Select Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality debate

Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Supplementary)

Chairman

All mobile telephones should be switched off as they cause interference with the recording system, even in silent mode. This meeting has been convened to consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 20 - Garda Síochána and Vote 24 - Justice and Equality. I propose that the committee consider both Supplementary Estimates together.

The Supplementary Estimates for Vote 20 - Garda Síochána and Vote 24 - Justice and Equality were referred to the committee by the Dáil on 19 November 2013 with an instruction to report back to the Dáil not later than 21 November 2013. The role of the committee under Standing Orders is to consider the Supplementary Estimates and report, by way of a message to the Dáil, that we have done so. I thank the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, and his officials from the Department for attending and assisting our consideration of these Supplementary Estimates. I also thank them for the briefing material circulated in advance to members of the committee.

I propose that the following arrangements apply to the debate. The Minister will address the committee and after that each of the Opposition spokespersons will have the opportunity to respond. We can then have an open discussion. Is that agreed? Agreed. I remind members that in accordance with Standing Orders, discussions should be confined to the items constituting the Supplementary Estimates. I ask members to stick to the matters on the agenda and not to wander off to other issues.

Deputy Finian McGrath

We always stick to the agenda.

Chairman

Of course. I am very grateful to the Deputy for his co-operation.

Deputy Finian McGrath

That applies to the Minister as well.

Chairman

Indeed. I invite the Minister to begin.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Alan Shatter)

I thank the committee for making time available today to consider my request for a Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána and Justice and Equality Votes.

There are five Votes within the justice group which, to ensure the effective management of resources for the entire justice sector, are treated as a single group. Therefore, while there is a requirement for additional funding for the Garda Vote of €50.994 million and a provision of almost €5 million needs to be made within the Justice and Equality Vote to fund initial payments to the women who were admitted to and worked in the Magdalen Laundries, a significant proportion of the additional requirement can be funded by savings in other areas within the Vote group. Thus, of the additional €51 million required for the Garda Vote and €5 million for the Magdalen related payments in the justice Vote, almost €24 million is available from elsewhere within the Vote group, leaving the total external funding required by the justice group at just over €32 million.

The offsetting savings to reduce the external funding requirements are primarily in the Justice and Equality Vote, at least €17 million, prisons at €5 million, and a combined surrender balance of more than €1.5 million in the Courts Service and Property Registration Authority Votes. This leaves the net Supplementary Estimate requirement for the justice Vote group at €32 million, some 1.4% of the total justice Vote group gross allocation, not €51 million, a fact conveniently overlooked when the Fianna Fáil spokesperson took to the airwaves earlier this week.

The Deputy also failed to mention that a Supplementary Estimate requirement is neither unusual nor unexpected in a financial allocation that is as broad and diverse as the justice Vote group, nor is it unusual that savings in one Vote within the group are reallocated to offset costs in another. I will give some examples of how this has occurred on previous occasions. In 2007, when Deputy Niall Collins's party was in Government, the Supplementary Estimate requirement for the justice Vote group was €67 million, of which €25 million was needed for the Garda Vote. This was partly offset by a €12 million underspend elsewhere in the Vote group leaving a requirement for external funding of €55 million. In 2009, €30 million was needed to supplement the Garda Vote and this was partly offset by a €15 million underspend in other Votes. In 2010, €40 million was moved within the Garda Vote to meet an additional requirement in payroll costs.

Is Deputy Collins suggesting that in 2013 something unusual is occurring or that we should not pay members of the Garda Síochána? It seemed to me, as I listened to the Deputy, that he was disappointed we have maintained Garda numbers at in excess of 13,000 and that the Garda has been extraordinarily successful during the course of the year in the duties members of the force have undertaken.

It has been interesting to note some of the media coverage in relation to this year's justice Vote group requirement for a Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Vote. On the one hand, there has been a suggestion that the Garda Síochána is under-resourced and gardaí have been rendered incapable of doing their job properly. On the other hand, some of the same media commentators and writers have rightly given extensive coverage of hugely successful Garda operations and seizures which have resulted in a myriad of headlines and some praise for the Garda Síochána. I will outline some examples.

Earlier this month, 89 people were arrested in a 24 hour period under Operation Wireless. It followed more than 400 planned searches throughout the country in relation to robbery, burglary, theft, handling stolen property, possession of drugs and firearms offences.

There was a co-ordinated drive against those involved in burglaries under Operation Fiacla to which I have referred frequently during the last 12 months. The latest Central Statistics Office figures show that burglary offences decreased by 8.9%, continuing the trend observed since the introduction of the operation. That means there has been an annual reduction of 8.9%. As Deputies will know, Operation Fiacla is intelligence driven and specific burglary initiatives have been implemented in each Garda region to target suspect offenders. As of 31 October, 6,972 persons have been arrested, something I hope members of the committee welcome, and 3,971 persons have been charged with burglary offences under Operation Fiacla.

Operation Nitrogen continues to be very successful in identifying and dismantling cannabis cultivation sites across all areas of the country. Seizures of cannabis plants valued at in excess of €16 million were recorded for the first three quarters of 2013. Deputies will be familiar with the frequent reports of the Garda successfully identifying grow houses in various parts of the country. A very significant seizure of plants worth an estimated €2 million was made on 21 October at cannabis cultivation sites in counties Kerry, Roscommon and Cavan.

Operation Stilts is an ongoing overt Garda operation targeting anti-social behaviour and drug related crimes in Dublin city centre locations. It has been continuing and has proved successful.

Just this week, on 18 November, a major production facility was detected in Waterford which had the capacity to launder approximately 10 million litres of fuel per annum with a potential loss to the Exchequer of approximately €5 million per annum. A number of large tanks and ancillary equipment were seized and the laundering plant was dismantled. Investigations into the fuel laundry operation are continuing.

The members of the committee and the public can rest assured that the Garda Síochána continues to rise to the many challenges facing the organisation daily. Operational decisions taken by the Garda Commissioner and those working with him have resulted in the targeting of criminal gangs and those involved in subversive activities, with the result that many have been convicted and sentenced before our courts and are in jail. The most recently published CSO crime statistics detailed a reduction in criminal offences in 12 of the 14 crime groups, with an overall 8% reduction in the incidence of crime in the 12 months to mid-2013. These statistics underline the positive impact the Garda is having on crime and the success of the Commissioner's strategy to maximise the use of resources, something of great importance, with intelligent and targeted deployment which is clearly working.

With regard to Deputy Collins, in his enthusiasm to make some political point on the national airwaves, he appears to have conveniently forgotten that the Fianna Fáil-led Government’s National Recovery Plan 2011-2014, published on 24 November 2010, contained expenditure ceilings for the justice sector which would have made it impossible for the Garda Síochána and other areas of the justice sector to operate effectively. In fact, it is a racing certainty that had the Fianna Fáil figures been applied, we would in all probability have faced a situation where Garda numbers might have dropped to 11,500 rather than the 13,000 overall figure that the current Government has set as its objective target strength for the force.

It is, once again, grossly hypocritical of Fianna Fáil to be criticising the Government over Garda numbers, calling for increases and shouting the odds over seeking a Supplementary Estimate to make available the funding necessary to maintain Garda services, when their own plan would have almost certainly have ensured Garda numbers would have had to drop to unacceptably low levels, or alternatively a massive supplementary budget would have been required to bridge the gap. Fortunately, I have managed to ensure the current expenditure ceilings are much healthier for the group, by more than €400 million for the three years 2012 to 2014, inclusive, when compared with the previous government’s provision. In 2013, for example, the current expenditure ceiling proposed under the previous Government’s national recovery plan was €2.009 billion. The actual current expenditure allocation per the Revised Estimates Volume was €2.163 billion, an increase of €154 million. In real terms, the likelihood is that had the previous Government’s expenditure ceiling remained in place, the committee would have been discussing a Supplementary Estimate requirement of €154 million plus €32 million, which amounts to €186 million across the Vote group, rather than the amount of just over €32 million required in the current year. That is a sum substantially less than that sought on some occasions in the past by my predecessors who were Fianna Fáil appointed Ministers for the justice area.

Leaving aside the figures for a moment and returning to the contention from some quarters that a budgetary shortfall in some way inhibited members of the Garda Síochána in their work, I would like to say the following.

My position on this matter has been crystal clear from the beginning of the year. I said that the funding required for Garda payroll and other essential requirements would be available, and this is case. It seems the objection of Deputy Niall Collins is that the Garda payroll funds are available and that what I promised has been proved to be correct. The process we are undertaking today is evidence of this. It is worth pointing out again that a Supplementary Estimate in the case of the Garda Vote is not an unusual occurrence, nor is it unique to my period as Minister for Justice and Equality.

By far the largest Vote within the Group is the Garda Síochána Vote, which accounts for some 63% of current expenditure. Almost 90% of expenditure in the Garda Síochána Vote is accounted for by payroll and pension costs. It is, therefore, almost inevitable, in the context of a Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Vote, that a proportion of this will involve either pay or pensions. The fact that there are potentially more than 1,200 Garda members with the required service who could exercise an option to retire on age grounds means that Garda payroll costs are something of an imprecise science. The fact that we have so many who could potentially retire has been used in previous years to suggest they would all retire in one year and Garda numbers would be dramatically reduced. That was not the case last year or this year but it is not possible to predict with absolute accuracy the numbers who will retire or continue.

This notwithstanding, the reality is that the Commissioner has 13,137 members of An Garda Síochána, as of the end of October, plus 1,129 Garda reserve members available to him to provide a policing service. An additional 187 men and women are in training for the Garda reserve. More than 2,000 civilian staff provide essential support services in An Garda Síochána. In addition, civilian personnel have been redeployed from elsewhere within the public sector to meet urgent needs within An Garda Síochána in areas such as the Garda vetting unit with the aim of reducing processing times in this very important area.

There are other factors contributing to the total payroll costs, including the overtime and allowance costs associated with the G8 Summit in June. However, I would point out that a separate once-off allocation of €10 million was provided in the current year to meet additional costs associated with the security arrangements for Ireland’s Presidency of the European Union and the OSCE conference held in Dublin in December 2012. As with all major Garda operations, security requirements were kept under constant review by Garda management, with the result that a significant saving of approximately €6.4 million emerged from this allocation which was used to offset the G8 and other costs, including payroll.

It is important to note that a significant element of any Supplementary Estimate is the technical rebalancing of allocations between subheads approaching year end. The under-spend I have alluded to in the in the EU Presidency and OSCE subhead is an example of this. It is also important to point out that the additional payroll costs have yielded significantly more than the budgeted pension contributions and this has provided almost €7 million in additional appropriation-in-aid receipts to balance the additional payroll costs.

Like all areas of the public sector, An Garda Síochána has taken its share of reductions over recent years. An obvious manifestation of this has been the moratorium on recruitment, with the last recruits entering Templemore in 2009. I am particularly pleased that the situation is to change during 2014, with a new recruitment campaign due to commence within the next few weeks. I am also pleased that I was recently able to announce, in the context of the recent Estimates for 2014, that the targeted objective strength of An Garda Síochána will be maintained at 13,000 members. I expect that in the first week in December, formal advertisements seeking applicants for recruitment to the Garda Síochána will be published.

The total available spend on the Garda fleet in the period 2012 to 2014 is €18 million. Out of this allocation, 651 vehicles have been purchased in the 2012 to 2013 period, with an amount of €4 million available for the fleet in 2014. The corresponding figure for the previous three year period 2009 to 2011 under the previous Administration's Estimate was less than €5 million, with 217 vehicles purchased. There has been a substantial and dramatic increase in the funding available for the purchase of Garda vehicles during my time in office.

A technical adjustment is required within the Garda Vote to offset receipts from certain fixed charge notices arising from the operation of the Go Safe road safety camera contract against the outsourced cost of providing this service. The key objective of this road safety initiative is to reduce road deaths and bring about improvements in driver behaviour. I am pleased to say that all the evidence points to the success of this measure.

A technical Supplementary Estimate is required in the Justice and Equality Vote, with additional budgetary requirements offset by savings and reprioritisation of expenditure from elsewhere within the Vote. Almost all of the areas that require additional provision within the Justice and Equality Vote in 2013 are within programme C, which is to facilitate the provision and administration of justice. The programme covers areas such as criminal and civil legal aid, the Forensic Science Laboratory and the commissions and special inquiries subhead.

It is proposed, by way of technical Supplementary Estimate, to increase by €1.1 million the grant-in-aid provision available to the Legal Aid Board in 2013. The requirement is attributable directly to additional responsibilities taken on by the Legal Aid Board in relation to legal aid custody issues and other ad hoc legal aid schemes. In addition, through its refugee legal service, the Legal Aid Board is providing appropriate legal representation to applicants making their cases for subsidiary protection. The additional requirement in this case arises from new regulations which provide for applicants to be interviewed as part of the first instance investigation of their subsidiary protection application. Moreover, in the event of a negative recommendation following the first instance investigation of their case, they will have the opportunity to appeal.

While the cost of criminal legal aid has reduced in recent years due to the introduction of a number of cost-reducing measures, including reductions in legal fees, an additional provision of up to €3 million will be required in 2013. The total expenditure is expected to be in the region of €50.5 million, which is on a par with 2012 and significantly less than the two previous years, when expenditure exceeded €56 million per annum. A significant increase of €7.3 million is also required in respect of the payment of awards made by the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal. This subhead is cash limited and the only mechanism available for increasing the funding in the subhead is through the Supplementary Estimate process.

The value of accepted awards by applicants now stands at approximately €7.3 million in excess of the available funds in the subhead. This excess is largely due to a number of significant awards of compensation that have been made in recent years and have placed great financial strain on the scheme. Various administrative arrangements are in place to ensure the scheme stays within the available budget, including a financial limit of €250,000 on the amount that can be paid in any individual case in a particular year. This means that, in the case of the larger awards, it may take the State several years to pay the award. It is considered prudent at this stage to discharge the outstanding accepted awards in full, which gives rise to the requirement for a technical Supplementary Estimate.

I am considering detailed proposals in relation to the overhaul of this scheme which are likely to include placing it on a statutory basis, more streamlined administrative arrangements, and other revisions necessary to being the scheme into line with modern governance practices and financial procedures. The details of any revised scheme will be published in due course, but various issues require further clarification and discussion with relevant parties before a reformed scheme is put in place.

I am pleased that the work of my Department and the interdepartmental group established to examine the implementation of the recommendations in the Mr. Justice Quirke report will shortly mean that lump sum ex gratia payments will be made in respect of a number of the applications from women who were admitted to and worked in Magdalen laundries. While I have at all times been keen to simplify the application process as much as possible, there were still a number of important steps and processes to be gone through. In addition, it has also been necessary to establish the additional benefits, whether through the social welfare system or the health system, to which these women may be entitled. This will enable the women to make an informed decision regarding any offer from the State.

We are at the stage where offers will be made in some cases very shortly. In fact, I know that letters have issued in the last 24 hours to some of the women concerned. Therefore it is considered prudent to provide for payments to the women in a proportion of these cases prior to the end of this year. It is likely, however, that the bulk of the payments will be made in 2014, and sufficient budgetary provision will be made by the Government in 2014 for this.

There are a number of relatively small savings within the subheads in programme C. This programme also includes the Commissions and Special Inquiries subhead, which has a saving of €2.5 million. The cost of the recent Court of Appeal referendum is also being met from this subhead. The bulk of the funding for these costs comes from surplus appropriation-in-aid receipts arising mainly from the measures I have taken since my appointment as Minister for Justice and Equality to clear the backlog in citizenship applications.

The savings to assist in offsetting the additional requirement in the Garda Vote will be reflected in surrender balances in the other Votes in the group. Leaving aside the additional €4.9 million for the Magdalen-related payments and costs, which was always going to be funded from outside the Vote group, the Justice Vote will have a surrender balance of at least €17 million to offset the cost of the Garda supplementary. The savings in question arise across a range of areas, including various administrative subheads and other subheads such as INIS and asylum seeker accommodation.

The Prison Service will have a saving of €5 million in capital expenditure, due mainly to some payments for work on Cork and Limerick Prisons arising in 2014 rather than 2013, as originally envisaged. This is being used to directly offset the additional investment in the Garda transport fleet. There are relatively small savings in the Courts Service and Property Registration Authority Votes, which will form a cumulative surrender balance of approximately €1.5 million in respect of these Votes.

This is effectively the background to the Supplementary Estimates before this committee today. I am sure the committee members appreciate the varied range of issues impacting on the justice sector, which makes it absolutely essential to have the flexibility to utilise savings in one area, irrespective of the Vote to which it belongs, to offset costs in others. This is a formula that has been adopted in the past. It is important to remind Deputies that the changes relate to only 1.4% of the overall Estimate provisions for the justice sector, which amounts in total to almost €2.2 billion. On that note, I recommend the Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána and Justice and Equality Votes to the committee and I am happy to discuss any issues that arise.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and invite Deputy Collins to respond.

Deputy Niall Collins

Thank you, Chairman. I must respond.

Chairman

Yes, but try to stick to the Estimates.

Deputy Niall Collins

Yes, okay. I reject the misrepresentations of me by the Minister. He has misrepresented some of my comments. For the benefit of other members of the committee and to refresh the Minister's memory, it was widely reported by reputable sources earlier this year that the Garda payroll budget would fall short. I questioned the Minister in the Dáil on a number of occasions on that matter. He replied in the negative and said that there would not be an issue. I was doing my job in raising a concern which had been expressed publicly. I also sought some information under the Freedom of Information Act and was denied that information by the deciding officer in the Department. The reason given for that denial was that it was the subject of ongoing negotiations. However, we are where we are now and I do not need to replay the game all over again with the Minister. Suffice to say that of course all public servants should be paid and it is wrong of the Minister, if not beneath him, to come in here and allege that I do not want to see people getting paid. Perhaps when he is responding, the Minister might tell us at what point during the year it was flagged to him that the payroll budget for An Garda Síochána would fall short.

The Minister referred to recruitment in his statement. There is a lot of interest in the forthcoming Garda recruitment campaign, and the advertisements will be published some time before Christmas. How many recruits will be taken on in the initial recruitment drive? A number of queries have been raised with me about the status of the Garda Reserve force. Will existing members of that force be treated differently in the application process by virtue of the fact that they are members of the Garda Reserve force? Will they have a competitive edge?

Finally, regarding free legal aid, I ask the Minister to give us an overview of the workings of the legal aid system. I know we will be examining this more closely at a future date in the context of proposed legislation. There is concern about the fact that there are a community of people who are repeat clients of the free legal aid scheme, particularly the criminal free legal aid scheme. What is the position regarding the seeking of a contribution from such people towards the cost of the provision of free legal aid services? Many of these people complete a statement of means, and I am interested in the collection by the State of client contributions towards the provision of free legal aid.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I am going to respond in reverse order and deal with the legal aid question first. The Deputy is right that there are some individuals who repetitively apply for free criminal legal aid because they are repetitive offenders. The Deputy will be aware that there are decisions of our Supreme Court and of the European courts which delineate that an individual who is charged with a criminal offence who cannot pay for representation is entitled to legal aid. The reality is that if people genuinely lack the means to provide their own defence, it does not matter if they are repeat offenders. If they were not provided with free criminal legal aid then ultimately any conviction obtained against them or sentence imposed would be struck down by the High Court or the Supreme Court as being invalid, based on their not having had their constitutional rights protected. Indeed, this State would be subject to criticism by the European Court of Human Rights if we did that.

Having said all that, work is going on in my Department in examining the system. The Deputy is aware that we ultimately hope to bring forward legislation to provide for a different mechanism for making applications for criminal legal aid and to involve the Legal Aid Board in that. Publication of that legislation is still some way off because of the priority that has been attached to finalising the Legal Services Bill, enacting the children and family relationships Bill and introducing the immigration, residence and protection Bill, as well as dealing with the legislation to establish a new court of appeal. We will be dealing with all of this in the coming weeks.

My officials are looking at legal aid at the moment and particularly the rules relating to criminal legal aid. They are also examining the application forms, which have been in use for some considerable time, with a view to determining whether we can modernise them, using the regulatory process under existing legislation, to ensure that those who may well be able to afford to pay for their own defence in criminal proceedings do not pull the wool over the eyes of our courts. I can say no more about that issue at present but I agree it is a matter of concern. We have managed to effect some savings in the criminal legal aid bill. The figure in the Estimates for criminal legal aid for 2013 was €47 million. We have estimated that it will come in at around €50 million. The scheme is demand-led and we cannot predict with certainty what the final cost will be each year.

The figure was €56 million in previous years and we have managed to achieve savings of approximately €6 million a year since then. I would like us to effect savings while ensuring people's rights are protected. We hope to deal further with this ongoing issue. When it comes to making an application for legal aid, there is an obligation on District Court judges to ensure they apply the means test that exists. Criminal legal aid should not be granted to individuals who clearly can fund their own defence. Under the existing legislation, that is a matter to be dealt with by the District Court judge to whom the legal aid application is made.

As I am dealing with the Deputy's queries in reverse order, I will now respond to what he had to say about the Garda Reserve force. When places in An Garda Síochána are advertised, all applicants have to be treated equally. One cannot give preferential treatment to one applicant over and above another. The exact format for dealing with the processing of the applications is being finalised. Members of the Garda Reserve force may have some advantage by virtue of their training and their understanding of and engagement with members of the Garda itself. At present, approximately 1,000 members of the Garda Reserve force attend at Garda stations and engage with An Garda Síochána. I presume their knowledge will be of some assistance to those who come through the process and find themselves at interview stages. It is clear that we cannot automatically admit members of the Garda Reserve force into Templemore. It is important that the necessary process is followed. I expect that a number of members of the Garda Reserve force who are eligible on age grounds - one can apply to be a member of the Garda up to the age of 35 - will showing an interest in joining An Garda Síochána, as opposed to simply remaining members of the reserve. Obviously, we will have to wait and see what the reaction to the advertisements will be. As Deputy Collins knows, I have mentioned previously that expressions of interest have been received from over 30,000 people. The formal application process must be followed.

The Deputy asked how many people would be recruited during this recruitment drive. As I have said, the objective strength of the Garda is 13,000. It is expected that the strength of the force will be approximately 13,100 - perhaps between 13,120 and 13,130 - by the end of December. One would not normally expect substantial numbers of gardaí to retire early in the year. I assume we will reach next summer with approximately 13,100 members still in the force. If we are to maintain that strength, decisions will have to be made to ensure the intake into the force is sufficient. It is anticipated that two groups will probably be recruited during 2014 - an initial group will come into Templemore and a further group will follow within three months. We will not wait until the end of the process. I would describe it as a rolling recruitment process. No final decision on the size of the first intake has been made. The Garda courses have been revised and modernised for the new recruits. The authorities in the college in Templemore may take the view that the first group to take the new course should be a little smaller than the second group to do so. I do not have an answer in that regard. It will be a matter for consultation with the Garda Commissioner and the Garda College. My objective is to achieve what we have set out to achieve. It is very welcome that we are recruiting new members to the force. The big issue here is the logistics associated with the number of applications that will be received. We must ensure applications are dealt with in a completely fair and transparent way. We will draw up panels of appropriate applicants with reasonable speed so that we can proceed as we anticipate doing.

I have no wish to have an unnecessary row with Deputy Collins on the issue of the budget. If one takes an historical view of Estimates from this Department, one will find that a Supplementary Estimate such as the one we are considering today has practically always been needed. Moneys need to be moved from one subhead to another because there are variables, depending on what is happening. As Deputies will have seen, some of this relates to Garda overtime. I was criticised during the year because members of the force were not being allowed to engage in overtime under any circumstances. They have been allowed to engage in overtime where the Commissioner, or those working under him, has deemed it necessary and appropriate. There are variables, as I have said. In the context of looking at the overall finances, it is normal towards the end of the third quarter of the year to look at what the projections are, where there are savings and where additional funding is required. Decisions on how to properly approach the Supplementary Estimate are then made on that basis.

I would like to mention a couple of things we are doing which are very important. As I have said, over €7 million in compensation payments is outstanding. The practice has been that it has taken the State some time to make those payments. It has been traditional for some years for arrears to keep building. I am not criticising anyone for this, as it has happened under the watch of various Ministers. We have made a principled decision that we should not leave people who have been given an award waiting for 18 months or two years to receive it. We are in a position to ensure that does not happen. Some €7 million is being provided for as part of an attempt to wipe out this arrears bill, which has been carried from year to year. The funding always seems to have worked out that way. I am concerned about how this is affecting people. It is important to do this to ensure the State is seen to meet its obligations with reasonable speed.

Chairman

Does Deputy O'Brien want to respond or make any observations?

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I welcome what the Minister has said on the last point. The prudent decision to include a figure for this year in the context of the current examination of the Magdalen laundries issue is also a positive step. As the Minister said in his opening remarks, letters have been issued or are about to be issued. I think that is the right thing to do, even if most of the payments will be made in 2014. I do not know whether the Minister wishes to say anything else on that.

It is not unusual to have Supplementary Estimates. The first time we dealt with a Supplementary Estimate while I was a member of this committee, following the change of Government, we were asked to approve a huge figure. The Minister said at the time that he did not like introducing Supplementary Estimates because it was not a desirable way to do business. They will always be needed, particularly in the case of the justice Votes, under which there are a number of demand-led services. It is not an exact science. While Supplementary Estimates might not be desirable, I think it is inevitable that this committee will always have to consider them.

There are positive elements to Supplementary Estimates as well. A number of savings have been made. We saved a considerable amount of money in respect of once-off events relating to the Presidency of the Council of the European Union - for example, in Garda operations. I appreciate that some of this money was allocated to the policing of the G8 summit. The opportunity existed to do so. The Minister spoke about transferring some money from the capital budget for the provision of additional vehicles. I have always called for this on behalf of my party. I will not criticise an initiative such as that. We have always said we wanted to see an adequate level of resourcing for An Garda Síochána. Given that we have called for additional resources, it would be hypocritical of us to come in here and criticise the Minister for introducing a Supplementary Estimate which does exactly that. This is probably not the ideal way to deal with these matters, however. It would be better if we could deal with them at budget time. As I have said, it is probable that this committee will always face such a scenario in the context of this Vote.

I welcome the recruitment campaign that is about to be undertaken.

Sinn Féin has consistently called on the Government to maintain, if not increase, the number of gardaí on the beat. The sight of gardaí instils public confidence in the force, which is vital.

Many recent media reports have focused on the level of funding and resources available to the Garda Síochána. Such a high level of media coverage has naturally resulted in a perception, which may not be based on reality, permeating into the public domain that the Garda is not sufficiently resourced to perform its duties on behalf of the public. One area that received considerable attention in Cork, my home city, was the provision of funding for drug units. While I accept that the allocation of funding is an operational matter for the Garda Síochána, many operational decisions are based on budgetary provisions.

Perhaps the Minister will comment on a series of reports published in the Irish Examiner on the increase in drugs, especially heroin, in Cork and its environs. As someone who represents the city, I assure the Minister that the drug problem is growing and is fast becoming an epidemic. Unfortunately, an increasing number of young people are becoming hooked on heroin, a vile drug, and many have lost their lives. Since 2008, when an increase in the availability of heroin was first noted in the city, the Garda has always been vigilant and proactive in working with other State agencies to try to stem the rise in heroin abuse. However, we are reaching a tipping point, particularly as funding for drug task forces and community groups that deal with the scourge of heroin is being reduced. I am not sure whether the Minister will comment on that aspect of Garda budgets and resources given that it is an operational issue for the Garda.

I welcome the additional allocation of €5 million for the Magdalen laundries redress process.

On Cork Prison, the Minister stated some payments anticipated this year will carry over into next year. While I understand he is not permitted to comment in this setting, perhaps he could provide a quick update on the capital project at Cork Prison in the context of the budgetary process.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I thank Deputy O'Brien for the various comments he has made and for raising issues. I am pleased to note that substantial moneys were saved on the security side during the Presidency. I pay tribute to the fantastic work done by the Garda in this regard. Ministers from 27 member states attended meetings, with more in the case of certain meetings where Ministers from other states had observer status. There were no difficulties of any description and security issues were dealt with seamlessly and successfully. The Garda managed to do this at substantially less cost than during the previous Irish Presidency in 2004.

A great deal of planning was involved in this process. This included ensuring that meetings took place substantially in the same venues and only a discrete number of hotels were used, all of which had been security vetted in advance. Focusing and centring meetings on the Dublin Castle complex effected substantial cost savings compared to previous Presidencies when meetings tended to take place in whatever happened to be the constituency of the individual Minister who was presiding over them. We moved away entirely from that approach because it created enormous additional security costs and was of no benefit to anybody, although it had a perceived benefit for the relevant Ministers who used to believe they would get a slap on the back in their local newspaper for bringing a large number of European Union Ministers and officials into the constituency. This approach saved substantial sums. Having made an allocation that was substantially lower than that provided for security in 2004, the outcome was even better than anticipated. The Garda did a very good job. It also did a very important job on the G8 summit. I pay tribute to the Garda and PSNI for working together to ensure the necessary security for what was a major and important event on this island.

On capital budgets and prisons, it is worth pointing out that there are enormous changes taking place in the prison system. By the end of this year, there will not be a single prisoner in a cell in Mountjoy Prison which does not have in-cell sanitation. Work will continue into next year on a section of the prison that is to be vacated by prisoners.

On Cork Prison, invitations to tender issued to a number of pre-qualified bidders on 16 July. It was originally hoped these would be returned by 25 September but it was necessary, for a number or reasons, to extend the tender date to 14 October. The bids have been received and are under evaluation. Construction will commence in 2014. As such, we have made considerable advances in the process of having a new prison built in Cork.

A new wing is being added to Limerick Prison and major changes are under way. With all of this happening and some of the construction that has been taking place in the prisons, we were able to identify approximately €5 million which would not be spent by the end of the year. I engaged with my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, and it was agreed that this sum could be used for the purchase of additional Garda cars before the end of the year. This was a cost-effective way of dealing with the issue and I was anxious to ensure we purchased additional cars. We wanted to identify the financial source for doing so without having to seek an additional sum of money. I am advised that the cars have been substantially purchased at this stage, although it takes a little while for them to be put into operation because of what happens once they are purchased. The process has gone very well.

Between the €5 million sum to which I referred and the additional €4 million available for next year, the Garda will have a substantially modernised fleet in a number of areas. This is a continuing issue. I do not want Deputy Collins to think I am shooting at him but part of the problem with the Garda fleet is that a significant number of cars are becoming obsolete at the same time, in mileage terms, on account of the low funding that was made available for Garda cars between 2009 and 2011. Adequate funding was provided prior to 2009 and it is understandable that funding reduced in circumstances of financial difficulty. It is, however, a practical reality, one which means that a number of cars are being taken out of service within a short period. The injection of €9 million was required for this reason and I hope this will work out.

On the drugs issue, it is of great importance that we maintain pressure on those who are engaged in the drugs trade. Cannabis, which a Member of this House wants to legalise, is often a gateway to people dealing in and using other drugs such as heroin. The Garda has maintained a substantial focus on this area. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien is correct that, as an operational matter for the Garda Commissioner, it is ultimately for him to make specific decisions. The last thing anyone needs is a Minister for Justice and Equality who interferes in day-to-day policing. I leave such matters to the experts. Nevertheless, a substantial number of things have been taking place in this regard. Drugs valued in excess of €50 million have already been seized this year. If I put it this way, they have been financially assessed and there is some other stuff on which we do not yet have a financial identity.

I will provide a little more information on Operation Nitrogen to which I referred. The operation continues to be very successful in identifying cannabis cultivation across the country. Believe it or not, the Garda advises that 55,000 cannabis plants with an approximate street value of €44 million were seized in 2012.

A further substantial amount of cannabis has been seized during the course of this year, but we do not have the end of year figures. The value of what has been seized so far this year exceeds €16 million. We will have better visibility of the end of year figures for this year towards the end of the first quarter of next year. Operation Kingfisher, the response to the head shop phenomena, basically led to the closure of unregulated shops selling psychoactive drugs. I mentioned Operation Stilts earlier. It focused on those selling drugs in the city centre, particularly in the Dublin north central division. Operation Pangea is a long-term Interpol-led operation aimed at policing the online availability of unlicensed and counterfeit medicines. Heroin is not the only problem. In Dublin and some other areas, the problem is the selling of medicines illegally, medicines that can be used for proper purposes, but which are being substantially abused. This is a particular issue of concern. The figure for drug seizures overall is interesting. Drug seizures for the period 2011 to end of September 2013 come to a value of €221 million. This gives some insight into the extent of Garda activity in this area.

Chairman

I ask both the Minister and members to stick to the subject of the Supplementary Estimate headings. I have allowed some flexibility and movement away from these, but while the issues we have been discussing are important and interesting, the focus should be on the Supplementary Estimates.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Minister's submission on the Estimates gave the impression everything is hunky dory in our justice system, but the situation is the opposite. I have some questions with regard to his submission because there is a major problem with the justice system in regard to crime that is not being dealt with.

In regard to the Supplementary Estimates and the effective management of resources, does the Minister accept it is the duty of the Opposition to challenge and ask questions on the Estimates? The buck stops with the Minister and in the current economic climate we must make those challenges part of our brief. I came in here to participate a debate on the Estimates, not to have a ping pong row with the Minister or to listen to him have a go at people like Deputy Collins in regard to a previous Government.

I was shocked to hear the Minister speak about crime and make no mention of gangland crime, murders, bodies in rivers or widespread intimidation across the city. What planet is the Minister on?

Chairman

Sorry, Deputy, I would be interested in a discussion on that at a special meeting of the committee, but today I would like the Deputy to stick with the issue of the Estimates.

Deputy Finian McGrath

This relates to crime and the Estimates.

Chairman

Under Standing Orders, we are supposed to stick with the Estimates.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I will go back to page 2 to develop the point. The Minister stated in his submission that as of 31 October, some 6,972 persons have been arrested and 3,971 persons have been charged with burglary offences under Operation Fiacla. Why is this figure so high? The Minister said we should welcome this. I am shocked so many people have been arrested and charged. That is a very high figure and should be a cause of concern, not welcomed.

In regard to Operation Stilts, the Minister spoke about the ongoing Garda operation in the city centre to reduce antisocial behaviour and drug related crime, but he gave us no figures on that. Therefore, we do not know what is going on in this regard. However, I know from talking to people from Dublin and the city centre and from talking to members of the Minister's party that they are concerned about what is going on there. I would like to see more of the facts on this issue.

In regard to the crime statistics, the Minister said there was an overall reduction of 8% in the instances of crime in the 12 months to mid-2013. Many of us, who live in the real world, have come across an undercurrent that is not being addressed by senior management in the Garda in this regard, namely, the amount of unreported crime in some communities. I hinted at this earlier before the Chair reminded me to stick to the issue. There is widespread intimidation in some communities and much crime is not being reported. The Garda is not aware of this, but it is an issue that is raised regularly with back bench Deputies. How does the Minister intend to address this issue?

On page 5 of his submission, the Minister referred to the cost of providing the Go Safe road safety camera service and said the key objective was to reduce deaths. On the related issue of penalty points, many people have come to me with their concerns about this system and about whether it is being implemented fairly or whether some people are being let off penalty points while others are prosecuted.

The Minister mentioned clearing the backlog in regard to citizenship applications. What is the current figure for citizenship applications?

Chairman

I call the Minister to respond and ask him to stick with the Estimates.

Deputy Alan Shatter

I am very happy to stick with the Estimates. I will also stick to the factual information. Unfortunately, some Members of the House always want to dramatise and make alarmist comments that will unsettle the public, in the hope of getting a newspaper headline.

Deputy Finian McGrath

That is not true.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Deputy is aware the statistics on the criminal figures are published by the Central Statistics Office, not by my Department. The statistics are based on the accurate work and information available to that office and I learn of them when other people do. The information contained in the last annualised figures published shows a reduction of 8% in crime across the board.

I never minimise crime. The sad reality is that no matter how good the work of An Garda Síochána is, no matter how good are the laws we enact, no matter how carefully the courts hear cases and no matter how many people are sentenced to imprisonment, we will always have bad people. There are always bad people who carry out crime with no thought for the victims whose lives they affect. I will deal in facts, not in alarmist commentary. The facts are there has been a reduction in crime and the figures published by the CSO show this. The reduction has occurred across a broad range of areas.

The Deputy asked why so many people have been arrested under Operation Fiacla and why there has been a reduction in burglaries of 8.9%. The answer to that is this is happening because the Garda is engaged in targeted, smart policing. It is identifying individuals and gangs who are engaged in burglaries. Individuals who may live in one part of the country use our motorway system to travel to other parts of the country to carry out a series of burglaries in an area and then seek to disappear. Through significant connected thinking and a focused and targeted engagement the Garda is identifying people who so engage and is arresting them and bringing them before the courts and succeeding in prosecuting them. This is taking people repetitively engaged in criminal conduct out of society. This targeted policing is working.

I congratulate the Garda Commissioner and those working with him on these targeted operations. These operations are reducing the level of burglaries. Any burglary in any house is to be deplored. Individuals can be deeply affected when their privacy and the security of their home is invaded.

Nevertheless, even if what is stolen is of minor value, the theft creates a terrible feeling of insecurity in people's minds. The Garda is engaged in preventive action. If members examine the statistics for the force produced by the Central Statistics Office, they will find - under the heading of burglary - that there has been an 8.9% reduction. However, the overall reduction in the number of burglaries is actually larger than this. That is because the figure of 8.9% includes the offence of those arrested in possession of materials that can be used to commit a burglary. There is a particular category in this regard, but I do not have the exact figure for it in my possession. Although offences of this nature are categorised in the statistics under the overall heading of burglary, they are actually detected on foot of preventive interventions on the part of members of An Garda Síochána.

In addressing the issue of gangland crime in the past ten days the Garda Commissioner indicated that some 25 gangs were operating within the State. These gangs are being targeted by the Garda. However, it can only bring people before the courts to be prosecuted when it has adequate evidence that they have committed crimes. The targeting has been working. Consider how different Limerick is now in comparison to how it was five years ago. Again, I speak from memory, but I believe there are approximately 100 individuals in the prison system who were formerly engaged in gangland activity in Limerick. Included among these individuals are the leaders of the Limerick gangs. I am not pretending everything is hunky dory. Of course, that is not the case. There are individuals in gangs who are engaged in internecine warfare among themselves. Some appallingly barbaric murders have been committed in the gang warfare that is taking place. The Garda investigates these crimes and bring people before the courts. There are some in these gangs who have no respect for human life and no moral compass.

There was an increase of one in the number of homicides committed in the period to the end of June 2013. That increase was the result of the inclusion under this heading of the offence of dangerous driving causing death, rather than as a result of the type of murder committed in the past. I emphasise that I am not commenting on any recent case, but it must be remembered that not all homicides are committed by those in gangland. Unfortunately, some are committed as a result of domestic issues or rows that take place between individuals who are inebriated and have lost control of themselves.

Crime occurs for a range of reasons. I appeal to Deputy Niall Collins not to exaggerate in the language he uses in order to cause unnecessary alarm. I acknowledge that anyone affected by crime will be distressed, but it must be remembered that there is an extremely low rate of criminality per head of population in this state than is the case in most other EU member states. The Garda deserves praise because its members are doing an extraordinary job with great efficiency and in a very targeted way. Of course, there will be occasions on which those in the force will not get something right. None of us gets everything right all of the time. However, gardaí are doing an extraordinary job and some very bad individuals are serving lengthy sentences in the prison system as a result of their work. Society is better off as a result because the people to whom I refer have been removed from communities and are within the prison system.

In the context of citizenship applications, there is no major backlog. Some 70% of citizenship applications are determined within six months of being made. Some applications can take longer to process because there can be unexpected complications. For example, additional information may need to be sought or other matters may have to be dealt with or considered. When I entered office, it was taking between three and four years for most citizenship applications to be determined. As stated, 70% are now determined within six months. The remainder may take an additional few weeks to process. However, no one's citizenship application is taking two, three or four years to determine, as was the case previously. The Deputy may be intrigued to discover that there is great interest among some of our European Union colleagues in the citizenship ceremonies held here. The ceremonies have proved to be very successful and been welcomed by many people throughout the country. If the Deputy or other members have not had the opportunity to attend one of the ceremonies, I extend an invitation to them to do so in the near future. The ceremonies create a great sense of engagement with Ireland among those who are becoming citizens of it. Because of the fact that it previously took so long to process citizenship applications, many people did not apply. There are still considerable numbers who are seeking to become Irish citizens and we will continue to process their applications in an efficient and careful way. I pay tribute to the citizenship section of my Department which is dealing with the applications in a very appropriate manner.

On penalty points-----

Chairman

If I might intervene, the Committee of Public Accounts has been seized of that issue. As a result, under Standing Orders, we are not allowed to discuss it, with the exception of the Minister indicating the reason an additional €15 million is required. We cannot discuss any other aspect of the matter because the Committee of Public Accounts is dealing with it.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The main function of the GoSafe vans is to encourage people to drive carefully and not to speed and to detect those who are speeding. Those who operate the vans are being successful in that regard. There has been an increase in the number of fatalities among cyclists and motorcyclists. This is a problem. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, and I met representatives of the Road Safety Authority and the Garda in order to consider initiatives which might be taken in this matter. However, we are paying a supplement in the sense that the GoSafe vans do not bring in income that would be accrued by way of gardaí issuing tickets. People are now driving in a safer way because they know of the existence of the vans and are, therefore, reducing their speed. Obviously, there is a need to provide the funding required to meet the obligations that arise.

Deputy Niall Collins

Should the Minister pay for the security on his residence out of his own pocket? His predecessor, Dermot Ahern, did not have a member of An Garda Síochána detailed to his house and neither did the previous Minister, John O'Donoghue. Could the Minister comment on the matter?

Deputy Alan Shatter

I do not have a problem replying to the question. The expenditure incurred on the G8 was €3.8 million. We have an obligation to ensure proper security is provided. Some of the delegations to the G8 were staying on our side of the Border in the Republic. There was no question of us looking for a financial contribution from Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom Government or the PSNI towards that. It would not have been appropriate. There is constant co-operation on security issues between ourselves and the PSNI. We have a mutual interest in maintaining proper policing on the island of Ireland. It would have been out of place.

In terms of the issue the Deputy raised, I made it very clear when I was asked the question that in no circumstances would I condone any attack on any former Taoiseach, Minister or a current Member of either House, be they on the Government side or on the Opposition side. The Deputy seems to be unaware of the fact that the former Taoiseach does have security at his home. As far as I know that is the case. I am open to correction if I am wrong but as far as I know the former Taoiseach has security provided by An Garda Síochána at his home. The security advice from the Garda Síochána is that he should have such security. I totally respect that. I take no issue with it and never commented on it. The security advice I, the Taoiseach and Tánaiste get is that we should have security on our homes. There was a burglary event in my home. I do not make a complaint about it. People across the country are affected by burglaries. As the Deputy should be aware, I deal on a daily basis with serious issues related to gangland crime, subversive activity and those who are trying to reignite the war in Northern Ireland. I take advice from the Garda Síochána on that, as I do on the former Taoiseach.

The issue that arose and on which I commented was an event reported in the newspapers relating to the former Taoiseach. There was a report in a newspaper – I cannot remember which one – that the attack was as a consequence of the former Taoiseach, Mr. Ahern, not having a Garda driver and that if he had been provided with one the event would not have happened. I remarked that when the Government came into office it made the decision that former taoisigh would not have Garda drivers. No Minister in the current Government, other than the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and I as Minister for Justice and Equality has a Garda driver. The security advice is that we should have. I said that if the former Taoiseach required to be driven that is something he could afford to pay for himself, if for some security reason he believed he needed a driver. That was the issue I was addressing.

The electorate made a decision about issues affecting the previous Government. I would not wish to see any former member of that Government or previous Governments the object of physical assault by anybody. We live in a democracy and it is not appropriate that anyone would be treated that way. In case the Deputy has any doubt about it, I am very happy to so address the matter. They are the two issues he raised.

I did not reply to an issue that, in fairness, was raised by Deputy Finian McGrath. Of course I absolutely and totally accept that it is the job of the Opposition to ask questions on Estimates. It would be unfortunate if we had a Parliament where such questions were not raised. It is necessary to do so in a manner that is accurate and truthful and to suggest that there was something extraordinarily unusual in a Minister for Justice and Equality dealing with a Supplementary Estimate of this nature was not an accurate presentation of the facts. As I pointed out in my presentation, because of the nature of the justice area – Deputy O’Brien referred to the broad areas it covers – there will always be some areas where some of the allocated spend is not incurred. No one is suggesting one should spend money unnecessarily. There will be other areas where because of events, additional expenditure is required. In 2007 there was a Supplementary Estimate and in the following years there were financial readjustments with Supplementary Estimates from the Department of Justice and Equality. The suggestion that we were doing something exceptionally unusual today is not accurate. Of course it is right that people ask questions. I thank Deputies for their courtesy in doing so. We have dealt with some areas that are important. It is right that we engage in this procedure.

Chairman

I thank the Minister. I have two brief questions myself. Although I am not a member of the Opposition I am entitled to ask questions about the Estimates. One question relates to the €1 million extra for station services, mainly heating and electricity costs and others. Is there a policy in the Department of Justice and Equality with respect to energy conservation? Is there any one person or group of people with such a responsibility? Has the installation of combined heat and power plants in prisons been considered? I am told it would generate – pardon the pun – huge savings.

A total of €155,000 relates to the Garda Reserve. What was the purpose of the funding, as no detail is given?

Deputy Alan Shatter

The funding for the Garda Reserve related to the additional number that came into the force during the year. We continue to recruit the Garda Reserve and they receive what is really an honorarium. They get €1,200 per annum for participating in the Garda Reserve. There were a number of recruits during the course of the year. I attended two graduation ceremonies.

I am aware you have a particular interest in heating, Chairman, on which we have had previous discussions in the committee, in particular in regard to Cork Prison. The issue is being examined as to its feasibility. In the context of using fuel efficiently, it is correct that there is not someone in my Department who is specifically seconded to deal with the issue but the various agencies have an obligation to use resources wisely. I would expect there is focus on the issue and I am happy to follow it up. There is a degree of wisdom in ensuring that within, for example, the Garda Síochána or the Prison Service and other agencies an individual should have responsibility to ensure that we have the best and most resource-efficient approach to heating, lighting and other matters of that nature.

Select Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality debate - Wednesday, 20 Nov 2013

Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Supplementary)

Select Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality debate -
Wednesday, 20 Nov 2013