Select Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Thursday, 8 Dec 2022

Local Government (Maternity Protection and Other Measures for Members of Local Authorities) Bill 2022: Committee Stage

Vice Chairman

I wish to convey the apologies of the Chairman as he, unfortunately, had to speak in the Dáil at the exact moment this meeting started. No other apologies have been received.

We are joined by the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, and his officials. This meeting has been convened to consider Committee Stage of the Local Government (Maternity Protection and Other Measures for Members of Local Authorities) Bill 2022, with which we will now proceed. The Minister of State will make some opening remarks.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Peter Burke)

We had Second Stage in the Dáil last week and on foot of that we forwarded a draft copy of the regulations to the Oireachtas Joint Committee as well for its deliberations. Next week, I hope to have Report Stage in the Dáil on Wednesday and then in the Seanad on Thursday to complete the Bill. I know that this is urgent legislation because I am aware that there are a few councillors who are expecting babies very shortly. It is important that we make a strong statement and have this protection for them so that they can avail of it. The Bill will help to make it easier for them to operate in the political world. There are a huge amount of further changes to be made. I wish to put on record that this is incremental change and we have a lot more to do in this space to improve politics for women and have diversity, which is very important.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Minister of State for his comments. I take his lead that we will be judged by our actions not our words and thank him for his brevity.

Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank all of the political parties and councillors for their huge positive engagement throughout this process. They have all added their own value to the proposals that are in front us. I wish to acknowledge the cross-party support for this Bill.

Vice Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister of State's officials because a huge amount of work has gone into the legislation.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

I commend the Minister of State and his team on the work that they have put into this legislation. He has previously done work on this, particularly after the Moorhead report and this Bill is another phase. I welcome that he has acknowledged that more work needs to be done. Well done to the team. I look forward to working constructively with the Minister of State on the other issues, which I hope we can resolve.

Regulation No. 7 concerns the calculation of 235 administrative supports. Can the Minister of State explain to me the thinking behind that? Am I correct to say that the role was based on secretarial assistance and one third will be paid by the State? Why was a decision made to provide one third considering that there are 20 hours of work? Am I right that it is 20 hours of work?

Deputy Peter Burke

It is 13 hours.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Yes.

Deputy Peter Burke

It is in line with the commitment in the Moorhead report. A survey was conducted by, I think, the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, on the average working week of a councillor and it was taken pro rata to that of the support provided to an Oireachtas Member.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Is it only 13 hours.

Deputy Peter Burke

Yes.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

That is perfect. When I looked at the legislation I wondered why the allocation was only one third if 20 hours are worked. It is 13 hours. Is there any leeway for overtime? Is the limit set at 13 hours?

Deputy Peter Burke

I think it is only set at 13 hours. It is an allowance as opposed to a formal employee arrangement where there would be overtime. We have a mechanism to review these proposals. If it is a case that there are limitations or the scheme does not work into the future then we can review and obviously make changes, if needed.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

That delivers on what the Minister of State gave a commitment to do whereby he would get the provision as close as possible to the living wage and I thank him for that.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Minister of State, his team, everybody involved in the sub-committee and all the councillors who worked with him on this Bill. I also thank the AILG and the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA. The Bill is progressive and will be really good for democracy. It will be particularly good for women in politics and will attract more women into politics.

I wish to raise an issue that I have raised here and in the Dáil Chamber. I ask the Minister of State to continue to engage with political parties. I think it would be a real shame if a woman who goes on maternity leave is co-opted by somebody her party chooses rather than one she chooses because, as I have emphasised before, the selection of a direct competitor would not make for a stress-free maternity leave.

Finally, I wish to ask a technical question on foot of an email former Deputy, now councillor, Joanna Tuffy sent to all Oireachtas Members. She is slightly concerned about the temporary substitute and a county councillor on leave because there could be almost like a dual mandate where two people fulfil the one role. From a technical perspective, what is the councillor referred to when the person is on leave and what is the substitute referred to? Are there technically two councillors for that period? If so, how is the matter dealt with?

Deputy Peter Burke

In the first instance, that is what we put into the legislation so specifically they would have regard to the individual woman's choice who is leaving and I think that is a strong statement.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Fantastic.

Deputy Peter Burke

I have good faith in local authorities and the political party system. It would be shocking if someone denied a woman her choice as she went on maternity leave. I think if that happened then the system would reflect very poorly on them. We have also reserved the right to issue directions and standing orders under section 28, I think, and schedule 10. We would be able to do that if it transpires, which I hope it will not, and I do not believe it will.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Yes.

Deputy Peter Burke

On Councillor Tuffy's issues, we have prepared a paper on each of the points that she had raised, which we can circulate to the committee.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Yes.

Deputy Peter Burke

On the other question, the woman would still be a councillor but on maternity leave. The temporary substitute becomes a member of council for the defined period of up to 42 weeks.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I appreciate the clarification and I thank the Minister of State's team for all of the work they have done to create this positive and progressive legislation. Well done.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Does an Independent councillor who is out on leave have the right to nominate a person to replace him or her? I ask as I am a former county councillor for Limerick and I was first elected as a Fianna Fáil councillor and the second time as an Independent. The council at the time told me it would object to me giving my seat to someone else after I was elected a Member of the Oireachtas but agreed afterwards it would not. Independents should be treated the exact same as a member of a political party because an Independent councillor is elected by the people and, therefore, should be entitled to give his or her nominated person a seat if he or she becomes a member of the Dáil or is on a leave of absence.

If one is first elected when a member of a political party but halfway through the term leaves the party and becomes an Independent does responsibility lie with the party to nominate a replacement? I believe that when one is elected as an Independent, one should have the right to nominate someone.

Vice Chairman

Is the Deputy referring to co-option?

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Co-option or absence.

Vice Chairman

With the Bill before us then the question is whether the party or the councillor nominates the replacement person for the duration of the maternity leave.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Yes. Also if the councillor is a single Independent then he or she should be recognised as a party because that person has been elected with a mandate. An Independent councillor should be deemed the same as a party and thus be able to nominate somebody.

Deputy Peter Burke

We are not changing the rules for a temporary vacancy. It is still the exact same way a casual vacancy is filled in a local authority now. The only thing that we have added, which is an important clause for women, is section 2(b)(3)(b)(ii) which reads: "The local authority shall have regard to the preferred choice (if any) of the member causing the temporary absence as to the person who should be the temporary substitute."

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Is that provision for women?

Deputy Peter Burke

Yes, and for men if they are on sick leave.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Yes, or if men are on paternity leave.

Deputy Peter Burke

Yes, whichever.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

The same provision should apply to males and females.

Deputy Peter Burke

The provision covers maternity and sick leave. As I said earlier, we will make incremental changes. We must give consideration to a host of others areas and find ways to cover them in primary legislation to give enhanced rights to local authority members. We are on a journey and this Bill is the second part of that journey post Moorhead.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

That is fine.

Vice Chairman

We look forward to having the Minister of State back to continue that journey.