Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade debate -
Thursday, 11 Oct 2012

Vote 28 - Foreign Affairs and Trade

Chairman

We are holding a special meeting to consider the Estimates for public services: Vote 27 - International Co-operation; and Vote 28 - Foreign Affairs and Trade, and to discuss the 2013 allocations in the context of the multi-annual expenditure framework. On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Tániste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, and his officials to the meeting. The purpose of this meeting is to discuss with the Tánaiste the policy choices that might be considered so that the cost of activities of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade can be made within the fixed expenditure ceiling for 2013. The expenditure ceilings for each of the years 2012 and 2013 were fixed in the context of the three-year multi-annual framework that was established by the Governments' Comprehensive Expenditure Report 2012-14. An indicative ceiling was set for 2014. This means that the focus of our discussion should be on how a limited provision might be allocated rather on the adequacy of the overall provision.

This is an opportunity to engage formally with the Tánaiste on his spending plans for next year before that year commences. This is a significant and a very welcome innovation in the way spending is done. It gives practical effect to one of the core principles that the Government has said runs through all its budgetary reforms. The principle is that in a democracy better decisions are made when policy makers are held to account and when the entire policy making process is subject to a parliamentary oversight, scrutiny and participation. Parliamentary input into the resource allocation process has traditionally happened only in the context of the approval of Revised Estimates. Typically, committees have not had the opportunity to consider these Estimates until half way through the year when much of the financial provision being debated had already been spent. Key to our discussion is that there is no Estimate before the committee for discussion. This is an opportunity to influence the options that will be considered in formulating the Estimates later.

The select committee had a very constructive engagement with the Tánaiste in May this year on the 2012 Estimates and it was aided by the enhanced format, which reflected the move to performance based budgeting. This select committee is the first committee to road-test the advanced scrutiny process. I know that members and the Tánaiste, as always, will engage constructively here.

I propose we hear an opening presentation from the Tánaiste and that we structure the subsequent discussion by considering each of the five programmes in turn. Are members agreeable to our proceeding in this way? Agreed. Before I invite the Tánaiste to make his presentation, I remind him that there are two new members of the select committee since he was last here. Deputy Seán Crowe has replaced Deputy Pádraig Mac Loughlainn for the Sinn Féin Party and Deputy Brendan Smith has replaced Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl for the Fianna Fáil Party. I note Deputy Olivia Mitchell is not present but she may arrive later. I am conscious that the Tánaiste is under a time constraint as he has an important meeting at 3.45 p.m. and will need to leave at 3.40 p.m. if that is agreeable to the members. I hand over to the Tánaiste.

Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Eamon Gilmore)

I join the Chairman in welcoming Deputies Brendan Smith and Seán Crowe as members of the select committee. I had an opportunity at a meeting of the Joint Committee on European Affairs Committee to have a discussion with Deputy Crowe in his new capacity and I look forward to working with both Deputies.

Our exchanges this afternoon represent another step in the ongoing reform of the budgetary process. As the Chairman has stated, this is the first time an Oireachtas committee has discussed the formation of the annual departmental Estimates in advance of the finalisation of the budget. I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate and I will bear the views of members in mind in considering the distribution of the funds allocated to my Department. I hope the members can agree that this is not the occasion for a debate on wider Government budgetary policy. There will be an opportunity for such a debate the week after next in the House and, therefore, I will confine my remarks today to the priorities and resourcing of my Department for 2013.

As part of the performance budgeting system, we presented more detail in the 2012 Estimates on our expenditure plans and on the relationship between money being spent and targets being achieved. A range of relevant indicators provide benchmarks against which the performance of the Department can be measured. While this approach is still in its formative stages, I hope members are finding it helpful and I believe it will contribute to greater public understanding of the Department’s work.

In preparing the Estimates for 2013, we will again set ambitious, attainable targets that reflect the programme for Government, are in line with the Department’s statement of strategy and take account of the available resources. The new budgetary procedures operate within the framework of the overall limits on Government spending which, as members know, are set in accordance with the troika programme. Within that overall amount, expenditure ceilings were set for each Department for 2013 in the comprehensive expenditure report last November. For the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade that amounts to €733 million for delivery of the diverse range of citizen services, economic promotion, programme management and policy advisory functions discharged by the Department across the globe. That ceiling is also fixed. Any increase for one programme is necessarily at the expense of another activity. Members can be assured that I will be working to ensure that we get the maximum value from the available funds.

In July, my Department forwarded to the committee a working-through of the implications of the comprehensive expenditure report on the allocations for 2013. The overall level of reduction foreseen was €27.7 million across the two Votes for which I am responsible. At the request of the committee, we modelled the impact of a pro rata reduction across the various departmental programmes. The effect on the services we deliver and the outcomes we pursue is described in the accompanying commentary.

International co-operation, funded under Vote 27, is the largest programme administered by the Department. Despite the pressures of recent years, the aid programme is independently rated as one of the most effective in the world. It is sharply focused on the fight against hunger and poverty in some of the poorest countries, with a clear geographic concentration on sub-Saharan Africa. The Government is committed to keeping development at the heart of Ireland’s foreign policy and to maintaining the focus on Africa. Last year, I launched the Department’s new Africa strategy. We are now using our resources at home and in our network of missions across the continent to broaden our relations with African countries to encompass political engagement, a strong focus on development issues and the building of new economic and trading links.

We are also completing our review of the 2006 White Paper on Irish Aid, an important commitment in the programme for Government. The public consultation process for the review underscored the strong levels of support for the aid programme, even at a time of great economic difficulty at home, and the recognition that it operates in the interests of the poorest people and communities in the world, but also in our interests as a small country in an increasingly interdependent world.

In the most challenging of circumstances, the Government has succeeded in maintaining Ireland’s official development assistance above 0.5% of GNP. We remain committed to reaching the UN target of 0.7% as soon as we possibly can, based on the restoration of sustained economic growth domestically. We will continue to play a strong role in the formation of international development policy, especially when we take on the role of EU Presidency in the first half of 2013. During the Presidency, I look forward in particular to opening up the debate across Europe on the millennium development goals and the shape of policy for global development after 2015. In doing so, this country will continue to emphasise the centrality to international development of the fight against hunger and undernutrition, and the lessons we have learned from our own work on the ground in Africa and elsewhere since the establishment of the aid programme 40 years ago, in 1973.

On emergency humanitarian needs, this country will continue to respond as quickly and as effectively as we have over many years. We have learned many lessons from our interventions ranging from the Asian tsunami to the earthquake in Haiti, which we continue to put into practice in situations as diverse as Syria and Sudan. We have helped save countless lives and also built the capacity of communities to withstand future shocks through our work on building resilience. In Somalia in July I witnessed at first hand how devastated communities can almost miraculously rebuild if they have the means and help that we can offer. We will continue to offer that vital assistance.

This country's ongoing high profile on international peace, security and human rights issues consolidates and enhances the positive image the State has traditionally enjoyed abroad and sends a strong message about our capacity to work through our economic difficulties. Our largest financial commitment in this area relates to our contribution to the UN and other organisations. The actual amount is hard to predict as it depends on a number of variables, including the adoption of a new contribution key later this year, the number and scale of UN peacekeeping missions and on the exchange rate between the euro and the dollar. Our chairmanship-in-office of the OSCE culminates with the major challenge of the ministerial meeting in Dublin in early December. We assume the Presidency of the European Union in the new year. We are running a strong campaign for membership of the Human Rights Council. That election is scheduled for next month and the outcome will have a bearing on our internal resource deployment.

The EU Presidency is probably the single biggest project for 2013, not just for my Department but across the system, including for the Oireachtas. Management of the Presidency will place enormous demands on staff in my Department at home and abroad. We aim to optimise the cost-effectiveness of the Presidency and have taken a number of measures to reduce outgoings as much as possible. These include the use of Dublin Castle and similar State-owned venues to host all meetings in Ireland. We have temporarily doubled the number of staff in the permanent representation in Brussels but have squeezed the additional personnel into the existing premises.

The indications are that we should be able to adhere to the original budget of €60 million across all Departments over two years, which is appreciably less than the cost of our previous Presidency in 2004. There will be a separate budget for security. A successful Presidency coupled with the ongoing promotion of our business interests will further our efforts to communicate our economic progress to a global audience. We are working closely with the relevant semi-State bodies and local authorities in a co-operative fashion. We are also considering some helpful sponsorship offers that will reduce some of the cost.

The passport service is now servicing a record level of demand more cost-effectively and within the turnaround times guaranteed for applicants. My Department is pursuing a number of further technology-based service enhancements. These include moving to a new counter appointments service instead of the existing queuing arrangement and the introduction of an online renewal option for adults. These improvements, and the already overdue replacement of production machinery, will require some initial capital investment. While individual situations are impossible to predict, we are planning on the basis that we will need to respond to something of the order of 1,500 serious consular cases next year and will stand ready to respond to large-scale emergencies that might arise.

Recent events in Northern Ireland are a reminder of the journey that remains to be travelled on the path to reconciliation on this island. The reconciliation and anti-sectarianism funds are focused on the most disadvantaged communities in Northern Ireland. This includes engagement with young people, especially those living in at-risk areas. Support is being provided to projects in interface areas designed to address the root causes of sectarianism and which are aimed at breaking down barriers between communities. In addition, the funds will be used in the promotion of North-South co-operation and linkages and as a support to commemoration events.

Delivery of all of these programmes relies heavily on the work of the officials in my Department at home and abroad. Even allowing for the temporary additional posts sanctioned for the Presidency, the Department is managing an unprecedented conjuncture of major international responsibilities with some 10% fewer staff than it had three years ago. This is placing exceptional demands on personnel, the majority of whom are engaged in providing direct services to Irish citizens and business or supporting delivery of the Irish Aid programme to some of the poorest and most vulnerable people in the world. The pressures we face have necessitated a nimble response. We have consolidated and streamlined functions at headquarters. Abroad, the level and scale of our representation has necessarily been reduced in some locations and, regrettably, we were obliged to close three missions at the end of last year.

We have also proactively taken a range of other measures to reduce our cost base and maximise the return for each euro we spend. The administrative cost of delivery of the Department’s services has been reduced by approximately a fifth in the past three years. The search for further efficiencies continues unceasingly but realistically there are limits to the additional economies that can be made without adverse impact on service delivery. The level of funding foreseen for 2013 is going to force us to make further hard choices in the Department. Until the final budgetary arithmetic and some of the other variables I have mentioned are crystallised, I cannot be more precise as to where the adjustments will fall.

I trust that the committee will understand the challenges facing me, as they face all Ministers, and that we can work together to ensure that we achieve the best possible outcomes on foreign affairs and trade with the resources available to us.

Chairman

With the co-operation of members we will take questions under the five programmes. I will go through each programme as efficiently as possible because of the time constraints. I ask members to confine themselves to asking questions rather than making statements. Everyone will get to contribute on five occasions. I am conscious that the Tánaiste has an important commitment. We will start with Vote 28, which has four sections. The first area relates to the promotion of this country's economic and trade interests in Europe and internationally. I ask members to confine their questions to that area and we will address the other areas in sequence.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I welcome the Tánaiste and look forward to working with him. This is a new committee from my perspective. The material we received was prepared by the Department in July 2012. What was the expenditure profile of the Department at the end of September? If there is an underspend in some areas it would help us in trying to assess where it might be possible to make savings. We can come back to the issue later if the Tánaiste prefers.

With regard to promoting Ireland's economic and trade interests, when the trade remit was transferred to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade at the time of the Minister's appointment, did extra resources come with it? We all realise the importance of trade and export opportunities. I commend those responsible for all the work that has taken place in this regard. The work falls under the remit of a number of Departments.

The World Trade Organisation comprises a very important issue for us. Could the Tánaiste update us on it? The issue was discussed briefly at a recent meeting of the committee. Are there signs of a return to a plenary session?

Deputy Seán Crowe

I was not sure of the format of the meeting. A question that springs to mind on trade is related to the remit of the Department. Am I correct in stating many of the staff in the embassies will be transferred home for the EU Presidency? What impact will this have on trade? Some consular offices have only one or two members of staff. At a time when there is pressure on us to promote trade, what will be the impact on the Department? If one loses a vice consul, is pressure then placed on the consul in any given area? I am thinking of areas such as San Francisco, which is to lose staff. A considerable proportion of the trade between Ireland and the United States is associated with the region incorporating San Francisco. If we are withdrawing staff from this area, what will be the impact? People refer to the positive role of embassy staffs, including individuals, in some areas with regard to the promotion of trade.

With a view to saving money, could the staff of the IDA, Enterprise Ireland and consular services be placed in one building such that we would have a one-stop shop? There are cost implications but, in the longer term, it would be ideal. Everyone would be singing from the same hymn sheet.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

Earlier today, I was at two events, one of which concerned the global hunger index and the other the girl child. I have these in mind making my contribution. I listened to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, talking about sustainable development. He made a point about the commitment to overseas development aid and millennium development goals and stated our overseas development aid programme focuses on promoting sustainability, food and nutrition, and security, and that the new, more practical approach will create greater opportunities for the meaningful involvement of the private sector.

Having been at a conference on Africa recently, at which we were examining the wealth of that Continent, particularly in terms of minerals and natural resources, I noted the conflict that can arise between those who wish to exploit natural resources and those who are trying to use the land to produce food. We must be conscious of ethical engagement if there are Irish companies involved in meaningful trade. We must not go down the route of many other countries and multinational companies by engaging in a land grab that does not have the best interest of the African communities at heart. The question of trade, therefore, is broad.

Deputy Eric Byrne

It is interesting that the closure of the embassies did not affect our re-establishment of the beef trade with Iran. This should be welcomed. The closing of an embassy does not mean the doors will be closed on one forever.

I appreciate that the Africa strategy is relatively young. However, we are becoming increasingly conscious, as we drift away from the black-baby box concept, that there are countries within the continent of Africa that are of growing economic importance. Is there preliminary feedback on our trade with African colleagues?

The President is in Brazil at present and I understand he is accompanied by the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. As the Minister is formulating his budget for next year, he should target the BRIC countries. There is no doubt that we have done a good day's work already in Brazil through heightening our profile. I am not quite sure, however, that we are benefiting sufficiently from our relationships with Russia and India.

We see Chinese visitors in our Parliament every other week, which clearly indicates there is great interest in Ireland in China. I understand the DIT is doing phenomenally well in establishing a college in China, where it will specialise in tourism and catering. We are contributing in that regard. Given the excellent relationship we are developing with China, is there any tangible sign yet of knock-on effects such as investment or growth in Ireland?

We should concentrate on the developing countries that are now powerful. I congratulate those who decided to incorporate the trade mission with the presidential visits. I congratulate the President, who has taken time out to learn Spanish at Santander university in Spain.

The Tánaiste's Department is the poster-boy Department. We would very much like to see its funding retained. I hope the funding will follow the Tánaiste as he is to be chairman of the OSCE next year. We could debate that another day. Next year will be very important. The budgetary allocation for a successful six-month term of the EU Presidency is important.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I am having a little difficulty getting my head around the matter. After a quick perusal, it seems that if changes were made in respect of programme A, it would seriously impair our engagement with Asia. Change in respect of the second programme would have serious consequences for recipient organisations. In respect of programme C, the funds are already oversubscribed. With regard to the fourth programme, cuts would jeopardise key interests of the State. There is an expenditure ceiling. Is there a circle to be squared? Is there money to be saved that has not been saved? Can the Department not identify the savings that it needs? I may be misreading the documentation.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

It is important to explain what we are seeking to do in regard to trade. A number of Departments and agencies are involved in the trade function. These include the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, the IDA and Enterprise Ireland. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has responsibility for Bord Bia and food exports. The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport is responsible for tourism activity. A number of other Departments now have a trade role, including the Department of Education and Skills. Education is now a product being traded.

We are seeking to have co-ordination. The lead role in any country is taken by the embassy.

The resources of both my Department and the agencies concerned are limited and consequently, we seek to achieve the greatest possible degree of co-ordination on the ground in individual countries and markets. Second, we seek to back that up here at home, mainly through the Export Trade Council the Government has established, which the respective Ministers to whom I have referred, as well as their Departments and agencies attend. In addition, the council has representatives of the private sector. For example, in countries such as Russia, we have a joint economic commission that reports through it and there are 27 separate market plans which it reports back to us. There is now in place a much more joined-up approach to trade activity. In order to provide resources to so do, some additional staff were transferred to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. I believe the total increased allocation to meet that was approximately €400,000, mainly to provide that degree of co-ordination. I believe this is working and clearly, much of the growth of 1.4% recorded in the economy last year is export-related. The Ireland House concept, that is, the idea of having all these agencies under a single roof is something to which we try to give effect where we can. It functions very well in a number of countries and we wish to expand it.

On the issue raised by Deputy Crowe regarding consular services, as I have explained to the select committee a number of times previously, the number of diplomatic staff Ireland has compared with countries of similar size is very small. I believe we have a total of 347 all told, whereas Denmark has more than 800 such staff and countries such as Finland have approximately similar numbers. We must use our staff to best effect which is the reason, for example, when faced with something like the Presidency, we are obliged to redeploy staff from missions. However, we so do in a manner that ensures the consular services in different parts of the world are maintained.

Deputy Eric Byrne raised the strategy regarding the African countries. The current position is that as a country, we export as much in food and drink to Nigeria alone as we do to China. At present, seven of the ten fastest-growing economies in the world are located in Africa. Ireland has a high reputation in Africa, much of it derived from the success of our aid programme and it is a way of opening doors for us on the trade front, which is the reason we give such a priority to it. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan raised the international day of the girl child and I note Ireland was one of the countries which co-sponsored the resolution that established the day. We give a high priority in all our work, whether on the aid side or the human rights side, to gender equality and in our aid programme we work to support programmes that, for example, support education for girls. As for sustainability, the issue of sustainability underpins Ireland's entire approach to the aid programme. I hope it also will underpin the involvement of the private sector in the programme. This year, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and I jointly launched a programme in Kenya and Tanzania, in which we are involving private sector food companies in our aid programme because, as the Deputy noted, there is huge potential in Africa for the development of the food industry. We now have the active engagement of a number of Ireland's major food companies in that programme. It is a highly innovative approach to extending our aid programme, in that work the Government has been doing for years will now involve the private sector, which will work with private companies in African countries in the development of their food programme and the upskilling of their food processing.

Chairman

I thank the Tánaiste. We will now turn to Vote 28, programme B, which pertains to consular, passport and Irish abroad services. Some of these subjects already have been covered.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I welcome the Tánaiste's commitment to enhance further the delivery of the passport service. I wish to record my thanks to staff in the Passport Office and the Tánaiste's own office because while dealing with constituency work during the summer, I encountered plenty of issues. A media campaign still is required to encourage people to apply for passports in time. All members receive weekend calls on Friday evenings or Saturday mornings involving people going on holidays or whatever. However, I wish to record my appreciation for the assistance of the staff involved. As for the Irish abroad programme, all members are aware that unfortunately, people still are living in difficult circumstances in the major cities in Britain, the United States and elsewhere. The Irish abroad programme has been highly successful and it is clear, from visiting different Irish communities in different cities, particularly in Britain, the assistance that has been given is valued. However, such assistance probably still is needed.

I have often thought that with society having more active retired people, there may be an opportunity to engage with people who are retired from employment and to get them involved. For several years, the numbers of people active within the Irish community have been declining and the age profile has been rising. While the embassy staff would be in a better position to judge, I believe an opportunity exists to engage more people. During the passage through the Oireachtas of the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Bill, Deputies Crowe and Maureen O'Sullivan and I met people from London who were dealing with Irish people who had been the victims of abuse in residential institutions. There still is a major need to provide assistance and help to many Irish people living in many different communities. Consequently, I am anxious for the maintenance of whatever assistance is possible for that programme, as it is put to good use by volunteers in those cities.

Deputy Seán Crowe

On consular cases, the Tánaiste indicated he expected 1,500 such cases to arise. On what is that figure based? Is it based on previous years? As for the emigrants' service, I am conscious it is estimated that over the past three years, approximately 200,000 mainly young Irish people have emigrated abroad. I believe 87,000 did so last year, 81,500 in 2010 and probably tens of thousands this year. I presume the demand for services and support will be a lot higher in consequence. How can the Department support such demand? Much of the emigrants' services provided in Britain are directed towards an older population. Is there the same demand for some of those younger people who are going there? All members have received the telephone call at the weekend to the effect that Mary or Johnny so-and-so has been arrested in the United States or is in difficulty in Australia. What is in place in that regard? Based on previous experience, I presume demand will rise again this year.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I am very pleased to hear change is afoot in respect of passports. I also wish to note my appreciation of the great help I always have received - particularly this summer when it appears as though very many people forgot to check their passports. Certainly, where help could be given it was, which I appreciate. However, there has been slippage in the time regarding the general queueing at the Passport Office and it is good that changes are planned. Moreover, the online service is a great idea and is particularly useful because so many Irish people now live abroad. I presume it will also be available to them as such a service will be a great bonus for people renewing their passports. When does the Tánaiste expect the online service to be up and running?

Deputy Eric Byrne

I wish to add my appreciation for the passport service. All of us have come across genuine emergencies requiring immediate issue of passports and the service has been extremely co-operative and supportive.

In response to the tragic history of abuse of our passports by agents of other governments, including Israel and, perhaps, Russia, improvements have been made to the bolometric structures attached to passports. How secure are our passports compared to those of other countries? Are we at a stage where agents of foreign countries will no longer be able to abuse our passports?

Chairman

These questions may not concern budgetary issues.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I apologise to Deputy Mitchell for not answering her earlier question. It was a hard question and I ask her to give me a bit more time to think about it. The Department has made considerable savings over the last three years in respect of money and staff numbers. I pay tribute to the staff of the Department for meeting increased demands for services with fewer people and resources.

We expect the online service for renewal of passports for adults to be available worldwide by the end of 2013. I thank members for their complimentary remarks about the passport service. We have seen a significant improvement in the service over the course of last year. The performance target for 2012 was to process 60% of passport express applications within ten days and 90% within 15 days. In 2012 we managed to process 78% of passport express applications within ten days and 99.55% within 15 days. As of 30 September 2012, 529,152 passports have been produced this year, which represents an increase of almost 4% on last year’s figure. We also intend to introduce a different counter management system and an appointment system in order to address the issue of queueing. We are now at the upper end and are probably world leaders in terms of security of our passports. We intend to introduce a higher specification passport booklet next year to further enhance the security of Irish passports and reduce the potential for abuse.

Deputies Smith and Crowe raised the issue of the Irish abroad. We are trying to address two situations. The first is the longer term emigrant, that is, people who emigrated in the 1950s and 1960s and in many cases sent back remittances to Ireland. Some of these emigrants are living in difficult circumstances and we continue to provide support to emigrant services in the UK and the United States. These kinds of support services tend to be more heavily dependent on grant aid from the Department, whereas younger emigrants are more dependent on consular services.

We have opened an emigrant support service in Toronto in Canada and are working with the Canadian Department of Citizenship and Immigration to support our emigrants. When the Canadian Minister for Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, Jason Kenney, visited Ireland last week he announced an increase in the number of visas available to Irish people working in Canada, as well as an extension in the validity of visas from one to two years.

The GAA makes a significant contribution by acting as a point of contact with younger emigrants. We are working with the GAA to provide support to young emigrants.

The total number of consular cases is higher than 1,500 but this is an estimate of the serious cases which require a degree of attention. It is difficult to predict the number of cases in a given year but our estimates are based on experience.

Chairman

The committee witnessed at first hand the work done by the GAA when we visited Treasure Island GAA club in San Francisco earlier this year. That club is very thankful for the funding that the Department provides and the same can be said for many other emigrant groups.

As I want to spend more time on Vote 27, poverty and hunger reduction, I propose to take Vote 28, subheads C and D, together. Subhead C is reconciliation and co-operation on this Ireland and D is international peace, security and human rights.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I would like to make one point arising from our earlier discussion. Our excellent reputation will be severely tarnished if Irish companies get involved in tax evasion and tax avoidance in African countries.

On subhead C, I presume the key outputs continue to be the maintenance of peace and stability and support for better mutual understanding. However, we will make a mockery of this budget unless we deal with human rights issues involving certain prisoners in Northern Ireland. Peace and stability will be undermined if these issues are not addressed. The response from the Tánaiste to my questions on this subject is that the Department is monitoring the situation as it affects Marian Price and others. I will not go down the road of discussing their political views because I am concerned about their human rights. If Ms Price either leaves prison as a skeleton or dies in prison, peace and stability will be severely undermined.

The Defence Forces have earned a superb reputation for peacekeeping but I am concerned about Irish money being spent on peacekeeping operations which involve armies from other countries with questionable reputations. Members of some of these armies have been involved in the rape of young women, robberies and assaults.

Deputy Brendan Smith

The reconciliation and co-operation unit has achieved a considerable return on a small investment over the past several years. They have targeted the most disadvantaged communities and I have engaged with departmental officials in advocating and promoting schemes. I hope it will be possible to continue this work. The danger of trouble and thuggery is ever present in some communities and it was disheartening to see over the summer that certain political leaders lacked the guts or decency to condemn the thuggery that occurred in north Belfast in particular. We must be careful to ensure these events do not spiral out of control.

The International Fund for Ireland has done excellent work since it was established in the mid-1980s. It has managed to leverage a considerable amount of community activity in the Six Counties and the six Southern Border counties. I wish the Tánaiste well in his chairmanship of the OSCE. Preparatory for the chairmanship since it was decided in 2009 that Ireland would hold the chairmanship.

There will be a big saving in the Vote when the chairmanship ends and I am sure it will be put to good use.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I agree with Deputy O'Sullivan about the festering sore that is the cases of individuals who have ended up in prison, which is undermining the positive work carried out in many communities in this regard. It indicates significant matters are outstanding and need to be addressed in the area of reconciliation and anti-sectarian funding. We had another snapshot of this earlier this year to remind us that these difficulties remain. Many awkward discussions, as described by my party colleagues, are going on in many communities and they need to be encouraged and built on as they involved people who were involved in the past in the conflict. They are trying to create a new beginning following the hurt imposed on many individuals. The sectarian footprint is still bubbling away under the surface and the committee can send a positive message that we need to continue the peace building and support of community relations. All of us are worried about cutbacks to the funding, particularly for the positive inter-community work which is being carried on quietly. Senator McAleese is doing significant work with people from a loyalist background. We need to support and encourage this and it would send the wrong message if we cut funds in this area.

Deputy Eric Byrne

It is an eye-opener for those of us in the South who do not know the North as well as the Sinn Féin representatives that walls, fences and gateways still divide neighbourhoods between Nationalists and Unionists. That brings it very much into focus how tenuous relationships are between the two communities, particularly when 30,000 loyal Unionists march and there are counter-demonstrations. Then we read the Marian Price statements and hear that a thousand people attended the funeral of a Real IRA member in Dublin. It makes us sharply conscious that Northern Ireland has not gone away. It is amazing that in 2012 such scenarios exist. The State still has to watch the peace process carefully and nurture the progressive community development programmes funded by the Government.

Vote 27 also deals with international co-operation and expenditure on civil society programmes. The work and targeted funding through overseas aid programmes on issues such as HIV-AIDS and education is admirable. Irish Aid's work is phenomenally important and it helps us in the international arena to raise Ireland's profile, which is out of proportion with its size in comparison to other aid agencies. I support the budget to maintain spending in this field.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The issue of co-operation and reconciliation in Northern Ireland and throughout the island has been one of the main functions of my Department for some time and we work on it at a number of levels. There is North-South co-operation, the work of the North-South Ministerial Council and work I do in conjunction with both the First Minister and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland at a number of levels. First, there is the issue raised by a number of Deputies, notwithstanding the progress at political and institutional level in the North, about the continuing underlying sectarian difficulties in many communities. That is why we have the funds to promote co-operation and tackle sectarianism, which are important. European Union PEACE funding has also been provided. We have been in discussion with the UK Administration about this issue because there are differing views between Ireland and the UK, for example, on the composition of the EU budget to 2020. The UK wants to reduce the budget while Ireland wants to maintain it and there will be consequences in all of that for PEACE funding. That is something to which we are giving a high priority.

I have discussed the issue of prisoners and the case of Marian Price, which was mentioned by Deputy O'Sullivan, with the recently appointed Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and his predecessor. It has been discussed at official level and I have discussed it with the Northern Ireland Minister of Justice, David Ford, who has devolved responsibility for prisons. It is something about which we are concerned and we will keep it to the fore in our discussions with the UK. Following this meeting I will meet the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, but I have discussed it in recent times with the Secretary of State.

Deputy O'Sullivan raised the issue of investment and so on. Our Africa strategy is based on ethical investment and absolute adherence to good taxation practices and national laws. Our participation in peacekeeping missions is on the basis of UN mandate. It does not require us to work closely with each member of the UN-mandated force. We usually work with partners such as the Nordic states. With regard to the behaviour of armies, we have been one of the promoters of UN Security Council Resolution 1325 and we were one of the first countries to adopt a national action plan in that regard. Our mission and permanent representative at the UN is very much to the fore in the promotion of human rights issues at all times in UN discussions.

The budget for the OSCE was a once-off but that does not mean we do not have that money next year. The money was there because the OSCE chairmanship was happening in 2012 and it will not be repeated but, in 2013, we have the EU Presidency and we have to make that happen with our resources as well.

Chairman

We will discuss Vote 27, which is a major budgetary measure dealing with poverty and hunger reduction.

Deputy Brendan Smith

The Minister said in his opening remarks that significant progress had been made through Irish Aid and ODA over the years. When the UN High Commissioner for Refugees appeared before the committee earlier, he praised Ireland's contribution over the past decade in many areas, particularly sub-Saharan Africa. The Chairman acknowledged well, on behalf of the Oireachtas, that we appreciated his commendation of the work of Irish Aid in many countries. The work, which is varied, has been hugely important. Deputy O'Sullivan referred to encouraging funding development rather than only providing humanitarian assistance. Does the €514 million allocation include money from other Departments such as the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? That Department used to provide €7 million or €8 million and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government used to make a contribution as well.

Deputy Eric Byrne outlined, correctly, the number of disturbing incidents that occurred in the past few weeks relating to Northern Ireland.

I represent two of the southern Border counties and spent my initial years as a public representative in Dáil Éireann dealing with issues on a daily basis that affected the communities in Cavan, Monaghan and neighbouring counties North of the Border. The Tánaiste referred to the substantial progress that has been made. The political, social and human landscape in Ulster has been transformed magnificently for the benefit of all on the island. I travel through Fermanagh to go to different parts of Cavan and Monaghan and no longer need to go through permanent vehicle checkpoints.

Deputy Seán Crowe

Those are positive developments.

When the Tánaiste addressed the UN General Assembly in New York he reiterated that Ireland would reach the overseas aid target of 0.7% by 2015. How will we reach that target? I believe the aid budget has been cut by a third in recent years. Most people who are active in this area wonder how we will reach the target. If there are to be cuts, what areas will be cut? Will this have a direct impact, resulting in children not being fed? What impacts will there be down the line? What programmes will need to be cut back? Every year we hear of a new crisis in a different part of the world. What will do if the money is not there and the demands are? Clearly, things are getting worse in many countries. People have pointed out that the Tánaiste gave the speech in New York and then announced a cut when he came back to Ireland.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I am totally committed to keeping our aid budget intact. I acknowledge the work of the Minister, Deputy Howlin, in keeping the focus on it in last year's budget, and I wish the Tánaiste well in doing the same this year. Will we reach the target by 2015? What cuts have been made in administration and consultancy expenses, which may have potential for reduction?

Deputy Eric Byrne

How is emergency humanitarian assistance managed? If we have a set budget and there is a significant sequence of earthquakes, tsunamis or whatever, are we strictly bound by the terms of the budget? I note that we recently released additional money for Syria and South Sudan. One thinks of money always being available in emergencies. Do we need to stick rigidly to the budget regardless of tsunamis or other international crises, or do we have access to additional funding?

I commend those involved in the rapid response initiative. There are unofficial ambassadors representing Ireland in all sorts of agencies. We are engaging with the diaspora to bring investment to Ireland. However, we have not yet rewarded people who volunteer for rapid responses to crises throughout the world. They deserve some sort of recognition or status because they drop whatever they are doing to go off and do phenomenal humanitarian work.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I am not sure if I am reading this correctly. The revised allocation for this year is €514 million and the allocation under subhead E is €524 million. Does this indicate that the allocation is increasing? If that is so, why is the ratio of ODA to GNP reducing? Is GNP increasing at such a rate that the ratio is dropping? Obviously, it is great if the amount is increasing but the target as a percentage of GNP is important and we need to have our ducks in a row.

Chairman

I call the Tánaiste.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

I am not sure if that is a valid question.

Chairman

The Deputy is a new member of the committee.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I agree with Deputy Smith that the landscape in Ulster has changed dramatically since the settlement. However, we need to continue to work on it, which is why my Department continues its very vigilant engagement on Northern Ireland and the North-South relationship. That is why we had people on the ground during the parades and other events that took place during the summer. It is a responsibility of my Department to which I give top priority. It is not possible to underestimate the maintenance work we need to do on it. While it is not always in the news, it requires ongoing work. There is a very big commitment from my Department to working with Northern Ireland institutions, the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and so on. While I know a separate committee deals with Northern Ireland issues, it is probably a matter to which we should return.

The €514 million does not include the contribution of other Departments in the area of overseas aid. Regarding what Deputy Crowe said, I did not say at the UN that we would meet the 0.7% target by 2015; I said that we were committed to meeting the 0.7% target and that we would do so when we are able to do so economically and as our economic situation improves. I do not believe anybody expects us to meet the 0.7% target by 2015 in our present economic difficulties and therefore there is no merit in our making statements to that effect. The 0.7% is the target that has been agreed internationally. We are aiming at that target and remain committed to reaching it. As evidence of our good faith, it is important to point out that in difficult times we are maintaining our aid budget. There were significant reductions in the aid budget in previous years, with reductions of approximately 30% since 2008. The Government has maintained our commitment to aid.

Deputy Mitchell asked about the difference between the €514 million and the €524 million. It is based on a proportion of GNP and we do not know the GNP with ongoing quarterly revisions.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

Are we protecting an optimistic revision?

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

It is related to that. I was pleased to hear the UN High Commissioner for Refugees say, both in his meeting with me yesterday and again on radio this morning, that there is appreciation among the international community that despite our economic difficulties we are maintaining our faith.

Deputy Crowe is correct. We do not want to be in a situation where we must cut back programmes which are, literally, about life and death issues. Irish people are proud of the work we do, even though we are doing it in very difficult economic circumstances.

Deputy Seán Crowe

A survey showed that 82% of Irish people surveyed were positive towards it.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

People see what is happening in refugee camps, be it in Syria or Sudan. I saw it myself during the summer when I went to Mogadishu. I was the first Irish Minister to go there for about 20 years. We see appalling conditions in refugee camps. One sees our financial commitment, the support we give to NGOs and how much it means. I saw children attending schools and the rubble of a devastated city. I saw schools being rebuilt and being used for a variety of other purposes. We must maintain our commitment to and faith in the poorest people in the world. It is the right thing to do and strengthens this country's reputation. As I said when we were talking about the trade issues earlier, apart from it being the right thing to do, it will also benefit us in the long run. We are now opening up opportunities for trade in places where we were providing aid years ago during famines.

In respect of emergencies-----

Deputy Seán Crowe

How will the Government reach the commitment?

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

We are determined to reach the commitment. The State's objective is to reach the 0.7% target and we are not demurring from that. We remain committed to it. As everybody knows, the question of when we reach that target is dependent on our economic recovery. We have maintained the figure above 0.5%, which is still in the top end of the league table of commitment internationally. There is great appreciation of the fact that we have maintained it at that level. The figure of 0.7% is the target towards which we will work but reaching it is, as everybody knows, dependent on our economic recovery and the improvement in our financial circumstances.

In respect of the issue raised by Deputy Eric Byrne, emergencies vary from year to year. We have a fund from which we draw money to deal with emergencies. Deputy O'Sullivan raised the issue of consultants in the aid area. They deal mainly with the evaluations as our programmes must be evaluated. Much of that is for evaluation and auditing of the programmes. Deputy Eric Byrne raised the issue of the recognition of volunteers who work in developing countries. This year for the first time, the President will give awards to members of the Irish diaspora in recognition of their work. People who have worked and are working in development are included in that honours list and will be recognised as part of the presidential awards.

Chairman

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I was suggesting that those who make themselves available for these rapid response exercises should be recognised, for example, people in the rescue services. These people sacrifice everything. I understand that 44 additional members have been recruited to the initiative.

Chairman

I thank the Tánaiste and will add my own few words about Ireland's reputation, which is at an all-time high abroad. We see evidence of this economically, from the visitors to this committee and from our visits abroad. There is no doubt that the Irish Aid programme is one of the best out there. Most of the money we give to our NGOs is well-spent. The Tánaiste is aware that the committee will be visiting Sierra Leone with Irish Aid officials for three or four days next week to see at first hand the funding that is allocated from that programme to Sierra Leone. This is the first time an Oireachtas committee will visit a post-conflict area instead of a programme country.

I am conscious of the Tánaiste's time. I thank him for attending the meeting and engaging so constructively with the committee. I look forward to working with him and the committee on the year's budgetary process. I know the Tánaiste and the committee will play an increasingly relevant role in it. I also acknowledge and welcome his senior officials: David Cooney, Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Brendan Rogers, director general of Irish Aid; David Donoghue, assistant secretary, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; and Barry Robinson, assistant secretary, corporate services division, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I thank them for being with us. We tried to run the meeting as efficiently as possible. I know the Tánaiste has a very busy private secretary beckoning him to proceed to his next appointment. We again thank him.

The select committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m. sine die.