I welcome everyone to the meeting, including the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, and his officials. This meeting has been convened to consider Committee Stage of the Tailte Éireann Bill 2022, with which we will now proceed.
Tailte Éireann Bill 2022: Committee Stage
Before we commence, I wish to inform the members that consideration is being given to providing, on Report Stage, for the staggering of certain commencement notices.
Could the Minister of State explain that?
I am referring to staggering commencement notices of the legislation. We may introduce amendments on that. The Minister is considering it at the moment.
Staggering which bits of commencement notices over what period? I am asking out of interest.
The repeal provisions. Those are what are being considered at the moment.
I thank the Minister of State.
Sections 1 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTION
Amendment No. 1, in the name of Deputy Cian O'Callaghan, and amendment No. 4, in the name of Deputy Ó Broin, are related and are to be discussed together. Does Deputy Ó Broin wish to go first? I do not know whether Deputy Cian O'Callaghan is online. Maybe he will join us shortly.
I move amendment No. 1:
In page 7, between lines 33 and 34, to insert the following:
“Report on the establishment of a Land Price Register
8. The Minister shall, not later than 6 months after the passing of this Act, commission and publish a report on the establishment of a Land Price Register to be operated by Tailte Éireann which would—
(a) expand the register that records residential property sales prices,
(b) establish a new land and other non-residential property transaction database,
(c) set out in detail all other key considerations.”.
To save time, I will speak to all three of my amendments. We can deal with them as a group informally. I do not intend to press any of them but i want the opportunity to raise their content with the Minister of State directly in order that he and his officials can at least consider the arguments at a later date. Two of them relate directly to recommendations that the committee made during pre-legislative scrutiny, and one relates to an issue that has been brought to my attention.
The first amendment in my name, amendment No. 2, relates to the digitisation process for the Land Registry. I am sure that in the Minister of State's constituency work, as with mine and that of others, he has dealt with cases involving disputes over title. Unfortunately, because of historical anomalies in the pre-digitised Land Registry records or inadequacies in the digitisation process itself, these disputes can be very significant. These can be very difficult to resolve when the Land Registry records are not accurate. I raised this on Second Stage. Once the Bill is passed and Tailte Éireann is created, one of the first things it will be really useful for the Land Registry facility to consider will be a review of the digitisation process. This should involve assessing the extent and causes of the problems to ascertain whether they can be resolved. I am interested in hearing the Minister of State's thoughts on it. Could the Department request Tailte Éireann to do this work in its first year or 18 months of existence?
Confusion over the digitisation of maps was raised with me also. The establishment of a new agency provides us with an opportunity to address these issues for those who encounter the difficulties described.
Are we dealing with amendments Nos. 1 and 4, or does the Chairman want me to-----
I am going to take amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 4 in order, if that is acceptable.
To keep things in order, reflecting how we normally proceed, amendments Nos. 1 and 4 will be discussed together.
The Deputy can speak to amendment No. 4, I will then deal with amendment No. 1 and then we are finished.
Is it easier if I just speak to the other two amendments quickly and the Minister of State can then respond to all of them together?
I would rather take them in order, just to keep them in sequence.
On amendment No. 4, the key issue, which relates to amendment No. 3, is that we have a valuable real-time register of residential property transactions. It is a valuable tool for everybody, including purchasers, analysts, policymakers and, I am sure, the Government. The problem is that we do not have something similar for land transactions. The market in land is probably one of the most opaque. It is very difficult to know what land has been sold at what price. Given land is such a central feature of residential development costs, and it can be one of the underlying speculative elements of rising costs of development, which then result in rising costs for house prices and rents, we need a register of land sales.
In the context of the Bill, the call for a register of this type could only happen if the Property Services Regulatory Authority, PSRA, was transferred over to Tailte Éireann. I will speak to this aspect separately, in keeping with the guidance of the Chair. I am not going to press this amendment. I am, however, interested in hearing the thinking of the Minister of State and the Department regarding the idea of having such a register and whether it would be something the Government will at least actively consider because it would be such a valuable tool for us all to have. If we can do this for residential property prices, then I fail to see why we cannot do this for land transactions.
This group of amendments relates to the information to be collected and made available by Tailte Éireann under a new section 8. I understand the intention of these amendments is that Tailte Éireann would commission a report to explore the feasibility of expanding the register to include an additional set of land and non-residential property information. I very much appreciate the objective of the Deputies' amendments, but there are several reasons I wish to put forward for my disposition not to accept them.
The intention of the Bill is to bring about the merger of Property Registration Authority, Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Valuation Office, which includes the transfer of the current functions of these bodies, into Tailte Éireann. It is not envisaged that the current functions of the existing bodies will be expanded during the merger process. Under section 23(6) of the legislation, "Tailte Éireann may, from time to time, prepare and submit to the Minister such other reports in relation to its activities as it considers appropriate". In addition, under section 23(7), "the Minister may give a direction, in writing, to Tailte Éireann to prepare and submit to him or her a report, in writing, not later than such date as the Minister specifies in the direction, in relation to any particular matter relating to the functions of Tailte Éireann as the Minister considers appropriate". It would not be appropriate, therefore, to separately legislate for specific reports as is envisaged by the proposed amendment.
On the data currently available on residential property sales prices, the Property Registration Authority maintains, and Tailte Éireann will take on this task on its establishment, the national land register, which is electronic, publicly accessible and searchable by anyone online at www.landdirect.ie. A considerable volume of information is available in that database. Search results give a description of the property, the date of registration, details of the owner and any burdens relating to the property, such as a mortgage or a right of way. Associated spatial data are also available. Under current land registration legislation and rules, however, the national land register does not record property prices. The property price register, maintained by the PSRA currently under the remit of the Department of Justice, holds information on residential properties by description only and includes the price and date of sale. There is no associated spatial aspect.
Furthermore, under Housing for All, the Government’s housing plan to 2030, the Department is committed to evidenced-based policy development and will continue to improve data availability and analysis. This includes working with the local government sector to ensure planning and housing data are captured in a nationally-consistent structure to enable monitoring of national housing development and construction.
The Department is currently working with Ordnance Survey Ireland to develop a national zoned housing land register based on local authority development plans, including the potential housing yield-capacity, which can also form the basis for the associated calculation of land use values required for the land value sharing measures also currently being developed under action 12.1 of the Housing for All policy. Provision is made in the Registration of Deeds and Titles Act 2006 for the maintenance of a register of deeds and the information to be contained within it.
I hope the Minister of State will depart a little from his script in his response to my second question, though I appreciate that he must give us the official position. There are two elements to my next query. First, he knows we use the report mechanism because we cannot table amendments because they would place a charge on the State. I hope he understands this aspect. What I am really asking, because the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, made it clear earlier that the Government is not going to insert provision for this register into this legislation, is whether the Government thinks that such a register would be a good thing. I think it is eminently sensible and would be a very valuable tool. Notwithstanding that the Minister of State is not minded to support its inclusion here, is its introduction something the Government would actively consider? I am asking this because all the other things mentioned by him which are all valid, do not do what such a register would do, which would be to give us real-time information on land transactions. This would be valuable because it would provide the State, as it becomes more involved in active land management, which is something we all want to see more of, with information regarding where the pressure points are, where speculative investment is being made and where we would like to see active land management interventions, either by the Land Development Agency or other bodies.
The fact that we do not have this information, even if we do have a land register, means we do not have a real-time land transactions register and that we are operating blind. I fully understand the position the Minister of State has outlined regarding the amendments, but I ask him to tell us if there is a discussion ongoing in the Department about this kind of initiative, if it is something the Department could consider and if the Department could discuss it with the Department of Justice, so long as the PSRA remains within the ambit of that Department? Without this, all the other things the Minister of State spoke about will not be as impactful as they would otherwise be if we had this kind of real-time information.
To follow up on the point made by Deputy Ó Broin about the land register, we had representatives from Dublin City Council and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council before the joint committee on Tuesday. Next week we will have representatives from Cork City Council and Galway local authorities. In the next few weeks, we also will have representatives from other local authorities. We are going to raise the issue of vacancy and dereliction. One of the points made in this regard is that solving the issue of dereliction and vacancy is complicated because there are problems with who wants the land and the land registry. The point Deputy Ó Broin is making is that if there was an up-to-date and accurate land register, then local authorities would be able to tackle the people who own these derelict sites, thereby helping to reduce the level of dereliction and vacancy. From that perspective, therefore, as Deputy Ó Broin said, does the Minister of State think this would be a good idea?
To speak honestly and frankly, this is not legislation I have worked on before. My job here is to try to put this legislation through for the merger, as opposed to expanding the functions in this regard now. I will, however, raise these issues with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. In principle, though, I do not see any objection to doing it because the more we have, the better. I will raise this suggestion with the Minister. My role now is to get the legislation through for the merger. This is not a Bill I have worked on before but I will raise these issues and suggestions with the Minister.
It would be good as well if the Minister of State could ask the Minister to correspond with the committee regarding taking on board the spirit of these two amendments and to let the committee know if this initiative is something the Minister would be willing to look at. I ask this because it would be enormously valuable. As will become clear when I speak to my next amendment, there is a reason this type of initiative should be in the Bill but we will deal with this when we deal with the next amendment. I am happy, therefore, to withdraw my amendment at this stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 2:
In page 8, between lines 20 and 21, to insert the following:
“(8) Within 6 months of the passing of this Act, the Minister shall lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report of a review into the digitization of the land registry including proposed reforms to expedite land disputes where the title deeds are currently unclear due to issues with historic or digitized records.”.
I know the Minister of State is again going to tell me that because it is not appropriate to put a request for a report into legislation he cannot support the amendment. I understand that. After he tells me that, I would be interested if he or his officials tell me if it would be possible for this new agency to undertake a review of the digitisation process. It is eminently sensible. I am not suggesting it should be done within any immediate timeframe. Given the complexity of the land register - and I deal with the office that administers it all the time and an exceptionally helpful and good service is provided - in many instances it can be 12 or more months out of date because of the slowness of the processes.
The real issue here relates to inaccuracies, anomalies or other ambiguities in the title deeds of properties, which can cause enormous difficulties. Somebody might want to do an extension on their home or get planning permission, or a public agency might want to do construction work on a public building project, and there is a dispute over title. I think it would be a good thing to do. Again, although I am not pressing the amendment, I want to use it as an opportunity to get the Minister of State or the officials to indicate if this is something that could be reviewed post the establishment of the new agency.
I want to give an example of the point Deputy Eoin Ó Broin is trying to make. Constituents in Cork North-Central went to buy their home from the local authority under tenant purchase but because there were problems with the land register and because the house was built on three different plots going back over 100 years, that family waited over 20 years before they could buy the home. They would have had the home paid for if they had got the mortgage on time. This shows the problems that arise . I was a city councillor for 11 years and I know the city council would try to take control of a small piece of land if it might hinder a development or construction that is needed. There is a process involved in that which can delay developments, whether it is for extensions, housing or business. The point was made that we are not looking for this to happen straight away but it is something which would benefit local authorities, the State and constituents.
As a constituency Deputy, I understand the intention behind the amendment is to simplify the land resolution process. The national land register is a legal register that operates under a non-conclusive boundary system and is subject to the rights of those in possession. Where anomalies appear, the Property Registration Authority, PRA, can update the map under set protocols and in the absence of dispute. There may be instances where a property was mapped many years ago, and the boundary on the ground now is not as it was at the time of registration. Boundaries can change over time for a variety of reasons and procedures exist to rectify boundaries on consent. Otherwise, disputes are a matter for resolution through the courts. There is no intention to change the statutory legislation grounding the functions of the Property Registration Authority, Ordnance Survey Ireland or the Valuation Office.
Tailte Éireann, when established, will be independent in the performance of its statutory functions, including the registration of title function. The PRA registers in accordance solely with the deeds, documents of title and maps lodged on application. Appeals arising from decisions made by it are a matter for court by way of appeal under section 19 of the Registration of Title Act 1964. This will not change when the legislative functions of the PRA pass to Tailte Éireann under the Act.
Notwithstanding the argument made by the Deputies, it would be a very significant and difficult piece of work across the country given the number of pieces of land involved. It is also an operational matter. I will raise it with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien.
I do not underestimate the scale of the work. To be clear, in the first instance, what the amendments are asking, and what I am asking the Minister of State to informally raise within the Department, is a review of the digitisation process. In the village in which I live, Clondalkin, there are large parts of the area where there are no title deeds at all and, for example, nobody owns the entire main street, most of the pathways and so on. We have dealt with a number of anomalies where title deeds did not exist or were disputed. In fact, when I went to my director of services for planning and development some years ago and asked them to do a review, they said it would take so much time and effort that they did not have the resources. I am not asking for a review of all title deeds and the historic development of those because that would be too onerous. However, a tight review of the digitisation process to examine even a small number of pilot areas or a small number of case studies to identify the extent to which that digitisation process was successful or not could be a helpful tool.
While I accept the argument around operational independence, I still think, because it is a State agency and under the remit of the Department, that some consideration of the proposal in front of the Minister of State would be merited. Again, as I said, it could be done as a pilot project involving a couple of counties or towns to review the effect of digitisation and how it worked out. I will not press the matter. I just wanted to raise it so the Minister of State could forward it internally in the Department.
If the Minister wanted, he could always start in Cork city. I will just put that out there.
I hope that is not where most of the problems are.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 3:
In page 8, between lines 20 and 21, to insert the following:
“(8) Within 6 months of the passing of this Act, the Minister, shall lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report setting out further consideration by his or her Department and the Department of Justice on the transfer of responsibility for the Property Services Regulatory Authority to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and its location within Tailte Éireann.”.
I know the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, is not accepting the amendment and that the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, outlined in some detail the reason why. However, as I have the opportunity, I want to make the case for the Department to reconsider this issue. The Property Services Regulatory Authority, as the Minister of State knows, is a very weak body and it has a very weak statutory underpinning and a voluntary code of conduct. The sectors under its aegis are very significant property service management companies, estate agents, auctioneers, valuers and so on. We all know of many stories where individuals who are looking to purchase or sell homes find navigating that process and dealing with the concerns they have about how the process operates very difficult.
There is a strong argument for either the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage or the Department of Justice to at some point revisit the legislative underpinnings of the Property Services Regulatory Authority. I know that is not for us today. The reason I tabled the amendment is because I have a strong view that so long as the Property Services Regulatory Authority sits within the Department of Justice, this will never happen and it will be very low down on its priorities given that, alongside the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, it is one of the busiest Departments in terms of legislation. This will never get on the radar of the Minister for Justice or the Secretary General or assistant secretary general in the Department of Justice. Therefore, I have made the case for a number of years that the Property Services Regulatory Authority should be under the aegis of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which makes much more sense. Its functions have to do with the regulation of bodies that value houses and buy and sell houses or land, and property services management companies. The logical place would be this Department.
I also think, and the pre-legislative scrutiny report of our committee recommended, that this agency would be a good place to have that. Yes, it would be a significant expansion of its remit but one that is warranted. I know the Minister of State is going to read out the statement and tell me why he is not accepting the amendment, which is perfectly fine, but I would have thought any reasonable person would have accepted the logic of at least active consideration of first transferring the Property Services Regulatory Authority into the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and then to consider whether it would sit within Tailte Éireann, where I think it would sit quite nicely, or somewhere else.
In the previous Dáil our committee wanted to have public hearings on the operations of the Property Services Regulatory Authority. Many of us represent constituents who live in apartments and there are ongoing issues about the operation and regulation of property service management agents. This committee cannot look at that issue because it does not fall within the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Despite the fact we asked the Committee on Justice to consider it and invite us along, it never fitted within its programme and it had other work to do.
I know the Minister of State is not accepting it and that he is going to tell me this is the wrong legislation and that it broadens the scope of the Act too much, and that is all fine. However, I ask that he would take it away and look at it and, again, maybe ask the Minister to come back to our committee to see if this is a conversation that can be had. Today, we have many reports of allegations - they are only allegations - of fake auctions when people are bidding for homes. Somebody puts down a deposit on a home and then they are told that somebody else is raising the price, and there is no visibility, accountability or transparency. We know people who have put down deposits on homes only for the seller to withdraw and for the property to be back on the market several months down the line when the property price has increased further. We get complaints about certain auctioneers and valuers who, again, are alleged to have questionable practices. All a person can do today, if they feel they are not being served properly by that system, is make a complaint to the Property Services Regulatory Authority, which, with its voluntary code of conduct, can write an angrily-worded letter to the agency involved, but the system does not improve. Other European jurisdictions have much more transparent and accountable systems for valuation, auctioneering and property transactions. The fact we have not done it in this Bill is a missed opportunity but, nonetheless, it is one the Department should still actively consider with its counterparts in the Department of Justice.
I note it was a cross-party recommendation from this committee in our urban regeneration report.
It is worthy of consideration, whether it fits within this Bill or not.
In fairness to the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, he thanked this committee for its efforts in producing our pre-legislative scrutiny report, even though the Government did not accept either of our two eminently sensible recommendations.
It was included as a recommendation in our urban regeneration report too.
This is beyond my role. The Taoiseach allocates functions to various Departments. The Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, outlined that and other issues on Second Stage. I will raise it with the Department and the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, because I can see the concerns. While it may not be the priority of the Committee on Justice in its legislative reform programme, I have significant experience from my past life of doing audits for estate agents and auctioneers when the Property Services Regulatory Authority came into being, as well as experience with its work and its robust nature. There was a journey to get letters of engagements and implementing new structures for estate agents and auctioneers to work under. There is a reporting regime. As the Deputies pointed out, there are challenges with the voluntary code. I will raise what has been said this morning with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I move amendment No. 4:
In page 8, between lines 20 and 21, to insert the following:
“(8) Within 6 months of the passing of this Act, the Minister shall lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report on the creation of a real-time land transaction register similar to the Residential Property Price Register.”.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 8 agreed to.
Amendment No. 5 not moved.
Sections 9 to 22, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 23
Question proposed: "That section 23 stand part of the Bill."
The Minister of State referred to section 23(7) earlier. The committee produced a report on urban regeneration. It had a number of recommendations about creating a single entity to gather data on vacancy and dereliction condition scoring on buildings. I am conscious that we cannot, at this stage, substantially expand the role Tailte Éireann would perform. Would that fall within this area so that it could be assigned to Tailte Éireann at some stage? It was apparent in all the sessions we had. We are all keen to address dereliction and vacancy for numerous positive reasons, but there is a lack of information. There are many data sources and much information comes in from various groups and entities, but we need somebody to pull it altogether. A geographical information system, GIS, mapping format would be easier to understand. Will the Minister of State consider that as something that we could look at for Tailte Éireann?
I am happy to do that.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 24 agreed to.
SECTION 25
Question proposed: "That section 25 stand part of the Bill."
I alert members that a technical amendment to the wording of section 25 may be tabled by the Government on Report Stage.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 26 to 39, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 40
Question proposed: "That section 40 stand part of the Bill."
Section 40 may need a technical amendment too.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 41 agreed to.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
SCHEDULE 2
Question proposed: "That Schedule 2 be a Schedule to the Bill."
We may table a technical amendment to Schedule 2.
Question put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.