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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 24 Nov 2004

Double Taxation Conventions: Ministerial Presentation.

I welcome Deputy Cregan as a new member of the committee. He is attending his first meeting this morning.

The only item on today's agenda is the proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of double taxation conventions between Ireland and the Republic of Iceland, the Hellenic Republic and Canada. In case people were wondering where in the world it is, the Hellenic Republic is Greece.

On 16 November the Dáil referred to the select committee the proposal that Dáil Éireann approve the following orders in draft: Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income and Capital) (Republic of Iceland) Order 2004, Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income and Capital Gains) (Government of the Hellenic Republic) Order 2004 and Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income and Capital Gains) (Government of Canada) Order 2004. The committee will now proceed to consider these proposals.

I thank the Minister of State for attending and invite him to make a brief opening statement on the double taxation agreements.

The purpose of the meeting is to introduce three draft orders, each dealing with a new double taxation convention and to provide the committee with whatever assistance we can in this regard.

The double taxation conventions we are discussing are between Ireland and Canada, Greece and Iceland, respectively. Before turning to each in detail I wish to say a few words in general about double taxation conventions.

The main purpose of a double taxation convention is to avoid taxation of the same income or gains in both countries without any relief given in the other country. Double taxation conventions achieve this object by either allocating exclusive taxing rights to one or other country for particular items of income or gains, or, where both countries wish to retain taxing rights, by requiring the country where the taxpayer is resident to grant credit against its tax for the tax paid in the other country.

Double taxation conventions are generally comprehensive in scope and in the main follow the OECD model tax convention. They apply to taxes on income and capital gains imposed by each country. In the case of Ireland, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners with its relevant counterparts in the overseas jurisdictions negotiate all our conventions. Ireland currently has 42 double taxation conventions in place and in recent years we have been actively seeking to expand and modernise our treaty network, thus facilitating overall economic activity.

On the procedures, I will outline briefly what has taken place in the case of the three conventions before us today. During 2003, the Government signed all three new double taxation conventions. The Canadian convention was signed on 8 October 2003. When it comes into force, it will replace the existing convention with Canada, which has been in force since 1966. The Greek convention was signed on 24 November 2003 and the Icelandic convention was signed on 17 December 2003. Ireland has not had double taxation conventions with Greece and Iceland and the recently signed conventions are welcome additions to our treaty network.

Once the conventions are signed both parties must ratify them in accordance to their own rules of procedure. Today represents an important moment in our ratification process. Once ratified by both parties the convention comes into force on 1 January of the year following the year of ratification. In the case of these three conventions, this should be 1 January 2005, although this will depend on progress made by our three partners.

Draft Government orders confirming and giving force of law in Ireland to the conventions were laid before Dáil Éireann on 2 November 2004 in accordance with the provisions of section 826 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. A resolution by Dáil Éireann approving the draft orders is required before the Government can make the orders. The proposal that Dáil Éireann approve the orders has been referred to this committee for consideration.

I refer to the existing conventions. The existing convention with Canada has been in force since 1968 and is one of Ireland's oldest double taxation agreements. The new convention modernises the current agreement between Ireland and Canada and better reflects the current tax policies of both countries, as well as incorporating changes that have been made in the OECD model tax convention. This is a significant development as substantial trading and investment links exist between Ireland and Canada. Putting in place a modern tax treaty is an important contribution to the maintenance and development of these economic relations.

The conclusion of a tax treaty with Greece is very important in the context of Ireland's EU relations as Greece is one of the last EU countries with which Ireland does not currently have a double taxation agreement. The new convention is expected to have a positive impact on trade and investment between both countries. I am particularly pleased to bring forward this convention as negotiations for a double taxation convention with Greece have been ongoing for several years.

Iceland is a member of the European Economic Area, EEA, and the convention with Iceland complements existing tax agreements that Ireland has with other EEA members, including Norway and Switzerland. It is expected that the convention with Iceland will have a positive impact on trade and investment between Ireland and Iceland by substantially reducing fiscal obstacles. Although trade between our two countries is small in the overall context, given Iceland's membership of the EEA and the OECD, it is appropriate at this stage for this agreement to be brought forward.

In general terms, all of these conventions provide for reduced source country taxation of dividends, interest and royalties. In other words, a rate of tax lower than what currently exists will be applied once the conventions are in place. This will significantly reduce fiscal barriers to investment flows between Ireland and each of the countries concerned.

Other provisions of the conventions deal with, inter alia, the taxation of business profits earned by an enterprise of one country in the other, employment income earned by individuals resident in one country and working in the other and pensions paid from pension plans in one country to individuals resident in the other.

Other important articles in the conventions include the non-discrimination provisions, which protect nationals of each country from discriminatory tax provisions in the other country and the exchange of information provisions necessary to counter tax evasion. All the main Departments have been consulted and none has expressed any dissatisfaction with the terms of the various conventions.

I therefore commend to this committee these important new additions to Ireland's network of double taxation agreements. I am happy to discuss the various issues that may arise in respect of any of the conventions in more detail.

I thank the Minister of State for his explanation. Can he state the benefit to the ordinary man living in counties Laois or Offaly of a double taxation agreement with Canada or Greece? Is there any advantage or is such an agreement of benefit only to international business?

Is there any loss of revenue to the Exchequer by virtue of these double taxation agreements? Will we be taking in less tax from companies that are trading between Ireland and another party to a convention?

The Minister of State mentioned freeing up of investment opportunities between Ireland and Canada, for example. Are there restrictions on where EU members, including Irish people, can invest outside the EU?

As I stated, the convention is designed to avoid taxation of the same income or gains in both countries. I do not know how many of my constituents reside in Canada. I know some have emigrated there and that some of Deputy Paul McGrath's constituents have given detailed interviews in public on their decision to quit his constituency and set up business in Canada. There are certainly links and very substantial trade links between the two countries. I am sure Canadian people have established homes and businesses in Ireland and this will serve to strike a balance. Canada may not be the most obvious example in this regard, but many Irish citizens now have holiday homes and other residences in two different countries.

The conventions will certainly be a major aid to business and reduce the fiscal penalties that might exist otherwise, by which people could find themselves taxed on the double.

On the question of Ireland losing revenue, the benefit will accrue to the country where the taxpayer is resident. It will be expected to grant credit on the tax paid in another country. It will be a matter of swings and roundabouts. The provision is fair and avoids double taxation. It establishes a formal means of dealing with the issue and it is based on the OECD model of taxation agreed between all the countries in the OECD.

Can the Minister respond to my question on investment outside the EU?

Is the Deputy speaking about private investments or business investments.

I refer to business investments and investments in holiday homes or a second home. If I wanted to buy a farm in Canada — this is becoming popular — would I be entitled to move my money without restriction between Ireland, as an EU country, and Canada?

As I understand it, the Deputy is. He can invest wherever he wishes.

On the Hellenic convention, what is the current position on Cyprus, particularly northern Cyprus, and Turkey?

I am advised that there is a convention between Ireland and Cyprus and that it is up for renegotiation, as was the case regarding the Canadian convention. It covers only the Greek Cypriot part of the island.

What is the situation as regards Turkey?

We are negotiating a double taxation agreement and hope to bring forward recommendations in 2005.

Are the Minister of State and his officials aware of the concerns about the use of northern Cyprus for certain banking, financial and other transactions?

They will be taken into account in the agreement we reach with Turkey.

Does the Minister of State have a view on the concerns about how northern Cyprus has been used? Cases in Ireland dealt with in the tribunals involved the use of bank accounts in northern Cyprus.

This convention deals with double taxation; it does not provide for legislation to deal with illegal tax havens.

Mr. McCreevy was fond of pointing out — correctly — that in various Finance Acts he had given greater powers to the Revenue Commissioners. In double taxation agreements the Revenue Commissioners have acquired powers that apply to overseas subsidiaries in bank investigations. Is that not the case in these discussions? Otherwise that would be a change of policy.

We are talking specifically about double taxation agreements.

That is what I am talking about.

Turkish construction companies are working here at present. That is why we are setting up an agreement with Turkey. The arrangement will lay out the procedures to avoid a double taxation system and put it in place in order that people who reside in Turkey post-convention will not be penalised.

I am asking about the powers acquired by the Revenue Commissioners that have been important in the context of the 18 court orders and 25 financial institutions which have been investigated by them. They extend to the overseas subsidiaries of those Irish financial institutions. What is the status as regards double taxation agreements? The Minister of State is suggesting there has been a change from what the former Minister for Finance outlined.

The Minister of State is not suggesting any such thing; the Deputy is attempting to put words into the Minister of State's mouth again by raising an issue that is entirely irrelevant to this matter.

No. The Minister of State was president of the Irish Farmers' Association. He must remember the controversy about the use of northern Cyprus as a haven for bank accounts.

I do not. Perhaps the Deputy will remind me of a particular instance.

I do not know; perhaps the Minister of State's constituency colleague would have a better memory of it.

The Deputy is the one who raised it.

It was very important to Irish farmers.

In what context? I genuinely do not remember.

Does the Minister of State think that what happened at the beef tribunal was not important to Irish farmers?

I do not remember any context that involved northern Cyprus.

God almighty. The Minister of State should go back and read the evidence.

Perhaps the Deputy will remind me. Is she talking about a specific incident?

What is it?

The Minister of State should ask his officials. I will ask them for a briefing note.

There is a major Turkish construction company operating in the State at present involved in a series of PPPs and that company has been controversial at times. I would like to know about the double taxation arrangements in Turkey and northern Cyprus. That is not an unreasonable question.

The Deputy is only asking that now. What has this to do with the previous point?

Because there is a Hellenic double taxation agreement and it is perfectly reasonable to ask what happened. What is the status of the Revenue powers acquired in new double taxation agreements and the inquiries it can now make into overseas bank accounts?

Of Irish subsidiaries.

Can the Minister of State send a written response?

We are at an advanced stage of drafting an agreement with Turkey. Northern Cyprus and the sensitive political theme there will be taken into account. We will make any information available to the Deputy as soon as we have it. Currently there is no convention with Turkey. We are drafting one and I cannot say at this stage how it will apply to northern Cyprus.

Surely that should be an integral part of the negotiations.

Of course but I am only dealing with present agreements. If there are specific questions about companies in northern Cyprus, the Deputy should ask them.

I asked a specific question about policy. I do not understand why the Minister of State is so offended by this; it is a reasonable question.

I am not offended by it, rather I am amused by it. The Deputy seems to have some notion in the back of her mind that there was something going on but has no information on it.

The Minister of State's officials will be able to advise him in detail when he has time. It is not my job to do his work.

Is it the case that the Deputy does not remember or is not prepared to give the information?

I remember perfectly. I am sure Deputy Finneran also remembers.

I do not see what the big mystery is then.

How many countries are involved in double taxation agreements with us?

There are 42 countries involved in such agreements.

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