Skip to main content
Normal View

SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY debate -
Tuesday, 12 Jul 2011

Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates for the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Defence. I propose that the committee consider first the Justice group of Votes and then suspend for approximately 15 minutes before considering the Defence group of Votes. Is that agreed? Agreed. I will have to excuse myself shortly as there is a clash of appointments. I will ask the Vice Chairman to take the Chair during that period.

The Dáil ordered that the following Revised Estimates for public services be referred to the committee for consideration: Vote 19 - Department of Justice and Equality, Vote 20 - Garda Síochána, Vote 21 - Prisons, Vote 22 - Courts Service, and Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority. I thank the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, together with his officials, for attending and assisting the committee in its consideration of the Revised Estimates.

I welcome the opportunity to meet the select committee as it considers the 2011 Revised Estimates for my Department. As members will be aware, the Government has inherited a very difficult economic situation. Like other incoming Ministers across all Departments, my legacy from the previous Administration is a level of resources that makes it very challenging to deliver core services across the justice sector, the fourth largest Vote group in the public sector in terms of resource provision behind the Departments of Social Protection, Health and Education and Skills. The Vote group comprises a large and significant range of subheads. There are approximately 60 subheads within my Department's Vote and separate Votes for An Garda Síochána, the prisons, the courts and the Property Registration Authority. In all, the gross financial allocation available to the Vote group in 2011 is €2.431 billion which is made up of current expenditure of €2.351 billion and capital expenditure of €80 million. When adjustments are made for recently transferred functions and once-off expenditure items, the current expenditure allocation is in the region of €80 million less than the corresponding allocation in 2010. As far as capital is concerned, after adjusting for a once-off item, this allocation is in excess of €20 million, that is, 20%, less than the 2010 allocation. That being said, it is incumbent on us all to manage with fewer resources and come up with new and smarter ways of doing business.

In terms of resource provision, the Garda Vote is by far the largest in the justice group, accounting for 63% of the overall gross budget for the group. In all, 90% of the Garda budget is made up of pay and pensions costs. Currently, there are 14,262 serving members and nearly 2,100 civilian staff. In addition, there are 761 attested Garda Reserve members, with a further 181 at various stages of training. The committee will be aware that currently there are no Garda recruits in training. This is consistent with the objective of the previous Government to reduce the size of the force to 13,500 members by the end of this year and 13,000 by the end of 2014. As I have indicated recently, this is a matter I will keep under close review, but the reality is that the financial circumstances in which we find ourselves do not allow for further recruitment at this point. It is important to keep this in perspective: the strength of the force exceeded 13,000 members for the first time during 2007 and, even at that stage, the number of civilians working in the force was far less than the current level. The clear message is that, while it is likely there will be a further reduction in the strength of the force in the next year or so, there are significant numbers of gardaí and other personnel available to support the Commissioner in carrying out the important work of An Garda Síochána.

Under the public service agreement 2010-14, otherwise known as the Croke Park agreement, there are significant proposals being developed around rostering arrangements which will more closely match the availability of staff with policing demands. Other objectives under the agreement include having Garda compensation claims dealt with by the State Claims Agency, in respect of which legislation is well advanced, co-operation with enhancements to Garda training, the implementation of agreed reporting arrangements involving Garda members and civilian support staff, and identifying the maximum scope for civilianisation of posts in the force which could be filled through redeployment and co-operation with a new agreed ICT strategy.

On paper, the 2011 budget represents a small increase on 2010 Garda expenditure but only because it includes an additional superannuation allocation of €80 million compared to the 2010 outturn to cover the retirements envisaged in 2011 to reduce the number of Garda members. If this figure of €80 million is excluded, the budget represents a reduction of 5% when compared to the 2010 outturn. This masks more significant reductions in several areas, for example, the Garda overtime budget for 2011 has been reduced from in excess of €78 million to €62.2 million. Shortfalls in several other subheads are presenting major challenges in 2011. For example, the Garda transport subhead figure has been reduced from almost €28 million to €14.5 million, a 48% reduction. It is inevitable, despite the savings made on the officeholder fleet implemented by the Government shortly after taking office, that it will be difficult to resource this subhead.

On a more positive front, An Garda Síochána is taking a proactive approach to introduce the necessary changes and is continuing to maximise the use of the resources available to it. The national digital radio system has been rolled out throughout the country and provides members with leading edge communications equipment to carry out their functions. The provision for the ongoing cost of this equipment is included in subhead A4, Postal and Telecommunications Services. In a further development, the operation of safety cameras has been outsourced to a private sector operator with an estimated saving of 16,000 man hours when the cameras are operating at full capacity.

In discussing the Garda Estimate for 2011 it would be remiss of me not to mention the massive Garda effort involved in the recent State visits. The vast scale of the security operation put in place by An Garda Síochána to protect the security of Queen Elizabeth II and President Obama was commensurate with the real security threats involved and the risk of great reputational damage to the country in the event of anything going wrong. The cost of the operation was significant and I am informed that the final figure is likely to be in the region of €36 million. It is important, however, that the cost is balanced against the substantial, long-term benefits to the country in terms of favourable press coverage and free advertising, in particular through the international televised media. Moreover, when considering the overtime and other payroll costs involved, it is important to remember that a significant proportion of these will be returned to the Exchequer through taxation and levies. The Estimates were framed before the full impact of the visits and the associated security costs were known and, as a result, could not and do not include provision for these costs. This is clearly a matter that must be discussed further by the Government as expenditure in all Vote groups becomes clearer in the coming months.

The net Estimate available to the Department of Justice and Equality Vote in 2011 is almost €355.2 million. This is made up of gross current expenditure of €397.7 million, a capital budget of €4.6 million and a receipts target allocation of €47 million. In all, there are 60 subheads in the Vote, covering a range of administrative areas of the Department, as well as commissions, legal aid, immigration and asylum, probation and youth justice services, equality, integration and disability, charities and other services ranging from the Garda Complaints Board to Cosc, the executive office of the Department which is leading the way in raising awareness and the co-ordination of measures to address issues in the area of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence.

Several offices and bodies have come back under the responsibility of my Department following the recent reorganisation of Departments to match the needs of the economy and society. The organisations in question are in the human rights, equality, disability and integration areas and were transferred to the former Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs during 2010. Various functions in the charities area have also come within the remit of my Department, including the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests which had a separate Vote previously. Responsibility for charities regulation is now within the remit of my Department. Responsibility for the disbursement of funding to promoters of certain charitable lotteries is now also within the Department of Justice and Equality Vote, having previously been funded through the Department of Finance.

To support the Garda in the fight against organised and other serious crime I am keen to retain, as far as is possible, current funding levels to offices such as the Criminal Assets Bureau, the State Pathologist's Office and the Forensic Science Laboratory. These organisations provide crucial services in criminal investigations. The success of the Criminal Assets Bureau is well documented and through its activities paid more than €7 million from the proceeds of crime into the Central Exchequer Fund in 2010.

While there is capital funding available in the current year for the development of the new facility in Marino for the State Pathologist's Office in a joint venture arrangement with Dublin City Council, there has been a delay in the project because the original contractor went into receivership in 2010. It is necessary to re-tender for the project and this will be completed as soon as the capital funding provision for future years becomes clearer. Similarly, the Office of Public Works has advised that the building of a much needed new facility by it for the Forensic Science Laboratory is also subject to the outcome of the capital review of expenditure 2012 to 2016 under way throughout Departments. I expect the position of these two projects to be somewhat clearer when the review is completed.

There are serious challenges facing other areas of the Vote. I refer, in particular, to the immigration service. This year's budget in subhead D1, Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, INIS, is 18% less than in 2010. I have been working closely with the INIS since coming into office and significant progress continues to be made in several areas. I am particularly pleased that the waiting list for citizenship applications is being tackled in a systematic way with immediate results. Under the new system, save in exceptional circumstances, persons applying for citizenship will be given a decision on their application within six months. This is the target in dealing with citizenship applications. I hope that by the time we deal with the Estimates next year this target will be achieved.

I have long held the view that the formal granting of Irish citizenship should be recognised as a major and important event. The recent citizenship ceremony held in Dublin Castle was an appropriate way to mark the significance of the occasion. Further citizenship ceremonies to facilitate the formal granting of citizenship to a considerable number of people will be taking place on three days during the last week in July. We are considering arranging ceremonies outside Dublin also. It is intended to hold a ceremony either in August or September in Templemore. We are considering holding ceremonies in Cork and elsewhere in order that they will not be solely Dublin-focused and that those who seek citizenship and are resident in other parts of the country will not for the purposes of participating in a ceremony be required on all occasions to come to Dublin.

I am especially pleased that my Department has been able to contribute in a positive way to the Government's jobs initiative through the innovative visa waiver scheme for certain categories of visitor to Ireland. The scheme is designed to assist in the promotion of Ireland as a quality tourist destination for markets which hitherto were not regarded as traditional source countries for tourism to Ireland. It will have real and tangible benefits for the nationals of the 14 or so countries participating in the scheme who currently require a visa to come here and it will provide a much needed shot in the arm for the hard pressed tourism industry which accounts for significant employment in the State. Last year approximately 30,000 people from the participating countries were issued visas to come here. These visitors helped to provide and maintain jobs in the economy. With this measure, we anticipate that we can grow this market and thereby generate more jobs. I have received good feedback from the ambassadors of some of the countries to which the scheme applies. They predict it will substantially increase the number of visits to this country in the coming 12 months.

A gross allocation of €347.6 million is provided in 2011 for the prisons Vote, excluding a carryover of €2 million of unspent capital from 2010. Taking the €2 million carryover into account, the total capital budget available in the Vote is €36.4 million in the current year, a significant part of which will be spent on the construction of a new accommodation block at the Midlands Prison and the provision of further spaces for female prisoners at the Dóchas Centre in the Mountjoy Prison complex. I have recently received the report from the committee established to review the Thornton Hall prison project. I am in the process of reviewing the report, which has yet to be furnished to the Cabinet. This report will inform further developments regarding the development of prison spaces. After the report has been furnished to the Cabinet, it will be published and made available to members.

One area I am particularly anxious to see addressed as soon as possible is the unacceptable practice of prisoners slopping out. This is an inhumane practice for both prisoners and those working in the prisons. At present, 72% of prison accommodation has in-cell sanitation. Needless to say, all new prisons spaces coming on-stream have this facility and the position also will be significantly improved once two in-cell sanitation projects currently under way in the C-wing in Mountjoy Prison are completed later this year. The challenge of eliminating the practice of slopping out in some of the remaining outdated accommodation, mainly at Mountjoy and Cork prisons, is not to be under estimated and is an issue I will continue to address with the director of the Prison Service.

The budgetary estimate for the Prison Service has to be considered in the context of the increase in prisoner numbers in recent years. The number of prisoners in the system between 2008 and 2011 has increased by 25% from 3,556 to 4,450, which illustrates the pressure the budget is under. The numbers on temporary release also have increased over this period from an average of 208 in 2008 to 885 in the current year. In the context of the increased demand on the service, it is essential that the Prison Service continues to make progress with regard to the transformation programme. The first tangible evidence of this has been that the new accommodation block for 200 prisoners, which was opened at Wheatfield Prison in October 2010, is being staffed on a more efficient staffing model based on the principles set out in the Public Service Agreement 2010-2014.

The programme for Government sets out clearly the Government's objective in respect of sentencing policy and penal reform. I am fully committed to implementing the Fines Act 2010 and extending the use of community service orders. These measures, where appropriate, are less costly and will reduce the prison population, thus alleviating overcrowding in the process. Similar to other areas in the justice sector, the financial realities of the day are keenly felt in the Prison Service. It is not an option for the service to put up a "no vacancy" sign on a prison gate as it clearly must accept the prisoners referred to it by the courts. However, through a combination of smarter work practices under the transformation programme and a committed approach to utilising other options to imprisonment for certain categories of offence, my objective is to reduce some of the pressures on the system before too long.

As for the courts Vote, the gross allocation for the Courts Service of €112.1 million is 25% lower than the expenditure for 2010. Part of the reduction of more than €36 million in monetary terms is accounted for by a once-off VAT payment of €17 million in 2010 pertaining to the new Criminal Courts of Justice, CCJ, complex, which was delivered by way of a public private partnership, PPP. Similar to 2010, the current year budget includes an annual annuity repayment of €21.163 million in respect of this building. In common with other areas in the justice sector, the demand on the services of the courts is also on the increase against a background of declining budgets. Like the other areas, the Courts Service is proactive in managing its operations and the resources available. The measures being taken include a major restructuring programme, incorporating the rationalisation and closure of venues, increased use of information technology to eliminate manual work practices and strong contract management to achieve better value in the day-to-day running of the courts in areas such as interpretation, legal and ICT services.

On Vote 23 for the Property Registration Authority, PRA, the net Estimate is €35.172 million. The bulk of the provision relates to salaries, which account for €27.138 million or 77% of the total net allocation. The other main area of expenditure relates to the maintenance of information technology and the development of new systems on which the PRA is heavily dependent for improved efficiency and quality customer service. A provision of €2.588 million is made in subhead A3 for payments to Ordnance Survey Ireland, the State-licensed mapping agency, for the supply and usage of mapping data.

In 2010, the Property Registration Authority returned €30.5 million in fees to the Exchequer. Fee intake depends on the volume of applications lodged which, in turn, depends on the activity levels in the property market. In 2010, 87% of the net voted expenditure of €35 million was offset by fees returned to the Exchequer. The impact of the investment in technology undertaken in recent years has been highly significant and the PRA has now reached a point whereby all its textual records and mapping records have been fully digitised. The digital mapping project was fully completed ahead of time and within budget in mid-2010. In addition to the output of cases and the provision of searching and certification services, the PRA provide a range of additional services to State and semi-State organisations.

The justice sector, in common with other Vote groups, has suffered a reduction in the resources available to it and I have inherited as I noted at the outset a difficult budgetary situation. The sector must do all it can to maintain service levels in respect of its many core functions on the criminal justice side of operations in particular. The challenge for me and management and staff at all levels across the sector is to be innovative and resourceful in the way business is carried out. The justice sector is fully committed to the transformation agenda and I will continue to use the legislative programme, where appropriate, to create a better framework in the fight against crime and arrive at smarter and better ways of doing things across the sector. The comprehensive review of expenditure, which was recently carried out across the sector and is under consideration at present, has given much food for thought. While some of the proposals need further consideration and evaluation, there is scope for increased co-ordination and interaction between all the areas involved in the criminal justice sector. This increased co-ordination will assist in reducing inefficiencies in the system and ensuring the best use is made of all available resources. There are other issues relating to the justice area on which I could have addressed members. I have no doubt but that they will raise them in response to my remarks. I am happy to address any questions members may raise and to deal with any points that arise with specific regard to the Estimates before the committee.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy took the Chair.

I invite Deputy Calleary to ask questions of the Minister.

I thank the Vice Chairman. Should members go through the Estimate heading by heading? I seek guidance from the Vice Chairman.

It should be short and snappy.

Like the Deputy.

There should be no talks about talks and members should get on with it.

If the Deputy wishes, he can proceed heading by heading.

I welcome the Minister and his officials and note his remarks. As a general point, I am slightly concerned by a jump in expenditure. During Question Time some weeks ago, it was stated that the figure for the Garda Estimate pertaining to the visits of the Queen and President Obama was approximately €21 million, which now has jumped to €36 million. At that time, the Minister was relatively confident there would be no need for an additional Estimate. I take it from the Minister's remarks this time that he now is less confident and that an additional Estimate will be introduced. As he has noted, the budgets already are under enough pressure without being obliged to find that amount of money from services.

I have a couple of specific points. In respect of subhead E.3 on the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, I wish to endorse the Minister's remarks on the bureau. As the CAB has been in operation for almost 15 years, does the Minister plan to review it in light of international developments in that field? I ask on foot of technological developments and because the law in this area has been strengthened considerably and continues to be strengthened. Given that debate on the Criminal Justice Bill will be finalised this week, perhaps the CAB might be given some powers in respect of white-collar crime.

I note there has been a considerable increase in the non-pay allocation to the Garda Inspectorate under subhead E15. Can the Minister provide a breakdown with regard to that increase in expenditure? On the Garda Vote, I refer to subhead A3. The expenses in connection with Road Traffic Acts are falling from a provisional outturn figure of €6.5 million in 2010 to slightly more than €1 million in 2011. Is this related to the new privately-contracted vans or does this reflect a considerable reduction in Garda expenditure on road safety? Is this a good thing at present? On subhead A3 for staff training and development I have noticed a big increase in the Estimate from €1.4 million outturn in 2010 to €5.7 million in 2011. I ask the Minister to provide a breakdown of this increase and of the expenses of persons detained which is €6.3 million in 2010 and €8.2 million in 2011. I note an allocation of just over €1 million for the joint policing committees. I welcome the joint policing committees. Is this expenditure related to Garda attendance or Garda co-operation with the joint policing committees?

I refer to subhead E of Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - which deals with Garda communications. I note an allocation of €2.3 million for urban CCTV systems which is a small decrease on last year. Is this an expense for existing systems or has the Minister plans to provide a new community-based application this year? The Minister will be aware from his own area that there is considerable demand for a community-based system. The Garda Síochána is responsible for the collection of fines. Is this allocated under the Garda Vote or under another Vote such as the Courts Service Vote? The outturn for 2010 for firearms fees was €14.1 million and the outturn for 2011 is €1 million. I ask the Minister to explain the decrease.

I refer to the Minister's remarks on the transport fleet-----

What was the Deputy's question about firearms?

I asked why there has been such a decrease from €14 million down to €1 million in anticipated revenue. I refer to the Garda transport fleet and the savings to Vote 19, the Department's Vote as a result of changes introduced by the Minister when he came into office. How much of those savings will be picked up by other Departments by the employment of civilian drivers and the increase in travel expenses? Has that Garda Vote been distributed across those Departments? Does the extra allocation required for civilian drivers and associated expenses come from existing departmental resources for each Department or does the Minister still control that funding?

On Vote 21, Prisons Vote, I note the Minister's remarks regarding Thornton Hall. Is expenditure anticipated on Thornton Hall this year? I refer to subhead C. The Minister stated that approximately 4,450 prisoners are currently in the system. Is the Estimate for 2011 based on a particular figure and if so, has the figure of 4,450 exceeded that figure?

On Vote 22 , Courts Service, subhead A3 refers to stenography and other fees being allocated €4.5 million. This is quite a significant figure in the context of the overall budget. The Minister referred in his statement to getting better value for money. Has he specific proposals and will he provide a breakdown of that fee? On subhead A6, the Minister referred in his speech to the Courts Service-----

I ask the Deputy to go marginally slower through the document.

I apologise. The Minister needs a stenographer.

Yes, otherwise I will need a stenographer.

Would the Minister prefer to deal with the items individually?

We will revert to them. I am making a note of the Deputy's questions. I have the query about the stenographers but the Deputy was asking another question before I had an opportunity to finish writing my note.

I refer to Vote 22, the Courts Service Vote, subhead A6. The Minister referred in his speech to a major restructuring programme incorporating the rationalisation and closure of venues. I ask the Minister to outline the location of those venues. Has he had any discussions with the Courts Service on the implementation plan regarding those venues? Subhead C in the Courts Service Vote deals with fees. The Minister anticipates that fees this year will account for €47.4 million. What controls are in place with regard to the collection and management of this money given it is such a large section of the budget?

I may need about two hours to reply. I will deal with some of the questions and I may need to consult my papers to deal with others. I will deal first with the Garda matter. The figure recently furnished by the Garda Commissioner for the expense relating to the visits of President Obama and Queen Elizabeth is in the region of €36 million. It is a higher figure than may have been anticipated. These figures are obviously carefully prepared by the Garda Commissioner and my Department is engaged with him regarding any clarifications required. As the Deputy correctly says, the cost of the security operation required for the two visits was not factored into the Estimates as it was not anticipated by the previous Government. These are figures which will have to be addressed by the Government. I expect to formally bring the figures to Cabinet in the not too distant future or at least bring them to the Minister for Finance initially. Decisions will have to be made on those figures. The Government agreed that the additional cost arising from the visits should not impact upon the annual sum provided to An Garda Síochána for this year to cover various expenditures. It is important that this is seen as a separate sum and the funding of same will need to be identified.

The Garda Síochána is in something of a difficulty this year. I referred to the appropriations fund provided and €80 million will be needed for anticipated retirements from the force. The previous Government prescribed a reduction in Garda numbers between December 2010 to the end of December 2011, from 14,500 to 13,500. It provided a wage allocation based on some assumption that at some stage - I am not quite clear at what stage - the Garda Síochána would find itself down to 13,500 in 2010. The reality is that there was no mechanism in place for that number of retirements. The annual average number of retirements from the force when members had fulfilled their 30 or more years service is between 350 to 500. I do not know how my predecessor could have anticipated when doing the deal with the IMF and the EU that an extra 500 to 400 gardaí would automatically and magically retire during the course of this year. The Garda budget for 2011, as originally provided by the outgoing Government, was inadequate and we must now deal with that issue. This is a source of discussion between the Department and the Garda Commissioner as to how to stay within budget and address these issues. This is an additional expense which will need to be addressed by the Government. The Taoiseach gave a commitment that additional expense arising from the visits would be addressed, having regard to the importance of maintaining security for the visits and the very real benefits to this State in the medium and long term. I am unable to enlighten the Deputy further, other than to say that the money will come from a separate fund.

The Deputy's second question was about CAB, the Criminal Assets Bureau. We are reviewing the existing legislation and I anticipate we may bring forward legislation to increase the powers of CAB and to provide additional opportunities for CAB to perform its function. The Criminal Assets Bureau has been a very successful agency and it is very well managed. It has made it clear to those engaged in criminality that there is an ultimate day of reckoning and individuals will not be allowed to retain their ill-gotten gains. If CAB's remit can be extended into other areas, it will be. It has been there for some time albeit with some amendments made to it, and it is right that we review it. That review is being undertaken by the Department at the moment.

One of the issues that arises with CAB is that those engaged in criminality in this jurisdiction use resources they have earned through criminality to acquire assets outside the jurisdiction. I have already had a preliminary discussion at European Union level with the relevant European Commissioner and with some of my ministerial colleagues from other states with a view to providing a European framework for criminal asset bureaux. My Department is undertaking work to progress the matter at European level. Ultimately, I envisage having either an EU framework document or some form of directive or regulation that would provide the architecture allowing for connectivity and interaction between criminal asset bureaux in different states and their assisting each other in the recovery of assets where there are assets in one state which have been accumulated as a consequence of criminality in another state.

This is an area that could be well developed and I have encouraged some of my European colleagues, where they do not have the equivalent of our Criminal Assets Bureau, to visit us here. I have said we will provide any assistance we can in the development of their legislation. Already one Minister anticipates visiting Ireland to meet the head of CAB and getting his officials to work with Department of Justice and Equality officials with a view to developing legislation. This is an area in which considerable work can be done on a co-ordinated basis at a European Union level.

The Deputy asked about the expenses of persons detained under the A3.5 subhead which contains a range of miscellaneous issues. One is interpretation and translation, which I believe was mentioned. The Garda Síochána provides interpretation facilities to detained persons and often requires documents received from other police forces to be translated. Following a procurement exercise in 2008, framework agreements with provision of translation and interpretation services to the Garda Síochána were put in place in each Garda region to replace previous ad hoc arrangements which were proving excessively costly. The contracts are structured so that there is adequate cover for the range of languages required throughout the county.

A major issue faced by the Garda when it carried out this procurement exercise was the lack of a national governing body covering the particular industry and a lack of suitable accreditation based on recognised national and international educational standards. The Garda structured its tender requirements and framework agreements to ensure that individuals carrying out this work would be properly qualified according to international standards wherever possible. In some cases given the comparative rarity of the language or lack of educational qualification standards in the region of origin, it is simply not possible to demand a particular level of qualification. In addition, the company that provides most of its face-to-face translation services has a system in place in conjunction with the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland and the National Academic Recognition and Information Centre to verify qualifications. Expenses for detained persons also arise with regard to medical services for those who are detained, and that is part of the relevant subhead.

The Deputy also asked about changes to the budgetary position for the Garda Inspectorate. The non-pay budget for 2011 is the same as it was for 2010 and the plan for the Garda Inspectorate is to manage with a reduced budget in-----

Under subhead E15, the non-pay budget outturn for the end of 2010 is €415,000 and the Estimate for 2011 is €908,000.

There was a reduced expenditure for this year on the basis of applying efficiencies, but it is still fully operational which is where the savings were made.

I see an increase in the non-pay area from €415,000 at the end of 2010 to €908,000 for 2011, which is more than double.

One is expenditure and the other is budget, I am advised. The budget last year was the same as this year but it spent less.

How about road safety?

Apparently the reduction relates to the cost of doctors in respect of people detained under the Road Traffic Acts. I presume that is in the context of people who in the past may not have co-operated with the breathalyser and where we had to bring doctors in.

It is a lot of doctors for €5 million.

I am advised that in addition to doctors it relates to the cost of towing and storing cars, which apparently is a considerable area of expenditure. It is one of the areas we will review, because the expenditure seems to be particularly high in that area.

We could get the doctor to tow the car.

It could be. We had better ensure the doctor is not run over by the car or we might have a multiple issue. The reduction in fees regarding firearms - not that we should be encouraging even more firearms - is because there is a cyclical renewal. These are not annual payments. One year, in a sense, was a good year financially in the number of licences being renewed and then we go into the cycle and it does not arise the following year.

The Deputy also asked about the savings from the Garda fleet. I do not have the final figures because, obviously, the arrangements were only put in place in recent months. I know the number of gardaí within the Garda fleet has been reduced. While I do not have the figures before me, my recollection is that there were approximately 56 drivers in the Garda fleet and there are now slightly in excess of 20. A number are maintained for foreign visitors and people on leave and holidays. I do not know how great the end of year savings will be, but the savings are in the Garda Síochána Vote. The Garda Síochána Vote will not be funding the individual drivers Ministers are entitled to recruit, which will be dealt with through their individual Departments.

Does this mean the net savings to the taxpayer will be considerably less than that recorded?

There will obviously be savings through the Garda Síochána Vote. When we did the sums on this two or three months ago, my recollection is that by implementing the arrangement, there will be net savings to the State because the payment of a civilian driver does not involve the overtime dimensions involved with the gardaí and does not involve a trained member of the Garda. In the context of the Garda Síochána Vote, the saving will be clear and then, of course, there is the expense that will be incurred for the individual drivers. However, I do not have exact figures. We will get an annualised view of this by the start of the second quarter of next year after we have had a full 12 months or so of this being implemented.

I wish to advise that a vote is taking place in the Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform.

We will keep going until people return.

A question was raised about the joint policing committees, which are provided for in the Garda Síochána Act 2005. As the Deputy knows, their purpose is to provide a forum where the Garda Síochána and the local authority can come together. The expense of the committees, a sum of €1 million, relates to the ongoing cost of gardaí attending committees across the country.

There was no allocation at the end of 2010. Is this a new allocation for 2011 or is it money that might not be spent?

Prior to these Estimates, the cost was absorbed within the Garda Vote and was not identified. I was a member of one such committee. It took a while for some local authorities to start these committees. It reached the point where my predecessor, Mr. Dermot Ahern, took the view that a readily identifiable sum should be applied. As to whether the full €1 million will be spent, the final outturn will be interesting.

As to Thornton Hall, the report has finally been furnished to me. The work was completed and I received the report over the weekend. I have had an opportunity to read it and it will be brought to Cabinet on Tuesday week. I cannot bring it to Cabinet next Tuesday because I will be in Poland at a meeting of the Justice and Home Affairs Council. Once the report has gone to Cabinet, it will be published. Certain Cabinet decisions may need to be made arising from the report. I expect it will be presented to the committee for members' consideration.

Regarding the question on further expenditure on Thornton Hall, as the Deputy knows, road works are under way. I read in a newspaper about a dispute between a subcontractor and the main contractor. I presume the dispute will be resolved. On the basis that the road will be completed, that expenditure will be met. The issue of whether the construction of the wall around the lands for Thornton Hall will proceed will be a decision for Cabinet on Tuesday week based on the recommendations in the report, which I look forward to publishing. If there was not a Council meeting next Tuesday that I needed to attend, the report would be brought before Cabinet then, but it is particularly important that the Minister attend these meetings and engage with European colleagues. Informally at the meeting, I expect to have further discussions on the CAB issue I raised.

We will deal with the courts issue, followed by the prisons. In the context of fees received, there is a dedicated accounting system, the courts accounting system, CAS, which is used to ensure that all fees are properly collected. There has never been any suggestion that they are not properly dealt with and I am sure the Deputy is not suggesting otherwise.

Absolutely not. Given the amount of money involved, it is appropriate that-----

Under various Administrations, these matters have been handled with a great deal of care. I am not aware of there ever being any difficulty.

Does this include the amount collected in fines?

No, the fines are separate. As I understand it, there are two tracks - court fees for court documentation and the sums acquired and obtained through the payment of fines. Obviously, the collected moneys go directly to the Exchequer.

I do not see where the collection of fines is mentioned. I only see court fees of €47.4 million under appropriations-in-aid.

The fines are not reflected in the Vote. The court fees come through the Courts Service part of the Department of Justice and Equality and then go to the Department of Finance. The fines go directly to the latter Department and are not diverted through my Department. Apparently, this procedure has been in place for some time. What questions have I missed?

The Courts Service, closures, restructuring, and so on.

Throughout the country, there are courts in a variety of conditions and with a variety of levels of business. The Courts Service is conducting a review of court facilities as part of the overall financial review that Departments must conduct to consider more efficient ways to do our business and meet our public obligations. Currently, I am unaware of any court that will cease to be used, but it may well emerge out of that review that there will be some court closures. Some courts are in a poor condition and it may not make sense to spend funds - indeed, there may not be funds available to spend - on their maintenance. There may be courts within reasonable distances that can facilitate the business being dealt with in courts that have limited business. This matter is under review within the Courts Service. Having conducted the review, I expect the service will report its conclusions to my Department.

This is part of an approach taken by previous Governments to ensure we utilise our public funds in an efficient way and hold court hearings in appropriate locations. However, we are now in unprecedented financial waters and we must take account of the realities. My Department and I are conscious of the stringencies under which we will operate in the new year when, based on the EU-IMF agreement, there is supposed to be a further substantial reduction in public expenditure. We are examining different ways of operating more efficiently and saving funds while ensuring that the Department meets all of the legal obligations under its remit.

I welcome the Minister. I have a couple of short questions on the Garda Vote. The Minister stated that the number of gardaí will decrease from 14,262 to 13,000 by the end of 2014 and that there will be no further recruitment. What would the Minister tell gardaí and people on the ground who have major concerns that these measures will damage the Garda's level of service, particularly in terms of community policing?

I assume the Minister is aware of the State's significant drug problem and the damage being done to young people and society as a whole. I am concerned that the reduction in garda numbers will have an impact in this regard. In recent days, I have heard strong evidence that thousands of 15 year olds were getting drugs, particularly in or around the time of a number of young people's discos. I fear that people are turning a blind eye to a considerable problem because they are being distracted by the debate on the current economic climate.

The Minister mentioned that Garda overtime has been reduced from €78 million to €62.2 million. From my nine years of experience as a Deputy, much of the overtime budget is for operations targeting drug gangs. Does the reduction mean that the gangs' leaders are being watched less? Does that mean the Garda will not be on the ball to prevent these gangs carrying out their evil deeds? These are economic as well as major social issues.

The fourth question concerns the cost of the visits by Queen Elizabeth II and President Obama. I was astounded to learn that €36 million had been spent on the visits. That is extraordinary given the cuts for special needs assistants. In his contribution the Minister said there will be long-term benefits from these trips. Has the Minister got the facts given that in recent days I have been speaking with people in the tourism trade, all of whom say there is a major hit. I have major concerns with the fact that €36 million has been spent on the visits.

The fifth question concerns the Criminal Assets Bureau, on which I welcome the Minister's comments. The CAB has been very successful in the whole justice system and in getting €7 million from the proceeds of crime into the Exchequer in 2010. Given that the Minister is planning to extend CAB into other areas, will he consider putting some of the €7 million, which is taken from criminals and drug gang leaders, back into the most disadvantaged areas, particularly, children at risk, to encourage crime prevention?

I dearly wish we were not in the middle of the economic and fiscal catastrophe that has hit the State. I cannot be blind to that. I do not have an open-ended budget. The budget is one I have inherited from the previous Government. In the context of where the State finds itself, to meet public service wages and all our obligations and to maintain front line services we are dependent on borrowing in the region of €18 billion from the IMF and the ECB and I have no way of finding additional funding. The Garda number reduction has to be effected as part of the agreement reached at the end of November by the previous Government with the IMF and the ECB. Before the Deputy arrived, I said that under that agreement the allocation to the Garda this year was based on an assumption that there would be a reduction this year from 14,500 to 13,500. That reduction is unlikely to be achieved because there is no mechanism to encourage members of the force to retire early. The average number of voluntary retirements in any one year is somewhere between 350 to 500 members of the force. The Garda Vote and the funds allocated to it by the previous Government are not adequate. That is the reality. This is an issue that will have to be dealt with within my Department to ensure that all members of the force have their salaries paid to the end of the year. Heading into 2012, my Department will be required, as is every Department, to reduce further its expenditure. We have to do that as best we can and we have to live within our means.

Deputy Finian McGrath said some of the Garda organisations have expressed concern at the reduction in numbers. They would express even greater concern if the IMF and the ECB decided not to pay us any money. Then we would not be able to pay people's wages. In 2007, there were 13,000 gardaí in the country. The State had more gardaí in 2007 than at the height of the Troubles at a time when there were huge additional pressures on the Garda, even greater than today. There were the pressures of criminal gangs and drug gangs. Unfortunately it seems that as one of these gangs fades into oblivion, or goes into prison, they are replaced on an evolving rota by other gangs. The Garda will do everything possible to restrain the activities of those engaged in the evils of the drug trade. The Garda was well able to fulfil its obligations in 2007. I have no reason to believe that what is now a well-trained Force will prove any less capable in 2011 or 2012 of fulfilling its duties when it has between 13,000 and 14,000 members. I hope the Garda representative bodies will recognise that we live in extraordinarily unprecedented times of financial difficulty for the State.

I have every confidence in the ability of members of the force to do their duty, put gangs under pressure and prosecute those engaged not only in the drug trade but in other areas of criminality. I am sure the Deputy who has an interest and follows these matters closely, will have observed in recent weeks the very substantial operations involving An Garda Síochána in which hauls of drugs have been taken, those engaged in this trade have found the Garda inhibiting their actions and there have been significant arrests. There have also been significant arrests relating to individuals who have illegal arms. There is a large variety of operations in which the Garda is engaged in the interests of the community. I assure the Deputy there is no question of giving a free pass to anyone engaged in criminality. The Garda Commissioner and members of the force are determined to ensure that they fully engage to the benefit of the community in the prevention and the detection of crime.

The Deputy commented on the cost of the two recent visits. I greatly regret these visits proved to be so expensive in the context of the security issues that arose. We should put these into a context. If we did not have a very small group of political malcontents and thugs who posed a threat at the time of these visits - some of the individuals engaged in subversion and others engaged in what they perceived to be direct action, but most were involved in either using or threatening violence to the two visitors or to the Garda who was there to protect them - the level of security required would not have been as high, the expense incurred by the taxpayer would not be as great and these funds would be available for other purposes. I am sure the Deputy observed on his television screen, or may have seen some of the events, or read about them in the newspapers, the manner in which some individuals conducted themselves during the course of these visits. The Garda and the Defence Forces did an extraordinary job in protecting Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip and President Obama and his wife from a variety of threats.

As Minister for Justice and Equality I can tell the Deputy there was a series of what turned out to be hoax bomb calls in the lead into and during the course of the visits. Whenever there was such a call they had to be checked out. On occasions, the Defence Forces had to examine devices left to ascertain whether they were hoax or real. A small number of devices presented as dangerous and had to be dealt with. It was of huge importance that these matters were dealt with correctly. Attempts were made to disrupt major occasions by phone calls suggesting bombs had been planted in particular locations. They proved to be hoax calls. Nevertheless these things had to be taken seriously. It is a shame that the visits were the subject of this type of conduct by individuals with a personalised vindictive agenda of malice and intransigence. I hope in future if we have dignitaries from other countries, be they queens, prime ministers, presidents or indeed a king, we will not need this level of security. When Queen Elizabeth was visiting Dublin a great number of people would have welcomed the opportunity to have been in O'Connell Street and in other locations to have got closer to the events and to the event in the Garden of Remembrance as opposed to watching it on television. Fortunately, when she visited Cork it was possible to facilitate greater contact with people who were on the streets. In a civilised democracy at the heart of Europe these things should not be an area of difficulty but they were made such by individuals who sought to engage in something a great deal more serious than mischief. I acknowledge that the expense is substantial but in the long term the success of these visits, the presentation of this country on television across the world, and the feedback generated from the visits will tackle an issue about which I know the Deputy is concerned, as all of us are, which is to try to create employment in this country. We need to get the tourism industry off its knees and get tourists visiting Ireland again. In terms of the impact of these visits, I have been told by some in the hotel industry that in recent weeks they have impacted and they have got feedback from visitors who have stayed in hotels who discussed the visits and who said coming to Ireland was partly motivated or a consequence of what they saw during the course of these visits on television. We can only hope that we build on that and it proves to be beneficial.

Most of what I wanted to say has been covered. In regard to the State visits, the Minister spoke about the Queen's visit to Cork. One of the reasons the visit to Cork worked so well was because those who were opposed to the visit sat down with the local authority and the Garda and an arrangement was put in place where people could peacefully protest against the visit. There is a lesson to be learned from that.

My question, which I do not believe has been asked, concerns Vote 19, C1 dealing with legal aid. Under that subhead, there is a reduction of approximately €6 million. What will be the implications of that reduction?

The implications of that reduction, as I have discovered as Minister, is that the funding the previous Government allocated for legal aid is inadequate and that has posed a real problem. In the context of the criminal legal aid fund we have had to introduce some changes in that area to try to reduce expenditure and live within budget. At the same time it is important that we abide by our obligations to provide legal assistance to people who come before the courts who are unable to afford such legal assistance. I am unhappy with what occurred with the legal aid allocation in the context of this budget but I have to live with it because I have no way of finding other funding. I am aware it has been a cause of some upset to those who represent individuals charged with criminal offences that a change has been introduced into the fee structure but I am left with no choice other than to do that because we could have found ourselves in a position where we would not have the funds at the end of the year to discharge obligations that had arisen.

We are examining how we can more efficiently deal with the criminal legal aid area. As the Deputy will be aware, we are looking at the enactment of legislation which will transfer this area under the aegis of the Legal Aid Board and which we believe can bring about some savings while at the same time ensuring people entitled to legal aid have access to it.

I am also keenly aware that the law centres are under pressure. We are in a position whereby the sum of money allocated to law centres was reduced at a time when the numbers seeking assistance through the law centres has substantially increased. As the Deputy will be aware - I said this in reply to a Dáil question from the Deputy or Deputy Calleary a few weeks ago - I have discussed my concerns about the Legal Aid Board's difficulties with Anne Colley, the chairman of the board. I had a meeting with her a few days ago in my Department together with the chief executive of the board. As Deputies may be aware, my original engagement in public service was as chairman of the free legal advice centre in St. Agnes's convent in the social service centre in Crumlin, of which I was director and ultimately I became chairman of the free legal advice centres. I am keenly aware of the need to ensure people who require legal assistance have it. The backlog or delays in gaining access to advice in some of the law centres is a huge cause of concern to me and to the Legal Aid Board. I hope some of these initial difficulties can be addressed by the Legal Aid Board recruiting through the internship scheme. There are more than 1,000 unemployed solicitors. I have encouraged the Legal Aid Board to do this and Anne Colley confirmed to me that it is actively pursuing this by taking on for a nine month internship some of the qualified solicitors who are currently unemployed. They can be taken on, given real on the job experience and be of benefit in helping to tackle some of the backlog in circumstances in which the State does not have funding to recruit additional solicitors. I hope that will tackle the difficulties in that area. However, in the criminal legal aid area we will have to look further at what other economies might be affected as we go through this year. I hope those who work in the criminal legal aid system will understand the difficulties and the dilemma confronted by the State and by me as Minister for Justice in the context of the limited funding available to me.

I apologise for being late. I was attending another committee meeting next door which was in voting mode and I was unable to be here for the Minister's earlier comments. I welcome him to the committee.

I wish to raise two brief issues. I wish to take up a point raised by Deputy Jonathan O'Brien on the criminal legal aid system. I believe taxpayers find that system an affront to their decency. I do not believe anybody objects in principle to those who cannot afford legal representation having such provided for them. I ask the Minister to comment on the eligibility criteria. If one wants to apply for a social welfare payment, one is financially assessed as to one's means and a determination is made. However, under this scheme, there does not appear to be a similar financial assessment of means other than that the solicitor pleads and, as is invariably the case, pleads repeatedly on behalf of repeat offenders and, as I understand it, there is never an obligation on those seeking legal representation to make any contribution from their means, meagre and all as they may be. There is no disincentive in the scheme, as currently constructed, for people to stay on the right side of the law and not to find themselves coming before the courts repeatedly. We often hear of the three strikes and you are out system and I appreciate the constitutional difficulties to which that gives rise on the basis that everybody is entitled to legal representation. It has to be possible to design a scheme that recognises the constitutional right of people to representation but draws a line under the current system and acknowledges that repeated access to free legal aid under the criminal legal aid scheme is not working. In these stringent times, it is something we cannot afford to ignore. In the context of the funding for that scheme, does the Minister envisage any innovation? It has been suggested that a universal means assessment system be set up that would cover medical card applications, social welfare and housing benefit, as well as criminal legal aid. Those who determine eligibility are not obliged to forensically investigate people's real financial circumstances nor are they required to take account of the number of times applicants have benefitted from taxpayers' largesse in respect of this scheme.

In regard to the Garda vetting office, which I think is based in Thurles, all of us have encountered organisations which have experienced significant delays in the vetting process. Fortunately, the Croke Park agreement offers greater flexibility on staff transfers and I understand civilian staff as well as gardaí are involved in vetting. I recognise the constraints under which the office operates due to the avalanche of applications it must process and there are also human stories in terms of staff who want to be transferred elsewhere but are not permitted do so because they cannot be replaced. I ask the Minister to work with the Minister for Public Reform and Expenditure on a way of providing greater flexibility and urgency to the staffing requirements of the office. I am sure people would like to transfer to Thurles, and others in the unit would like to move elsewhere. Croke Park is supposed to offer that sort of flexibility. We need to deal with the lengthy waiting lists but, equally, we need to address the concerns of staff.

I will deal with the last issue first and come back to the legal aid issue. I am conscious of the backlog in the vetting office. Some time ago I visited Thurles, which does an extraordinary job, and the reason it is under pressure is because of the huge increase in the numbers they are now being asked to vet. It is important that vetting is carried out. When I came into office, the average delay in dealing with vetting applications was 14 weeks. We recruited ten additional temporary staff to the office and when I last inquired into the delay, it had been reduced to ten weeks. To progress from that point, however, additional staff will be needed.

Most of the staff at the unit are civilians, although it is directed by the Garda Síochána. With that in mind, our objective is to get to a position within the vetting office – I discussed this with the Garda Commission within a few days of my appointment – whereby all vetting applications, other than exceptional circumstances which might require inquiries to be made abroad, are dealt with in four weeks. If for special reasons a particular employment opportunity requires a vetting application to be completed in a shorter period, a fast-track mechanism will be put in place.

That is the objective but the question is how we are to achieve it. In the context of getting to that point, I am engaging in two different initiatives, one of which comes from the Garda Commissioner. I have encouraged the Garda Commissioner to recruit interns to tackle the backlog because this is a matter which interns can handle very well. There is a two or three week training period followed by which eight months and one week are left for work. We are also considering the process of transferring people within the public service who may be willing to work in the vetting unit. I have had preliminary conversations with the Minister for Health and I understand he is taking steps, in consultation with the HSE, to find HSE staff who may be interested in transferring to the vetting office to take up work as civilian staff. That is at a preliminary stage but it would create a possibility of permanent employees as opposed to interns. We are adopting a twin-track approach in the context of being constrained from increasing the size of the public service. I hope we achieve our objective. The Garda Commissioner is taking the necessary steps to look for interns under the programme that began on 1 July. I am sure it will take several weeks to recruit them to the vetting unit but I expect that to happen. Certainly by next spring I hope things will be dealt with differently and, if they get the number of interns they seek, they will rapidly reach the four week position. However, we will also need to maintain that position and the question arises, if the interns are only available for a period of nine months, what happens afterwards? There is a need to address that issue.

On the legal aid issue, I am conscious that people see enormous sums of money being spent on the criminal legal aid system and express concerns about it. Many years ago in, I think, the State (Healy) v. Donoghue case in the early 1970s, the Supreme Court determined that a person has a constitutional right to legal aid if he or she is being prosecuted in the criminal courts and lacks the means to pay for a lawyer. That constitutional right is retained regardless of how many times one is prosecuted and we would have difficulties under the European Convention on Human Rights if an individual who had already been convicted on two or three occasions was no longer entitled to legal aid. That constitutional right and the protections afforded by the convention continue to apply.

Two issues arise, however. The legislation relating to legal aid specifically provides, under the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Act 1962, that an applicant must establish to the satisfaction of the court that he or she is of insufficient means to pay for legal representation and the court must also be satisfied "that by reason of the gravity of the charge or of exceptional circumstances it is essential in the interests of justice that he should have legal aid". The Supreme Court took the view in State (Healy) v. Donoghue that an applicant was not so constrained and if he or she was being prosecuted, he or she was entitled to legal aid. The legislation tries to circumscribe it in a way that I am not completely sure would stand up to constitutional scrutiny.

The way it works stands up to constitutional scrutiny and difficulties have not arisen in this area. At present when someone is being prosecuted in, for example, the District Court, the presiding judge determines whether legal aid should be provided and, in the vast majority of cases, the application is granted. The unfortunate reality is that the vast majority of those who come before the courts in criminal cases cannot afford to pay for lawyers. Even if one has an income that is slightly above social welfare rates, one will not be able to afford to meet the legal fees that arise from a prosecution in the Circuit Criminal Court or the Central Criminal Court, whatever about the District Court.

I have concerns about the matter, however, and this is one of the reasons we are considering the transfer of the criminal legal aid scheme to the Legal Aid Board, which has substantial experience in this area. In that context, a new Bill is being drafted to introduce a number of measures aimed at bringing more rigour to the means assessment process, including enhanced checks and controls, mandatory written applications, links to the Department of Social Protection and increased penalties for false or misleading information. The measures will largely be targeted at people who have some means. They would be subject to audit and spot checks in respect of applications for legal aid. We hope new work systems will be introduced by the Legal Aid Board. People have the right to be outraged that there have been occasions where it has appeared as if some individuals with substantial funds of uncertain origin nevertheless succeeded in obtaining legal aid. We must ensure to address the issue as best we can but we must also do it in circumstances where the capacity of the courts to process criminal trials with a reasonable level of speed is not inhibited. There is a balance to be achieved in each of those.

The Minister mentioned the legislation was from the 1960s.

It strikes me that the weakness that must be addressed in the new legislation being contemplated is that eligibility is determined to the satisfaction of the court. Eligibility should be determined in respect of an independent assessment of means done at arm's length from the court process. In other words there should be some agency of State that assesses people's financial standing and indicates that a person can afford or cannot a contribution. The weakness in the current legislation is that it is perceived that there is a cosy club between the Judiciary and legal representatives who are divvying up the cake on the altar of the client's misdemeanours. It seems to be shared out without any real scrutiny. The satisfaction of the court is not an acceptable yardstick any longer.

That is why we are looking to introduce legislation. I disagree with the Deputy in a sense in that it is unfair to suggest that judges are divvying up a fund in the interests of the legal profession and not behaving correctly. District judges are very aware of concerns in this area and it has become very clear that a number are querying applications for legal aid in appropriate circumstances, which is correct.

It is important to maintain the integrity of the criminal justice system that those who are prosecuted for offences and genuinely cannot afford legal representation have such representation made available to them. It is a basic right in a constitutional democracy but it is important that people, especially those engaged in criminality, do not milk the system. We are having careful regard to the issue in the architecture of the legislation prepared but we must act in a way that does not ultimately prove more costly to the State by unnecessarily delaying court hearings, resulting in gardaí spending more time waiting for court cases to be heard or having to revisit the cases because of additional adjournments required while applications for legal aid are processed.

We must also ensure we do not increase the expense of the Legal Aid Board by creating a new bureaucracy processing criminal legal aid applications. That may prove more expensive than any money which may be saved in the provision of criminal legal aid. I hope that before the end of the year we will publish legislation in the area, and Deputies will have the opportunity to tease out the matter and make any constructive suggestions for improvement.

I agree with much of the Minister's comment but what frustrates people in many communities, especially working class communities, is certain people coming before the courts getting free legal aid. The Minister mentioned it. It is almost known that these people have means.

They have funds from a certain origin.

Exactly. We are talking about guys who may drive cars worth €20,000. Coming before the courts they may be convicted, get a slap on the wrist or do a couple of weeks in prison. When they come out they drive the same car. That annoys people, especially those working to improve communities. We must focus on that aspect, although I agree that everybody is entitled to legal representation and a fair trial conducted in a speedy manner. It can be frustrating for people to see certain defendants who get free legal aid driving such expensive cars.

I totally agree with the Deputy and could not add anything to the debate.

I am also in agreement. In rural areas especially people know where these funds of uncertain origin have come from. Such issues undermine the entire judicial system and my party will support any legislation to tackle them. It is important to bring that forward as quickly as possible, particularly given the Minister's background in the area.

Top
Share