Skip to main content
Normal View

SELECT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 14 Jun 2005

Vote 28 — Foreign Affairs (Revised).

We are meeting to consider the Revised Estimates for 2005 in respect of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Vote 28 — Foreign Affairs, and Vote 29 — International Co-operation. On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, as well as officials from the Department who are as follows: Mr. Dermot Gallagher, Secretary General; Mr. David Cooney, political director; Mr. John Neary, assistant secretary, consular division; Ms Marie Cross, assistant secretary, corporate services; Mr. Brendan Rogers, assistant secretary, development co-operation directorate; Mr. Paddy Fay, counsellor, principal officer equivalent, DCD; Ms Anne Barrington, counsellor, corporate services division; Ms Kathleen White, counsellor, EU division; Mr. Karl Gardner, first secretary, corporate services division; Mr. Richard Moore, adviser; and Mr. Ciaran O'Cuinn, adviser. They are all welcome and I thank them for coming.

We have scheduled the meeting to last from now until approximately 6 p.m., with the Minister, initially dealing with Vote 28 and the Minister of State, dealing with Vote 29. Is that agreed? Agreed.

As a matter of information, will they be taken in that order?

Yes. We will begin with an opening statement by the Minister. The Minister of State will make an opening statement later. A proposed timetable for today's meeting has been circulated. It will allow for opening statements by the Minister and the Opposition spokespersons, followed by an open discussion on the individual subheads by way of a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Members have been circulated with briefing material on the Revised Estimates supplied by the Department of Foreign Affairs. The brief provides details on the individual subheads. Members should note that we are considering the Estimates. They may discuss issues relevant to the individual subheads. They may not recommend increases or decreases in the Estimates and there will be no votes.

I call on the Minister to make his opening statement.

I thank the select committee for giving me the opportunity to come before it. I will discuss Vote 28 and leave Vote 29 to my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan.

The Department underlines the significance of the large increases in Vote 29, which we give towards the eradication of poverty and the promotion of sustainable development. ODA this year will reach €546 million when contributions from other Departments are factored in. It is the highest ever allocated in the history of the aid programme and well above the European Union average. We are committed to increasing this allocation by €65 million in both 2006 and 2007. This will bring aid by Ireland to €1.8 billion for the years 2005 to 2007, inclusive. That is a significant achievement. We should be proud of our exemplary aid record when we consider the quality of our programme, which was confirmed and reiterated in a report this week.

As regards Vote 28, the total amount allocated for 2005 is more than €228 million. With revenue from passport, consular and other fees expected to be €40 million this year, the net allocation to the Department is just over €188 million. It is not possible to review all areas of the Department's work. However, the resources allocated to the Department mean that it will continue its efforts to promote and protect Ireland's interests abroad. Such interests include the protection of Irish citizens abroad. The importance of the Department's role in this regard was demonstrated during the tragedy brought about by the tsunami in south-east Asia.

The Department will continue its work in the areas of trade, investment and culture. We will continue with our measured expansion, which will see the opening of six new missions this year in Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Romania and Vietnam. This will complete our programme of opening missions in the European Union and accession states and will extend our network in Asia. Our expansion in Europe is in response to the new and more complex realities in which we find ourselves in an enlarged European Union. A new mission in Vietnam will allow us to extend our aid programme to that country and also to develop trade links in the region in line with the Government's Asian strategy.

As members will be aware, the Department has invested in recent years, particularly this year, in the passport service in order to provide a better service for the public and produce more secure passports. The funding in the Vote means we will continue with this investment in 2005. The new passport has been in production since last year and has received widespread praise for its excellent quality. Some 73,000 new passports were issued by the Department in May alone, the highest on record for any month. There was a 12% increase in the number of passports issued between January and May this year, compared with the same period last year. This proves that the investment the Oireachtas has dedicated to the passport service in recent years is now bearing fruit. With this funding available and in partnership with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, my Department is also developing a new visa system which will help modernise and streamline the visa process.

That is an outline of ongoing developments in the Department of Foreign Affairs. Today, however, with the committee's permission, I would like to concentrate on four key areas of work, namely, the development of a programme to support the Irish abroad, ongoing developments in the European Union in the wake of the outcome of the referenda in France and the Netherlands, an update on my role as envoy to the United Nations and the Secretary General in the lead up to the millennium summit in September and our ongoing work to achieve the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.

Regarding the Irish abroad, our key objective last year was to secure a significant increase in financial support for emigrants. I am happy to say that I achieved that objective. In 2005 my Department's funding for emigrant services is €8.273 million, an increase of 63% on the previous year. That is the highest ever allocation and an important milestone in our developing relationship with the Irish emigrant community abroad. During my travels to America and the UK, all the community groups were very complimentary about the increased allocation.

The Government's commitment to our emigrants has never been in doubt. Our capacity to support them financially is strong and growing. Funding for emigrant services is now eight times higher than in 1997 when the Government entered office. This year's substantial allocations, together with the establishment of a dedicated Irish abroad unit in my Department last year, reflect our firm determination to promote and protect the interests of our community abroad, particularly the more vulnerable and marginalised elements.

I am pleased to note that groups in the voluntary sector at home and abroad recognise that determination and have warmly welcomed developments. In turn, we are deeply appreciative of the work of those frontline organisations whose sensitive and effective activities make a critical contribution towards improving the lives of our communities abroad. We are determined to continue the financial support and maintain very open lines of communication with them.

We want to ensure that we are aware of and continue to respond to the needs of those at greatest risk of exclusion, in particular. The bulk of this year's allocation will be distributed to organisations helping vulnerable and marginalised Irish people in Britain. The DION committee which advises me on the welfare of our community in Britain is considering grant applications and will forward its recommendations to me shortly. I expect that grants to groups in Britain this year will amount to €7 million, representing an increase of 60% on last year's final allocation. I also intend to significantly increase the funding available to groups in the United States. Irish emigrant centres in the US provide invaluable support and advice for our community and their work is of particular relevance at this complex time of change in that country, especially for the undocumented Irish people resident there. Funding by my Department to those groups increased by 83% last year. We will continue to support their important work.

I pay tribute to the work of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs which, together with other Members of the Oireachtas, has worked tirelessly on behalf of the undocumented Irish in the US. The committee visited the US last week and did excellent work. I have seen all the press comments in the US in that regard and compliment the members who travelled. Quite apart from my trips, those of other Ministers and the work of the embassy and consulates in the US, it is important that parliamentary pressure be exerted in respect of this issue.

The work that I did will greatly support efforts being made to lobby hard and obtain the best possible outcome for the undocumented Irish in the US. We have been able to significantly increase our funding to organisations in Ireland engaged in providing pre-departure information, assisting returning emigrants and enhancing co-ordination between emigrant organisations at home and abroad. Earlier this year I was happy to announce grants totalling €225,000 in support of such projects. My Department's funding for initiatives in Ireland is already up 72% on last year.

We will continue to ensure that the needs of our emigrants abroad are accorded the highest priority and that our response is effective and developed further in the period ahead. The funding allocated this year has enabled us to make significant headway in the area.

I will now turn to a major policy issue for all Europeans, that of the European constitution. The "NO" votes in the referenda on the European constitution in France and the Netherlands have created a complex and difficult situation. However, the Government remains committed to the constitution and continues to make preparations for its ratification. As members are aware, we have published the Twenty-eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2005. It will be important to have a full collective discussion at this week's European Council. We hope the way forward may be somewhat clearer thereafter.

The constitution primarily consolidates and restates the basic rules covering the European Union. These have been updated and adapted to serve the recently enlarged Union of 25 countries, soon to be 27, with a population of 450 million. The basic rules have not fundamentally altered. The institutional balance and policy mix which have served us well over the last 30 years or so are not in question.

Europe has been good for Ireland. In addition to immense financial transfers, membership of the European Union has delivered access to a large market and the right to a seat at the table where the market is regulated. That access to the decision-making process has enabled Ireland, as a small, open, exporting economy, to promote and protect its interests and to thrive.

When we joined the European Union, we collectively had personal incomes at approximately 60% of the European average. Today, our incomes are well above that average. Trade deficits were the norm but ours is now a robustly exporting country. We then had rights to a market of a few million people, now we have rights and opportunities in a market of several hundred million. We were vulnerable to the whims of others regarding where and how we could sell our goods, now we sit at a rule-making table of the most powerful trading bloc in the world. The record is positive and we have also benefited politically, socially and culturally, widening our horizons without losing our identity.

For 30 years we have played a full role in setting and abiding by the rules and wielding influence in the Union. Yesterday's agreement at the GAERC to accord official and working status in the European Union to the Irish language was good for Ireland and the Union. The agreement demonstrates that the voice of a small member state in an enlarged Union can be heard and its traditions respected. The support of member states for the Government's proposal shows that the principle of solidarity is alive and well in today's Union. This is the context within which we must see the European constitution from Ireland's perspective. Would the constitution help Europe to function better without changing its character? The Government believes the answer is yes. That is why we remain committed to the European constitution.

I was honoured last April when the UN Secretary General Mr. Annan, appointed me as one of five envoys charged with advocating the balanced set of measures proposed in his report entitled, In Larger Freedom. My role is to encourage governments to take the decisions necessary to ensure success at the UN summit in September. We need to restore the momentum to achieve the millennium development goals at that summit and we need a more credible and effective system of collective security.

The UN's human rights machinery must function as the charter intended. It must not be used as a shield for human rights abusers and the UN's structures, institutions and management practice must be reformed in order that these objectives can be achieved. In his report the Secretary General put forward a set of recommendations that offer the best opportunity available to achieve these aims. He appreciates, however, that it is not just a matter of developing the recommendations. Political momentum in support of them must be generated and sustained. This momentum must be built despite deeply held concerns on the part of members and, at times, dramatically contrasting perspectives. My appointment as envoy indicates how much Ireland values the United Nations and vice versa.

I have also been gratified by the level of interest shown by all sides of the Oireachtas in respect of the Government's approach to the summit. The Secretary General asked me to focus my efforts on Europe. None of the envoys is, however, confined in his or her activities to any one geographic area and in addition to my meetings with European colleagues, I have recently undertaken several bilateral meetings as envoy with colleagues from a range of Latin American and Arabian states. To date, I have met 31 of my counterparts in capitals and at meetings, including the recent Council of Europe summit in Warsaw, the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council in Sweden, the EU-Rio group meeting and the Euro-Mediterranean ministerial meeting in Brussels. I have an ongoing programme of meetings into July and in the lead-up to the September summit. I will continue my efforts to assist the Secretary General in achieving a positive outcome at that summit.

The Chairman invited me to come before the committee. I understand some members were of the view that I should have come sooner because decisions were pending. I assure members that no decisions are pending as such and that ongoing consultations will continue until September. I am more than willing to brief members, whether of the joint committee or the select committee, when my diary permits. I am aware that they have been lobbied on these matters, particularly in regard to the Security Council.

I wish to address some of the ongoing developments in respect of the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. During the past year the Government has continued its efforts to achieve a full implementation of the Agreement. In particular, we have worked to obtain definitive closure on paramilitary activity and capability and to secure the stable operation of the political institutions on an inclusive basis. The talks convened by the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister at Leeds Castle last September made encouraging progress in this direction. Discussions and contacts continued with the parties during the autumn with a view to obtaining a comprehensive agreement that would resolve the crux issues.

Both Governments tabled their proposals for such a comprehensive agreement on 8 December. The political aspects of those proposals secured the assent of the largest Unionist and Nationalist parties, namely, the DUP and Sinn Féin. Regrettably, however, agreement was not reached in regard to the transparency aspects of arms decommissioning and the ending of IRA criminality. While the proposals of 8 December failed to achieve the required comprehensive agreement, they represent, particularly in respect of the constructive DUP engagement, considerable progress. However, the IRA Northern Bank raid of 20 December was a major setback for this process and raised profound questions about the strategic intentions of the provisional movement.

On 25 January the Government met the Sinn Féin leadership and informed it that continuing IRA paramilitarism and criminality represent the primary obstacle to the full implementation of the Agreement and that unless this was definitively removed from the equation, there would be no prospect of restoring inclusive government in Northern Ireland. Mr. Gerry Adams's appeal on 6 April to the IRA represents the Sinn Féin response to the message received from the Government in January. We are told that the IRA is involved in a process of internal consultation, the outcome of which is awaited. I sincerely hope it delivers the clarity and certainty that is required if there is to be any chance of restoring the political institutions in Northern Ireland. Unless the outcome clearly and decisively addresses the issue of IRA paramilitary and criminal activity and the complete decommissioning of its weapons, it will not have the confidence-building impact required to get the devolved institutions up and running again.

Assuming that the IRA meets the challenge of this closure, there will then be a major onus of responsibility on those in the DUP, as the political leaders of unionism, to engage positively with a view to restoring the power-sharing institutions in Northern Ireland. With the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I will meet the DUP in London tomorrow. If IRA paramilitarism is resolved and this is objectively verified by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning and the Independent Monitoring Commission, there is no valid reason that the DUP should not embrace the practice of partnership politics.

The Good Friday Agreement is much wider than the operation of devolved government in Northern Ireland. It also involves the operation of the constitutions that cover the key North-South and east-west dimensions. As a result of suspension, the North-South Ministerial Council cannot meet. Nevertheless, the Government attaches the highest priority to maintaining and advancing the North-South dimension. We are committed to driving forward practical North-South co-operation to the mutual benefit of people on both parts of the island and will proactively pursue this agenda with the British Government during the coming months.

On the east-west track and despite suspension, the Government is pleased that the British-Irish Council continues its valuable work of promoting co-operation in a wide range of practical areas, meeting most recently at summit level in the Isle of Man last month.

The Good Friday Agreement is also about normalising society in Northern Ireland in terms of policing, justice, human rights and equality. A great deal of constructive change has taken place in these areas and progress on policing has been a major achievement of the Agreement. Under the leadership of the policing board and the Chief Constable, policing has moved to embrace the vision of the Patten report. Community policing is a partnership between the police force and the community it seeks to serve. Where the SDLP has shown leadership and courage, Sinn Féin has shown caution and conservatism. The continued refusal of Sinn Féin to join in this key project is an obstacle to its full completion.

In terms of making justice available to all, Sinn Féin's reluctance to engage with or encourage others to engage with the PSNI to bring the killers of Robert McCartney to justice hampered and delayed that investigation. This is a particularly high profile case but it is only one among many frustrated by Sinn Féin's attitude to policing and the justice system.

Inquiries have been launched into the murders of Robert Hamill, Rosemary Nelson and Billy Wright and my Department will monitor and report on progress made in these cases. Regarding the proposed inquiry into the murder of Pat Finucane, the committee is aware that the Taoiseach shares the concerns of the Finucane family about the new British Inquiries Act under which the inquiry is to be convened. While the difference of view between the Governments on this issue is substantial, talks at official level are ongoing.

Reconciliation in Northern Ireland and between both parts of the island is a long-term project which requires sustained commitment. Through its operation of the reconciliation fund and the supportive role it plays in the International Fund for Ireland and the EU PEACE programme, my Department continues to promote contact, dialogue and reconciliation between all traditions on this island.

The Government will continue to press for progress in the weeks and months ahead. The Taoiseach and Prime Minister remain in close and regular contact and will meet again tomorrow in London. I will be part of a delegation led by the Taoiseach to meet the DUP. An important meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference will take place later this month. We will avail of all of these opportunities for contact and engagement with the parties in Northern Ireland. All Northern Ireland parties with significant mandates, including the SDLP, the UUP, Alliance, the DUP and Sinn Féin, have important roles to play and we value and appreciate all contributions. The full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement remains an imperative because it is what the people of Ireland solemnly voted for and what we must deliver.

I touched on a number of key policy areas which I know are of interest to committee members. I did not address a number of other policy matters but perhaps the question and answer session will allow us to elicit some information. I understand my colleague will also speak.

I thank the Minister. Our approach will be to commence the discussion on the Minister's contribution at this stage and then return for the Minister of State's contribution.

I apologise on behalf of my colleague, Deputy Bernard Allen, who has another engagement and cannot attend today. I also apologise in advance to the Minister because I must leave for the Order of Business during the meeting.

I compliment the Minister on the comprehensive tour of his Department's important policy areas and will comment briefly on some issues raised. I am sure other members will deal with the other matters as it is impossible to cover such an expansive area.

I wish to comment favourably on the contribution made by the people to overseas development assistance, which is done of their own volition and with encouragement, and on the Department's quick response to recent world calls for assistance. When a disaster affects people on the other side of the world, the tendency is to think it happened "over there". However, the people, like the Department, responded extremely generously.

We were concerned during the early stages of the year that the Department would emasculate its overseas development programme before it started. Thankfully, it did not go that far. However, considerable work remains to achieve the UN targets, the sight of which matter should never be lost.

I wish to comment on the new missions which have been proposed in Europe and Vietnam. The importance of these missions cannot be overstated. As trade increases between Ireland and different regions of the world, it is imperative that we maintain existing trade links while expanding into new areas. We will have to compete at every level and our chances of doing so are improved with well placed missions. I compliment our missions on the tremendous work they have done. While headlines during the silly season may occasionally ask whether money is being wasted on such ventures, it should not be forgotten that these missions operate 365 days per year and perform an important and necessary task.

Some years ago, as a Minister of State in a different Department, I had occasion to examine the work of the DION group and various emigration support organisations from the US, Britain, Australia and other countries throughout the world. I was struck that while many Irish did well abroad, a requirement remains for the type of supports noted by the Minister in the context of the Irish in Britain and elsewhere. Some of the people concerned are growing older and feel vulnerable because they do not qualify for the state assisted or insurance based pensions of the countries in which they reside.

While the moneys made available for funding this year, €8.2 million or €8.7 million, are welcome, they are not sufficient to meet needs. This support programme should be examined with a view to identifying the needs of these people who left this country during harsh economic times. They left because there was nothing here for them. There would be less for the rest of us if they had remained. These people often feel that they have been forgotten but we should never forget them. In meeting them, I discovered that they do not necessarily seek votes but want to be recognised and remembered. I compliment Fr. Paul Byrne and various Irish emigrant support groups on their efforts to achieve recognition for these people's needs. I support this concept and ask that it be supported.

The number of undocumented Irish in the US is considerably higher than is generally acknowledged. The Minister has begun to address this issue and has entered correspondence with me on it. It is essential to recognise that these people are Irish. While it may be said that they emigrated of their own accord or that it was not necessary to do so, we should not forget them. Much work is being done behind the scenes and valuable contacts are being established with the US authorities. That work should continue unabated. It is important that we emphasise in the nicest but most vocal way to our colleagues in the United States that Irish people have made a fair contribution to its economy, as they have done to many other economies as well, over a long period, that they are in difficulty and may be vulnerable because they are undocumented. I ask the Minister to use all his influence to bring to the attention of the US authorities at the earliest opportunity the need for an amnesty that will allow them the status to leave and return to the country if they so wish.

The Minister mentioned the ongoing developments in the European Union in the wake of the referenda in France and the Netherlands. One aspect that would concern me, as a former member of the Joint Committee on European Affairs, is the degree to which there seemed to be almost a celebration of what was seen as an arrest of the forward march of the European peoples. It seems to have become a populist notion that Europe is growing too fast and is too large and that, for some reason, we should reject it or slow it down. That would not be in the interests of Ireland or its people. It would not be in the interests of the European Union to allow that notion to progress. It would be hugely detrimental to that concept and the European project.

I am amazed when I hear people express their glee about the euro falling against the dollar. I cannot understand it because for the past three years the euro has been rising against the dollar, with consequential difficulties for some exports. I see this matter in terms of swings and roundabouts. It should not be seen as a failure of the system and I know the Minister will emphasise that quite clearly.

I totally agree with the Minister's view that any notion of Ireland and its population coming to the conclusion, for one reason or another, that the European Union is bad, that it should be changed and everyone should go off in their own direction is not acceptable. That happened previously and all European countries had an experience that was not fruitful or beneficial for anybody inside or outside Europe. We need not cite chapter and verse of history to fully recognise this.

I strongly support the need for the continued recognition of the European project and the European ideal, with a view to making the European Union more accountable. In large organisations, bureaucracy tends to grow. It even grows in this country from time to time and I could highlight several instances of it. With today's advances in technology, there is a tendency for bureaucracy to grow. That is probably as much a fault of the European Union as it is of any institution worldwide but it should be dealt with. The manner in which information is given to the people throughout Europe who will make a decision on this matter is important, particularly as we approach the referenda likely still to take place. Information will play a big part in the Europe of the future. The more information people possess, the better their capacity to make decisions. Let us not forget that a negative decision is always easy. A positive decision may require people to show more responsibility. It is our job to give leadership. We are supposed to tell it as it is. Let us hope matters work out right.

I compliment the Minister on his appointment as United Nations envoy. The appointment is a great honour for Ireland. I do not doubt that he will endeavour to discharge his duties in that regard in an exemplary manner.

Ireland can play a major role on the world stage. One of the areas on which considerable concentration must be focused is that relating to war, starvation and human rights abuses in Africa. I accept that such difficulties arise in many jurisdictions worldwide but in the African context one must also take account of the fact that a considerable and increasing amount of development aid is falling into the wrong hands. The committee has discussed this matter at numerous meetings. During the past ten years I tabled parliamentary questions about this issue and I sometimes did not obtain a great deal of recognition for doing so. However, with the dramatic increase in the amount of aid and the announcement in recent days that the debt is to be written off, for which I congratulate the Prime Ministers, there is a greater danger than ever that some of the benefits may fall into the wrong hands. I, therefore, ask that particular care is taken to ensure that this does not happen because it would bring the whole effort into disrepute.

On Northern Ireland, one of the problems with the Good Friday Agreement and its failure to achieve closure relates to trust and confidence. In the past couple of years a number of incidents took place which did nothing to establish either trust or confidence. I refer, for example, to the break-in at the Unionist party headquarters. I remember drawing attention to that because it is not something about which people would enthuse. In addition, it would not establish confidence or trust. The response I got was that it was only normal political espionage. People forget that a US President had to resign over something similar.

The establishment of trust is very important in this context. There is a difficult road ahead. The game is there to be played. It is important that we stay with it, encourage people and emphasise areas of common ground. In addition, each side must spend less time confronting the other with a view to identifying reasons that they cannot establish common ground. I do not know if that is achievable.

Some of the things I hear occasionally make me despair. For whatever reason, we are where we are and water has already passed under the bridge. Let us try to learn from experience and ensure that mistakes are not repeated. What happens in Northern Ireland has a huge impact on the economic and social life of this island, North and South. I am, therefore, supportive of the thrust of the argument in that particular area.

I welcome the opportunity of hearing the Minister and the Minister of State outline their policies in terms of Vote 28 which relates to the Department in general and Vote 29 which relates to development aid and with which we can deal in further detail later.

I welcome the Minister's description of the role of the Department of Foreign Affairs as promoting and protecting Ireland's values and interests overseas. It is an important phrase because there is a long history of the use of the word "interests". The Department of Foreign Affairs has been at its worst historically when it has spoken exclusively of interests. It has been at its best when it not only has included values but when it has also given primacy to such values. I will return to that point later because it is of relevance to the role of the Minister, since his appointment as envoy, on which I congratulate him, in terms of the reform of the United Nations.

I want to take up some of the points the Minister raised. In the short time available and perhaps in a general discussion one cannot include every area of concentration. The Middle East is of crucial importance, not only in terms of stability but also in the context of the relationships between significant powers, militarisation and the possibility of a dialogue that will allow democratic forms to emerge which are indigenous and which have the support of the populations of different countries affected by the conflict in the Middle East. In that respect, I might, as somebody who visited Palestine recently, say en passant that I deplore and deeply regret the return to state execution in Gaza. That cannot be justified by the appalling events that have taken place through a settlement in either Gaza or the West Bank. Neither can it possibly be justified on the basis of deterrence.

The argument about deterrence in respect of capital punishment was discredited at the end of the 1950s or in the early 1960s. It has only been used in this century and late in the last century by countries which have only been interested in practising revenge.

As regards some of the topics the Minister raised such as the Irish abroad whom the Chairman and I visited in March, some new dynamics have emerged. I welcome the fact there is a full representative now representing the Irish abroad. That is a good development. However, the nature of the problem has changed. I recall that 58,000 people left Ireland in 1955. The figure did not fall below 45,000 in any year between 1955 and 1960. The people fleeing the country during those years had particular characteristics. They were mostly from rural areas and there were significant gender differences in terms of the numbers who left. When emigration returned in the 1980s, a more highly educated stream of people left the country. There were not the same gender differences and there was a wider dispersal through opportunity structures in Britain.

Those who emigrated in the 1950s now have a specific set of needs. Their community centres need capital as well as current investment. We must interpret what has been allocated to provide for the Irish in Britain. Many of the basic premises which were supported by the Irish community in Britain and also, to a small degree, by the Government now need refurbishment and some must be purchased. It is clear that in the decade ahead they will not only be used by the Irish but by other minorities with whom they must share facilities. That creates an immense challenge in terms of the role of local authorities in Britain, the Irish community and the Government. It is also the basis for the high figure of €23 million quoted by the committee that examined the needs of the Irish in Britain. I interpret the provision in Vote 28 in that context.

As regards the other points the Minister made, I found the title — In Larger Freedom — given by Secretary General Annan to his document on reforming the United Nations unusual. I was also amazed that it made such little reference to some fundamental work which had been carried out on United Nations reform before now. In Larger Freedom does not come next or near the quality of the work published in 1991 by the Hammarskjöld Foundation under the authorship of Erskine Childers and Brian Urquhart. In the three documents which were published in that period, there was a clear proposal for an organisation chart which would have made the United Nations effective as an organisation. There was a suggestion, for example, that a permanent assistant secretary general post should be created which would have enabled the Secretary General to fulfil his more global role.

Erskine Childers III was one of the most distinguished Irish people who ever worked abroad for an international institution. Those books which he published in joint authorship with Brian Urquhart were excellent in terms of the internal organisation of the United Nations and also in terms of the reform of the committees within the United Nations, including the decolonisation committee, protectorates, etc. There was a model put forward that could have been used.

I contrast the specificity of these proposals with the vagueness of model A and model B in terms of the representation on the Security Council. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs has received representations from neighbours of countries which are seeking a form of either primary or secondary representation on a permanent or temporary basis on the Security Council. I am not sure if the Minister has asked the 30 people he has visited — I congratulate him in that regard — whether model A or model B would be preferred or whether there should be no model at all. I do not know if he has formed an opinion on this matter.

Regarding the report, In Larger Freedom, perhaps one of the most incredibly important reforms crying out to be effected relates to a fundamental matter that most people avoid. It concerns what one might term reformed concepts of sovereignty. The great rush of countries into the United Nations in the 1960s was an exercise in sovereignty. It has always been interpreted by them as something very important.

I recall another unpublished work that Erskine Childers sent to me. When the African countries were being decolonised, most of the ceremonies took place at night in football stadiums so that people would not see the Union Jack coming down. As the lights went up, so did the new flag. A BBC reporter commented at one such ceremony that a new country had joined the ranks of free nations and was free to make its own mistakes. He was fired from the BBC as a result of objections to that remark and the academic world gained immediately.

Sovereignty has been important but we cannot really reform the United Nations without addressing that issue. Work has been developed by such people as Dr. Sahnoun, who was the UN representative in Somalia. He has advanced the concept of humanitarian protection in the international literature. The concept of humanitarian intervention has been abused by major powers since Mussolini in north Africa. Humanitarian protection could start off a wonderful dialogue, since to be invited in rather than invade assumes that one has made progress towards the concept of global rights. The question of universal rights would have enabled us to engage with the Islamic world, if it is not simply to be western, and other cultures. All those issues were missing from In Larger Freedom, that extraordinarily titled document.

There are good things in the report which I support. I refer, for example, to the practical and short-term agenda of asking for real and serious commitment and a report on the millennium development goals. Then again, those goals were not critiqued in terms of the two major international financial institutions that have spun away from the United Nations. The International Monetary Fund and the World Bank were originally responsible to the economic committee and, through it, to the Secretary General of the UN. There is no discussion on that. Might it not have been better to have addressed the issue of reforming the international financial institutions? Proposals have been around for some time to create a kind of economic security council in which issues of aid, trade and debt could be examined. This would really get the UN involved in a significant way. However, the opportunity has been lost.

I found the report very good regarding the eight millennium development goals but I cannot see how it will be able to deliver on the ground. I will give only one example because I do not wish to delay proceedings. We certainly need a cohesive strategy covering aid, trade and debt. I differ from the Minister in that I get the impression that a real attempt is being made to combine them in a cohesive strategy that would benefit poorer countries. However, there is no discussion of the forms of capital and capital-intensive technology. The debate at the end of the 1970s was of higher quality than that taking place now. The core of the development debate is whether we should opt for indigenous or intermediate technology and would that not include more of the population. If it was combined with education, would there not be participation? Capital-intensive technology was much closer to the corrupting influence of multinational corporations, donor governments and receiving elites.

When we discuss matters of this nature in the current atmosphere, it is important for those who introduce the topic of corruption to follow through on it. There are two sides to a corrupt relationship. It should not be used cynically to distract from real achievements.

I welcome the achievement regarding Irish. Fáiltím roimhe. Tááthas orm gur tharla sé, agus tréaslaím leis an Aire agus leis an Roinn.

I wish the Minister well with regard to the Good Friday Agreement, in which I believe.

It is time to say to those who lecture us about being one sided that the removal of all arms has been always an aim of the Good Friday Agreement. That includes the arms of loyalist paramilitaries as well as the IRA. That has been always the view of Government.

One wants to see the demilitarisation of Northern Ireland such that there would be a lower state military presence and no subversive activity from either side. When people lock themselves into their positions they create a difficult circumstance for the Government. The Labour Party supports any initiatives that will break the deadlock.

Deputy Gregory will speak as a member of the Technical Group.

I am not a spokesperson for the Technical Group.

We have not formed a party yet.

The Deputy is working on it.

Not quite. I have been an Independent Deputy for a long time and think I will stay that way.

I agree with the Minister that Ireland's aid allocation of €1.8 billion in the next three years is a significant achievement and one we should continue to try to better. It is regrettable the Taoiseach made a very public commitment some time ago which was not carried through. Everyone, however, can be proud of the contribution this country makes.

I am also glad to see that the funding for emigrant services has increased by more than 60% since last year and that the bulk of that is going to the Irish in Britain. I am sure we all agree we owe a significant debt to those people. I hope the allocation to the emigrant services in Britain continues to rise.

I also join Deputy Higgins in welcoming the decision to grant official recognition to the Irish language and pay tribute to the Irish language organisations that campaigned very effectively to bring about that. The Irish language will now take its rightful place in Europe.

Deputy Higgins also referred to the Middle East which I visited recently. For a considerable time I have regarded the Palestinian situation as one of the great injustices in the world, perpetrated against a largely defenceless people. Despite holding that view I was shocked to see the lengths to which the deliberate policy of suppression and impoverishment goes. Apartheid regions have been created on the West Bank where Israeli settlements are built in the most dominant locations, in regions previously occupied by Palestinian villages from which the most arable land is cut off in a deliberate attempt to impoverish and ultimately drive out the Palestinian people. Tunnels link the settlements and motorways are built for the exclusive use of settlers and denied to anyone else. World bodies are doing little that is effective to address this problem. I mention this matter because I am aware the Minister intends to travel to Palestine in the coming months. I am not sure whether he will be in a position to take an initiative on this issue but I hope he will do all that is possible. If what is happening to the Palestinian people were happening in any other country and if it was being perpetrated by a state without the backing by the United States, I have no doubt the United Nations would implement sanctions against the aggressor state. Not only is this not happening but the EU has a preferential trade agreement with the state that is imposing this injustice on a largely defenceless people.

Nevertheless, I pay tribute to the work of the Irish aid organisations in the area. It is ironic that the project we visited most recently is one where funding from this country is helping to develop an access route for Palestinian farmers whose existing link routes had been blockaded and cut off by Israeli forces, thus denying them access to markets and disrupting the links between the land they are cultivating and the village in which they live. Money from this State is helping to provide a new access route that will allow these farmers to continue to survive on the land. While I agree with Deputy Durkan that Africa presents an enormous challenge for the world, the money that is sent from this country to Palestine plays a useful and necessary role in that area. I hope that funding will continue to be increased.

Will the Minister comment on today's opinion poll results which indicate that a majority of those who intend to vote will reject the EU constitution? Has he any view on the argument that there is little point or logic in proceeding with a referendum on a constitutional treaty that has already been rejected by other EU states?

We will now have a question and answer session until approximately 4.20 p.m. I have some questions for the Minister. Will he explain the policy in regard to United States citizens who wish to live and work in Ireland? Members of this committee were in the United States last week as part of our efforts to obtain visas for the undocumented Irish. We received great assistance from the Department in this regard and took part in a number of useful meetings. This visit allowed us to gain an appreciation of the difficulty of getting further visa extensions for undocumented Irish people but we will continue our efforts in this area.

What is the quid pro quo for United States citizens who want to come to this State? I have made representations of behalf of one young man who has been trying for some time to get established here. I may as well be banging my head against a wall because I do not seem to be getting anywhere. This man has a grandmother who is 1/16th or one eighth Irish but he has had no success in his efforts to become established. While we are doing all this work at the other end, I wonder if there is any quid pro quo in this regard? There will be quite a battle between the Kennedy-McCain and the Kyl-Cornyn Bills, as the Department is aware. The Kennedy-McCain proposal offers many possibilities and we look forward to working with the Department on it.

I welcome the extra missions in the 25 EU countries, Romania and Vietnam. Our missions are generally small but they are highly effective. They provide a crucial presence for Ireland and fulfil their role extremely well. They must always fight above their weight but their dedication and the work they do is extraordinary.

Africa must be part of mainline policy. It is a forgotten continent and our missionaries, NGOs and embassies have done tremendous work there. I congratulate the Minister and his Department on waiving the debt. I know the Minister pressed hard for this for a long time at all fora. Ireland did not ease the pressure but went further and gave €30 million in order to join with others in relieving debt. It did so despite the fact that we provide clean money in respect of which debt does not arise. I am aware of and recognise the work done by the Department on this issue.

Members visited the Middle East which is going through a difficult and important period. We must progress the road map and view any variations within it as mere practicalities. Deputy Gregory highlighted some of the serious problems. It needs close support and assistance now, not just our diplomatic attention.

I do not know if the Minister is aware of the problem we encountered at Bethlehem University which is run by the De La Salle brothers where grant assistance which helped to introduce excellent projects and courses for Palestinians is being reduced. One of the courses provides training on how to give birth assistance and this was required because Palestinians were not allowed to get to hospitals. It would be better to delay such a reduction and maintain that support which has been recognised and welcomed at a time when the Palestinians needed it. I do not wish to take sides on the matter and we are aware of Israeli security concerns. This is an extremely complex issue but we need to be involved as closely as possible.

Like my colleagues, I welcome the increase in support for Irish emigrant groups. As a student, I worked with many such people on building sites and I know the hard work they did to send money home to educate younger brothers to support parents. Many of them have since fallen on hard times. When I studied commerce, the heading "Invisible Exports" always included emigrants' remittances. It is timely that we return some of the money they sent to help make this the wealthy nation it is today.

Tááthas orm faoin an obair atá déanta ag an Aire ar son na Gaeilge. Tá mé an-sásta go bhfuil sí glactha mar theanga oifigiúil ag an Aontas Eorpach. Más maith is mithid, mar a deirtear, so tá sé in am go nglacfaí an teanga mar theanga oifigiúil.

The recognition of Gaeilge as an official language will make accessibility to employment under the two-language rule much easier for some. Even if this was not the case, it is only proper that, because we pay translation costs, our mother language should be recognised. I congratulate this committee on the work it has done to achieve this.

The €150,000 spent by this committee on the White Paper and referendum information is timely. I concur with Deputy Durkan that is too easy to forget that the wealth we currently experience is a direct result of membership of the European Union. I recall, from my brief studies of commerce, our past dependence on Britain as the main destination for our exports. Our susceptibility to that country's market vagaries has been removed. Agriculture is no longer our dominant industry and the numbers engaged in it have greatly decreased. These changes arose from EU membership. It is time that politicians publicise the importance of closer ties to Europe, particularly among younger voters.

I concur with other members in welcoming the increased funding for emigrant services, particularly in the United Kingdom. The committee has been active in this area and members have met groups in the UK that work on the frontline with emigrants. Many have spent their lives working in the UK and now face a pathetic and lonely existence. Those who worked in the building trade often received no provisions for their old age. The increase in funding is important, although it is not as large as was recommended by a special commission established to investigate the plight of Irish people living in penury in the UK and facing burial in paupers' graves. This scenario is not a proud one for Irish people. We are all aware of the great contribution made by these people to the development of our economy by means of remittance payments to poor relatives in Ireland over many years. I urge the Minister to continue this progressive support to frontline groups.

The aforementioned report recommended that a special agency be established to address this issue. It was decided that a unit be formed within the Department rather than spend money in empire building with an expensive agency. I agree with this proposal. Frontline groups, if properly funded and supported by the State, can perform a positive role. I welcome this development.

I also welcome the progress that has been made by using the benefits of our special political and familial relationships with the US Government to address the difficulties experienced by undocumented Irish there. I acknowledge that a detailed letter has been sent by the Minister to Deputies who expressed an interest in this matter. Arising from our relationship with the US President and members of that country's Congress, I would like to offer the Minister an opportunity to comment on the delicate matter of the recent reports on the abuse of human rights at Guantanamo Bay. As a result of our special relationship with the US authorities, we have an obligation to be candid when it needs to be said that the US is failing in its supposed role as a world moral leader.

As a friend of the United States, it is difficult to justify what is going on and what has been stated in objective reports and by observers to be happening at Guantanamo Bay. This behaviour has been overseen and authorised by the United States Government at the highest level. I offer the Minister an opportunity to state what Ireland is saying at international or diplomatic level via its missions in Washington and New York and at the United Nations. Is Ireland articulating its dissatisfaction at the human rights abuses which are occurring in breach of international obligations at Guantanamo Bay and which are being presided over by the United States Government?

I agree with Deputy Gregory and others who have spoken on the humanitarian situation in the Palestinian occupied territories. I also visited the area on a humanitarian mission and saw at first hand what is, generally speaking, out of sight and out of mind. There has always been significant support here across all parties and through successive Governments for the rights of the Palestinian people. I hope we have been fair-minded in our approach to the genuine security problems being experienced there by ordinary Israelis but on a humanitarian level we have seen levels of poverty and degradation in the Palestinian occupied territories equivalent to levels of poverty which we all have become so used to seeing in Africa. I offer the Minister the opportunity to state whether he thinks we are supporting on a humanitarian level projects which could alleviate that distress.

Unfortunately, the political situation in the Middle East is so enmeshed and protracted that successive generations are experiencing chronic poverty, deprivation and war. The levels of interruption of normal life, which can only be experienced by visiting the region, are so chronic as to be quite pathetic and deserving of humanitarian support from our Government. We all know about the collective punishment, the arbitrary arrests and the complete absence of freedom of movement which the local populations must endure because of the overweening presence of the occupying forces.

I visited the area with Christian Aid last year and witnessed the levels of poverty. The only services which seem to be working properly are the schools and they are run by UNRWA which does fantastic work. Much of Ireland's funding in that area goes towards education services. It was wonderful to see schools operating and children marching off to school with their schoolbags through completely broken down streets and past demolished buildings. The Palestinians must endure significant security interruptions in their daily lives and are constantly being stopped from moving and are generally being oppressed by the occupying forces. I am delighted to hear that the Minister is to visit the region and hope he takes the opportunity, should he get access to the refugee camps we visited, to see for himself the terrible levels of poverty being endured by the people.

I note that some €150,000 has been allocated for a White Paper on the EU constitution. More than money is needed at this stage to advocate support for the latter. As the Minister will acknowledge, we find ourselves in a difficult situation. I look forward to the outcome of the upcoming European Council meeting which, I hope will shed some light on how Ireland as a progressive and confident member of the European Union can move forward in respect of this difficulty which has befallen the European project and encourage acceptance of the treaty.

The embassies abroad are active in helping people who want to visit Ireland — whether on business, on holidays or for other reasons — to obtain visas. To what extent is the Department linking, in terms of joined-up government, with the proposed new immigration service? Many Deputies are approached by people who are having chronic difficulty in coming to Ireland for pleasure, to visit relatives, to work or on business.

I am aware that there is a consultation process in train and that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is putting a new immigration service in place which will allow people to enter Ireland for valid purposes. In many cases, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is encouraging people to come here to work and to fill places in our economy while the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is refusing them entry. The three Departments must be involved in a total streamlining of this area of lawful entry into the State because it will hold us back as a nation if we have outdated methodologies and administrative systems which give us a bad name and cause Deputies to be contacted by business people, travellers, relatives and all sorts of individuals who are dissatisfied with what should be quite a simple process of lawfully entering Ireland for business or pleasure purposes. I invite the Minister to outline the plans to streamline the service and work with other Departments in a way which would improve that area of policy.

I join previous speakers in thanking the Minister and the Minister of State for coming before the committee. I generally welcome Votes 28 and 29.

I wish to add my tuppence ha'penny worth to the comments regarding Ireland's decision to have Irish recognised as an official EU language, on which I thank the Minister and his team. I am aware that it was a difficult negotiation but it is very important for all Irish people that it happened. This will be looked on in the future as a good day for Ireland.

I welcome the 17.5% increase in Vote 29 to €470 million. I concur with some of the other comments that have been made regarding development aid.

We will be taking Vote 29 later. We are dealing now with Vote 28.

I do not believe that the €8.273 million for emigrant services is enough. The commission recommended €20 million. Many of these people will die in the next 20 years, given that many of them went to Britain in the 1950s and 1960s, and this figure could, therefore, be reduced in the future.

It is a finite group.

Yes. There is a strong argument for front-loading this and increasing the allocation to €20 million for the next ten years and reducing it thereafter. It is not good enough that we are spending €470 million on foreign aid and only €8.2 million on our people in Britain and America. That is wrong and it is unbalanced. The Commission recommended spending €20 million. I do not care if I am breaking ranks with my party. It should be €20 million and it should be front-loaded. I visited some of these people in London when I was Lord Mayor of Dublin. This is an important issue.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment as UN envoy. It is very important work. If he is commenting on the European Union constitution, as somebody who is very much pro-Europe, I wish to state that I am disappointed by what is transpiring regarding the constitution. It is not a perfect document. There are many problems with it but it is a compromise. It would be difficult to reach a compromise between 25 people, not to mention 25 member states. That was a huge triumph not just for the convention but also for the Irish diplomatic team. Admittedly, it was before the Minister's time but he would have played a part. It is disappointing to see all that work unravelling.

I am not one of those who believe the constitution should be given up as a dead duck. Ireland should hold its referendum; we should let the people have their say. I hope that when the Minister goes to the meeting on Thursday he will say this. Let the people say "No" if they wish but we should let them have their say. I cannot see why the people or the people of any other country should be denied a voice. Let us have the debate. I do not think the Minister will be disappointed by the people when that happens.

With the Chairman's indulgence, I would like to follow up Deputy O'Donnell's question regarding Guantanamo Bay. When the Minister replies, perhaps he will deal with the consequences of the presidential determination in January 2002 regarding the Geneva Convention. On the advice of Mr. Gonzales, the US President made a presidential determination that the full protections of the Geneva Convention did not apply to those being held.

Would the Minister like to make a concluding statement?

I will try to conclude and deal with some of the issues raised.

Regarding the Irish abroad unit and the Irish abroad generally, I thank those Deputies who have been supportive of what we have been trying to do. We are building up the Estimates which more than doubled between last year and this. It should not be forgotten — even if I say so myself — that when I was Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, I introduced in the face of great opposition from the system, not least within the Department, a pre-1953 pension which, as the Chairman will know full well, was something which was vigorously fought against during the years. Last year alone €82 million went to people who qualified for this pension, the vast majority of whom are living in Britain. Some 72% of this figure has gone to people living in Britain. A smaller proportion goes to people living in Ireland and elsewhere abroad. That is a very large weekly resource for Irish people living in Britain who are not receiving a substantial pension, if at all, from the UK Government. The funding that will be distributed through DION this year will be 79% of the substantial amount sought by the DION fund.

The issue of capital projects was raised. Last year I visited Cricklewood and the London Irish Centre. We provided each of them with €100,000 in capital funding. They have very dramatic plans but the very fact that they asked us if we could see our way to granting capital funding — even a small amount — meant that for buildings they would be able to go to the local council which has ultimate responsibility for such groups. They will be able to say to the local council and other statutory agencies that they now have the support of the Irish Government. In many cases, the groups I visited are not simply facilitating Irish pensioners or others but providing a resource for multi-ethnic communities. Once again, most of the funding is coming from Irish agencies.

In his absence I thank Deputy Durkan for his remarks. One of the major successes of recent years from a structural point of view has been the creation of the African Union. We can see this clearly in the much more co-ordinated and coherent response to the UN reform package. One now has a relatively united voice coming from Africa, the key to any reform package. One of the key issues is to create an alliance or axis between the developed and developing worlds, with the European Union on one side and the African Union on the other. In response to Deputy Higgins, we must endeavour to deliver on what is achievable in a relatively short space of time.

The report, In Larger Freedom, was published only five months ago and followed from a high level panel report which was a broader document. While I can understand some of the Deputy's criticisms, if we can achieve what is proposed in that report we will have done a good day's work. The European Union supports the report but countries outside the Union hold very different views on it, not least on the question of humanitarian intervention and the concept of the responsibility to protect people.

Several Deputies mentioned the Middle East. Had I not been appointed a UN envoy I would have visited the Middle East and spent time in several countries there. I had to cancel that trip, however, to go to New York in my role as envoy. I had also intended to visit Africa later this year but that is not possible because of my UN position.

I share the Deputies' concerns about the Middle East which is discussed every month at GAERC meetings. It is accepted there has been some progress in the region but it has been slow and I can empathise with the sentiments expressed by Deputies about withdrawal and how that will impact on the communities there.

The issue of capital punishment was also raised, something we should all roundly condemn. Several Deputies, including the Chairman, raised the issue of visas. There is no visa requirement for US citizens coming to Ireland but they require a work visa if they propose to work here. I understand the point about a quid pro quo system in this respect. One could consider this but there are undocumented people already in the United States.

The Walsh visas are available to people in Northern Ireland and in the six Border counties. The uptake, however, has been under 20% of the allocation in each year. It was very slow at the outset. Although many still go to America, they are fewer in number than in the past because our economy has improved.

If we were to develop a quid pro quo system it would have ramifications for other countries. The Taoiseach and I raised with President Bush the issue of the undocumented people and he was very sympathetic when he heard the figures. He said if that were the only problem, it could be sorted tomorrow but he has also to deal with the 9.5 million Mexicans who come into his constituency every year. He was well briefed and very sympathetic to the plight of undocumented persons generally, including Irish people. We resolved that after the meeting we would endeavour to come to a proper understanding of the numbers of undocumented Irish persons and how we should proceed thereafter.

One of the immigration centre groups suggested that we should compile a proper database of undocumented Irish persons in the United States. I informed it that my Department would be willing to fund such a facility from the funds available in the Irish abroad unit. We did some work in this regard and discussed the proposal with some of the centres. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, they are not convinced that a database would be effective. The objective of such a facility would be to get a handle on the numbers involved. We would be in a position to satisfy those whose information was collected that it was entirely secure. This system would enable us to offer precise numbers to President Bush and the relevant Unites States authorities when such information was sought.

A number of Deputies, including Deputy O'Donnell, raised the issue of our visa system and the need to ensure co-operation across Departments and State agencies. Reform of the system is ongoing and there is a significant amount of funding available in the Department for this purpose, as set out in the Vote. Our office will form part of the proposed immigration and naturalisation service. We already work closely with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. We are developing a new automated visa application and tracking system which will use modern technology and be rolled out to all our embassies and consulates. It will facilitate interaction with a number of other statutory agencies. Some €4 million is set aside for the system in this year's Estimates, under subhead A.5, and we are currently evaluating tenders for its development.

The Chairman asked about the difficulties that had arisen in regard to Bethlehem University. I was lobbied on the issue by one of the directors of the university who was in Ireland last Christmas. I understand the gentleman concerned is originally from Dundalk. We have been supporting the university for the past 15 years and an allocation has been made to continue this support into 2007. The budget for the current year is €250,000.

Deputies O'Donnell and Higgins raised the matter of the United States detention facility at Guantanamo Bay. While we do not engage in megaphone diplomacy, we take every opportunity to raise the matter with the United States authorities, either bilaterally or at EU level. It is an issue the Taoiseach has raised with President Bush on a number of occasions. We have called on the United States authorities to investigate alleged abuses and ensure any such abuses do not take place. We condemn any abuses of this nature, wherever they take place, and will continue to make our views known to the United States authorities.

Detainees at Guantanamo Bay do not enjoy the protection of the Geneva Convention.

No.

In regard to the issue raised by Deputy Higgins, I understand the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, discussed the matter with members of the US Administration when he met them in Geneva recently. In regard to the presidential determination, we understand President Bush took his position on legal advice. As I said before, our position is that all detainees at Guantanamo Bay should be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention. We have made this opinion clear to the Americans on every occasion on which we met.

On the issue of humanitarian aid for the Palestinian Authority, I understand the frustration of Deputies at events in the region but we have provided substantial bilateral and emergency aid. In 2004 a total of just under €5 million was spent in the areas of education, health, local government, human rights and emergency humanitarian assistance.

I appreciate Deputies' comments on the expansion of our missions which play an important role. Deputy Durkan noted the lazy headlines about the costs involved but they represent good value for money for the taxpayer. Regardless of where Irish people experience difficulties abroad, they should contact the Irish representative after contacting their families. Good service is provided by the missions. I compliment the staff involved in far flung regions of the world on their work on behalf of Irish people.

Deputy Gregory asked a question about the opinion poll on the European constitution. Like any good politician, I keep an eye on the polls. At this week's meeting difficult discussions will be held on how to proceed on the issue. I hope Deputy Gregory, among others, will understand the European constitution's proposals for Ireland are all positive and do not have negative implications.

I thank the Minister. We were supplied with a figure of 11,000 undocumented Irish, although the number could actually be as high as 60,000. This contrasts with a figure of 10 million to 11 million Mexicans and Hispanics. People say they want to preserve a balance but the numbers of Irish are comparatively small. While in the United States we agreed that we should investigate the Walsh visa programme to see if it could be modified. We will do so in conjunction with the Department.

The young American man to whom I referred, whose grandmother lives here as an Irish citizen, wants to establish a technological business here. I may bring the case to the attention of the Secretary General.

Yesterday I received a letter from Senator Ted Kennedy's office about the 292 Montserratian families threatened with deportation in June on the basis that the issue raised, that of the volcano on their island, was not a recent or temporary one. Senator Kennedy who continues to press the campaign thanked this committee for its interest and suggested that the Government might also take an interest in the matter, on which I have communicated with the Department.

We met the Senator while in the United States and he was optimistic about what could be achieved. He was probably more optimistic than others we met. He was a breath of fresh air in that regard and we were glad to witness his involvement.

The Minister has observed the welcome and support for his work which he has received from this committee. We do not have time, however, to discuss how much we appreciate the work being done for Irish people abroad. We have a good relationship with the Department and wish the Minister success in his work, particularly as an envoy on behalf of the United Nations. We studied the issue earlier because we felt it was an important one, one on which we will keep in contact with the Department.

The select committee has now completed its consideration of Vote 28. On its behalf, I thank the Minister and his officials for attending the meeting and their helpful contributions.

The issue of a vote on the Estimate will arise in the Dáil.

That is correct.

Sitting suspended at 4.52 p.m. and resumed at 4.55 p.m.
Vote 29 — International Co-operation (Revised).

I call on the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Lenihan, to address the select committee on Vote 29 — International Co-operation for approximately 15 minutes. His contribution will be followed by statements from the parties.

I am honoured to present to the select committee and seek its approval for the allocation for 2005 for Vote 29 — International Co-operation.

The debate about aid, development and Africa has never been higher on the international agenda. The intensive international negotiations on Africa in the lead-up to the G8 meeting in Gleneagles next month, the ongoing discussions about aid volumes at EU level and the growing popular movement around aid issues that will culminate in the Live 8 concert are generating unprecedented momentum for positive change in Africa and relieving the plight of some of the poorest people in the world.

The announcement on debt relief by the G8 Finance Ministers last Friday was most welcome. In recent years Ireland has consistently favoured 100% debt cancellation for heavily indebted poor countries. This was one of the first countries in the world to do so. The total debt write-off for 18 of the poorest countries in Africa has the potential to bring significant benefits for them, in particular for a number of the sub-Saharan countries served by our programme. While much of the detail of the scheme has yet to be finalised and made public, in the end what counts is that it should result in more money being available in the budgets of the countries concerned to help them achieve the millennium development goals through spending more on crucial and vital services such as health, education, agriculture and infrastructure. For this to happen, debt cancellation must be funded by new money and there must not be a corresponding fall-off in other aid flows to the countries in question. Let us hope the initiative can achieve this, that it turns out to be all of what it promises to be and that momentum can be maintained in the next few weeks through the more difficult areas of aid volumes, the untying of aid and trade reform.

While there is still much to be agreed and done, there is no doubt that 2005 will be a watershed in terms of development. It represents an enormous opportunity for us to redouble our efforts in trying to make poverty history.

Before dealing with specifics, I draw the attention of the committee to the publication last week of Action Aid International's new report entitled, Real Aid: An Agenda for Making Aid Work, which finds that Ireland has one of the highest quality overseas aid programmes among western donors. Ireland is rated No. 1 among the wealthy countries in the OECD. The report which is critical of many other donors highlights that almost 90% of Irish aid benefits poor people in developing countries. It also finds that Ireland spends more of its aid, 79%, on low income countries than any other country apart from Portugal and has no tied aid, whereas 70% of US aid and 92% of Italian aid is tied.

It is crucial in this year when much of the focus is on aid volumes that none of us loses sight of the quality of aid Ireland delivers. Since I was appointed in September, a number of very high profile and well known individuals at a global level have paid tribute to the Irish aid programme, notably Jim Wolfensohn, former president of the World Bank; Kofi Annan, UN Secretary General, during his visit here and, most recently, former US President Bill Clinton who when speaking at a number of charitable fund-raising events in Dublin paid generous tribute to the Irish aid programme for what it did on the ground in Africa.

The allocation proposed for Vote 29 for 2005 is €470.8 million. I am pleased that this reflects an increase of €70 million or 17.5% on the 2004 figure. As a result, total ODA for 2005 should amount to approximately €545 million when contributions from other Departments towards ODA have been taken into account. This represents the highest allocation in the 30 year history of the Irish aid programme.

In addition, the €70 million increase forms part of a multi-annual commitment by the Government to ODA funding. A further €65 million will be provided in each of the next two years, bringing the total increase over the three years to €200 million. These are substantial increases and will result in total expenditure over the three years, 2005 to 2007, of over €1.8 billion on overseas development assistance. The multi-annual funding framework enables my Department to carry forward long-term planning which is so important for development work.

The Government remains committed to achieving the UN target of 0.7% of GNP on ODA. The question of how best to meet the UN target and the timeframe in which to do so is under ongoing and active review. I am anxious to build on the substantial progress we have made to date. However, we must set a timeframe that is achievable and realistic. This issue is under active consideration and I hope it will be decided shortly.

Members of the committee will be aware that the European Union recently agreed new ODA targets. These provide that the European Union undertakes to reach a new collective target of 0.56% by 2010, while member states which have not yet reached a level of 0.51% will undertake to individually reach this figure by 2010. Member states also undertake to achieve the UN target of 0.7% by 2015. The newer member states which joined after 2002 have lower targets. I refer to the ten new accession countries as opposed to the original 15.

I now propose to highlight a number of key focus areas for Development Co-operation Ireland this year and in the years to come. As the committee is aware, we are engaged in a broad-based public consultation process which involves the receipt of written submissions from organisations and individuals, as well as a series of public meetings around the country. To date, we have received more than 100 submissions, totalling many hundreds of pages. We are examining these submissions and will continue our analysis in the weeks and months ahead.

In recent weeks we have held public meetings in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Athlone, Limerick, Waterford and Tralee, and further meetings are planned for the near future, that is, before the end of the summer, and again in the autumn. The turnout at these meetings has been good, exceptionally so in some cases, and discussion has been informed. I have been somewhat surprised at the level of engagement and interest shown by so many people. Overall, I find this very encouraging for the development agenda generally.

It is too early to draw definitive conclusions from what members of the public are saying. However, a number of clear themes have emerged in the meetings to date. There is a genuine appreciation that this process of public consultation is being undertaken and has started. The public knows a little about what we do but wants to know much more. People also want to hear that development co-operation works. They want to hear that our efforts on their behalf, with their money, are making a difference in the recipient countries. People also want to know what they can do and how they can help. While the role of volunteers has changed greatly in recent years, we must look at how we can harness the energy, enthusiasm and abilities of those who wish to make a voluntary contribution, be it by way of time or effort.

The list of other issues raised is extensive. It includes fair trade, questions of governance and corruption, the balance between NGOs and governments as vehicles for aid delivery, the fight against HIV-AIDS, policy coherence and media coverage of development issues. Last, but not least, the UN target of 0.7% has been raised at every meeting. Members will note that our engagement with the public has covered much ground. For my part, I have found it very instructive in terms of the issues of most concern to people throughout the country. This is the first ever White Paper devoted to development co-operation policy. It will be a statement of policy by the Government which will guide our efforts in this area in the years to come.

The committee will be aware from its engagement in least developed countries of the important linkage between promoting sustainable development and the quality of government. The UN, the Blair Commission for Africa, the G8, the World Bank — through its pronouncements — and others have emphasised the vital need to underpin the focus on promoting human and economic development and improving the quality, responsiveness and accountability of governments, particularly in Africa.

We not only share that view, we are taking steps to create the linkage to which I refer in our programme countries. A policy for the promotion of good governance is being developed to bring together in a strategic way all our engagements in this area, to increase the assistance being given to help partner governments raise their game and, where they fail to move with us or to meet their commitments on democratisation, to use the leverage of the aid programme to put them under significant pressure. We are doing this in Uganda, for example, by way of a proposal to withhold a proportion of our programme in the light of a slowdown in the timetable of democratisation in the lead-up to the 2006 elections there.

In Ethiopia, where there have been concerns following the May elections, it is noteworthy that pressure from Ireland, the EU and the UN has led to agreement by all political parties on a review process for all disputed electoral results. That came about as a direct result of pressure from Ireland and other EU countries which made a diplomatic démarche in respect of the representatives of Ethiopia. Our intention in highlighting this area and in developing a broad policy approach is to treat the issue of good governance as an important development issue in its own right, wherein we help, encourage and, where necessary, pressurise our partner governments.

Activity at the UN this year is dominated by the September summit which will review progress on the millennium declaration, including the millennium development goals adopted in the year 2000. These goals are directly relevant to our central objective of poverty reduction. They are accompanied by targets for reducing extreme poverty, hunger, child mortality, gender disparity and HIV-AIDS and improving maternal health, access to education, water and sanitation and housing by 2015.

The millennium project report, commissioned by the United Nations and prepared by Jeffrey Sachs, includes detailed calculations of the resources required to reach these targets. Many of the recommendations contained in that report have been endorsed by the UN Secretary General, Kofi Annan, in his report, In Larger Freedom, and advocated by the Minister for Foreign Affairs as envoy of the Secretary General.

The work done so far shows how difficult it will be for the international community to reach the goals it has set itself by 2015. Some of the greatest problems arise in Africa where many countries are off-target and grappling with multiple problems of war, post-conflict reconstruction and HIV-AIDS. Ireland will be seeking an outcome from the summit meeting which places clear emphasis on the needs of the poorest countries, reaffirms the commitments entered into at the Monterey Conference on Financing for Development 2002, recognises the special needs of Africa and addresses the special challenges presented by the AIDS pandemic and the process of climate change.

Within hours of the tsunami disaster, Ireland announced immediate assistance of €1 million. This was quickly increased to €2 million as the death toll began to rise. A pledge of €10 million in funding was announced by the Taoiseach and me on 31 December 2004. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, accompanied by the chief executives of Concern, GOAL, Trócaire and the Irish Red Cross visited the most affected countries — Thailand, Indonesia and Sri Lanka — from 8 to 13 January 2005 when a further €10 million was pledged by him. This brought Ireland's total pledge of assistance to €20 million, the largest ever response to an emergency by an Irish Minister or Government.

To date, a total of €11.3 million has been allocated by the Government to NGOs, international organisations and UN agencies for activities in response to the tsunami. Programme monitoring and decision-making on funding are being conducted by a technical adviser recently appointed to the development co-operation directorate of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

A package of proposals for the delivery of the balance of the €20 million pledge is being finalised. It envisages contributions to multi-donor trust funds in Sri Lanka and Indonesia, support for an early warning system for the region and a range of recovery projects being delivered by international organisations and Irish and international NGOs working in partnership in Indonesia, Sri Lanka and the Maldives. Areas of particular focus for Irish assistance include support for housing and associated infrastructure, rebuilding livelihoods in the affected areas and maintenance of peace building in the north of Sri Lanka and in Aceh province in Indonesia, in line with the recommendations of the Government appointed tsunami technical team and the special envoy, Mr. Chris Flood.

Development Co-operation Ireland has for the past four years earmarked funding for specific HIV-AIDS programmes through a special HIV-AIDS budget line. This budget allocation follows on from the Taoiseach's commitment to increase financial allocations to HIV-AIDS announced at the UN General Assembly special session on AIDS in 2001. For 2005, an amount of €33 million is available under this special budget line. I emphasise that this funding is additional to bilateral funding commitments in Development Co-operation Ireland programme countries for activities in support of the fight against the HIV-AIDS pandemic. The total amount of funding allocated by Development Co-operation Ireland is almost €50 million. The latter has grown tenfold in three years, illustrating the extraordinary challenge posed.

Ireland is continuing to support a number of global initiatives, including the global fund for AIDS, TB and malaria. We will also move towards the provision of multi-annual funding for the joint United Nations programme on HIV-AIDS, the main advocate for global action on the pandemic.

As the select committee is aware, under the Government's decentralisation programme, Development Co-operation Ireland is scheduled for decentralisation to Limerick. This will involve the relocation of some 123 posts. The decentralisation process will take place during a period of significant growth in the official development aid budget. In the three-year period 2005 to 2007, the portion of the ODA budget administered by my Department will increase by 50%. This will raise significant issues for the management of the programme, which are currently being addressed.

A number of risks to the programme have been identified in the Department's implementation plan. We are conscious of the challenges involved and are devising a range of strategies to manage these risks. In order to share experiences and identify lessons to be learned, Development Co-operation Ireland has consulted other Departments and offices, including the Revenue Commissioners, that have been involved in decentralisation processes and the UK Department for International Development which relocated from London to Glasgow in the early 1980s.

Having briefly outlined the overall allocation and key areas of focus for 2005, I will be happy to answer any questions which members may wish to pose.

I begin with a fundamental question. The presentation would have been assisted enormously if the Minister of State had said in what year Ireland proposes to meet the UN target of 0.7% as announced to the UN General Assembly in September 2000. The commitment is included in the programme for Government of his party and its partner, the Progressive Democrats Party, and in the agreement with the social partners. It has been referred to on many public occasions and proved useful in securing Ireland's election to the Security Council of the UN. The submission by Dóchas suggests that, if one expresses the gross figures as a percentage of GNP which is more useful for determining the 0.7% target, it will be 2028 at the current rate before Ireland will achieve it.

The total figure of €545 million for ODA in 2005 will give a percentage of 0.41% of GNP. There is no point in seeking to deflect the attention of the committee which has been unanimous in supporting the 0.7% UN commitment towards the contribution to the poorest countries of the world, about which we are not arguing. The Irish programme is concentrated on the poorest countries in Africa. I welcome this but what I find astonishing is that no mention was made of the UN target of spending 0.7% of GNP in the package given out during the series of public meetings held around the country, to which the Minister of State referred. It was left out entirely. It was not included in the text, whereas elaborate reference was made to the percentage given to the poorest countries. I am not suggesting for one second that the Minister of State deliberately sought to deflect attention from the target of 0.7% by using an alternative percentage but it is a fact that one percentage figure is referred to whereas there is no reference to the solemn commitment to reach a figure of 0.7% of GNP given by the Taoiseach, on behalf of the people, at the United Nations.

I very much appreciate that during the coming year we will concentrate on the capacity to meet the millennium development goals. While a debate is welcome and necessary, it is very important to those of us who have been involved in the issue for a very long time to suggest that the millennium development goals do not exhaust the poverty issue. I detect a better attempt by Government — I welcome this — to try to combine strategies of debt, aid and trade together. One must never forget that an increase of 1% in world trade with the poorest countries would reduce the level of world poverty by 12%. Aid, trade and debt must be taken together.

The millennium development goals do not address the issue of the international financial institutions, to which I referred in the first part of the meeting. The international financial institutions must commit themselves publicly to the strategy of the millennium development goals and have cohesive policies. As we are short of time, let me give a practical example. A requirement of the World Bank was that the Zambian bank be nationalised. There was an outcry in Zambia. The government backed off and Zambia paid the price of €1 billion in what was qualified debt relief because it refused to privatise the national bank. One cannot dance around the idea of the international financial institutions which have to be made coherent with the millennium development goals.

Assessing where we stand on the millennium development goals and the pledges made, the development debate and discussion were better at the end of the 1970s than in 2005. At the end of the 1970s we were debating, as I mentioned in the previous part of the meeting, forms of technology, the relative merits of capital and labour intensive technology as sources of innovation. One hopes I could take the map of Africa and list the countries where what is being spent on debt servicing, even allowing for some HIPC, heavily indebted poor country, arrangements, is exceeding the combined budget for health and education and, in some cases, the budget for health. If one is to put the additional resources released by debt relief into education, a form of technology transfer which is labour intensive offers a much better chance of participation in a development model. We must bear in mind that in the poorest countries 1.2 billion people are dependent on one dollar a day, of whom 70% or 900 million are living in rural societies. On the other side, when the international financial institutions are examined on their record, the capital intensive transfers from multinational corporations and donor governments have, in fact, facilitated corruption.

I agree with the Minister of State about tied aid and elites. The transaction is with elites rather than in terms of creating the capacity for a genuine development or transformation and an achieved growth in the economy. There are those of us who want to be positive about this issue. I am concerned about people abusing the corruption argument.

As regards the geophysical map of sub-Saharan Africa and the fact it has one of the third or fourth largest deposits of oil and gas, the greatest amounts of resources have been removed from this poorest region of the world. Nigeria has fallen three places in the UNDP index, yet it has pumped additional crude oil. One does not need to be a genius to know that the oil companies and multinationals are standing on one side of the corruption argument, while the elites are standing on the other.

It would be dishonest and a disaster to suggest that corruption is endemic in the cultures, societies or economies of countries in Africa. When discussing Africa, we should bear in mind the diversity of the continent. There is no comparison between pre or post-colonial Senegal and Nigeria. The circumstances in both countries are now different. That is why it is important to respect the forms of technology transfer, which is not happening.

I am in favour of the achievement of the millennium development goals. As regards achievement, this matter is often discussed from the top down rather than from the bottom up. It is distracting attention from productive sectors which could more easily be transformed with greater benefit.

There has been much discussion about Uganda. I do not have the answer to that riddle. People suggest it is a reflection on the Ugandan Government that the war is taking place in the north, while it is supposed to be spending too much on military equipment, etc. How does one defeat the liberation army in the north of the country if one does not use weapons? Will prayers be said in front of them? I visited a low technology well with David Andrews, which is of immense benefit to a community. I also saw people holding classes under a mango tree. How many people in this Parliament or in Ireland would welcome a cessation of aid to Uganda which would have the effect of removing primary education from children or the right of parents to make bricks to build a school?

We should discuss the corruption argument but one would go through many countries in Africa before one would come across the combined fraud that emerged in Enron in the United States. We should have a discussion on fraud and corruption. However, let us not suggest that any of these characteristics are inherent in any aspect of a diverse African society.

As regards governance and what was spent on aid, it would have been nice if a civil society capacity development component had been built into these aid packages. I have looked at many of them and the phrase often used is "governance". However, that is not the issue. The issue is civil society participation because if one gets education, indigenous and appropriate technology and a type of transformation in the agricultural sector, one will see different parts of the society taking off. This returns us to the trade argument. Members should consider what has happened in the international coffee and cotton markets and the fact that it has pauperised many countries.

It is interesting that Vietnam rather than Cambodia was chosen for the establishment of an Irish mission. I visited both countries and would regard Vietnam as having the capacity to do much more with its own resources than Cambodia. It is in-between in terms of its capacity to develop. I visited that country in 1998 and felt it deserved our attention.

Regarding the reports we are receiving on the tsunami, I join the Minister of State in praising the generosity of the people in its aftermath. However, I have heard reports from Aceh that people who want to build schools and rehouse teachers are having difficulties contacting the representatives of some of the principle donor nations. I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the entire question of what is happening regarding the post-tsunami situation as soon as possible.

The Minister of State will excuse me for offering one piece of advice, namely, that he should not fall into the trap of using gross figures regarding aid. That is one of the great deceits of the United States which suggests that it gives more — 0.15% of GNP — than other country. Gross figures are used for decoration at party conferences. The reality is that the commitment given is the proportion of GNP. That is what the United Nations heard from us and it is to that figure that the eyes of the world will be directed.

Should I respond?

No, we will hear other members first. I call Deputy Durkan to contribute on behalf of Fianna Fáil. I apologise, I meant Fine Gael.

Nearly everyone seems to have spoken on behalf of Fianna Fáil at some time or other. I am sorry that I had to be away and was not here for the Minister of State's contribution. I will be as quick as possible.

My colleague, Deputy Higgins, is without a doubt an acknowledged expert on development aid and has done a tremendous amount of work for many years. Lest my earlier suggestion that care be taken regarding the direction of aid be viewed as an indication that I am opposed to it, let me say that I am not. However, it is important to preserve the integrity of the concept by ensuring that, as far as possible, the aid goes to those for whom it was intended. That can be done in a variety of ways, without at all interfering with the concept or detracting in any shape or form from the original idea. The danger is that in certain circumstances it might emerge in five, seven or ten years' time that perhaps some of the aid was not put to proper use. Not only would that damage future contributions and efforts, it would also damage institutions, such as the UN, which can ill afford to incur such damage.

With regard to Africa and AIDS which I did not mention earlier, the urgency with which that issue must be addressed is increasing with each passing day. All the reports indicate that, for one reason or another, aid that could be made available to address HIV-AIDS has not been forthcoming. The extent to which medicines could and should have been made available was not really addressed when it could have been by some of the great powers. The Minister of State must now use his influence in that area in every way possible. The cost is not necessarily simply to Africa. This is a tragedy for Africans, their economies, their health and in terms of the loss of life but it is also a sad reflection on the entire international community, particularly in light of advances in modern medicine and people's willingness to transmit financial aid. It seems incredible that it has not been possible to achieve a great degree of success in this area.

I wish to add one or two points. On the question of contributions by Ireland and other countries, it must be recognised that we have put ourselves in a prominent and strong position. Some countries contribute a far lower percentage than Ireland. The disappointment is that we had hoped to continue to move rapidly towards the 0.7% figure. We are anxious to see progress towards it by 2010 or 2012.

We contributed approximately 0.41% at the beginning of 2004 and ended the year with a figure of 0.39% because our growth was greater than anticipated. When set in the budget, the amount appeared to be 0.41% but by the end of the year it had slipped because growth had exceeded the expectations of the Department of Finance. That was our lowest figure but it has been greatly increased. In contrast, however, the United States contributed 0.16% on the same table. Even a small increase in that percentage would have a major impact on the funds available. The contribution of Spain stands at 0.26%, that of Greece at 0.23%, Italy at 0.15%, Australia at 0.25% and Austria at 0.24%. There is much urgent work to be done to increase the amount of money available. We support efforts made in that regard.

How can we achieve this percentage and how realistic is any figure we discuss? For example, if we calculate on the basis of a 5% per annum growth, how long will it take to achieve the figure of 0.7%? If growth stands at 7%, the figure increases. By 2012 it would be in the region of €125 million, €150 million or €160 million per annum. We need a reasonable forecast of growth. I thought we would base the forecast on 5% growth but I do not know what the figure will be. I would be interested to hear what the Minister of State has to say about the calculations for the future, given that he and his Department are anxious to reach the 0.7% target.

Will the Minister of State indicate the approximate percentage of total Government expenditure the 0.7% figure represents? Is it 1.5% or 2%? That issue will arise later. If the Minister of State does not have the figure with him, he might seek it afterwards and forward an estimate to the committee.

What sort of figures do the NGOs have for their annual budgets? When they were mentioned at the time of the tsunami in south-east Asia, I recall one had a figure of approximately €55 million per annum for its own operations. If that information is not readily available, perhaps the Minister of State could send it to us at a later date. It would be interesting to see a clear account of the sums involved.

In a letter to the committee last October the Taoiseach raised the question of the capacity of NGOs and Development Co-operation Ireland to take extra funds. Will the Minister of State indicate what is being done to improve that capacity generally in order that we will be discussing realistic figures?

The Minister of State mentioned a figure of €545 million for ODA in 2005. I am slightly confused because I understood that the figure for this year would amount to €555 million. Some €20 million was allocated for tsunami relief, half of which came from within, while the other €10 million was additional funding. Is only the additional €10 million included in the overall figure?

Yes. The original allocation was €535 million at the start of the budget term. The extra €10 million brings it to €545 million.

I thank the Minister of State for clarifying the position.

The question of governance is highly significant because it is an issue that impacts on the work the Minister of State is doing. Deputy Higgins raised this issue with particular reference to Uganda and Ethiopia. As he said, committee members visited Uganda and saw the work being done there. In the northern part of Uganda, near Gulu, for example, one could not hope to survive without the army presence. The situation is highly dangerous, even in daylight. Once one goes out to any of the camps, one is virtually out in the bush and there may be a person waiting to shoot one only 50 or 100 yd away. The army is protecting the displaced persons in these camps. The Minister of State will find this information in the report the committee produced after its visit.

I am of much the same mind as Deputy Higgins on this matter. If the Ugandan authorities do not have the resources to tackle the large resistance army, their people are in grave danger and many lives will be lost. However, I recognise that there is also a point where, circumstances permitting, it is time to take part in peaceful negotiations and to bring the conflict to a conclusion. We understood during our visit that this time was close at hand. We met the many religious groups and had open and frank discussions on this issue. Many of these groups believe the time has come to conclude a peace deal.

The Minister of State's contribution contained some reasonably good news about Ethiopia. Have the authorities there reached agreement about the results of the elections and has some stability been restored? If that is the case, it can only have settled down in the past week or so.

These positive developments have taken place only in recent days. Agreement has been reached on a joint approach in regard to examining the election results. There are approximately 200 constituencies in which questions have been raised by the opposition in respect of allegations of vote-fixing of some form or other. However, the situation remains tense and there are still problems at street level.

At least the situation now seems more hopeful. This morning members received a notice about governance and corruption from one of the NGOs. This included a suggestion that the Government should not allocate any more funding to the Ethiopian authorities in this context. It is good to be reassured that some progress is being made in this regard.

In general, I support much of what Deputy Higgins said because it reflects the experience of members during the committee's recent visit. Tremendous work is being done and the way aid money is spent is closely monitored by Development Co-operation Ireland and the missions in both countries. I am guided by what they say rather than what I read in newspapers because they have direct experience of working with the people in these countries and know what they are talking about.

I have some questions on the Estimate. In regard to bilateral assistance, the Minister of State has mentioned that there are seven programme countries and that he hopes to be able to go further and include some others. We received representations from Sierra Leone in this regard and we are all aware that Irish troops stationed in Liberia are engaged in some of this work. I presume these matters will be taken into consideration.

The Estimate refers to dedicated funding of €84 million for NGOs. Mention is made in the relevant section of the missionary and NGO funding schemes, formerly APSO. I recently encountered returned missionaries who are not in receipt of pensions. It is time we recognised the work they have done during the years. It would be a different matter if they were paid for working for somebody else. There cannot be many remaining because, when I was Minister for Social Welfare in 1988, old age pensions were introduced for members of religious orders as well as the self-employed. These people have been overseas since before the period to which I refer and have now returned to this country. We discussed emigrants in the US and in England but these people were also emigrants who worked on missions abroad. The Minister of State and his Department are familiar with the nature of their work.

They are in Kimmage.

They are also in places such as Killeshandra. An investigation of this matter would be worthwhile because it does not concern many people. A study should be conducted to learn how they may be covered. We have been able to resolve other issues. The numbers concerned are nothing like those in Britain claiming pre-1953 pensions. We are referring to a relatively small group of survivors. I ask the Minister of State to investigate the matter.

Section D of the Estimate notes that, from the outset, Ireland has been a strong advocate and supporter of the global fund for HIV-AIDS, TB and malaria. It should not be forgotten that the original cure for leprosy was discovered in Ireland. We are inclined to forget these matters. I had the privilege of meeting Dr. Kenneth Kaunda, who told me that the research programme with which he is involved found that, where a balanced diet is provided for AIDS sufferers, anti-retroviral drugs are more effective. Many more die in cases where such a diet is not provided, even with the use of anti-retrovirals. Between 1958 and 1960, I researched similar issues. It is strange that people do not bring forward this type of information. Applied research in this area would bring about significant benefits. That was certainly Dr. Kaunda's discovery.

I appeal for support for the group from St. James' Hospital and Trinity College which is doing excellent work in informing doctors and communities throughout Africa. The group is based in Kampala in Uganda and has devoted a number of years to this work. Those involved with the group are top level specialists from Dublin. I ask that their work be considered and that they be given all possible assistance.

I intended to raise the ongoing investigations into the killing of Archbishop Courtney with the Minister for Foreign Affairs. It may be inappropriate to raise the matter in this context. There is a suggestion that great efforts need to be made and pressure exerted on the authorities to bring finality to this case.

Before the Minister of State replies, I wish to ask a question on the figures. The figure for salaries, wages and allowances does not suggest the significant increase in staff required to achieve the necessary level suggested by the review group which reported to the Minister of State's predecessor on development aid and co-operation. The Department is understaffed in comparison with other Departments. The agenda we discuss here cannot be met with these staffing numbers. I am conscious of this when suggesting studies or linkages must take place.

The Minister of State mentioned major expenditure on new technology and computerisation. The Department of Social and Family Affairs had 100 programmers just a few years ago and while people came from around the world to obtain advice from it, they did not come from around the country. One may find a possibility of making use of that expertise within the public service. I offered that expertise many years ago — I will not tell the Minister of State where — but it was refused and approximately three years later the people concerned experienced significant difficulties because they had not taken the necessary steps. That does not apply here as the Minister of State is looking towards the future but it is not merely a question of examining the finances to see what is available, as some spare capacity could be of great assistance.

I ask the Minister of State to make his concluding remarks.

I will deal with the questions in the order they were asked but I will begin with the capacity issue raised by the Chairman and Deputy Higgins. The staffing allocations for this year do not reflect the future staffing needs of the developmental co-operation section of the Department, particularly as achieving the figure of 0.7% of GDP will have huge implications for staffing and capacity. This is not reflected in the figure for salaries this year but it is hoped it will be seen in additional Estimates during 2006 and 2007.

All Departments are somewhat constrained by the Civil Service embargo which creates an issue in terms of recruiting extra personnel. However, a report on staffing — compiled by Mr. Paul Cassidy, a former official in the Department of Finance — was commissioned by the independent advisory board. The report strongly recommends that additional personnel be devoted to the development co-operation division in recognition of the size of the programme. The achievement of the figure of 0.7% will create a greater need for additional staffing and resources.

The Department has been fortunate in terms of recent appointments. I am accompanied by Mr. Brendan Rogers who was appointed as an assistant secretary in the development co-operation division. This reflects the commitment of the Department of Foreign Affairs to that division. It is not, therefore, all bleak news.

Deputy Higgins is absolutely correct in the comments he made on untied aid and I welcome them. It is worth pointing out that Ireland's reputation is literally second to none. An interesting report by the international NGO Action Aid was published within the past week. It indicates that, across a range of aggregates, Ireland is ranked first in the world in terms of the quality of aid it delivers. It mentions what we call real aid, to which Deputy Higgins referred, as opposed to phantom aid. It points out that 90% of Ireland's overseas aid is classified as real aid and distinguishes between other countries. For example, it is suggested that other countries, including Italy and the United States, are not at the races compared to ourselves in terms of the untying of aid. A huge percentage of their aid is tied and, in the view of the people who wrote the report, is not aid of real assistance to the recipient countries. We have a strong reputation in terms of quality.

I agree with Deputy Higgins that the statement that corruption is endemic to Africa is somewhat colonial in nature. It is not endemic to Africa and there are spectacular examples of successful African states where aid is working and where matters are being administered at a governance level. The tragedy is that this is not the case in most of the countries. Irish people should be the last to preach to African countries in that particular vein because we have had a journey from lack of compliance to full compliance. We have had our own story to tell in the public tribunals at Dublin Castle and have no cause to hold forth in that regard.

I stress to the Deputy that we are not closing down the programme in Uganda. We are withdrawing funding, possibly of the order of €3 million, as a signal. This is similar to what the UK has done. The UK withdrew €5 million of government to government funding to Uganda because, like Ireland, it was concerned about certain aspects of the possible failure to achieve — in the context of political reform and the introduction of multi-party democracy — key benchmarks prior to the elections in 2006. There are also allied and related concerns about corruption and human rights in that country.

It would be useful if the Minister of State found a way of putting details of the donor committee meetings with the Ugandan authorities into the public realm. Arguments to the effect that aid to Uganda should be discontinued because Museveni's regime is corrupt or that such aid should be kept in place have been put forward. I am trying to see a way in which we can ensure the best results in terms of the expenditure. Making available the information I request might be a way of doing that. Monthly meetings take place, which are attended by our ambassador and which are valuable. I would appreciate if that information was fed into the public realm to a greater extent.

We could certainly offer to brief members of the committee on that matter. I would be wary of sharing donor committee meeting minutes because other countries are involved.

No, the Deputy was referring only to the conclusions reached at those meetings.

Not only are there donor meetings, I meet my colleagues from donor countries as well. I have met a number of them — I met the Dutch, Norwegian and Swedish Ministers in recent weeks — in respect of this matter and they are moving in the same direction. Mrs. Hilda Johnson, the Norwegian Minister, will be in Uganda tomorrow to meet with President Museveni to put across exactly the concerns which Deputy Higgins and, I am sure, other members have in respect of certain aspects of political life in Uganda. She will be doing so on behalf of her own country, as a like-minded donor, but also on behalf of Ireland, the Netherlands and a number of other countries that are moving in the same direction.

The 0.7% of GNP figure has surfaced in a number of questions. It is hoped that the Cabinet will make a decision on that matter by the end of the month. Obviously, that is a subject of discussion for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, the Taoiseach and me. Ultimately, the matter will be put before Cabinet for a formal decision on the setting of a new timeframe. The committee is aware of my personal views on this, namely, that we should try to achieve the figure of 0.7% earlier than 2015. However, it is important to emphasise that we have made an absolute commitment at European level to an interim target of 0.51% of GNP by 2010 and the full achievement of 0.7% of GNP by 2015. That is an absolute commitment we, as Development Ministers, made as a formal undertaking and it will I hope be confirmed when European leaders meet at their summit next week.

Is that our target?

No, that is the European Union target.

The Minister of State could assure us that there is no danger that it will become the Irish target.

No, I would not seek to give that assurance now because there are good arguments being made by certain people that we should reach our European commitments. I would not rule out completely that it will become our target. My preference which a number of members of the Cabinet share is that we should try to move earlier and maintain our position of leadership.

Let me be helpful to the Minister of State by telling him that it would be perceived as a disaster if we did not do so.

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Durkan provided figures relating to the tragedy of AIDS. He also raised other issues. He asked what we were doing in the AIDS area, where there is a funding shortfall. It is one area where extra funding is both needed and can clearly be absorbed. However, it is not the case entirely that anti-retroviral drugs are being ruled out or are costing too much. The price has come down dramatically in the past year thanks to a number of initiatives that have been taken at a global level, including in the United States. The average cost of an anti-retroviral treatment in recent times was €15,000 a year. That has decreased to approximately €300 a month. In some regions it is being delivered free. There have been huge improvements but anybody who visits Africa, as I do as part of my brief, will confirm what the Deputy is saying, namely, that it simply has not reached certain areas. There are entire regions where the anti-retroviral treatment has not been rolled out. One of the biggest inhibitions is that there is not the physical human capacity to do it. There are not enough doctors and nurses to deliver the treatment in vast parts of Africa. That is a major issue.

The Chairman referred to his meeting with Dr. Kenneth Kaunda. I also met Dr. Kaunda and I have been approached, through the Taoiseach, by the Clinton Foundation. We are anxious to fund both foundations, the one led by Dr. Kaunda and the that led by the former US President, Bill Clinton. We will be examining formal proposals to provide financial assistance to both foundations in the coming weeks.

What the Chairman said is correct. I spoke to Dr. Kaunda at the weekend when he attended our conference on human rights. He made the point to me, as he did to the Chairman, that nutritional levels are vital and that anti-retroviral drugs simply do not work if the person receiving the treatment does not have a particular level of nourishment. That applies particularly to the incidence of AIDS among children, who are especially vulnerable in that regard. In Zambia we are doing work in that area in conjunction with the Irish missionaries involved.

I am not sure if I have answered all the questions or whether there are others. One further issue arises, namely, the millennium development goals. These are not a complete package. There are eight items but they do not cover everything. For example, they cover primary education but they do not cover secondary or third level education. Arguably, if they succeed, they will throw down further challenges. It will not all end in 2015.

The issue is that the international financial institutions must be consistent with the goals. That we have yet to see.

In saying that, the Deputy is mirroring official Government policy. We take the same attitude, namely, that they need to come into synchronisation with the millennium development goals.

The G8 package is another issue that was raised. We welcome that with a certain amount of caution, as do some of the recipient countries of this debt cancellation, because — referring back to the multilateral institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank — there were initiatives previously which were meant as a boon for people in recipient countries but which ended up being the bane of their lives. We need to see the detail of this package before giving it a full and wholesome welcome. We have, however, welcomed it as a step in the right direction.

On the issue of debt, there is much more to be done. We must obtain 100% cancellation, not merely forgiveness. I hope to announce in the coming weeks that we will be contributing financially to the Gordon Brown initiative to reduce the level of indebtedness.

On the issue of corruption, there is a renewed focus on governance within the programme. That is hugely important because a lot of extra money will come into development, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, in the next few years. The EU decision on the new goals for 2010 will bring €20 billion extra into play in sub-Saharan Africa. The provision of that extra funding will have to be linked to proper government and structures of governance. It is widely accepted that whatever funding is provided should be used to encourage those countries that have made the transition towards better systems of government and administration of aid. Gordon Brown, when announcing the 18 countries that have benefited from the debt cancellation initiative, stressed that their being chosen was linked to their record of governance and practices in terms of democratisation.

I intend to explore the interesting question asked by the Chairman in terms of what percentage our development assistance represents in terms of overall Government spending. I apologise for not having that figure to hand. However, my officials will communicate with the select committee in that regard. The budget for the DCI section of the Department of Foreign Affairs is larger than those of five Cabinet Ministers. That may provide the committee with a benchmark, albeit anecdotal, in terms of the size of the budget for that area. The amount involved is significant.

I am not too sure from my notes what point was being made about the NGOs. I think the question related to capacity.

My question was about the capacity of the NGOs and how much they receive in a year.

I will have to communicate with the select committee on that matter at a later date. The information would be contained in the NGOs' annual report. I must also point out that the NGOs receive direct funding of €100 million from DCI.

Deputy Higgins asked a pertinent and relevant question about Vietnam. As the Minister indicated, it is intended that an embassy be established in Vietnam. The Deputy also referred to Vietnam's poorer neighbours, Cambodia and Laos. The opening up of a full programme office in Vietnam will underpin our Asia strategy and will, in terms of overseas aid, allow us to develop sub-offices in Cambodia and Laos. The intention is to open sub-offices of the Vietnam embassy in Cambodia and Laos rather than establishing a full administrative panoply of programmes. That will not happen from day one and we will have to ramp up our capacity to achieve this.

A similar approach was taken in Sierra Leone. While only a small office engaged in rehabilitation work is located in Sierra Leone it is hoped it will become a full programme country. That office will also act as an access point for other countries. We will not be creating many more offices with full programme status but we hope to provide, where the need arises, the same amount of assistance in other countries.

I am informed by my officials that the Department funds the type of specialists to which the Chairman referred. We will consider any proposals that may arise in that regard. I am not particularly familiar with the situation in Burundi. However, the Department is in contact with the authorities there to progress this particular issue. It is also in close contact with the Vatican on the matter, although little progress has been made. If there is to be a trial, Ireland will be represented there. I will forward a detailed note on the matter to the select committee.

On the question related to support for NGOs and missionaries, the Department signed an agreement with the Irish Missionary Resource Service to pay it €30 million over three years. It is intended that the organisation to which I refer will support approximately 500 Irish missionaries working on the ground in sub-Saharan Africa. The agreement is a formal partnership arrangement which will mean that in future the Irish Missionary Resource Service will handle all proposals. In the past proposals from a missionary or member of the clergy in Africa for project financing were evaluated by the Department of Foreign Affairs. Such evaluations will now largely be dealt with by the Irish Missionary Resource Service, with the funding returned to the missionaries concerned for disbursal. That is a welcome initiative and reflects the high standing of Irish missionaries. The establishment of a second resource mechanism for them is a formal recognition of the role they play.

Will the Minister of State examine the issue of pensions for missionaries?

We have already considered it. Officials from my Department have been in contact with the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The Chairman will be aware, having been in the belly of that beast, that the Department is not for changing and is not particularly responsive.

The Minister of State could remind the Department that it has a significant surplus in the social insurance fund. The fund could take several of his budgets at this stage.

I will meet the board of the Irish Missionary Resource Service in the next week.

The then Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, was well aware of that surplus.

I will be in contact with the IMRS and will raise with it the idea that it could facilitate the missionaries. It might be more appropriate for the IMRS to look at the specific issues.

The Minister of State could ask the IMRS to do it. There are two sets of officials but the Government has ultimate responsibility to deal with the issue. Many matters have been resolved and it might not take all that much to tidy up this welfare provision. It might be worthwhile to have somebody look at the figures.

On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Minister, the Minister of State, the Secretary General and their officials for attending today's informative meeting. The officials have promised to send on more information. We support the great work of the Department of Foreign Affairs. We have received good support and assistance from DCI and departmental officials.

The issue of a vote will arise on the presentation of the Estimates to the Dáil.

Top
Share