SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Thursday, 30 Nov 2006

Vote 18 — Office of the Ombudsman (Supplementary).

Chairman

We are in public session. I understand the Committee of Public Accounts is meeting simultaneously. Deputy McGuinness, Deputy Burton and I are also members of the Committee of Public Accounts. Having attended the beginning of this meeting, Deputies McGuinness and Burton must leave to resume their activities in the Committee of Public Accounts.

The purpose of this meeting is as follows. On 29 November the Dáil ordered that the following Supplementary Estimates be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 1 — President's Establishment, and Vote 18 — Office of the Ombudsman.

I thank the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, and his officials for their attendance to assist the committee's considerations of the Supplementary Estimates. Before we proceed, a draft timetable was circulated. I propose to adhere to it although we may not use all the time allocated because there are no major items for discussion in respect of these Supplementary Estimates. I call on the Minister of State to make a brief opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Parlon)

I thank the committee for allowing me to present for its consideration two Supplementary Estimates that arise on the Finance group of Votes. The first Supplementary Estimate relates to Vote 1 — President's Establishment. A Supplementary Estimate of €450,000 is sought on this Vote. The additional funding is required due to the increased cost in 2006 of the centenarian's bounty, which comes under subhead B. This arises from the Government decision of April 2006 to extend the bounty to Irish citizens who were born on the island of Ireland, who now live abroad and who have reached the age of 100 years or more. At present, the bounty stands at €2,540.

The second Vote is Vote 18 — Office of the Ombudsman. This Vote requires a token Supplementary Estimate of €1,000. Its purpose is to change the ambit of Vote 18 to allow the office to incur expenditure arising from the proposed new functions to be assigned to the Information Commissioner under the draft European Communities (Access to Information on the Environment) Regulations 2006.

These regulations provide for an appeal mechanism by establishing an office of the commissioner for environmental information and assigning the role of commissioner for the new service to the holder of the Office of the Information Commissioner, which is already established under the Freedom of Information Act 1997 and the Freedom of Information (Amendment) Act 2003.

I thank the committee members for their attention. I will do my best to deal with any questions that members may wish to ask.

Mr. Bruton

The Estimates speak for themselves. It is great to see some longevity, so three cheers for that. I have no significant contribution to make.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I seek clarification from the Minister of State regarding the Vote 1 proposition referring to the centenarian's bounty. As of April 2006, its extension refers to Irish citizens who were born on the island of Ireland and who now live abroad. I presume that Irish citizens who were born on the island of Ireland and who still live on the island of Ireland are universally included in the bounty payment. Can he clarify the historic and current position as a result of the April 2006 change, in respect of those who were born on the island of Ireland, have lived for either the greater part of their lives or currently in the north east of the island of Ireland, in the Six Counties, and who I understand have not been recipients of the actual bounty payment? Can the Minister of State clarify the historic position, as well as the consequences of the decision of April 2006? Is it intended to apply the payment of the bounty retrospectively for the year 2006 or previously, with regard to any Irish citizen in the North of Ireland? A number of such citizens have received the President's letter, but not her cheque. I may have further questions regarding this matter.

Mr. Parlon

I am delighted to offer some clarification. In April 2006, the Government agreed to extend the eligibility criteria for the centenarian's bounty to all citizens who were born on the island of Ireland, are living abroad and have reached 100 years or more. Applications in respect of eligible persons living outside the State are managed by the Department of Foreign Affairs, which also advises on the appropriate channel for payment. Applications must be accompanied by documentation that confirms the age, place of birth, the Irish citizenship and identity of the claimant. Suitable documentation includes the claimant's birth certificate, or Irish passport, or both. Individual Irish diplomatic consular staff have discretion in determining the nature of the documentation required.

Since the State did not come into being until 1922, the working party group established to agree the modalities of the revised scheme, which was chaired by the Department of the Taoiseach, considered that for practical and political reasons, it should be open to any citizen born on the island of Ireland to apply for payment of the bounty on reaching 100 years. This means that people born in Northern Ireland would be eligible, regardless of whether they had moved to another country or still lived in Northern Ireland. This will also be in line with section 3 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004, whereby every person born on the island of Ireland is entitled to be an Irish citizen, subject to certain requirements in respect of the status of the parents at the time of birth.

In terms of numbers, 43 of the 150 people living outside of Ireland are from the North of Ireland.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Can the Minister of State clarify whether this number of people to whom he refers are those who now qualify as a result of the new arrangement as of April 2006? From when does the extension actually kick in? Is it from the date of adoption in April, is it for the calendar year 2006, or, as I believe should be the case, is anyone now entitled to it who has reached 100 years or more, is living on the island of Ireland and has not been a recipient of the President's bounty?

I know of a lady in County Derry who received a letter of congratulations from the President earlier this year on attaining her 100th birthday. However, there was no payment and the lady has since passed away. Will such a payment now issue to her estate? I ask the Minister of State to clarify the position in this respect.

Mr. Parlon

The modalities in this area only extend since April 2006. They apply to anyone born on the island of Ireland, regardless of where he or she resides. Moreover, it only applies to people who are alive on their 100th birthday, or thereafter. I understand the oldest individual lives in the North of Ireland. I believe she is heading for, hopefully, her 107th birthday and resides in Belfast. While I do not want to make light of this issue, I inquired as to the eligibility criteria and one must be alive on one's 100th birthday to qualify.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Of course. However, in the case I cited, the lady in question was alive on her 100th birthday. She has died since and did not receive the payment earlier this year. Will a payment now issue to her estate as she was alive on the attainment of her 100th birthday, received a letter from the President but, regrettably, did not receive the bounty?

Mr. Parlon

I am advised her estate will not benefit from the payment.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

In this instance, I believe the lady attained her 100th birthday. While I cannot be certain of the date, it may have been after the April decision. Does this change the Minister of State's answer?

Mr. Parlon

In respect of people in the North of Ireland, their families, doctors or someone involved with them who is aware of the payment, advise the State. The State may not have the full information, through the Department of Social and Family Affairs, to know exactly how many people are eligible. It is up to people to make this known to the State authorities.

However, I am advised we may be obliged to reconsider that situation. Hopefully, as a result of the committee's approval of this Vote, we will have the wherewithal, now and in the future, to have sufficient funding and the requisite administration to identify everyone who is eligible. In respect of the timing of the letter of congratulations and the letter of payment, I am not sure whether they are deemed to be at the same time. I am advised that in this case, we believe the letter issued in advance of the rules being changed. Generally, the letter and the cheque would arrive at the same time.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I will not take up any more time with this, but I have two small points to make. In respect of specific inquiries, and I will follow up on the case, where does the Minister of State suggest I direct them? I presume they should not be directed to the President.

Does the Minister of State agree that it was most strange and vexatious that a distinction was drawn between Irish citizens reaching their 100th year on one part of this island as opposed to the other, given that when they were all born 100 years ago, this island was a single entity and partition had not been forced on the people? They should all have been treated in the same fashion and this is how it should be in the future.

Mr. Parlon

The decision taken by the Government in April 2006 to extend the payment to the current extent was very generous. If the Deputy recalls, the President's payment was previously £100. In the centenary year, the Government decided to make it into a payment of £2,000. Hence, we have the payment of €2,540.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It was the millennium year.

Mr. Parlon

It was the millennium year. It was obviously extended to the island of Ireland. Rather than picking holes in the situation, if the Deputy wishes to direct that particular instance to me, I will seek to resolve it. It is clearly an exceptional incident in that the letter passed between the time the decision was taken and the decision to send the cheque——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I will revert to the Minister of State. In my view, matters such as this do not involve picking.

Mr. Parlon

In respect of this case, I must direct the Deputy. If he comes up with other cases, I will have to direct him to a different area.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I hope it does not happen in the Chairman's case either.

Mr. Parlon

In respect of the vexatiousness of it, I hope the lady in question did not suffer to any great degree.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We have no way of knowing because she has gone to her eternal reward.

Mr. Parlon

May the Lord rest her.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I cannot elicit a response for the Minister of State.

Ms C. Murphy

The fact that 85% of recipients were women again clearly demonstrates that the survival rate is better. Obviously, the ones that are——

Mr. P. McGrath

That is because of an easier life.

Ms C. Murphy

I do not know the cause of it.

Mr. Parlon

It is because most of them stayed out of politics.

Ms C. Murphy

Perhaps that is the reason. I wonder if this influences things. Clearly, the outturn of €880,000 is significantly more than was projected, otherwise we would not be talking about it here. While it is possible to anticipate those living in the State who will reach the age of 100, how can one possibly project the lifespan of people living outside the State? Is there a way of doing this?

I also presume that in respect of a small number in one year or a period of ten years, there may be some useful research on the life chances one has, depending on where one lives, which is derived from the data collected on this particular bounty. My question relates to how one could make such a projection? Presumably, the only ones who must apply for it are people living outside the State as people in the State who reach the age of 100 are automatically paid, which I believe was always the case. Is this true?

Mr. Parlon

The previous figure of €430,000 was for people born and living within the State. The decision to extend it to people born within the island of Ireland but who are living outside it accounts for the extra €450,000. In terms of forecasting that, the office of the Secretary General to the President has obtained some information from the Department of Social and Family Affairs quantifying the numbers of people in receipt of pensions. However, this does not represent the exhaustive list of qualifying centenarians as it does not identify those people who have not qualified for a pension from that Department. In 2003, for example, 23 persons not in receipt of a pension from the State were paid the bounty. In such instances, the office is normally notified, as I said earlier, by a family member, relative or local clergyman. Obviously, the Department of Social and Family Affairs must verify this information.

In terms of extrapolating that information from births in the period between 1905 and 1921, the CSO has advised on the potential numbers of those who live to their 100th birthday in the period between 2005 and 2021. On an actuarial basis, it is estimated that those numbers would peak at 625 in 2005 and fall to 546 in 2021, based on the Thirty-two Counties figure for births. This is based on a range of different projections. Clearly, people are also living longer.

In terms of coming up with an overall figure, it is based on the peak number of potential people — 625 last year and falling to 546 in 2021. Normally, one finds they are fairly consistent. The number of people who, unfortunately, pass on after reaching their 100th birthday will be replaced by people who are successful in reaching that age. The fact that just one person out of several hundred has reached the age of 106 indicates that as one moves up beyond 100, the numbers become fewer and fewer every year.

Ms C. Murphy

They are doing well to get to 100.

Mr. P. McGrath

I am confused about the figure cited by the Minister of State. As I understand it, he mentioned that it could peak at 625 in 2005.

Mr. Parlon

That is correct.

Mr. P. McGrath

However, we had 114 in 2005. Where does the figure of 625 come in if payments were made to 114 people? His projection is that €1.2 million will be needed for 2007, which represents approximately 480 people. If we examine the trends, we can see that three quarters of these people, or 360, will live outside the Twenty-six Counties State. Is it not dramatic that of all the people born in that year who would potentially be able to avail of this bounty, three quarters are not from within the State? I am sure the vast majority of these people would have emigrated to countries like Great Britain and the US. If, on normal standards, one takes the population of Northern Ireland as being approximately one third or slightly less than one third of the population here, one would expect that if there were 114 or 120 people here, there would be 30 people in Northern Ireland and the remainder. Is this not a colossal number? Why is this happening?

Perhaps, a study of these people could be carried out. What enables so many of them who were born here and went elsewhere to be able to live to such great age? Does the Chairman remember when the pre-1953 pensions were introduced? At that time, the projections from the Department of Social and Family Affairs were that they would cost €8 million. They now cost between €140 million and €150 million per annum. I wonder whether the same phenomenon will happen here.

Chairman

I hope the Deputy will not begrudge it if there is additional cost.

Mr. P. McGrath

I do not begrudge it to anybody.

Chairman

Do not go there.

Mr. P. McGrath

We are in the business of planning. It is the Chairman who is engaged in begrudging.

Mr. Nolan

Westmeath is the place to live. Remember the story about the 80-year-old woman being picked up by her father in the car.

Mr. P. McGrath

Exactly. One can see a sign in chippers which states: "We only give credit to people over 80 who are accompanied by their parents". She should go in.

Mr. Parlon

I stated that those figures were prepared on an actuarial basis. If one takes all of the births on the island of Ireland from 1905 to 1921, this figure is potentially what is there. Clearly, people went to the four corners of the earth. We have very few people from the southern hemisphere. I am sure there are more people in Australia. Alternatively, they might have found the climate there harsher or the living more difficult. This could be the case even in Argentina or Brazil, where many people from the Deputy's county are found. While they may not be aware of it yet, by 2021, 546 people could be eligible if everyone who left the country is——

Mr. P. McGrath

Is that figure estimated by calculating what percentage of people are likely to live more than 100 years?

Mr. Parlon

Yes.

Mr. N. O’Keeffe

How have the genuine cases been identified? Some people left our shores in 1906 for America, Brazil or elsewhere. In Ireland, we can use reference numbers in the social welfare system, but how can the many people who went to America in that period be identified to ensure that the State is not ripped off? The Department has included simple subheads for a petty amount of money, but I am amazed that we have not given the Government more discretion in this instance.

Mr. P. McGrath

Will the Chairman mention begrudgery when his own man is talking?

Mr. Parlon

I understand that the Department of Foreign Affairs has widely canvassed among Irish associations abroad. The fact that the Government is so generous as to offer a bounty of more than €2,500 to people of Irish birth received much publicity at the time. We are working on the basis of canvassing — family members, clergy and so on drawing people's attention to the matter — rather than via promotion. If someone in one of our parishes reaches 100 years of age or has subsequent birthdays, it is a big story. There is a thorough system to check people's ages.

Mr. N. O’Keeffe

Given that the Department of Foreign Affairs stated that one needs an Irish passport when going abroad, if one qualified for a passport in 1906, one was an Irish citizen in an all-Ireland republic, as my colleague, Deputy——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Sadly, it was not a republic, but good people were working towards it.

Mr. N. O’Keeffe

We were controlled by a colonial power.

Mr. Parlon

According to my advice, we are the only country with such a bounty for centenarians. Our records for 100 years ago are quite good. Regardless of what passport, if any, they carry, the most important criterion is whether such people were born in Ireland.

Mr. N. O’Keeffe

I am glad that the records are accurate. If we are wrong, the matter will be before the Committee of Public Accounts for two days.

Mr. P. McGrath

The Minister of State can send it a bag of nuts.

Chairman

We have completed our discussion on what we all believe is a good idea.