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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, PUBLIC EXPENDITURE AND REFORM (Select Sub-Committee on the Department of the Taoiseach) debate -
Thursday, 19 Apr 2012

Vote 6 - Chief State Solicitor’s Office (Revised)

We are in public session. Apologies have been received from Deputy Olivia Mitchell. The purpose of our meeting is to consider the Department of the Taoiseach group of Revised Estimates. The Dáil ordered that the following Revised Estimates for Public Services 2012 be referred to this sub-committee for consideration: Vote 1 - the President's Establishment; Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach; Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General; Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office; Vote 5 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions; and Vote 6 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor.

I welcome the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, the Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe, and their officials to the meeting to consider the Revised Estimates and the supplementary performance information regarding the outputs and impacts of the programme of expenditure involved. A draft timetable has been circulated. Is it agreed? Agreed.

I now invite the Taoiseach to make his opening statement, following which I will invite the Opposition spokespersons, in turn, to make a short statement of no longer than ten minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Will the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, be making a contribution after me?

Not at this stage. We will come to the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, later.

I welcome the opportunity to appear before the sub-committee to consider the 2012 Revised Estimates for Votes 1 to 6, inclusive. The 2012 Estimates are: the President's Establishment - €3.002 million; the Department of the Taoiseach - €23.627 million; the Office of the Attorney General - €14.997 million; the Central Statistics Office - €43.52 million; the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions - €39.553 million; and the Office of the Chief State Solicitor - €32.952 million. The total Estimate for these Votes in 2012 is €157.633 million, a reduction of 20% on the 2011 Revised Estimate of €173.342 million and a reduction of 9% on the 2011 outturn.

I will set out for the sub-committee the broad areas of work which will be undertaken by my Department in 2012. I will also briefly outline the proposed Estimate allocations for the President's Establishment, the Office of the Attorney General, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Office of the Chief State Solicitor. As members will be aware, while I have certain ministerial responsibilities to the Oireachtas in respect of administrative matters in the legal offices, they operate independently of my Department.

The Minister of State will then make a statement on the Estimates for the Central Statistics Office, for which he has delegated responsibility.

Vote 1, the Revised Estimate for the President's Establishment for 2012 is €3.002 million. This includes just over €2 million for pay and administration, with the balance of just over €1 million to fund the centenarian's bounty. It is estimated, although one can never be sure, that 388 centenarians will receive the bounty in 2012.

Vote 2, a total of €23.627 million has been provided in the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach in 2012. I have circulated to the sub-committee a graph showing the trend in expenditure by my Department in recent years. The graph sets in context the previous scale of Vote. While there is a slight increase between now and next year, the figure declines again. This shows that the Estimate declined from over €42 million in 2008 to €21.309 million in 2011. It also shows that in each year expenditure came in below the Revised Estimate. I informed the sub-committee on my first appearance before it last year that I intended that we would continue to operate within budget, if at all possible. I am pleased to say that the outturn for 2011 was €17.5 million, well within budget, despite significant costs associated with the visits by Queen Elizabeth and President Obama, the transition to a new Government and the inauguration of President Higgins. In 2012, the Estimate increases temporarily by 12% over the 2011 allocation because of the need to meet necessary once-off costs arising from Ireland's EU Presidency and the stability treaty referendum. Following this temporary increase, it is due to continue to decline in 2013 and 2014 to just over €17 million.

In my statement to the sub-committee last year I set out a range of measures I was taking to restructure the Department to transform it into the equivalent of a Cabinet office, overseeing the delivery of the programme for Government. That restructuring is now substantially complete. It includes: the establishment of a new programme for Government office from within existing resources; the establishment of a Tánaiste's office from within existing resources; and the establishment of a new integrated European affairs division, which involved the transfer of staff and functions from the Department of Foreign Affairs and the transfer of staff and functions relating to public service reform to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Members will be aware that the National Economic and Social Forum and National Centre for Partnership and Performance have been dissolved in recent years. A number of other bodies have ceased operation or have been absorbed into the Department. The only State body under the aegis of the Department of the Taoiseach is the National Economic and Social Council. My Department's Estimate includes an allocation of €2.22 million for the NESC. This budget has been significantly reduced in recent years and a number of staff from the council secretariat have recently been reassigned to work on key policy issues in my Department and the Department of Finance. This more effective use of resources has led to an increase in my Department's policy capacity at no extra cost to the taxpayer. I have adopted a similar approach in reassigning two staff from Forfás to my Department to support the vigorous implementation of the Government's action plan for jobs, again at no additional cost. I did this because I believe it is important that the Department of the Taoiseach, together with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, should oversee the implementation of the action plan which is central to Government policy and philosophy.

The Tánaiste and I have made clear that we continue to see the NESC as an essential forum for multilateral social dialogue. The council produces regular reports on economic, social and environmental issues, while providing a forum for engagement between different sectors of society, independent experts and representatives of the Government. It has recently published reports on the economic crisis, on promoting recovery and employment, on supports and services for unemployed people, on quality and standards in public services and on sustainable development. It has also taken on additional work relating to environmental issues, including climate change. The NESC is currently being reviewed as part of the Government's agency rationalisation programme to ensure it operates to maximum efficiency and effectiveness. I understand that this review will be discussed at a meeting of the council tomorrow, prior to proposals being submitted to the Government.

A core task of my Department is to oversee delivery of the programme for Government. The office established within my Department monitors implementation of programme for Government commitments on an ongoing basis. The office has engaged with all Departments and has identified the lead Department for each commitment contained in the programme for Government. It also ensures that departmental strategy statements fully reflect the commitments in the programme.

I met formally with each member of the Government at the beginning of the year to review progress on implementation of the programme within their Departments. On 7 March, following one year in government, the Tánaiste and I published the Programme for Government Annual Report 2012. This report highlights the substantial progress the Government has made during its first year in office. It also identifies particular priorities for the next 12 months, including a continued focus on restoring public confidence in the economy, creating more jobs, providing solutions for families in mortgage arrears, and making Ireland a fairer society.

The Government has also established a new system of Cabinet committees, serviced by my Department. These will continue to provide strategic direction at the centre of Government during 2012. I find the Cabinet committees very useful in focusing on individual issues which need to be progressed. At the heart of this is the Government Economic Management Council, which has the status of a Cabinet committee. The council normally meets on a weekly basis and oversees the Government's approach in respect of economic planning and budgetary matters, negotiations with the EU, ECB and IMF troika, and banking policy. The Cabinet committee on economic recovery and jobs is primarily focused on delivery of the action plan on jobs and other policies to support job creation and a restoration of economic activity.

The Cabinet committee on economic infrastructure seeks to maximise productive investment across the economy, in particular through the NewERA initiative. It will also have a role in other aspects of infrastructure investment and regulation over time. The Cabinet committee on climate change and the green economy deals with strategies to meet our demanding greenhouse gases emission targets, as well as opportunities arising for Ireland in green enterprise.

The Cabinet committee on health is primarily focused on developing and delivering on the Government's ambitious goals for health reform. The Cabinet committee on social policy seeks to ensure necessary reforms and fiscal adjustments are done in way that minimises the impact on the most disadvantaged in society. The Cabinet committee on public service reform is responsible for oversight of the comprehensive reform plan published by the Government last year.

Finally, the Government has established a temporary Cabinet committee on mortgage arrears to ensure an effective and timely response to the problem in this area facing many families across the country. In most cases, the Cabinet committees are supported by a group of senior officials chaired by my Department. In each case, the Cabinet committees report to the Government which retains responsibility for final decisions. Through the Cabinet secretariat, my Department manages the agenda and recording of decisions at each Government meeting, as well as a range of other related functions.

Given the current economic situation, it is particularly important and appropriate that, as Taoiseach, I take a strong international role in promoting Ireland as an attractive location for business, investment and tourism. This will continue to be a significant priority for me in 2012. We have made very significant progress in the past year in rebuilding our reputation. We are conveying the clear message that Ireland is open for business and that our people are working hard to get back on the road to recovery. This is epitomised by comments internationally by business, economic commentators and other political leaders. This work will be assisted by a new unit recently established from existing resources in my Department. The unit will help to ensure a more cohesive approach to our international communications and assist in promoting Ireland as an attractive location for business, investment and tourism. Its establishment was one of the recommendations of the Global Irish Economic Forum that took place last autumn.

As part of this international focus, I will continue to participate in international visits and engagements as appropriate. I have already participated in three successful visits to the United States this year. These included the invest in Ireland round table conference hosted by President Clinton in New York in early March, as well as the traditional St. Patrick's Day celebrations in Washington where I held a bilateral meeting with President Obama. I also had a discussion with business interests in Chicago and visited the University of Notre Dame and met the board of alumni. The University of Notre Dame is sending over its American football team, with 25,000 people travelling with it.

Another highlight this year was the successful inward visit of the Chinese Vice President Xi Jinping and my return visit to China. I have asked my Department to work closely with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and relevant Departments and agencies to maximise the benefits from these visits and strengthen our economic relationship with China and other significant emerging economies. The access to the most influential Chinese leaders will pay dividends as our working groups follow through on clear export opportunities to China for Irish businesses and, consequently, employment here. There are also possibilities for inward investment from China to Ireland as a gateway to the European Union. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine is in China following through on some of these aspects and dealing with areas of clear potential for Ireland.

This year I have also undertaken two visits to Britain, in addition to my international engagements at the European Council and with a number of other EU leaders, including most recently the leaders of Germany, Italy, Denmark and Finland. Ireland's forthcoming Presidency of the European Union provides a tremendous opportunity to build on that work. This Presidency will be Ireland's seventh and will coincide with the 40th anniversary of our accession to the EU. Preparatory work is already well under way and Ireland's role and responsibilities will grow in the second half of this year before we formally take over the Presidency in January 2013. My Department's Estimate for 2012 includes an allocation of €2.2 million for this purpose.

In the first half of next year we will have the opportunity to demonstrate once again our reliability and competence and help to rebuild Ireland's reputation abroad. This will give us the opportunity to shape and advance policy and legislation that can benefit the lives of millions of citizens in Ireland and across the EU. If successfully managed, it will also serve as a firm basis on which to advance Ireland's national and strategic interests over the coming decade. I have stressed, and will continue to emphasise, to all members of the Cabinet that the Presidency must be cost-effective and deliver value for money at every level. All Ministers are aware of that. Planning for the Presidency commenced in 2010 but is now intensifying across Government. Policy planning for the Presidency is being co-ordinated by the new EU affairs division in my Department through an interdepartmental group that is chaired by the Minister of State with special responsibility for European affairs, in close co-operation with the Irish permanent representation to the EU in Brussels. The practical and logistics preparations are being co-ordinated by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

We are working to ensure that expenditure on this Presidency will be considerably less than Ireland's previous Presidency in 2004 through measures including the hosting of many Presidency meetings in State-owned venues and centralised procurement and delivery of key support services. Additional staff are being recruited to my Department on short-term contracts to assist with the considerable challenges of planning and managing the Presidency. Where possible, we have also sought to redeploy staff from other Departments and State agencies. I will address the Dáil in more detail on 9 May during Europe week on the priorities for our Presidency but I stress that we will maintain an unswerving focus on issues of concern to citizens and Governments in Ireland and across Europe and, above all, on ways of advancing sustainable economic growth and creating jobs.

On 31 May the people will be asked to decide if Ireland should ratify the stability treaty. My Department's Estimate includes an allocation of €4.2 million to ensure that over the coming weeks we have an informed debate in which the people have full information about, and understanding of, the treaty and its wider context. The Government believes this allocation, which covers the Referendum Commission and the Government's information campaign, is appropriate given the vital importance of informing the public, while also taking account of national economic circumstances.

This process is already well under way. A series of hearings have already taken place in a special sub-committee of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Union Affairs chaired by Deputy Dominic Hannigan. Yesterday, the Tánaiste opened the debate in the Dáil and I will contribute to the debate this afternoon. The Government firmly believes that supporting this treaty is absolutely and unequivocally in Ireland's national interest. It is about our future and the future economic well-being of our country.

The Government is putting in place a comprehensive information campaign to ensure that voters are informed about the contents of the treaty. That, in turn, will facilitate a full debate about the decision that we, as a country, have to take on this issue. A key element of this - something that certainly has not happened in recent years - will be a distribution of the full text of this treaty to every household in the country, along with short explanatory material. Earlier today, together with the Tánaiste and Minister of State for European Affairs, I launched a dedicated website, stabilitytreaty.ie. This includes further explanatory material including an article-by-article guide to the treaty and a jargon buster to explain the more technical terms in simple English.

A Referendum Commission is already in place with Mr. Justice Kevin Feeney as chairman. It will be also be launching its own campaign in order to explain the treaty. The referendum allocation in my Department's Vote encompasses a budget of €2.2 million for the Referendum Commission to carry out its work. The commission has a very clear mandate to inform the public and is entirely independent in how it conducts its campaign.

Another ongoing, but essential, part of the work of my Department will be to continue to support me in my work to ensure continued peace and stability in Northern Ireland and further build North-South co-operation. Full support for the continued implementation of the Good Friday Agreement is essential. Life in Northern Ireland has been transformed as a result of the Good Friday Agreement. As co-guarantors of the agreement, the Governments of Britain and Ireland are continuing to work together to ensure its full implementation, as mandated by the vast majority of people, North and South.

The UK Prime Minister, David Cameron, and I recently signed a joint statement in Downing Street, setting out how we see British-Irish relations developing over the coming decade. The statement focused particularly on enhanced co-operation across a wide range of areas of mutual interest, including economic co-operation and trade and investment. We re-affirmed our commitment to Northern Ireland and agreed to work more closely together in Europe and on global issues, especially with regard to the growth, jobs and SME agenda in so far as Europe is concerned.

We also discussed how we can work together on the forthcoming decade of centenaries. Good work has already been undertaken in this area, with the assistance of Members from all sides of the House and our colleagues in the Northern Ireland Assembly and in Westminster. My Department is closely involved in that work, which is led for the Government by the Minister, Deputy Deenihan. Deputies will be aware that my Department, in conjunction with the Department of Defence, organised the recent ceremony at the GPO to commemorate the 96th anniversary of the 1916 Rising. It will also co-ordinate the arrangements of the National Day of Commemoration ceremony in July.

My Department's Estimate also includes an allocation of €300,000 for the constitutional convention. The Government has approved the establishment of the convention and has set out its proposals for its structure and operations. I have met representatives of the Opposition parties and the Dáil Technical Group to consult them on the Government's proposals. They have reverted to me with their views. I intend to have a further discussion with those representatives before the formal establishment of the convention. The Government proposes that the convention will be set up by resolutions of the Houses of the Oireachtas and will operate independently. Full discussions will take place in that regard. The resolutions will be introduced in the current session. I hope the convention will hold its inaugural meeting shortly thereafter.

I would like to move on to the individual Votes. In 2012, the Office of the Attorney General has a net budget of €14.997 million. The office has reduced its gross budget by almost 21% since 2008. The measures taken include a reduction in expenditure, where possible, and a reduction in staff numbers. Business units have been reorganised so the office can maintain a high level of service to its clients. The office is fully engaged in all public service reform initiatives, including those under the public service agreement.

The Estimate for Vote 5 - the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions - is €39.553 million. This provides for the salaries and expenses of the director and her staff, the cost of the local State Solicitor service, fees to counsel engaged by the director to prosecute cases in the various courts and legal costs awarded against the State arising out of judicial review and other legal proceedings. The Estimate for 2012 represents an increase of 7.5%, or €2.776 million, over the level of expenditure in 2011. The biggest single factor in this increase is the additional provision made in input A4, under general law expenses. This input covers the payment of legal costs awarded by the courts in judicial review matters and other applications connected to legal proceedings. A provision of €4.348 million has been made in respect of this input for 2012. This is an increase of €1.726 million over the level of expenditure in 2011. Expenditure levels in 2011 on this input were 57% lower than in 2010 and 64% lower than in 2009. Given the evolving nature of decisions with regard to law costs, however, it is considered prudent to make an increased provision for this input in 2012. Provision has also been made to meet once-off fit-out costs of new premises and the cost of moving to these premises in 2012, as well as the cost of salary increments which will arise during the year.

The gross Estimate for Vote 6 - the Office of the Chief State Solicitor - €34.812 million. Payroll accounts for €14.8 million of a total administrative budget of €17.498 million. The remaining €2.655 million within the administrative budget is attributable to the general running costs of the office and includes provision for items such as information technology services, training, security, cleaning, utilities and the upkeep of offices. Some €248,000 is allocated in relation to the payment for external legal services carried on by local State solicitors around the country. Some €17.066 million is allocated for the payment of fees to counsel and other general legal expenses such as stenographers' fees and the engagement of expert witnesses. The combined figures for salary and legal expenses account for 97% of the net allocation in the Revised Estimates of €32.952 million. Appropriations-in-aid are estimated at €1.86 million and will include legal costs recovered by the office along with the recoupment of the pension levy. I thank Members for their attention and commend these Estimates to the committee.

Before we proceed with the individual Votes, I would like to invite Deputy Sean Fleming to make an opening statement.

I thank the Taoiseach for his detailed and comprehensive presentation. He is the first head of a Department to present his Estimates to an Oireachtas committee this year. We have almost reached the end of April. It is important to mention that it was not intended that the Taoiseach would appear before this sub-committee until some time in May. The only reason he is here today is that a referendum on an EU treaty will take place on 31 May next, and the Referendum Commission and the Department of the Taoiseach do not have a budget line to incur expenditure in respect of the referendum campaign.

The Estimates were announced last December. The Revised Estimates for public services were published at the end of February. The members of this sub-committee received a third document - Further Revised Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach - yesterday. That document provides for €4.2 million to be made available for the referendum campaign. It needs to be cleared by this sub-committee today and voted through the Dáil tomorrow because the referendum is due to take place within a month.

The Deputies from my party support the referendum. We spoke in favour of it when it was debated in the House. We will continue to support it on the ground. It is important for the people of Ireland. I agree with the Taoiseach's sentiment that we are better off being part of the European Union than trying to stand outside this particular treaty in some way. There is an onus on those who support the treaty to ensure there is a "Yes" vote.

I have to say the Taoiseach is not going about it in a good way. Preparations are being rushed through the House today at a time when many people are undecided, approximately a month before the people are due to vote. The legislation has to be passed and the budget has to be approved. The Referendum Commission will not be able to spend any money until its budget is approved by the House tomorrow. Given that as we speak, not a single cent has been approved by the Oireachtas for expenditure by the Referendum Commission, I wonder how the commission has been able to place advertisements in all of today's national newspapers.

I wish to ask about the €4.2 million that has been included in today's Estimate. According to the 60-page briefing note we received from the Department of the Taoiseach - I accept that the Taoiseach was not able to deal with the full detail of the document - the treaty will be distributed to every house in the State in the first week of May in Irish and in English. Can the Taoiseach confirm that will be the case? Is what was suggested in the briefing note we received still the case? The briefing note goes on to say that it will be followed by the distribution of an information leaflet in mid-May. Perhaps the Taoiseach can say that this second item will be undertaken by the Government, as opposed to the Referendum Commission.

The Taoiseach mentioned that the Referendum Commission is independent in everything it does. It has to ensure its work is free from bias and is objective. Will the same thing be the case when taxpayers' money is spent by the Department of the Taoiseach on this matter? The Taoiseach said his Department will spend €2 million on an information campaign. The other €2.2 billion will be spent by the Referendum Commission. The briefing note also stated that under the Referendum Act 1998, the commission cannot incur any expenditure until the referendum Bill is passed but it will be next week before the Bill is through the Seanad. Perhaps that is a mistake because I understand from the Oireachtas that once the Bill is initiated, the commission has authority. The briefing note needs to be clarified in that regard.

We are here today because the Government is in a rush on this issue. There are a few weeks to go, but no money has been provided. The referendum was planned weeks ago and we should not have to rush it through. This rush will only add to the sense of unease. The €4.2 million being approved here covers the Department's information campaign and the campaign by the Referendum Commission. If he has the information, will the Taoiseach tell us the total cost of the referendum? The costs will involve polling cards, the costs of polling stations on polling day and costs for the referendum count. Not all of this is being met by the Taoiseach's departmental budget, but can he give us an indication of the total costs of the referendum? I am not complaining about the costs. Fianna Fáil has called for this referendum from first becoming aware of the treaty and it is calling for a "Yes" vote. However, the public will want to know how much the referendum will cost.

If people took the Taoiseach's opening statement on total expenditure at face value, they would be fooled. He gives the impression there has been a reduction in expenditure in the total of the Votes being considered here. The reason for the perceived reduction is due to one reason only, namely, the CSO's estimate this year is approximately €45 million, compared to €75 million last year because of the census. There is a saving this year of €30 million. However, if this once-off saving is removed, there are significant increases in expenditure across all the other headings - the Department of the Taoiseach, the Office of the Attorney General, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Office of the Chief State Solicitor. I wish the Taoiseach well with regard to the Cabinet sub-committees he has set up. It is in the interest of everybody that the country does well through foreign visits and increasing trade and exports. I do not quibble or have anything negative to say in that regard and I hope these initiatives go well. I hope the referendum goes well also but it is important we can answer all the queries of the public.

It is intended to publish the text of the treaty, which will come to approximately 15 or 17 pages, in both Irish and English. However, in my experience, if a document 20 pages long goes into a house, it will not even be opened. The Government may be able to say that it provided the text to everybody, but that is all. I remember from previous referendum campaigns that when the referendum commission provided documentation of ten or 12 pages, that made the issue clear for those who were interested in reading it. However, I met very few members of the public who read the documentation. When they got it, they said to themselves they must read it sometime but did not. It is important that the documents issued are concise. I am concerned and hope the Government will issue clear and simple information.

I have a few comments to make on the Estimates. These comments echo those I made on 5 December in the Chamber. I genuinely believed that in the time between the Estimates being announced in December and the presentation of these Revised Estimates, the Taoiseach would have taken cognisance of what was said in the Dáil that day. Expenditure for the Department of the Taoiseach is now increasing by 10%, from €17.5 million to €19 million. This is happening at a time when the Taoiseach is asking the people to live within their means. He wants the people to do as he says, but he is increasing expenditure in his Department by 10%. What is even more remarkable is the situation with regard to travel and subsistence. I highlighted this issue for the Taoiseach months ago and thought he would have adjusted it now. Travel expenses in the Taoiseach's Department are rising by 44% and, overall, the administration budget for the Department is increasing by 19%. The figures may not be huge but it is wrong for the Department of the Taoiseach to be increasing administration expenses by 19%, travel and subsistence by 44% and overall expenditure in the Department by 10% when he gives the impression that we should all be cutting expenditure.

We see the same situation with regard to the Vote for the Office of the Attorney General. Overall expenditure for this Vote is up 9%. Travel and subsistence is up 24% and overall administration expenses are up 11%. This is not the proper signal to send out to the public. Expenses for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions are up 8% and the administration expenses are up 9%. Given that this matter was discussed on 5 December, I would have thought that the Taoiseach, as head of Government, would have advised those in his Department not to increase administration and travel and subsistence expenses. I could point out further increases in expenditure but I will not because I do not want to get bogged down in this. However, the message is clear. The Taoiseach is saying that the Government is cutting expenditure but he is cutting it everywhere except in his Department and the Votes directly under his Department.

I will not comment on the Vote for the President's Establishment, but will wish the new President well. We all hope he does well and that he brings credit to the country. I do not want to get into any discussion on his expenses.

I will conclude by saying that as a spokesperson for Fianna Fáil, I would support a further Revised Estimate brought forward at some future date that would cut the expenditure I have mentioned so that the Taoiseach, as head of Government, can show the people he is serious when he speaks about cutting expenditure. The bringing forward of such a supplementary Estimate to cut expenditure would create history. Normally supplementary Estimates increase expenditure but this would be one that reduces it. That move would do the Taoiseach, the Government and the Oireachtas good. Other than this, I wish the Taoiseach well in his important work on behalf of the State.

I am required to go through each Vote separately and I propose to do that now. Therefore, I would prefer if we dealt with the issues and responses in accordance with each of the Votes. Obviously, the debate relates principally to the Vote of the Department of the Taoiseach, which is second on the agenda.

With the sub-committee's agreement, I will proceed to deal with Vote 1 - the President's Establishment. Colleagues will find the subheads for this on pages 1-9 in the briefing document. Subhead A1, administrative pay agreed to. I will deal with each individual subhead to ensure clarity. Subhead A2, administration, non-pay, agreed to. Subhead A2(i), travel and subsistence, agreed to. Subhead A3, training and development and incidental expenses, agreed to. Subhead A4, postal and telecommunications services, agreed to. Subhead A5, office equipment and external IT services in the President’s establishment, agreed to. Programme 2 in the President’s Establishment, centenarians’ bounty, subhead B1, administrative pay, agreed to. Subhead B2, administration non-pay, agreed to. Subhead B3, centenarian programme, agreed to. Subhead B, appropriations in aid, agreed to.

We turn now to Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach. Is subhead A1, salaries, wages and allowances, agreed to?

Could the Taoiseach respond in general on that heading and deal with it all together?

Deputy Fleming has the graph demonstrating the changes that have occurred in the Department of the Taoiseach since 2008 and can see that expenditure is down substantially. As he has rightly pointed out, the increase between 2011 and 2012 is strictly in respect of both the stability treaty referendum and the EU Presidency. Expenditure will decline thereafter to just over €17 million.

The Deputy raised the question of the opportunity to explain to people what the fiscal stability treaty is about and that is an important issue. This is the first time the Government will provide to the population at large such extensive, explanatory information on the treaty. A copy of the treaty will be sent to every household with an explanatory text. That will be in Irish and in English, as will the second explanatory leaflet. I agree with the Deputy. I remember canvassing in Ballyfermot back in the 1980s, and at the end of a very long day's canvassing I walked up to a house just as the woman of the house was arriving. As she went in the door, I saw that she had a bucket inside the letterbox to collect all the pieces of available information, which was taken away quickly, if I can put it that way. I am not sure whether any bills or salary envelopes were in it as well.

I accept that on the last occasion we had a high-profile presidential election along with the two referendums. While people were clearly able to determine their views on the issue of judicial pay, there were quite a number of questions they were not clear about with regard to information from whistleblowers and the opportunity that might arise for committees of the Oireachtas to delve into matters.

This is a single-issue treaty. It is one that Ireland cannot stop, because once it has been ratified by 12 countries it moves ahead. It is 65 days since its announcement. Today I launched a thorough website, with the Tánaiste and the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, which represents a genuine attempt, from the Government's perspective, to explain what this is all about in understandable English. The phrase used is "the jargon-buster of legalese in European-speak". As Deputy Fleming is aware, the Government will carry out its own programme in terms of information for citizens. The Referendum Commission, which has been allocated €2.2 million, is entirely independent in how it does its business, and we respect that completely.

I hope that during the course of the debate, people will get a full understanding of how important this is for our people, for our country and for the future. As I said some time ago, irrespective of the disagreements we have as parties in the Oireachtas, this is about our country's future and our people's future. Central to that is continued confidence in this country among investors from abroad, epitomised yesterday by the decision of a major multinational to invest €500 million because of our productivity figures, our talent, our technology and our track record. No person in our country should in any way detract from that level of continued confidence. From my perspective, that means strong approval of the treaty.

As I said, €4.2 million is allocated in the Estimate for the treaty referendum, of which €2.2 million has gone to the Referendum Commission, which acts entirely independently. The remaining €2 million is being provided for in an information campaign by the Government to ensure the public is fully and properly informed. Precise figures cannot be given today but in broad terms, the costs are likely to include: printing and distribution of copies of the treaty - approximately €480,000; printing and distribution of copies of a further information leaflet - about €220,000; purchase of advertising and advertorial space - about €350,000; web design and graphic design - about €30,000; translation and conversion to Braille of the treaty and explanatory memorandum - about €20,000; and other miscellaneous and contingency arrangements, about €780,000. Fuller and more final details of these figures will become available for different aspects of the campaign and as tendering processes are completed.

Deputy Fleming may compare this with the Lisbon treaty referendums. The total spend on the first Lisbon treaty referendum was €5.738 million, of which €5 million was made available to the Referendum Commission, while the total spend on the second referendum was €3.786 million, of which €3.1 million was provided to the Referendum Commission. On the basis that this is a single treaty referendum question, it is not as broad or expensive as the Lisbon treaty referendum, during which a whole spectrum of issues were raised. Given the fact that we have had extensive discourse at the Oireachtas committee and in the Dáil and Seanad, that the website has been launched and that the Referendum Commission has been set up, there is adequate time not only for a full, thorough, comprehensive and detailed analysis of the treaty but also for an explanation for every citizen about what it is all about and how important it is for our country's future.

With regard to the figures mentioned by the Deputy, an increase of 44% actually represents an amount of about €100,000. It may well be that some of these amounts are not reached. As the Deputy indicated, the last number of Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach have outperformed the Revised Estimates and the outturns have come in lower. I assure the Deputy that the Department I head up is acutely conscious of the proper and effective expenditure of public moneys and taxpayers' money.

There are a number of areas in which, although there is an increase, the figures are relatively small and, based on past experience, the Department may well outperform the Revised Estimates. As I said, it costs about €17 million to run a referendum, according to figures from the Department of the Environment, so I hope that by 31 May, people will be well informed about the importance of the referendum and the issues involved. Irrespective of whatever political rows we might have internally as we face the challenge of dealing with our internal public financial problems, this is about the European Union. It is about all the countries and citizens of Europe. From that perspective, it is essential that we do not in any way diminish the credibility and confidence that exists in terms of continued investment in our country from abroad.

I have a few minor supplementaries, and that will be the end of it. The Taoiseach read out some figures from the budget breakdown. He might be good enough to ask his officials to provide these to the clerk to the sub-committee so that we can obtain a copy.

That would be helpful.

The Taoiseach said the estimated cost was €17 million, which includes the cost of polling day. It is an expensive operation and we want to get it right.

With regard to the budget, it is clear from the figures the Taoiseach gave from previous referendums, whether the amount was €5 million or €5.8 million, that about 80% of these budgets consisted of moneys given to the Referendum Commission, leaving very little for the Government to spend. On this occasion, out of €4.2 million, the Government is giving only €2.2 million to the Referendum Commission, which represents only about 50% of the available funds. It is clear that the amount for the Referendum Commission has been cut; it is also clear that the proportion of the total funds available for the information campaign has been cut from about 80% to about 50%. The Taoiseach might explain the reasoning behind this fundamental change. It is because of some displeasure expressed by Ministers about the Referendum Commission on a previous occasion?

I hope the various documents will be delivered to households around the country by An Post, even if it is more expensive. The household charge leaflets never arrived anywhere near where I live; I do not know what kind of shambles occurred. I know there may be procurement issues, but the most important factor is the ability of the organisation to deliver the leaflets, and An Post can do that. I suggest that no matter what the circumstances, we can rely on An Post to deliver them. If we go down the road of giving the contract to some other organisation and we find that hundreds of thousands of houses did not get the leaflet, it will be a bad day's work.

I thank the Deputy for his party's support for the treaty, about which he has been unequivocal. As he is aware, the Government puts out the facts and information for all citizens, while the individual parties that comprise the Government carry out their own campaigns. So far as that is concerned, I will keep the parties that support the treaty informed of the trends and of the issues that arise so that people will not be kept at a remove from the issues in question.

The delivery of copies of the treaty and explanatory memorandum must be tendered for. I take the Deputy's point that if I had experience in the past of where substantial amounts of literature might not have been delivered, it is very important that whoever wins the tender be in a position to demonstrate that they can deliver to all the citizens. There is no difficulty in respect of the allocation to the Referendum Commission. It is a single issue referendum and it is not for me to tell the commission what to do but I notice in the past that the commission has begun to focus more on the information as to the facts concerned. The 2011 referenda on judicial pay and Oireachtas inquiries together had a budget of €2.25 million. I would consider the allocation of €2.2 million to the Referendum Commission which is now in place is more than adequate to do a very effective job. It is for the Referendum Commission to decide how to use that money. In our view there are more than adequate resources for the commission to do a very effective job in the manner it sees best in informing the public about the treaty.

The Deputy may flag any other stray issues if they arise. I will proceed with Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach. For the assistance of members, this is detailed on pages ten to 37 of the briefing document.

Subhead A1, salaries, wages and allowances; subhead A2, travel and subsistence; subhead A3, incidental expenses; subhead A4, postal and telecommunications; subhead A5, office equipment and external IT services; subhead A6, office premises expenses; subhead A7, consultancy services; subhead A8, EU Presidency; subhead B, appropriations-in-aid. We have dealt with subhead A1. There are no comments or questions on these subheads and they are agreed.

Programme expenditure is subhead A3, National Economic and Social Development Office; subhead A4, tribunal of inquiry payments to Messrs. C.J. Haughey and Michael Lowry; subhead A5, Constitutional Convention; and subhead A6, referendum on EU fiscal stability treaty. There are no comments or questions on these subheads and they are agreed.

The strategic priorities of the Department are: A, Jobs and growth; B, Europe; C, programme for Government; D, service; E, trust; F, reform; G, fairness; and H, peace. There are no comments on these strategic priorities and they are agreed.

I will now deal with Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General. The background information on the subheads is detailed on pages 38 to 50 of the briefing document. Subhead A1, salaries, wages and allowances; subhead A2, travel and subsistence; subhead A3, incidental expenses; subhead A4, postal and telecommunications; subhead A5, office machinery and other office supplies; subhead A6, office premises expenses; subhead A7, consultancy services; subhead A8, contract legal expertise; subhead B, contributions to international organisations; subhead C, Law Reform Commission grant-in-aid; subhead D, general law expenses; and subhead E, appropriations-in-aid. There are no comments or questions on these subheads and they are agreed.

I will now deal with Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office. I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Paul Kehoe to introduce this Vote and we will then proceed to deal with the individual headings.

The Central Statistics Office is responsible for the collection and processing and publication of official statistics on economic, social and general conditions in Ireland. While the main focus is to meet the statistical requirements of Government, the information published by the CSO is also used for other public bodies and by business, universities, research institutes and the general public. There is a significant international dimension to the work of the CSO. EU institutions, the IMF, the OECD and other international bodies are all important users of official statistics. These bodies also have a significant role in defining standards for the compilation of comparable information. The CSO subscribes to the standards set out in the UN fundamental principles of official statistics and the European statistics code of practice.

The CSO allocation for 2011 included the costs of collecting and processing the census of population. Net expenditure in 2011 amounted to €72.123 million. With the main processing completed and the census publication programme now under way, the net allocation for 2012 is lower than last year at €43.502 million.

The preliminary results of the census were published in June 2011 and members of the sub-committee will know that on 29 March 2012, the CSO published the first volume of detailed census results titled, This is Ireland - Highlights from Census 2011, Part 1. These results contain a wealth of information about Ireland today. In preparing the report, the CSO has provided more interpretation, analysis and illustration of the results. This includes thematic maps of census results which were developed in co-operation with the all-Ireland research observatory at NUI Maynooth.

In addition to the census, the CSO will publish approximately 240 releases and publications this year. All these statistics are published online. Members of the public are increasingly aware of and are able to access statistics and indicators on the social, economic and environmental issues which affect their daily lives.

The CSO statement of strategy for 2012-14 gives priority to delivering the core statistics needed for policy while keeping a strong focus on cost reduction. The office has met all its commitments for savings under the McCarthy report and the Croke Park agreement and it is implementing a programme of continuous business process improvements in the collection and processing of statistics.

The CSO is taking a lead in developing the Irish statistical system by working closely with other Departments and public bodies to promote a more coherent approach to meeting data needs and to extend the statistical use of administrative data. This work is an important part of public service reform, as joined-up government needs joined-up data. Better use of data across the public service will contribute to more evidence-informed decisions and better monitoring of policy outcomes.

Better co-ordination also contributes to reducing the burden on data providers. Between 2008 and 2010, the CSO has reduced the response burden of its non-agricultural business surveys by 18%. Similarly, it has been able to remove 25 questions from the annual June agricultural survey by re-using administrative data on cattle and cereals already provided by farmers.

The CSO Vote for 2012 provides for a total of 706 staff compared with 808 staff in 2011. The reduction reflects the cyclical nature of the census operation and the CSO's commitment to the general reduction in public service numbers.

I commend the values and principles which inform the CSO's work. The CSO makes an important contribution to Ireland's public policy by providing a high quality and most important, an independent statistical service.

Copies of the Minister of State's speech will be circulated to members. The Central Statistics Office has been of very great assistance to the work of this sub-committee and to other committees. There is a pressing need for clear information and statistics about the developments in the economy and historical comparative data. It has been very helpful to this sub-committee by way of making presentations thereto, sometimes alongside representatives of the Central Bank, which has also been extremely helpful, and by way of making presentations to Members more broadly in the House. Information is a considerable part of any assessment of our economic prospects. However, without the professionalism of the Central Statistics Office, our ability to analyse and understand what has happened and is likely to happen would be very much the poorer.

I have just one topic to raise. In the briefing notes we received, it is stated most of the foreign travel relates to statistics meetings organised by EUROSTAT. Later, it is stated an allocation of approximately €500,000 for staff training and development each year reflects the importance of training to the CSO. What is the role of the CSO in regard to the error associated with the double-counting of €3.6 billion in national debt, which figure was supplied to EUROSTAT?

The NTMA had a role in this, and the Department of Finance was conducting inquires and reporting to the Committee of Public Accounts. We still have not seen a result several months after the matter came to light. The HFA had some role in the matter. Over the duration of several quarters, the CSO's statistical returns to EUROSTAT on our national debt were incorrect because of the double-counting of the €3.6 billion. While I understand other organisations must answer for themselves, I question the errors in the CSO that were not picked up. Why were others not alerted regarding figures that did not seem to tally? There should have been some counterbalancing mechanisms to indicate the increase in debt of €3.6 billion due to double-counting, even if the mistake was not originally made in the Department. The erroneous figures were given weight at European level because they were reported by the CSO to EUROSTAT. Has the Department of the Taoiseach got to the bottom of the matter because the Department of Finance has not done so yet? The CSO actually supplied the figures to EUROSTAT. The Taoiseach had to formally correct the statistics sent to EUROSTAT as a result of the error. What will the consequences be?

I will pass on the Chairman's comments to the board and ensure they are passed on to its chairman.

The Secretary General of the Department of Finance had a meeting with the Committee of Public Accounts on 3 November 2011 and undertook to have an internal report compiled on the statistical error in Ireland's Government debt data of 2010. An external review of the processes involved in the completion of Ireland's debt data was also proposed. The internal review has now been carried out and an external review was undertaken by Deloitte. The latter is being finalised. I understand the two reports will be sent shortly to the Minister for Finance, who will then make them available to Government colleagues prior to transmission to the Committee of Public Accounts. The CSO will appear before that committee over the coming weeks. This will give members of the committee an opportunity to question the CSO on its involvement.

I will let it go at that.

The reports have not been fully completed. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on reports that are not finalised. They will be discussed fully by the Committee of Public Accounts.

I am a member of that committee. It is six months since the former Secretary General committed to carrying out internal and external reviews. Six months later, neither report has even been submitted to the Minister for Finance, never mind the Government and the Committee of Public Accounts. The Minister for Finance should not be happy with a six-month delay in receiving the report. It will probably take a considerable period for the reports to reach the Committee of Public Accounts after their having been received by the Minister. We will discuss them when we receive them but the delay is very poor.

It is not altogether six months since that incident. The CSO had people compile the report, which takes time. I assure the Deputy that the two reports are near completion and that there will be a full and frank debate by the Committee of Public Accounts once the Minister for Finance has received them.

Are the Department's EUROSTAT colleagues happy with the CSO's bona fides?

It would not be right for me to comment on any reports.

I am talking about EUROSTAT. Must it also receive a copy of the reports?

It will get a copy.

The briefing material is in pages 51 to 60 of the booklet.

There are no comments or questions on subhead A1, salaries, wages and allowances in the CSO; subhead A2, travel and subsistence; subhead A3, training and development and incidental expenses; subhead A4, postal and telecommunications services; subhead A5, office machinery and other office supplies; subhead A6, office premises expenses; subhead A7, consultancy services; subhead A8, collection of statistics and subhead B, appropriations in aid.

Vote 5 pertains to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. The background material is to be found between pages 61 and 67 in the booklet circulated to colleagues.

There are no comments or questions on subhead A1, salaries, wages and allowances; subhead A2, travel and subsistence; subhead A3, training and development and incidental expenses; subhead A4, postal and telecommunications services; subhead A5, office machinery and other office supplies; subhead A6, office premises expenses; and subhead A7, consultancy services, value for money and policy reviews.

On input A3, fees to counsel, input A4, general law expenses, and input A5, local State solicitor services, there are no comments or questions.

Vote 6 concerns the Chief State Solicitor's office. The background material is between pages 68 and 81 of the booklet. There are no comments or questions on subhead A1, salaries, wages and allowances; subhead A2, travel and subsistence; subhead A3, incidental expenses; subhead A4, postal and telecommunications services; subhead A5, office machinery and other office supplies and related services; subhead A6, office premises expenses; subhead A7, consultancy services and value for money and policy reviews; subhead A8, external legal services; subhead B, fees to counsel; subhead C, general law expenses; and subhead D, appropriations in aid.

I thank the Taoiseach and the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, and their respective officials for assisting the sub-committee with our consideration of the Revised Estimates and programmes.

I thank the Chairman for the efficiency with which he conducted his business. I thank Deputy Fleming for his constructive suggestions.

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