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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 28 Jun 2000

Vol. 3 No. 3

Estimates for Public Services, 2000.

Vote 38 - Foreign Affairs (Supplementary).

On behalf of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, I welcome the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, and his officials. The select committee's task this afternoon is to consider a Supplementary Estimate in the sum of £169,000 for the European Movement, Ireland. A background note has been circulated to members. I will call on the Minister to make an opening statement; I will then call the main Opposition spokespersons to contribute, following which we can have a question and answer session.

As well as the money to be allocated for the European Movement, Ireland, there is also provision in the Supplementary Estimate for an organisation called Irish United Nations. I am not quite clear what that is. Is that part of the Supplementary Estimate or is it in the original Vote? Why are the two organisations being grouped together?

We can confine our remarks to the European Movement, Ireland. I ask the Minister to make his statement.

I thank the Chairman. I am grateful to the committee for making time available in this very busy week to consider this Supplementary Estimate in the Vote for Foreign Affairs.

The European Movement, Ireland is well known to Members of the Oireachtas. Many of the members of the committee will be familiar with its track record in making a changing Europe comprehensible to a wide section of Irish public opinion. It disseminates information to the public about Europe and aims to encourage and assist the involvement in European issues of people from all sectors in Ireland.

The EMI has developed a network of branches around the country, working to raise awareness of EU issues and flagship projects, such as the European of the Year Award, would be the movement's best known activities. However, throughout the year, public conferences, seminars, briefing sessions, training courses and public information campaigns on European Union matters are organised by the movement.

Until now, the movement has received only a small annual grant from the Department of Foreign Affairs - £7,000 last year - and has relied on corporate sponsors and membership dues to cover its costs. Special projects undertaken by the movement are sometimes co-funded by the European Commission or the Communicating Europe task force. Running expenses and the cost of its routine activities, however, are not so well funded. The movement is faced with an expanding demand for its services and uncertainty in its funding.

Following an approach from the movement, and after consultations between the Departments of the Taoiseach, Finance and Foreign Affairs, it has been decided to put the funding of the movement on a proper financial footing through the provision of £100,000 in the Estimates for 2001 and following years. The movement also requires additional assistance this year for its ongoing activities and to cover a shortfall in funding in 1999. Unfortunately, the additional financial needs of the movement did not come to my attention until earlier this month following the select committee's consideration of my Department's Estimate for 2000. It is for this reason that I now seek the committee's approval for a Supplementary Estimate on Vote 38.

There are two elements in my request for a Supplementary Estimate to address the European Movement's current financial position - first, a one off shortfall of expenditure over income in 1999 amounting to £79,000, resulting from lower than anticipated income, and, second, the need for an ongoing annual Government subvention to the EMI to support its activities. The European Movement, Ireland currently receives a small grant-in-aid - £10,000 has been budgeted for this year - and I propose to increase this to £100,000 per year. The Supplementary Estimate I have presented amounts to £169,000. It is made up of £79,000 to cover the 1999 deficit and £90,000 to supplement the existing provision of £10,000 for this year.

As the Taoiseach and I outlined to the Dáil yesterday in our statements on the European Council in Feira, the European Union is moving into a particularly important phase. The Intergovernmental Conference is due to conclude its work during the second half of the year and enlargement negotiations are becoming more intensive. In this context of enlargement and institutional change, there will be an increased need to encourage deeper public awareness of and an informed debate on European Union issues.

The European Movement is well placed to facilitate this awareness and debate and my view is that the movement's work is of a standard and value to merit realistic and meaningful Government support. I am confident that these new funding arrangements for the European Movement will enable it not just to continue but to redouble its efforts in bringing Europe closer to the public.

I compliment the Minister on proposing the Supplementary Estimate and I agree with his comments and the reasons he put forward regarding the need for the Estimate. All members are aware of the important role that the EMI has played in providing information and a better understanding and awareness of Europe. An important point is that it has a nationwide profile. We are often informed of the important seminars and meetings that the movement organises. I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Dukes, who is the chairman of the EMI, in that regard.

We are lucky to have such a successful body in Ireland that takes its role so seriously. It is particularly successful in terms of the dissemination of information about Europe as it evolves. We are aware that changes take place in Europe at a speedier rate than elsewhere. Therefore, it is most important that such an important information body is not trying to survive on a shoestring. Its work to date has been exemplary given its budget. I welcome and support the Estimate. I agree with the Minister that the movement is worthy of Government support.

A Chathaoirligh, níl aon deacracht agam leis na Meastacháin breise seo agus tá súil agam go gcuirfimid leis an méad ama atá ag teastáil chun iad a phlé.

I have no difficulty with approving the Supplementary Estimate for the European Movement which will be used to discharge its accrued deficit. However, I wish to make a number of points about the movement in the future. If it is to be funded at a considerably higher level, it should have a broader relationship with European issues. It is not perceived in all quarters as an organisation which is totally open and discursive of all the issues facing Europe, including those mentioned by the Minister yesterday that arose in Feira. I agree with him that those issues will require a wide, publicly informed debate.

The European Movement is not a public information body; it is a highly successful propaganda body and has been so from the beginning. I am aware of the merits of many of the people who participate in it, but we should not describe it as anything other than what it is. It did not pretend to be anything else from the beginning. In terms of its future role, if it is to be the agency for a wider debate, it must change its remit.

I can think of a range of issues which have never been debated but which should have been discussed. These include regional policy and matters relating to the Social Chapter. For example, there has never been a thorough debate on the impact of the WTO talks on the cultural sector in Ireland, the future direction of cultural policy in Europe and the US domination of film. These are all exciting European issues and, in agreeing to the Estimate, I am not accepting a definition of the institute's role as the information body on Europe. It is not such a body. As I said, it is a very successful propaganda organisation for a version of Europe and I wish it good luck.

It has organised some excellent seminars and good information sessions on particular topics. I welcome that work. I have attended some of the discussions and I appreciate their quality. However, the programme of information is limited and tendentious. It is not within 100 miles of being critical. I participate in events abroad involving a wider debate about Europe, such as seminars organised by the Mercouris Foundation in Athens and others. They deal with much wider issues. As it is to get new funding, as proposed in the Supplementary Estimate, I would like to see the movement adopt a new agenda. This may require a change to its structure, which is a matter for it to decide. At present it is conciliar where leaders, current and departed, are involved. I am sure their collective wisdom is immense, but I am not sure they are coterminous with the critical terrain that exists in Europe and that is discussing, for example, European citizenship, a subject the movement could also debate. I offer these points to the movement in honesty. I wish it well but I am under no illusion about its success to date. I hope its success in the future will be wider and deeper.

I wish to make a few remarks about this Supplementary Estimate. Have the Minister and his Department taken into account the effect of the McKenna judgment? If a not insignificant sum of money is to be given to people who have a very clear point of view with regard to Europe, is there not an obligation under law to give an equal sum of money to those who have an equally clear but opposite point of view?

I am not enamoured with the consequences of the McKenna judgment. It has already created difficulties and will in the future create huge difficulties. When even the most obvious changes are to be made to the Constitution, funding on an equal basis will have to be made available to people who argue against something that is self-evident. That is ridiculous. I do not admire the judgment but must accept it, for the moment at least, as the law. The Minister must also accept it.

We are used to Supplementary Estimates where an increase has to be given to some heading or other, but in this instance the increase is just short 1,700%, which is a very large percentage. We should think twice before committing ourselves to the concept of clearing the accumulated debts of an institution, however worthy, at the public expense. I can think of many people who, over the years, ran up accumulated deficits and they have no chance of getting the taxpayer to clear them.

I have had limited experience of the European Movement. In terms of the promotion of worthwhile debate on European issues, by far the most useful and valuable institution is the Institute of European Affairs, domiciled in North Great George's Street, where genuine debates are held and different points of view are put forward and discussed. People of standing, from home and abroad, contribute to them. The debates are very informative and publications follow frequently where the proceedings of the institute are published in pamphlet or book form. They genuinely contribute to the dissemination of information and dialogue about Europe. I cannot say the same about the European Movement. As Deputy Higgins said, the point of view put forward by the movement is clear. One can almost tell in advance what its view on a topic will be.

The Minister referred to the statements he and the Taoiseach made arising out of the EU Summit meeting at Feira last week and the Intergovernmental Conference, which is due to conclude its work before the end of this year. There are some extremely difficult matters to be dealt with there, not least in terms of institutional changes, that will have to precede enlargement. These changes are not going to be easy to achieve. I am involved in one aspect of them on behalf of the Dáil. I am also involved on behalf of this committee, but that is coincidental. It relates to the Convention on Fundamental Rights, which is proving to be a very academic exercise. However, the more we get into it - I have not been a good attender because of the pressures here - and the more I read about the proceedings and the drafts, the more complex the matter becomes. It is not one that can be readily adopted by this country or any other of the 14 members states because it has considerable consequences for each of them.

It is especially problematical for a country like ours which has a long and detailed written Constitution. Where will this convention stand vis-à-vis the Constitution? Will it ultimately form part of the treaties of the European Union or will it be simply a declaration of intent? It is broadening itself into what one might call social and economic rights, which are far more extensive than the fundamental rights envisaged and underwritten in the Constitution.

Few national constitutions seem to envisage things like social and economic rights which tend to come in the course of a country's development well after the proclamation of fundamental rights. The interaction between those rights and the Constitution is something that needs considerable thought and debate. In the last couple of weeks I have received the benefit of an opinion of a senior counsel where he points up many of the problems that are likely to arise. I do not believe there has been debate on this topic.

There are other topics of equal importance that may have to be decided by the Intergovernmental Conference before the end of the year that also have not been fully debated. I would like to think that the extra £179,000 we are now giving to the European Movement would contribute to that debate but, based on my experience, I have no reason to believe it will. However, I will not oppose it, but I would like the Minister to take on board some of the things I and others have said.

I welcome the Minister to the meeting and I also welcome what he has said. I broadly support the Supplementary Estimate. I value the fact that the European Movement has held seminars throughout the country, although most of them are held in Dublin. When replying, will the Minister indicate if it is proposed to hold more of them in the regions? My experience of seminars in the regions usually relates to the referenda over the past years. The referendum on the Amsterdam Treaty was the last one. These seminars are usually well attended and very informative. However, as other speakers stated, the panels at these seminars are usually comprised of people who agree with each other. Certainly the main political parties in Ireland appear to agree on the issues in question. I have spoken at a number of the seminars held in my constituency and I have discovered that panel members are usually in agreement on those issues. At the seminar in Galway city on the Amsterdam Treaty, the only person who disagreed was a member of the Green Party who offered an alternative point of view.

I accept the Chairman's comments in respect of the McKenna judgment.

The Galway Greens.

Representatives of the Green Party can always be brought in from elsewhere.

Issues such as SACs, NHAs and turf cutting have arisen at these seminars. Deputy Higgins, who served as Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, will recall the debate on a number of these. People tend to become annoyed because they feel that Europe is dictating what happens in respect of issues of this nature. Usually there is no one on the panel at such seminars who can deal adequately with the questions that are raised.

Deputy O'Keeffe is now acting as mediator in respect of those issues.

There is a need to appoint a spokesperson to deal with such issues in the future

I welcome what is done by the European Movement in Ireland but there is a need to provide more literature for the general public, particularly students. One tends only to receive literature from this organisation when a referendum is about to take place. One is then presented with a raft of information which must be debated in a short period. Perhaps we could find a better way to disseminate information, particularly in view of the fact that most of the parties seem to agree on the situation in Europe.

I call on the Minister to conclude.

I thank Members for their contributions. I acknowledge the support of the committee for this substantial increase in funding for the European Movement. I take the point that, when we make this policy decision, with the agreement of all, to greatly increase the level of subvention to this organisation, on behalf of the taxpayer we have a right to expect that there would be a greater public impact in terms of the work done by the European Movement in Ireland. That point will be put across when we report back on the acceptance by the committee of the Supplementary Estimate.

The European Movement has played an important role in making a changing Europe comprehensible. I also take the point that the Institute of European Affairs is an excellent body and I have had direct experience of the role it plays and the quality of the work it carries out. The institute has generated and commissioned a number of excellent studies which have engendered great debate and improved our understanding of European trends and the benefits and difficulties which have arisen as a result of our membership of the EU.

The European Movement should be well disposed to discovering how it can match the Institute of European Affairs' ability to highlight and heighten public awareness in order to promote fruitful and constructive debate. The European Movement must concentrate on the issue of how best to impart its message in order to make an impact on the general public.

We must consider the structure of the European Movement in Ireland. I will circulate to Members a copy of a document in my possession, the Activities of the European Movement - June 1999 to June 2000. As stated earlier, the fact that it has so many branches throughout the country dilutes somewhat the impact of its message. One Member stated that he felt many of the organisation's activities were Dublin based. However, it appears to me that there is a good geographical spread of its branches throughout the country.

The document to which I refer lists the events organised and services provided during the past 12 months. These include the provision of an updated website with information on European issues; freephone inquiry numbers; publication of vital national interests, Ireland and Europe; a conference was held on regional development in October last year; there was a training course for local government representatives and officials in November and December of last year; the presentation of the European of the Year award in February of this year; public meetings were held on various themes - for example, there was a meeting in Youghal in November on the implications for domestic taxation of the end of Structural and Cohesion funds; a meeting on strengthening human rights for European Union citizens was held in Dún Laoghaire in April of this year and the question of EU enlargement was discussed in Limerick, also in April - and, finally, a meeting on participation in the international European Movement's parliamentary youth assembly was held in September of last year.

The Taoiseach is the President of the European Movement and I believe many of our criticisms should be directed to the vice-presidents, among whose number are the Tánaiste and Deputies John Bruton, Quinn and De Rossa. As its chairman, I am sure Deputy Dukes would be willing to listen to the concerns of the committee which has been extremely generous in taking what is a leap of faith in this area. The increased allocation is not based on improved performance; it is based on the fact that the finances of a reputable body with noble aims and objectives are in deficit.

Sometimes the State avoids certain of its responsibilities for as long as possible. On this occasion, it is felt that it should meet its responsibilities in this area. That does not take away from the fact that a significant amount of money is being spent by the movement. Expenditure in 1999 amounted to £318,729 while receipts were £239,686. Those receipts were broken down on the following basis: membership, £128,635; activities, £79,115; grants, £30,936 and office services, £1,000. The amount of money required is sizeable and the State is prepared to provide up to £100,000 per annum or one-third of the movement's total expenditure.

One would expect that, as a result of that major injection of cash, one would see a good return for taxpayers' money. That will involve, as Deputy Higgins stated, the European Movement having to reassess its remit and consider the ways it can focus on the areas of priority on which it should concentrate in debates and seminars held throughout the country. From perusing the movement's activities last year, one gets the impression that the various branches do their own thing. One is not certain that a coherent core agenda is being pursued by the movement in all of its activities.

Concentrating on core issues, tightening its agenda and pursuing a consistent theme in the activities it organises throughout the year would, perhaps, be a way to ensure that people are made aware of the movement's purpose. For example, the Galway association could well have discussed SACs if it had held a public meeting last year. However, no such meeting was held. I am familiar with many of the ardent Europeans who live in Galway and who would have been only too happy to attend a public meeting and offer their views.

I take the Chairman's point about the Charter of Fundamental Rights in respect of which he is involved on behalf of the Oireachtas. The Government is considering the implications that adopting such a charter would have on countries with written constitutions and those with unwritten constitutions. This work has been undertaken as a result of a mandate received from the Cologne Summit. The Cologne remit specifies that the job of this group is to make more accessible people's understanding of their rights and what European citizenship means in the context of existing Treaty provisions. Our position, and I believe that of a significant number of EU partners based on our discussions in Feira last week, is that the charter should take the form of a political declaration and the decision on the nature of the charter would be taken at the European Council in Nice in December. However, even the French Presidency, which has indicated to us that it wishes to broaden the discussion into economic and social rights, as the Chairman has said, recognises the practical reality that the idea of this becoming a decision in Nice, which would indicate giving a legal basis in the Treaties to any such charter, is not one that would meet with the required approval of a sufficient number of member states. Clearly, despite the best work that can be done by that committee, it is unlikely that the charter would be in a sufficiently ready state even to adopt it if such were the mood of the Council. The idea is that the first draft will be available at Biarritz in October. We will wait and see if that can be achieved.

The mandate given to the convention, the body formulating the charter, stated that account should be taken of economic and social rights as contained in the European Social Charter and the Community charter on the fundamental rights of workers. Our view is that, where economic and social rights are not now individually enforceable, the charter should not be used to confer such status on those rights. Our approach is certainly not a maximising one for the reasons the Chairman has outlined and for other practical reasons in terms of avoiding a duplication of justiciable rights, especially taking the European Convention on Human Rights into consideration where the court in Strasbourg deals with that anyway. I do not see the benefit of having a duplicated court system for those matters, and this charter of rights could well overlap with existing European Convention on Human Rights issues.

Regarding the McKenna Supreme Court judgment, which was raised and which is a relevant point, the Government was prevented by the terms of that judgment from spending public money for the purpose of promoting a positive outcome to a referendum on the Treaty of Amsterdam. It is considered that this constraint also applies to indirect funding of the yes campaign through the European Movement and other non-governmental organisations and these restrictions, therefore, continue to apply. The money which is being given in the Supplementary Estimate can be used by the European Movement for the purpose of its activities. It is in when a referendum is required that the McKenna judgment comes into play.

We are proceeding with our negotiating strategy on the Intergovernmental Conference, backed up by the legal services division, that no Treaty amendment is envisaged in relation to European security and defence policy based on the documentation submitted and adopted at Feira which dealt with the progress that has been made arising from Helsinki regarding those areas of policy. We believe there is a need to proceed with an Intergovernmental Conference which avoids substantive treaty amendment and, based on the Feira outcome, both in relation to the Presidency papers, which were adopted, and the conclusions which were adopted after the European Council meeting, we are happy with the way the matters are being considered at present.

The French Presidency is indicating a somewhat ambitious agenda which must be counteracted by the fact that a restrictive agenda will be required if a successful outcome at Nice is to be achieved. Foreign Minister Vedrine is very much of that pragmatic mode. President Chirac had perhaps indicated a more ambitious agenda in his comments but whether that is achievable will be better assessed at Biarritz.

Those are the issues which have been raised by the Deputies. I thank them for their support for the Estimate. I take on board many of the points which were well made, and they will be communicated to the European Movement in the context of the Estimate being adopted.

Thank you, Minister, for dealing with those points. What you had to say is interesting. The cut-off point between preliminaries and the lead up to a referendum could be a difficult one to interpret. It is very hard to see how a worthwhile Intergovernmental Conference would produce amendments that would not require a referendum here based on the Crotty judgment. It could be argued that the embargo on the spending of money does not commence on the day the referendum is formally called. Usually these things can be seen coming for perhaps many months before. However, that is more a legal matter than one which need concern the committee, but it is one the Minister and his Department cannot ignore given the difficulties created by the McKenna judgment.

That is a point well made, Chairman. I will indicate to the European Movement that we need to clarify the legal position before it spends this money in any area so that we are all satisfied that we do not have to revisit this.

That is very wise. Is any grant-in-aid of this or any other type made to the Institute for European Affairs?

A grant-in-aid is made to it, and the fact that we have brought in a Supplementary Estimate gives me a worrying feeling that I might hear from it again.

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