Skip to main content
Normal View

SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 27 Mar 2002

Vol. 3 No. 10

Bilateral Agreements: Motions.

The next portion of the meeting concerns bilateral agreements with the Governments of the Republic of Poland, the Republic of Bulgaria and the Federal Republic of Nigeria. The following proposals were referred to the committee:

"That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the Republic of Poland on transferring and re-admitting persons who remain in the territory of their states without authorisation, done at Warsaw on 12 May 2001 and laid before Dáil Éireann on 25 May 2001."

"That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the Republic of Bulgaria regarding the re-admission of their citizens and third country citizens illegally residing in the territories of their respective states, done at Dublin on 31 January 2002 and laid before Dáil Éireann on 6 February 2002."

"That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the Federal Republic of Nigeria on immigration matters, done at Ajuba on 29 August, 2001 and laid before Dáil Éireann on 26 October 2001."

I invite the Minister of State to make an opening statement.

Subject to Deputy Howlin's and the Minister of State's agreement, can we take her script as read and let it form part of the minutes allowing us to raise appropriate questions now so as to save time?

I understand it cannot form part of the record but can be taken as read.

I want it to form part of the record.

With respect to forming part of the record, would it have to be read?

We can submit documentation to form part of the record under Standing Orders of the House.

The Editor of Debates has confirmed that unless it is read out in public, it cannot be recorded in the minutes.

It is too late in this Dáil to worry about that. It is not the Editor of Debates who has to sit at lengthy meetings under the pressure that we know what the issues are and what the Minister of State will say. We should report back to the Editor of Debates on the basis that we order the rules of the House, not him. In the Dáil Chamber where a Minister reads half a reply to a Dáil question, it appears in the Official Report in its entirety. I cannot see the reason a similar rule cannot apply to committees. However, if that is the case, the Minister of State should read the script.

I am advised that it can be appended to the minutes as agreed.

Will that allow it to form part of the record?

What is the difference between that and reading it into the record? I know Deputy Shatter does not want to listen to me, but I will not take umbrage.

I am happy to listen to the Minister of State, but I am trying to avoid us——

For the purposes of the record, the text will not be reproduced unless it is read out in public session.

Very well, let it be read.

I will attempt to read it quickly.

I am grateful to the committee for making time available to discuss the terms of these three agreements on immigration readmission matters with Poland, the Federal Republic of Nigeria and Bulgaria. The Minister signed the agreement with Poland in Warsaw on 12 May 2001, with the Federal Republic of Nigeria in Abuja on 29 August 2001 and with Bulgaria in Dublin on 31 January this year. Readmission agreements of this type are a significant feature of international co-operation in the field of immigration. A readmission and return policy is recognised internationally as an integral and vital element in the fight against illegal immigration.

At the global consultations on international protection, ongoing at present under the auspices of the UNHCR to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Geneva Convention relating to the status of refugees, it has been recognised that the early return to their country of origin of persons who, following a fair and efficient asylum procedure, have been determined not to be in need of international protection is important. Such an approach can contribute to discouraging irregular migratory movements both from countries of origin and transit countries. Accordingly, returns are, not only part of a viable migration policy, but also important for the maintenance of the institution of asylum and for credibility and efficiency of asylum systems. In this regard, the UNHCR has made it clear that it is ready to support states in their efforts to return asylum applicants who are found not to be in need of international protection, provided that the involvement of that organisation is fully consistent with its humanitarian mandate to protect refugees. To date, some 300 readmission agreements have been concluded internationally, of which about 250 are between EU member states and the main source countries of illegal immigrants. Discussions are ongoing at EU level to conclude readmission agreements with Russia, Sri Lanka and Morocco.

The importance of such agreements was also recognised at EU level when, on 30 November 1994, the Council adopted a specimen bilateral readmission agreement which it recommended should be used by member states as a basis for negotiation with third countries on the conclusion of such agreements. The principal elements of the agreements before the committee today are based very much on the EU specimen text.

It is important to clarify the exact nature and purpose of immigration readmission agreements of the type before the committee today. Rather than being directly connected with the actual decision to repatriate persons, agreements of this type are intended, primarily, to enhance the deportation process by providing a structured framework within which persons who do not or no longer satisfy the conditions in force for entry or residence on the territory of one contracting party can be returned to the other contracting party. Accordingly, readmission agreements, in so far as they deal with the mechanism for the return of persons to their countries of origin, are logistical in nature and set out the procedures which must be complied with when a person is being returned. The actual decision to deport or return a person to his or her country of origin is something totally separate. This has its foundation in a comprehensive legislative base and a series of strict safeguards, both legislative and judicial, all of which must be complied with before the mechanisms provided by the agreements actually kick into place.

In the case of asylum applicants whose applications for refugee status are unsuccessful, before final decisions are taken on such applications, detailed inquiries are carried out by both the Refugee Applications Commissioner and the Refugee Appeals Tribunal, both at first instance and at the appeals stage, on the basis of comprehensive country of origin information which is updated on an ongoing basis to determine whether an applicant for asylum has a well founded fear of persecution having regard to the definition of "refugee" in section 2 of the Refugee Act, 1996. It is open to an applicant, or his or her legal representative, to provide additional or alternative country of origin information to assist the Refugee Applications Commissioner, the Refugee Appeals Tribunal or the Minister in this decision making process. All applicants are also entitled to a personal interview at first instance and, in substantive cases, an oral appeals hearing.

The Immigration Act, 1999, also sets out in a transparent way the principles, powers and procedures governing the deportation process. These include a requirement that the person be given a 15 day period within which to make representations as to a reason a deportation order should not be made. Even if representations are not made, the Minister is required to have regard to a range of 11 different factors, including humanitarian considerations, in determining whether a deportation order should be made. The making of a deportation order is subject to section 5 of the Refugee Act, 1996, which absolutely forbids the sending of a person "in any manner whatsoever" to a place where the life or freedom of the person would be threatened on account of that person's race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. This overarching principle is the bedrock of Ireland's repatriation framework and cannot be circumvented by the provisions of any readmission agreement to which the State becomes a party. Consequently, the procedures in the three agreements before the committee today cannot be invoked in an individual case in advance of the foregoing provisions of national legislation being applied. It is also open to a person who is not satisfied with the manner in which national legislative provisions have been applied to challenge the validity of any deportation order made by way of an application for judicial review. Legal aid is available for this purpose.

Nigeria represented the largest source country for asylum seekers in Ireland in 2000 and 2001. Of the 10,938 persons who sought asylum in the State in 2000, 3,404, or 31.1%, were from Nigeria. For 2001, there were 10,325 asylum applicants, of whom 33.5%, or 3,461, were Nigerians. Of the 10,052 Nigerian asylum applications made in 29 industrialised countries in 2001, including Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, the USA and Germany, some 3,461 were lodged in Ireland, which represents nearly 35% of the total number of such applications in that period. Ireland was also by far the highest recipient of asylum seekers from Nigeria in the European Union in 2001. So far this year, of the 2,414 asylum applications received, some 812 have been made by Nigerian nationals.

In the case of Poland, some 242 applications for asylum were received in 2000 and 242 applications in 2001. A total of 153 applications for asylum were received in 2000 and 93 in 2001 from Bulgarian nationals.

As the Minister did on many previous occasions, I emphasise the Government's continued commitment to meeting the State's obligations under the 1951 Geneva Convention and 1967 protocol on the status of refugees, the main international legal instruments aimed at the protection of refugees. As the committee will be aware, in line with our obligations under the convention and protocol, we have a fair, transparent and independent process in place for dealing with asylum applications. Considerable progress has been made in dealing with applications since the Minister established the Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner and the Refugee Appeals Tribunal, and the allocation of significant additional resources to both the asylum and immigration processes.

Having gone through an independent determination process which includes legal assistance, only a very small number of Nigerian, Polish and Bulgarian nationals who claim asylum in the State are found to be in need of refugee protection afforded by the 1951 Geneva Convention. For example, in 2000, of 2,188 Nigerian asylum applications determined, 27 applicants were granted refugee status. In 2001, of 2,186 Nigerian applications determined, 71 applicants were granted refugee status. Of asylum applications from Polish nationals processed, one was granted refugee status in 2000 while eight received such status in 2001. No protection was granted to Bulgarian nationals applying for asylum refugee status in 2000. A total of 16 received such status in 2001. These statistics clearly indicate that the vast majority of nationals from the three countries covered by the agreements who claim refugee status in the State are found not to be in need of refugee protection.

I will outline the principal features of the agreements, the preamble to which sets out their main objectives which include combating illegal immigration on a reciprocal basis and facilitating the readmission of persons residing illegally in the territories of the contracting parties. TheNigerian agreement covers nationals of the contracting parties only, whereas those with Poland and Bulgaria also make provision for the return of non-nationals and the transit of persons through either of the contracting parties for the purpose of return to a third country.

The agreements include procedures to be utilised in circumstances where documentary proof of citizenship is available and unavailable. Article 2 of the Polish and Bulgarian agreements and Article III of the Nigerian agreement provide for the readmission of citizens of the contracting parties not eligible for entry or residence in the requesting state. Article 3 of the Polish and Bulgarian agreements and Article V of the Nigerian agreement set out the type of documentary evidence which can be utilised in order to prove citizenship. If passports are not available - this is often the case in these situations - a wide range of other documentation can be used. In addition, prima facie evidence of citizenship can be furnished by, for example, statements made by witnesses or the person to be returned. Where documentary evidence of citizenship is not available, the agreements provide for the persons concerned to be interviewed by the relevant diplomatic missions of the contracting parties in order to establish citizenship. In the case of the agreement with the Federal Republic of Nigeria, strict time limits are contained in Article VI for the carrying out of such interviews, decisions and the issue of the necessary travel documents required because of the lack of passports.

Article 5 of the Polish agreement and Article 4 of the Bulgarian agreement also make provision for the repatriation of third country nationals who arrived in one contracting party directly from the other. Article 8 of the Polish agreement and Article 7 of the Bulgarian agreement also allow third country nationals to pass through the territory of a contracting party in transit for the purpose of returning to a third country. It is envisaged that the latter provisions will be rarely utilised.

All the agreements provide that the requesting state must readmit a person who has been returned through the mechanisms provided by the agreements where it is subsequently established that the person concerned is not a national of the state concerned. Strict protection provisions are contained in Article 9 of the Polish text, Article 10 of the Bulgarian text and Article XVII of the Nigerian agreement both in relation to the type of data which can be transmitted in support of a readmission request and in relation to the use to which that information can be put.

In the case of the agreement with the Federal Republic of Nigeria, Article XVIII deals with the provision of technical assistance and training in immigration matters for Nigerian immigration and consular officials. It also provides for the continuation of the State's significant programme of co-operation with Nigeria focusing on basic needs and poverty reduction under the aegis of Ireland Aid. Within the limits of the existing NGO co-financing scheme, we have expressed a readiness to consider enhancing this programme, including areas such as HIV-AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases and skills acquisition to assist people living in poverty in Nigeria which can include those who have returned to that country.

There is no hidden agenda behind this provision. I totally reject reports that the State has promised large amounts of development aid to the Nigerian authorities to encourage them to sign this agreement. Ireland's development co-operation assistance with Nigeria is channelled entirely through NGOs and missionary groups. Ireland Aid is very conscious of the problem of HIV-AIDS and its effects on all aspects of development and ready to assist in this area through the work of NGOs and missionaries. Any applications submitted in this area or for skills training initiatives would have to satisfy normal eligibility criteria.

All the Governments with which we have concluded these texts approached the discussions in a very constructive manner and a spirit of co-operation. We have all looked on the agreements as a means both of developing co-operation in the area of illegal migration and also as providing a structured framework for the return of nationals not eligible for entry or residence in one of the contracting parties.

Article XIX of the Nigerian agreement provides for the establishment of a high official level co-ordinating committee to ensure its effective implementation. I welcome the establishment of this committee as, in addition to the structured framework which the agreement in general provides for repatriations, the committee will provide a forum to allow particular difficulties in relation to the smooth functioning of the agreement, including both legal and illegal immigration aspects, to be resolved with a view to the improvement of bilateral co-operation on immigration matters generally between Nigeria and Ireland. Among its functions will be to examine ways in which increased opportunities for legal access to the Irish labour market by Nigerian nationals can be developed.

Article XX of the Nigerian text contains strong human rights guarantees for the treatment of persons being repatriated. All the agreements contain provisions dealing with dispute resolution, costs, amendments, entry into force and implementation and the circumstances in which they can be terminated.

I express my appreciation to the Nigerian, Polish and Bulgarian authorities for their co-operation in concluding the agreements. Readmission agreements are a growing feature of co-operation between states in immigration matters. There are a large number of reasons such agreements are helpful. When large numbers of illegal immigrants and unsuccessful asylum applicants reside on the territory of any state, agreements such as these can facilitate their readmission to their countries of origin on the basis of reciprocityand unambiguous contractual obligation. Readmission becomes a particularly difficult and time consuming problem when illegal immigrants destroy their passports or other identity papers - which is often the case in Ireland - making it difficult to establish their nationality or country of origin. A readmission agreement can minimise these difficulties by specifying the formalities required and simplifying them in order to make the process of readmission more expeditious.

The agreements are only part of a range of significant initiatives which the Minister has taken to deal with the problem of illegal immigration which undermines the integrity of our immigration and asylum system, the primary aim of which must be to identify and protect genuine refugees. The State is not alone in recognising the importance of agreements such as this. Most recently, the Justice and Home Affairs Council also adopted a proposal for a comprehensive action plan to combat illegal immigration and trafficking of human beings in the European Union in which the importance of establishing a joint approach between EU member states for the purposes of implementing return measures is recognised. The European Commission is expected to publish a Green Paper analysing possible measures and courses of action to flesh out a Community return policy in the near future.

While fully recognising Ireland's international obligations to asylum seekers, we must also ensure the integrity of our asylum process and the refugee concept are protected as well as public confidence in the system generally. Illegal immigration undermines the integrity of our immigration and asylum system, the primary aim of which must be to identify and protect genuine refugees. It is absolutely essential, therefore, if we are to underline this integrity, that a structured framework is in place to ensure those residing illegally in the State are returned to their country of origin. I have no doubt that the agreements, subject to the necessary protections, particularly in relation to refoulement, which we have in place, will contribute in a very positive manner to this objective.

I do not have any difficulties with the agreements being proposed in relation to Poland and Bulgaria. There are noteworthy differences between them and the agreement with Nigeria. Inherent in the agreement with Nigeria lies a degree of ministerial unease regarding certain positions taken within it. I have a difficulty with this.

According to the figures the Minister of State gave us for 2000, of 2,188 Nigerian asylum applications determined 27 applicants were granted refugee status. I presume they were granted such status at first instance. How many of the remaining applicants still have appeals waiting to be determined and how many have been granted or denied refugee status on appeal? A total of 71 applicants were granted such status in 2001. Were they all granted this status at first instance or were some appellants? Will the Minister of State clarify how many Nigerian applicants who were denied refugee status in either 2000 or 2001, but who have gone through the initial and appeal systems, are being allowed to stay on humanitarian grounds? How many await deportation or have had deportation orders served on them? How many does the Minister of State anticipate will have such orders served on them? Will she indicate, from research her Department has done as opposed to street myth, the reason so manyNigerians are coming to Ireland seeking political asylum? Are there hard reasons this is happening? It is extraordinary that of any European Union country we seem to have the highest number of Nigerian applicants for asylum. What research has been done of this matter?

My concern with the agreement is that there are major difficulties within Nigeria. There have been major conflicts and many people have lost their lives in riots. There are allegations that the regime in power violates human rights on a regular basis and that citizens are subject to torture. Fundamentalist Muslim laws are being applied in certain parts of the country where it is regarded as acceptable to stone to death women who have been raped and are pregnant. We all know of the recent case where a woman, pregnant as a consequence of rape, was at risk of being stoned to death and on appeal the initial decision was set aside.

However, there was no certainty that this would happen. I have no idea to what extent the international outcry about the case influenced the decision, but Nigeria seems to be a country in which human rights are not respected in the manner we expect them to be either here or in the rest of Europe. I have very profound concerns about the agreement which could result in our returning to Nigeria individuals genuinely at risk.

I am aware that there are specific provisions contained in the agreement which differentiate it from the other two. Perhaps there is even some ministerial unease about this. It was not deemed necessary that human rights guarantees should be contained in the agreements with Poland and Bulgaria. I am not suggesting that there is a need for such guarantees but wonder what value they have. The human rights guarantees contained in Article 20 state nationals of one contracting state should not be subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment in the other contracting states, nor should undue force, torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment be used in the repatriation of persons under the agreement. Let us assume for one minute that we will not torture anybody or subject them to inhuman treatment. The concern is to what extent can we be sure that Nigerians being repatriated to Nigeria will not subsequently be ill-treated.

There are undertakings given under this article about the contracting parties notifying the embassy of the other party of the arrest of its nationals. This does not address the issue. Each contracting party also undertakes not to use undue force, torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment in the repatriation of the arrested person. Presumably this means we cannot use them. It does not state what will happen to the arrested person we return to Nigeria. Contracting parties also undertake to allow officials of the embassy of the other contracting party unrestrained access to visit and discuss privately with the nationals of that contracting party in its custody, subject to the right of the detained person to refuse consular services. We can, therefore, allow a visit by the Nigerian ambassador to someone we are holding in our prisons.

Contracting parties also undertake, in repatriating illegal immigrants, to allow the accredited personnel of the competent authorities of the receiving state adequate opportunity to verify and ascertain the identity of the illegal immigrant. I am not satisfied that there is anything in this which would allow us to even monitor or ascertain the position should we return or repatriate to Nigeria individuals who protest that they are at risk, and ascertain at a later stage whether their human rights have been violated, whether they have been tortured or whether the Nigerian regime or the administration of the local state within which they live subjects them to inhuman or degrading conduct or violates their human rights. It seems that in the context of the application of human rights guarantees we are more concerned with ensuring we behave properly in extraditing or repatriating people to Nigeria than with ensuring the Nigerian authorities deal with the people returned to them in an appropriate way and protect their human rights.

I might be told that we cannot do this because it would violate Nigeria's sovereignty. However, in the context of this State, if we commence operating an agreement whereby we will repatriate possibly thousands of people, we have a duty to ensure their rights are not violated, and that should we discover that a single person we have repatriated has had his or her human rights violated, been tortured or lost his or her life in Nigeria, the agreement will be terminated and cease to operate. I am not remotely convinced that it contains within it the protections necessary to facilitate its operation. I am not satisfied that we should have such an agreement with the current Administration in Nigeria in any case.

I recognise there are concerns about the large influx from Nigeria to this State claiming political asylum. There is a perception, rightly or wrongly, that many of them are simply economic migrants and that there are no reasons relating to the asylum regime which warrant their being allowed to remain here. I am conscious that this is a view. I am not sure of the extent to which it has been adequately researched or dealt with. If that is the case, there is the issue of our allowing a reasonable number of economic migrants from the Third World, including Nigeria, to come here annually to take up employment available in the State.

I have huge concerns about the agreement which is premature. I am not satisfied that people genuinely at risk will be protected by it. I am concerned that people will be returned to Nigeria who should not be and that as a consequence people will be tortured and lives lost. In principle, I am opposed to the agreement as presented.

It will not surprise the Chair if I also concentrate my remarks on the Nigerian agreement. I agree with a number of the points made by Deputy Shatter and will spend no more time going over that ground again except to amplify one or two. The first is that, ironically, the agreement was signed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform while on his way to the world conference against racism in South Africa. Before he arrived in Durban to deliver a speech on Ireland's human rights regime, it's openness and adherence to international best practice, he stopped off in Abuja to meet President Obasanjo to sign the agreement. The credentials of the state of Nigeria, or of its current regime, would certainly not accord with the highest international standards on human rights.

I want to make a number of points, which I will do in a structured way in order that the Minister of State can note them. The first is that I have never heard a bilateral justice arrangement of this sort announced in tandem with an aid package. I ask a very direct and simple question. On what basis does the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform have any hand, act or say in bilateral aid supports which are, by law, a matter for his colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs? Why and how do accords between countries of this nature get mixed up in a bilateral aid programme? I noted the Minister of State's pre-emptive strike, but it is not good enough to say there is no connection, to say, like the Queen of Hearts "I say it, therefore it is fact". The reality is that it is most unusual for an aid support package to be announced by a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the same statement as an agreement of this nature. We need some sort of explanation as to the reason that was done.

My second point relates to section 5 of the Refugee Act, 1996 which states, as the Minister of State has accurately quoted, that no deportation order can be made where there is a threat to the life or freedom of the person or where that life or freedom would be threatened on account of the person's race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion. Is the Minister of State asserting that anybody can be repatriated to Nigeria in the context of this section? If the question is unclear, I will restate it. It is my contention that with the regime which operates in Nigeria, some parts of which, as Deputy Shatter has already very graphically indicated, apply Sharia law, there is an absolute threat to a person on one of the bases mentioned.

My third question is an amplification of Deputy Shatter's comment. The Minister of State gave very clear figures for the numbers of Nigerians who have arrived in the State looking for asylum. It seems an inordinate proportion of the total are coming either from the developed world or EU countries in particular. I have a number of statistical questions. What do we know about the ethnic background of those arriving? Are they predominantly of one ethnic or social group within Nigeria? Are they predominantly men or women, or evenly balanced? Are they from a particular tribe? Has there been any objective analysis by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform of the reasons they arrive in Ireland? If the Department has not undertaken an objective analysis, does it propose to do so? Since there are no direct air links between Nigeria and Ireland, why does such a disproportionate number ofNigerians arrive here? The majority must have transited from another EU country.

How many Nigerian nationals have been deported in each of the last three years? What practical measures will the Department use to determine the nationality of asylum seekers with no documentation who refuse to declare their nationality? I watched a very compelling programme about asylum matters recently on British television which showed African people believe there is a view in the developed world that Africa is almost one country. In this country the attitude is that a black person must be Nigerian. Therefore, such a person will be deported to Nigeria. In my constituency I have met citizens of Gabon, Congo and various other African countries.

What practical measures will the Department use to deport somebody? This is a big issue in the case of those who will resist being put on a plane. Obviously, international airlines have heightened fears of having difficulty on aeroplanes after the events of 11 September. Are there practical proposals to use restraint or sedation? What will happen if people simply refuse to get on an aeroplane?

Article XIX of the agreement before us states that among the functions of the high official level co-ordinating committee to be established will be to examine ways in which increased opportunities for legal access to the Irish labour market by Nigerian nationals can be developed. What exactly does this mean? Is it the intention of the Government in the context of Article XIX of the Nigerian agreement to facilitate some kind of green card system to allow Nigerian citizens to work here? If not, what is the intent of that clause?

I will deal first with the statistical questions posed by Deputies Shatter and Howlin. The numbers of applications determined at first stage, appeal stage, etc. and the deportations——

Does the Minister of State have the figures in a table?

They are on different pages. As there are only 27 figures, it is easy enough to go through them.

It would be useful if the Minister of State could circulate them to us later as well as giving them verbally now.

I can do that. I have the figures for the past two years. I know Deputy Howlin asked for the figures for the last three. In 2000 some 1,569 applications were determined, of which 27 were granted, three at first stage and 24 at appeal stage out of 619 appeals. In 2001 there were 1,658 applications, of which 27 were granted at first stage. There were 528 appeals, of which 44 were granted giving a total of 71. The Deputy was only interested in the statistics relating to Nigeria. From November 1999 to 2 March 2002, 676 people of all nationalities were deported, of which 24 were from Nigeria. There were 121 from Poland and 27 from Bulgaria.

Some 24 Nigerians have been deported. What about the balance, whose applications have been determined through appeal as not qualifying for asylum?

The number of deportation orders made for Nigerians was 873. The number of deportations was 24. The number of deportation orders subject to judicial review is 41. The number of Nigerian nationals evading deportation is 630.

That shows a working system.

The number of deportations in the process of being arranged is 43.

I do not understand that. Some 630 Nigerians are——

Some 630 Nigerian nationals have had deportation orders made against them but——

They are evading deportation.

Do the authorities not know where they are?

They are evading the orders.

What does that mean? We do not know where they are in the State.

We do not know that or even if they are in the State. They may have left.

As many as 630?

Yes. The number of deportations in the process of being arranged is 43. The number notified to attend for the purpose of documenting their removal is six. The number not at their last known address is six.

There are a further 624.

The number of orders revoked or in the process of being revoked is 117. The number who left the State that we know of——

That is the number of deportation orders revoked or being revoked.

On what basis are they being revoked?

They are in addition to the 630.

What is being revoked?

Their deportation orders.

Then they must be included as part of the total for deportation orders.

They form part of the total of 873.

Why are they being revoked?

Some have Irish born children; others are on marriage.

How much time elapses between issuing and executing a deportation order?

About nine months, but, seriously, a few weeks if we can find them.

The average length of a judicial review would be nine months.

The number who left the State that we know of before the order could be enforced was six. The number granted temporary leave to remain in the State, not including the parents of Irish born children or on marriage to Irish nationals——

It does include them.

No, those specifically allowed on humanitarian grounds to remain——

Are people entitled to stay?

The numbers I am about to give refer only to humanitarian leave. There are seven Nigerians, two Poles and seven Bulgarians.

Other statistical questions were asked about tribes. There are about 250 tribes in Nigeria. Ireland is particularly popular with the Yoruba and Hausa tribes.

There are certain parts of Nigeria which are subject to unrest. Are we getting people from parts of Nigeria that have particular problems?

The Yoruba are mostly in the south while the Hausa are more to the north. From our information, the two reasons that Nigerians are coming to Ireland as opposed to other countries - although this does not count for the US and Australia - are economic and linguistic.

How do economic reasons apply?

Because we have a vibrant economy.

Is it better than the German or French economy?

We also speak English.

Of those coming here, have we any idea how many transited through the United Kingdom?

They will not tell us because under the Dublin Convention they would then have to go back.

If they are in transit, Ireland might be the first port of entry.

We do not know.

Almost all of them must have transited through the UK.

There are no direct flights. They have to come from somewhere.

Unless they come on the boat from France.

I do not have those statistics to hand.

It is very interesting.

All European countries, the EU and the Irish Government recognise the huge progress being made in the human rights situation in Nigeria since President Obasanjo took over in May 1999. Nigeria is now a democratic federal republic. There have been elections and military rule is gone. President Obasanjo has established a human rights violations investigation commission to investigate major human rights abuses.

That will be a busy little outfit.

Nigeria has also acceded to a number of international conventions, including the 1951 Geneva Convention relating to the status of refugees, and protocols. The EU partners and other members of the international community are constantly monitoring Nigeria. The EU has adopted a common position on Nigeria and wants to maintain consistent, constructive dealings with it. Nigeria is also about to begin political dialogue with the EU.

Are there not still concerns about human rights in Nigeria?

It is important that every individual case is fully investigated here, as an applicant goes through the RAC and RAT to find out whether they are at risk and whether there are dangers for them as individuals. We have no hard evidence to suggest that anybody who has been deported has been subject to any ill treatment or——

They did not write back.

What are we doing to monitor that?

The monitoring is through the embassy reports, UN reports and EU reports. However, individual cases are not followed up.

So we do not know what is happening to individuals.

We know something from NGOs and missionaries. We are very active on the ground.

However, on an organised basis there is not, as part of this agreement, a committee representing this State and the Nigerian state where complaints about human rights abuses can be made by people repatriated to Nigeria.

No, but we would not send them if we had any suspicion that they would be ill-treated. That would be part of the deportation order and section 5, as I and Deputy Howlin read out. Anybody who feels they are subject to ill treatment when they get there could take it up with the Irish Embassy there. Sharia law is a particular religious and legal practice but if we have any indication of anybody suffering ill treatment those are grounds for that person to get asylum in this country. That would be investigated before anybody is sent back. However, there is no specific committee which looks at each individual case when people go back. Our information is based on NGOs, missionaries, embassy reports and UN reports.

The co-ordinating committee of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in relation to Nigeria is investigating the availability of work permits but there is no proposal on the table such as a green card or anything like that.

Is it envisaged that there will be a preferential arrangement for Nigerian nationals to apply for employment here?

No. The basis for giving more permits is skills-based in the Irish system. It will depend on the skills of applicants.

Article XIX of the text says that there are ways by which "increased opportunities for legal access to the Irish labour market byNigerian nationals can be developed." That looks like a preferential agreement for Nigerian nationals. Is that not the case?

We will explore finding agreement given the interest that exists in coming to this country. We will facilitate people with genuine skills who are interested in coming to work here as opposed to using a process——

Has it been explored since last August when the Minister signed the agreement?

No, the committee will be set up on foot of this.

It has not been set up on foot of this.

Ireland has a significant bilateral aid programme for Nigeria administered by the Department of Foreign Affairs. There is absolutely no link between——

Is it a coincidence that it was announced by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform?

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was also visiting Nigeria and the Department of Foreign Affairs was involved. It is appropriate that the person on the ground would make announcements. Despite that, there is no connection between the agreement and the aid. The amount of aid to Nigeria was €4.5 million between 1997 and 2001. It has been spent and we are looking to see what more can be done, particularly in relation to the HIV-AIDS problem and skills etc. There is no link.

I do not have specific figures on the gender mix but there is a fair mix between male and female. Determining the nationality of applicants who have no papers is mostly done by way of interview and assessment of information, contacts, stories etc. It can sometimes be checked at embassy level but is largely based on the interview here.

What sort of skills do the interviewers have in terms of knowing the ethnic or tribal makeup of applicant states?

There is an interesting scheme for all interviewers.

Does it include a detailed course on ethnicity?

It is done by the UNHCR.

That is not what I am asking. Does the training programme include a detailed course in ethnicity and understanding tribal backgrounds to help identify nationality?

Does the Deputy mean one African nationality over another as opposed to one tribe?

The training would help interviewers to decide whether somebody is telling the truth or not.

They could work here very effectively as a type of truthseer.

I have been advised that the training is partly based on ethnicity. They are being trained to tell whether or not someone's story holds up.

Are there further questions?

Physical force is not used to get someone to leave the country.

Is the Minister of State saying that if people will not leave, they are not forced to do so?

Force will certainly not be used in such circumstances.

Is that why we have only deported 24 such people?

A large number of them cannot be found.

What happens if someone simply says "I am not going"?

There have been one or two such cases. Newspapers reported that airlines refused to carry passengers in such circumstances.

What does the Department do then?

We do not use physical force.

What does the Department do?

We try to find another means of removing such people from the country, rather than by aircraft.

The Government is prepared to row them to Nigeria.

They are thrown off Dún Laoghaire pier in the hope that they will float.

It is a long swim to Nigeria.

I am serious. What does the Department do if people say they will not get on board an aeroplane?

That has not happened to any great extent and force is certainly not used.

That does not explain anything. It is the sort of reply one gets to a written parliamentary question.

It has rarely arisen.

If pressed, it is decided from above.

Are there any further questions?

May I propose that the committee denies its support for this proposal and makes a recommendation to the Dáil accordingly?

I agree with the Deputy in relation to the Nigerian agreement.

My proposal relates only to the Nigerian agreement. I will support the other two proposals if they are taken formally.

Can I ask Deputy Howlin to outline the basis on which he proposes to deny support? Deputy Shatter indicated at the beginning that he does not support the Nigerian agreement, but I wonder if Deputy Howlin will clarify his position.

My fundamental belief is that deportation under the terms of the agreement with Nigeria flies in the face of section 5 of the Refugee Act, 1996.

Does the Deputy not accept the validity of this proposal, given that a thorough investigation of the application takes place in each case before a decision is taken? This country's system is open and transparent and allows for appeal.

I am not convinced that the outcomes of deportations to Nigeria are adequately monitored. I accept that there is scant evidence, as there have only been 24 deportations of Nigerian citizens, but better safeguards are needed in the event of the wholesale deportation of thousands of such people. The proposals of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform are not adequate.

There is no possibility of the deportation of thousands of people based on available evidence. We are talking about very limited numbers following stringent procedures.

There have been over 2,000 applications in each of the last two years. I am not satisfied that we have put in place structures to ensure we can find out how well deportees are treated when they return to Nigeria. Our efforts in that area have been inadequate in the context of the problems in Nigeria, which remain despite the establishment of a new administration there.

I am advised, notwithstanding confirmation of consideration of the motion being sent to the Dáil, that a letter referring to the reservations of the committee may be sent to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and to the Clerk of the Dáil, by agreement. This committee is empowered only to consider the motion, which it has done.

Is the Chair suggesting that I cannot move a motion to voice the reservations of certain members of the committee?

Such a motion can be agreed and referred to in the letter, but it will not affect the fact that the committee has considered the motion.

A letter to whom?

A letter may be sent to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and to the Clerk of the Dáil, by agreement.

What does this have to do with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?

Nothing at all.

A motion could be before the Dáil tomorrow.

Yes, but it will be taken without debate.

It is on tomorrow's Order Paper.

There is no point in the committee considering the motion if it cannot express its view.

The motion referring this motion to this committee refers only to the duty of the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, in accordance with paragraph 1(a)(3) of its orders of reference, to send a message to the Dáil not later than 28 March 2002 in the manner prescribed in Standing Orders 79(b) and 79(a)(2). All the committee can do is report in a formal message to the Dáil that it has considered the motion.

Under Standing Orders, there is no reason why we cannot state that the committee has considered the motion and, while it has no reservations about the agreements with Bulgaria and Poland, it has reservations about the agreement with Nigeria, having considered it fully. We do not have to use the word "considered". I suggest we say that, having considered all three agreements, the committee confirms its consideration and confirms that it has reservations about the agreement with Nigeria. I propose we deal with the matter in this way, as it would not violate Standing Orders. This procedure is entirely futile if we cannot send such a message. We might as well come here, nod to the Minister and walk out again if this ridiculous procedure cannot be modified.

I am advised that the procedure cannot be altered in the absence of agreement.

I propose a different procedural motion if we are to be frustrated by Standing Orders, stating that we have not completed our consideration of the Nigerian agreement and that we request the presence of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for further consideration. I suggest we adjourn this discussion until the Minister is available to attend.

Similarly, I propose that we invite the Irish Refugee Council, Amnesty International, the Human Rights Commission and any other interested party to make submissions on the agreement with Nigeria to this committee or its successor.

Do the Deputies intend to press the matter?

I suggest that we formally agree the motions relating to the agreements with Bulgaria and Poland.

Can that be done?

Yes, as they are three separate motions.

There is no difficulty about the first two motions.

The motions relating to Bulgaria and Poland are agreed and can be referred to the Dáil.

We have considered them and we should report that we have concluded our deliberations.

I propose that we adjourn for five minutes to facilitate an examination of the matter.

Sitting suspended at 4.20 p.m. and resumed at 4.35 p.m.

I thank the Minister and her officials of presenting the details of the convention.

The formal motion proposed before the adjournment needs to be withdrawn by its mover, Deputy Shatter.

I retain serious reservations in the context of the Nigerian agreement. I note, however, that the procedures of the House, as advised to us by the clerk of the committee, do not provide for us to inform the House of these reservations. In the circumstances we are confined to confirming that we have considered the motion.

Top
Share