position to provide sites for the State on a quid pro quo basis. We must do the necessary work in an open and transparent manner. I do not think we will need substantial funds in the six months remaining in this year.
I am also examining the very successful design build finance option which was used very successfully the last time. We can also look at PPPs. Much of that detail requires a lead in time, as I made clear last night, and for that reason I do not think a Supplementary Estimate will be necessary in the current year.
It follows that communities in which local authorities can provide accommodation have an advantage over areas where accommodation would have to be provided.
I am not saying that. Last night I made it clear in the House that over 90 submissions have been received. My personal view, which I have said to many Deputies on all sides, is that if a good site is provided by the local authority, as happened under the previous decentralisation scheme——
And a building.
Or possibly even a building - they will be taken into account, as I made clear last night.
We have a fabulous advance factory which is immediately adaptable for any form of enterprise. We can bring the Minister down to open it.
I would be delighted. The scale and quality of the submissions range from local authorities passing a motion and sending a one or two line letter suggesting the State should suddenly decentralise offices to their area to quite well thought out submissions aimed not necessarily at politicians or the Minister but at those who might be interested decentralising and who want to find out about an area. Therefore, the spectrum of quality is quite wide. We have to sell ourselves to the public on a daily basis, be it through elections or whatever else, and we know that the more information made available to people the better.
Regarding Carrick-on-Suir, tenders have already been invited for works.
The Minister might return to embankment.
I will have the particular location mentioned by the Deputy examined. The credit in this regard is due to the Chairman and the committee who raised this major issue last year. We have examined it, carried out assessments and will roll out a programme of bringing this in, starting with the most obvious ones which need immediate and urgent attention. It is right that the Office of Public Works should do something positive in this area.
I wish to raise the payment of rents by the Office of Public Works to owners of property. In the case of a Garda station payment of rents is not on a monthly basis by standing order, as it should be, and at times a couple of months can pass before payment is made. Does the Minister agree it would be proper to have a standing order to pay rent? Perhaps he will examine the procedure in the Office of Public Works.
I will certainly look at the issue. In the case of some of the smaller properties it may be a pensioner who is depending on the rent for income and I would not like to see rents paid in a haphazard manner, as the Deputy is indicating may happen. I would be anxious that rents would be paid on a regular basis. I will certainly look into it and if the Deputy has a specific property in mind I would be happy to get the information from him. We are in the process of implementing a whole new financial management system.
Very good. In regard to flood relief, the town of Fermoy in my constituency periodically gets flash foods. There was a procedure whereby the Department of the Environment and Local Government provided grant aid to a certain town in the south-east for the purchase of flow bars to stop flooding of the houses. In Fermoy the people will not be covered by insurance. Perhaps the Minister will look into it to see whether any aid can be provided to those living adjacent to the river. Has Fermoy been included as a location for a Garda barracks?
There are two important issues here with which I am familiar and which have been on the agenda for some time. On the flooding issue we are directly engaged with the county council and are beginning the process. We are trying to arrive at solutions. The Deputy can take it that that is part of the agenda and work programme of my office. The second issue which is equally part of the work programme of my office is the resolution of the particular difficulty in locating a site for the Garda station in Fermoy. The Deputy is referring to a particular property and a site which I looked at in the office today. We are trying to secure a property. A property has been identified but there are some title disputes with regard to the particular property. I am very anxious to see the situation resolved. I and my officials have done everything to resolve it. The prioritising of Garda stations is a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister concerned. He is also particularly anxious about Fermoy.
Yes, it is the headquarters for that region.
Yes.
I have two other short questions. I was looking at appropriations-in-aid where it is estimated that rental income will be down for this year. Subhead F.3 gives the estimated costs of services supplied to other Departments, including the Office of Public Works. In other words, you are providing a service to yourselves and paying yourselves.
We are renting properties. I rent properties for my own Department as well and I could have different Departments allocate the cost. I have Office of Public Works staff in rented accommodation also.
What about the reduction in appropriations-in-aid?
I will get the answer to that.
What about the rent?
It is for the purchase of buildings.
Fair enough.
Can the Minister of State say something about the President's household staff? I note a considerable increase there. Can he put something on the record as to review that is taking place and what type of staff we are talking about? Since we are talking about constituency issues, some work has recently been done on the Casino in Marino - has that work been completed? If the Minister of State is not familiar with it perhaps he would let me have a note on it.
I do not think we are doing anything - it comes under the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands.
It is being contracted out.
It is a project of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. If I have an answer I shall get it for the Deputy. I do not think we are directly responsible.
It is still an Office of Public Works building and is owned and managed by Office of Public Works.
No. It transferred——
It is certainly owned by the Department but I do not know whether it is operated by it.
It is a property of the Heritage Council. When the Department was changed that was one of the buildings which transferred to the Heritage Council. The current number of employees is 29. This compares with 20 previously. We have gone from seven full-time, six part-time back to five part-time, three specified purpose part-time contracts guaranteed 24 hours per week and nine on a stand-by panel.
We looked at the Áras which is an important property from all points of view and it was deemed, rightly so, that the set-up was not what was required in terms of staffing not for the President's personal use but the actual operation and running of the office. We took the initiative with the current President. I avail of this opportunity to commend her in this regard in that we opened it up to the public, to tour groups and so on even when she is present. This was a follow-on from the Office of Public Works which manages Government Buildings. We do not as yet manage Leinster House although we do Government Buildings very successfully. We approached the President saying there was a great public interest in the Áras and that we wished to have official tours and so on and she was very supportive. This necessitated extra staff and other things had to happen. That schools and young children should have access to that property is impressive from their point of view. This required looking at how we operated the Áras. We had to ensure the right balance was struck between the needs of thePresident and public access.
For some people who were part-time and now full-time will the increase——
We have reduced the part-time staff to five and we have increased the full-time staff from seven to 12 which is a fairly big increase. The main reason for this was that we changed the whole approach to the Áras. Instead of being locked away almost exclusively with no access other than to ambassadors or the President, we have changed the whole raison d’être of the place and I am pleased to say - and I hope members will agree - successfully. I have a view that all these buildings, including Leinster House, should have much greater public access in a modern world. These are important State properties and State buildings and they can be managed in a way, as the Office of Public Works has shown, that gives them greater access. In a modern Ireland, whether we need security at the Kildare Street gate or the Merrion Street gate is a big question. All those areas should be open to the public.
For the record, I fully agree with the Minister of State on that. There is an opportunity to create an open square on both sides of Leinster House.
As there are in many other parliaments. We have designed the new Leinster House project with all of that in mind, where there would almost be a throughput street effect from Merrion Street through to Kildare Street, provided we can do all the other things. That is why I am particularly anxious - I think all parties have supported this idea - to take all the car parking out of that area of Merrion Street and Kildare Street and put it all underground and open it up into the beautiful parkland and not to be grandiose but to allow real access to the public, which is done in many other countries. I hold the strong view that all of this should be given back to the people.
I support those remarks. I suggest that the Office of Public Works should take over Leinster House; I am sure it would not mind that responsibility.
When we discussed the Estimates two years ago I raised the issue of disabled access. I thank the Minister and his officials for providing such a huge Estimate. If I read it correctly it is now about £7.5 million for disabled access to both new and old buildings. Would the Minister give an update on the policy on access to and exits from these buildings because I have no doubt the new equal opportunity legislation will place an onus on the Department to provide accessible accommodation in many public offices both from a consumer and an employee point of view. Will he give a breakdown of the areas to which money is being provided, if that is possible? There seems to be a large increase in the amount of funding being provided. Also, will he give an update on the Tralee ship canal before we conclude?
I thank the Deputy. He can take credit for his direct commitment to this issue of disabled access. In fairness to him, he has raised it at every opportunity and has kept it at the centre of our attention also. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, budgets have increased and we are trying to push the boat out in a substantial way with Departments. It is not happening in a haphazard way, as it might appear. We are trying to do blocks of works together, particularly refurbishment of buildings, and certainly all new buildings have full access.
The breakdown of funding includes the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation in Fitzwilliam Square, the Department of Health and Children, Joyce House in Lombard Street, the Ballyfermot social welfare office in Rossmore Avenue, the Ballymun social welfare office in the Ballymun Shopping Centre, the ENFO office of the Department of the Environment and Local Government in Andrew Street in Dublin, the Ordnance Survey office in the Phoenix Park, further works at Dublin Castle - it is difficult at times to deal with buildings like Dublin Castle because of the conflict between the heritage of the building and ensuring access, but we are getting most of the work done, the Cavan social welfare office on the Dublin Road, the Wexford social welfare office, the Mallow social welfare office, the Drogheda social welfare office, the Department of Finance in Mount Street, Setanta House, Frederick Street, Lansdowne Road and other parts of Frederick Street. That is a flavour of the major programme we are involved in. Even in the three years since I first came before this committee we have added a fair amount of properties to that list and if Deputies want to raise others with us, I will try to get them done, within reason. If there is some particular difficulty in their area I would be delighted to hear about it and try to address it.
There is no wheelchair access to the social welfare office in Listowel. There is a new social welfare office, a type of PPP, in Listowel and the proprietor of the current one is providing new office accommodation but there is no wheelchair access to the existing office. The building was formerly a bank with very high steps into it and I have seen people in wheelchairs requiring assistance to get into the building.
If we can do that we will but this is not just a one year programme. This is a substantial rolling programme.
Of course. The people who are involved in this issue, the Wheelchair Association and so forth, should be advised on the progress the Office of Public Works is making in this respect because it is substantial and it should be recognised by the lobby groups that there is a programme, that money is being spent on it and that we are not just paying lip service to this issue. I think the Estimate two years ago was £1 million but it has increased to £7.5 million.
There are other works but in effect the budget has more than doubled in that time. I would make the point that I depend on individual Departments to give me their own priority lists. Obviously we try to augment those but I am very much in the hands of people in their own Departments as to what is urgently required.
On the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, Listowel is not on its priority list. Perhaps we will get it on the priority list. I do not have the staff to get all the information so I am dependent on other Departments giving me that information.
On the Tralee ship canal, the canal channel has been completed. The lifting bridge at Blennerville is not quite complete and the tender for restoration of the basin is about to go on site in the next two to four weeks.
I want to ask one final question and in a sense I was remiss in not raising it earlier because it is a major issue. Has the Department identified specific projects which would be suitable for PPPs or particular types of projects which might be suitable for PPPs? Obviously there is the design, build, operate and finance aspects of public-private partnerships. I am not quite sure how that mixes with the way the Office of Public Works has traditionally done its work.
It is new ground. The Deputy referred to "Department"——
I am talking about the Office of Public Works.
The new permanent accommodation for the asylum seekers is one I would see as a PPP. The decentralisation programme offers enormous opportunities for PPPs as well. It is new territory in a sense of how we construct it with the people with whom we will be directly involved. We have the experience of the design, build, finance aspects and we can go that step further in relation to PPP. The answer to the Deputy's question is "yes" in terms of the new build accommodation for asylum seekers and I would be astonished if we could not find a means of doing it on the decentralisation programme. In fact I am sure that we will.
Does the Minister of State wish to make a closing statement?
Not necessarily, Chairman. I hope the members are happy with the areas we have covered.
I support the comments of Deputy Deenihan and the Minister of State in congratulating the project management services on getting ISO 9002 accreditation. In one of my past experiences I gave out hundreds of those ISOs. I congratulate the Office of Public Works and wish it continued progress in that area.