SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 2004

Estimates for Public Services 2004.

Vote 16 — Public Appointments Service (Supplementary).

Vote 39 — Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments (Additional).

Chairman

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider two Estimates referred to the select committee yesterday by the Dáil — a Supplementary Estimate in respect of Vote 16 — Public Appointments Service and an additional Estimate in respect of Vote 39 — Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments. The committee is required by order of the Dáil to report the completion of its consideration of the Estimates by tomorrow, 14 October. I thank the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, and his officials for attending.

Before I ask the Minister of State to make an opening statement, I draw members' attention to the fact that the debate on the Civil Service Regulation (Amendment) Bill is due to commence in the Dáil at 3.45 p.m. I hope, therefore, that we will be able to complete our business speedily. In the event that we must suspend the sitting, we can come back to this room at 5.30 p.m. but I hope that will not be necessary.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Parlon)

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to consider these two Estimates which are required, essentially, for technical reasons. The Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Act 2004 provides for the establishment of two new bodies to replace the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners — the Commission for Public Service Appointments and the Public Appointments Service. The Estimates before the committee will provide funding for these bodies.

The Supplementary Estimate provides that the Public Appointments Service can be funded from Vote 16 which was considered by the committee on 30 March this year. A token Supplementary Estimate is being taken as I am seeking the approval of members to amend the title and ambit of Vote 16 in order that it can be used to fund the Public Appointments Service — which is replacing the Civil Service Commission in respect of its function to conduct competitions. An additional Estimate is proposed in order that the Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments, which is replacing the Civil Service Commission in respect of its other functions, can be funded from its own separate Vote. No additional money or staff is being provided for the new bodies; the staff and the funds which were voted to the Office of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners are being divided between the new bodies. Accordingly, there is no additional burden on the Exchequer and the Supplementary and Additional Estimates are being proposed now in order that these bodies may function on the day on which they are established.

Recruitment to the Civil Service and the Garda Síochána is carried out by the Civil Service Commissioners and recruitment to senior posts in the local authorities and the health boards is carried out by the Local Appointments Commissioners. The Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Act repeals the Civil Service Commissioners Act and amends the legislation relating to the Local Appointments Commissioners. The Act will offer regulated bodies the opportunity to recruit directly, without the requirement to use a centralised agency. The Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments will become, in time, the sole regulator for public service recruitment. The commission will set standards for recruitment to the civil and public service and will monitor compliance with those standards.

Public service bodies regulated by the commission will be allowed to undertake their own recruitment under licence issued by the commission. However, if such bodies prefer to use the service of a centralised agency, that option will be available to them in the form of the Public Appointments Service. The Public Appointments Service will perform recruitment for those public service bodies which are regulated by the Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments but which do not wish to recruit directly or which have not been licensed to recruit by the commission.

This structure offers an enhanced flexibility to Departments and offices which are now obliged to use the Office of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners to recruit staff. Section 6 of the Act permits the Minister for Finance to make orders which will extend the application of the Act beyond the appointments which were subject to the remit of the Office of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners. It is the Minister's intention to ensure that, in time, the overwhelming majority of public service posts will be subject to regulation by the Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments. Given that the functions of the regulation of recruitment and the provision of a recruitment service are incompatible, it is necessary to have each function performed by a distinct body. This is the reason for the establishment of two organisations to replace the Office of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners.

Mr. R. Bruton

This is not the place to reiterate my concerns about this structure, however I will briefly deal with the issue. There are many who fear that the combination of the decentralisation or relocation plan for Departments together with devolved recruitment will be a radical change in the entry levels and the approach to recruitment and promotion in the public service. There is corporate commitment to and a very strong record of general recruitment in the public service. There are also serious concerns about moving to a position of predominantly local recruitment approaches in decentralised locations to what are essentially national mandates. There are real worries that this track has not been well thought out. The Secretaries General examined this issue and came out in favour of the existing system and recommended against devolved recruitment. No subsequent White Paper issued from Government before it decided to opt for devolved recruitment. I am sure the Minister of State will confirm that partnership discussions took place, but the Dáil, which is ultimately responsible for decisions, was not a partner to it.

This is a flaw in the approach. If the human resource units in the public service were well developed, we could feel a degree of confidence in this approach, but the trenchant criticisms of the weaknesses in the human resource policy in the reviews of the strategic management initiative — Deputy Finneran has taken an interest in it — highlights the very poor tradition of the devolution of power and holding people accountable for results. Generally the management levels have lacked the professionalism that is expected in human resource departments. We would have liked to see a serious effort to address these weaknesses in human resource management at central level instead of the system, warts and all, being devolved to a local level. I have concerns about that. The onus is on Government which is proposing such a radical change to produce the White Paper that shows it has anticipated the problems and is addressing the evident weaknesses in human resource policy in the public service. Antiquated practices, such as confining promotions to very limited ranges of people and to within Departments, so that personnel cannot be recruited from outside the Department, are not appropriate in the modern context. We are being asked to accept this without serious attention being given to the issue.

Vote 16 refers to the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners, but the Minister of State did not refer to the existing allocation of the Local Appointments Commissions and whether its resources are being assigned and divided between the proposed Office of the Commission for Public Service Appointments and the Public Appointments Service.

The Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners have done an excellent job and are beyond reproach. There may have been questions about the speed of response but those are issues that should have been resolved internally rather than dismantling the body. If we are to take the route of devolved recruitment, will the staff complement of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners be slimmed down? I am surprised that there was no indication of what was intended in the presentation by the Minister of State. If the staff complement is retained centrally but fewer staff recruited by them, then as night follows day, the cost of public service recruitment will soar. The position must be clarified.

The stop-go nature of public service recruitment has dogged the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners. With the freeze on recruitment, the staff complement went down last year from 182 to 155 staff. The level of activity waxes and wanes but it would be interesting to see the predictions for the budget in 2005 to maintain the continuing operation of the service. It is all very well to say it is a token Estimate but members deserve some indication of the long-term implications. The Progressive Democrats Party is very keen on multi-annual Estimates and I would have expected the Minister of State's presentation to include projections of what the new bodies replacing the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissioners would cost. I do not propose to oppose the Supplementary Estimate, however, I have misgiving about the approach that has been taken.

Ms Burton

I opposed a number of sections of the Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Bill when it was discussed in the Dáil on the grounds that I feared the implication for the integrity and efficiency of the public service. However, given the Government's majority, the Bill was passed.

This is a historic step in terms of the Irish public service, where after independence a centralised system of recruitment to public service jobs was created in order to avoid the excessive amount of placements, pleadings, etc., which took place in Civil Service appointments immediately after independence. I hope that the devolution of the recruitment function now under way is transparent and open and is operated to the highest standards.

The Minister of State stated that "Public service bodies regulated by the Commission will be allowed to undertake their own recruitment under licence issued by the Commission." That much is known. He went on to state: "However, if such bodies prefer to use the service of a centralised agency, that option will be available to them in the form of the Public Appointments Service." That is a considerable change in tone from what was presented to us as the Government's thinking on the matter in the course of the debate on the Bill. I was left with the impression from the debate on the Bill, that particularly with regard to large-scale recruitment for general grades, the use of the specialised services of the Public Appointments Service would be the norm rather than the exception.

In the case of local authorities recruiting people like engineers, and probably in the case of smaller public service bodies who recruit experts or people with technical qualifications, we all know that there can be problems and under the old systems there could be much delay in recruitment. However, the hallmark of competitions for the general recruitment of different grades such as clerical officers and gardaí has been the view that those who applied were going into an open recruitment process. It would seem from the Minister of State's remarks that his expectation is that in future most recruitment will be done directly by the departmental heads as well as by the individual agencies and bodies like local authorities. I am fearful about that because it cuts to the core of the debate we had about people's confidence in the openness, fairness and integrity of the process. Will the Minister of State elaborate on this aspect? Does he expect that in future most recruitment will be accomplished through direct recruitment by the departmental agency heads, as they are empowered to do under the new Act?

In that context, in the course of the debate the Minister of State stated that there would be codes of best practice which the Public Appointments Service would oversee to some extent. When one runs this together with decentralisation, we come back to the question that if, for instance, the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism is in County Kerry, can the recruitment be done directly in the future by the Secretary General of that Department? We are concerned that applicants living in Kerry would have the best chance with that kind of devolved recruitment.

Have the standards and codes to which the Minister of State referred been put in place? The codes of particular importance relate to issues like advertising. In this devolved system, how are people to know about the availability of these posts? In the past the Civil Service Appointments Commission has worked on panels. For instance, the OPW has worked on panels which have expired within a set timeframe and if people on the panel are not called, then they apply to the competition for the next panel. Have all these important issues gone into the melting pot?

The Minister of State might say that during the Celtic tiger years the difficulty was in recruiting anybody at all. I recognise that that was part of the problem, but I am concerned about the impact of this. Are the best practice codes, to which the Minister of State referred in the debate on the Bill, now available? Will they be widely circulated and subject to advertising so that parents who have a son or daughter interested in applying to the Garda Síochána can have some confidence in understanding that the recruitment system has the same level of integrity in the future as it has had to date?

As this is such a major change, does the Minister of State propose creating a forum for heads of Departments, agencies and bodies, particularly those which are devolved, to learn how the new system functions with the primary objective of maintaining public confidence in the integrity, transparency and fairness of the process of recruitment to public jobs?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I wish to record that I will support the Opposition on the Supplementary Estimate and the additional Vote. My question is allied to that of Deputy Burton. I also focused on the paragraph of the Minister of State's speech, where it states that the Public Appointments Service will seek recruitment for those bodies regulated by the Commission for Public Service Appointments who do not have a licence to recruit directly or who do not wish to recruit directly. Can the Minister of State give us examples of where they might expect that latter option might be exercised?

Mr. Finneran

I welcome the opportunity of making a contribution and I welcome the Minister of State to the committee. I understand the thinking behind it. Indeed, this has been flagged for some time and we knew of it being presented here.

I want to mention the area of the local authorities and health boards. I refer, in particular, to the fall-out from, and the public perception of, Better Local Government. The fall-out from Better Local Government is a matter of national debate in so far as it brought very few new people into the system. In fact, I do not know whether it brought any new people into the system from outside of the existing local authority system. That was a great cause of concern to many of us who felt that Better Local Government would be an opportunity for the advancement of new ideas and new people and to bring fresh thinking in the local authority system. Instead, we found a situation where people who held positions in the same local authority in many cases got a new label and a new salary, with the result that there were five county managers instead of one, without any great new thinking. If, in the future, we are to give people in the public service and Civil Service an opportunity to bring forward their expertise, the type of arrangement which operated on that occasion should not operate again.

The system of recruitment for local authorities and the health boards would seem to be a merry-go-round, in that a person has a 95% chance of moving from one local authority or health board to another or moving internally within a local authority or health board. It seems to be a closed shop. While this is not written into law or in regulation, I am informing the Minister of State of the fall-out from the interview system under Better Local Government throughout the local authority and health board systems. It may be a matter for another day, but it would be helpful if the Minister could comment on future arrangements.

Mr. Nolan

In support of the point made by my colleague, Deputy Finneran, a number of individuals seek appointment to senior positions, such as county manager, in smaller local authorities, such as Carlow and uses it as a stepping stone to better things. In Carlow County Council we do not have continuity of personnel and staff who secure senior positions see it merely as a stepping stone to somewhere else. I do not know how one could address this problem, however, a seven year contract goes some way to dealing with it. Individuals on the way to better things will find that five years into a contract they should be moving on in order to get another seven years somewhere else. Perhaps the officials would examine ways to improve or fine-tune recruitment for smaller local authorities.

Mr. N. O’Keeffe

I welcome Deputy Paddy McHugh to the committee. I congratulate the Minister of State at the Department of Finance on surviving the reshuffle. It was a great feat to survive in the very crowded pitch of Laoighis-Offaly, the constituency from which the Chairman comes.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Fine Gael Party reshuffled.

Mr. N. O’Keeffe

There is no car or perks for anyone in the Fine Gael Party. Life in politics is about margin.

Is it possible that decentralisation will offer flexibility to staff in a local authority or health board who have the equivalent status of staff officer or assistant principal officer to transfer to a comparable job in a State or semi-State organisation? I have had representations from people who would move across the public sector, if there were flexibility to do so and, from staff of State or semi-State bodies in Dublin who would transfer to a local authority, if that were an option. We must have more flexibility in the Civil Service and public service. If decentralisation is to work the Government must put in place a mechanism to facilitate staff who wish to transfer or share responsibilities. The status and salary scales of staff can be defined. Will the Minister reply to that suggestion and, if not, will he raise it at Cabinet?

Mr. Parlon

In general the indication is that members are supportive. I congratulate Deputy Richard Bruton on his appointment to the shadow Cabinet. In spite of not having the car yet it is good that he is spokesperson for finance as it would not be the same without him. He raised the issue of confined promotional opportunities. The Government programme Sustaining Progress provides for increased open recruitment. Staff numbers will not be reduced but it is open to review. If independent or private recruitment firms are retained to a greater extent, the numbers will be reviewed as has happened with the reduction in staff from 182 to 155 in the past two years. It is proposed that 149 staff will be involved in the recruitment side and six will deal with the regulation. Let me correct the assertion by Deputy Bruton that the group of Secretaries General had some difficulty with the recommendation in the Bill, because they wholly endorsed it.

Mr. R. Bruton

To what report is the Minister of State referring?

Mr. Parlon

The Secretaries General as a result of their general forum meeting have recommended in their policy papers the changes that——

Mr. R. Bruton

The only policy paper I have read stated very directly that they considered this and ruled it out. Perhaps they reconsidered it. Will the Minister of State send me a copy of the report to which he refers?

Mr. Parlon

We debated this. As the Deputy stated at the outset, this is not the forum to debate the issues of the Bill. This came up time and again when the Bill was discussed in committee and in the House.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Minister of State never presented a report from the Secretaries General constituting an assessment of these proposals. What was presented was the Government's view that this was a good thing.

Mr. Parlon

As a result of the forum meetings under the strategic management initiative, they recommended generally what is proposed in the Bill.

Ms Burton

We did not get them and perhaps the Minister of State will send them to us.

Mr. Parlon

To respond to Deputy Burton, who raised the issue of transparency and openness, we have gone to great lengths to ensure probity. I have no view, whether people will opt for private or central recruitment. That will be a decision for Secretaries Generals to take. I am sure people will need a very good reason to change from the status quo. The Act offers enhanced flexibility in recruitment to Departments and offices. There is a cost involved if they choose to recruit locally or privately. The Deputy asked if there will be a forum for Secretaries General who are in decentralised Departments. The Secretaries General meet on a regular basis under the strategic management initiative. As recently as last week they met in the provinces and they will continue to meet on a regular basis, regardless of where they are based. Some of the Opposition Deputies suggested they may be sent to the wilds of Kerry. Kerry people have established themselves in the Civil Service in spite of what might appear to them to be a Dublin bias. I hope that if there is localised recruitment in Killarney, Dublin people would not be biased.

Ms Burton

The Minister of State indicated in the course of the passage of the Bill through the Houses that codes of practice will be in place. Kerry people in Dublin have most of the jobs in the Civil Service and as far as I know they run it. I hope that Dublin people and people from Roscommon will be as successful in Kerry. That would be wonderful. I asked if the codes of practice, to which the Minister of State referred, were published and available.

Mr. Parlon

The draft codes of practice will be put before the commission for decision on its first day and then will be published. In response to Deputy Ó Caoláin, who asked who might wish to recruit directly——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Who would not wish to recruit directly, having been already licensed to do so and then go back to the commission?

Mr. Parlon

I suspect that the large recruitment offices such as the Revenue, which is recruiting centrally in Dublin and has recruited in the past, and which would have a panel already, would continue to do so. The Bill offers the flexibility to a Department to decide to recruit otherwise.

Deputy Finneran referred to the recruitment in local authorities. That is a matter outside of our remit. The Minister reserves the right to extend the legislation to cover local authorities in the future. I expect that that will be rolled out.

I empathise fully with Deputy Nolan and also with the Chairman. I do not know whether County Laois is much further up the pecking order than County Carlow. People move on, which does not allow for a great degree of continuity. Changing that is outside our authority but it is a matter we must address. It does not help when people see a post as a first step and then move up along the way. The point the Deputy made was important.

Deputy O'Keeffe spoke of flexibility for staff to transfer between the State agencies, local authorities and the Civil Service. That is a good idea. It is something to which we should aspire and is being considered by the implementation committee dealing with decentralisation. There are some difficulties, in that currently all of the different recruitment pools are negotiated with the unions and the unions guard their own particular areas strongly. The Deputy will note from the different representations that have been made that SIPTU, which generally represents the State agencies, has a particular point of view, as do some of the other public service unions.

That would be an ideal situation for the future. It will take some sensitive negotiations to reach consensus, but we should work towards that scenario.

Deputy N. O’Keeffe

I thank the Minister of State for taking note of what I have said. I received requests from people in those unions. Some of the unions operate in the Civil Service as much as in the local authorities and health boards. The unions must be aware. Union officials are flexible people and they have a great understanding of personnel issues. I welcome the Minister of State's commitment and I hope that he will put it in place.