On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his officials to the meeting to consider Supplementary Estimates for Votes 20, 21 and 22.
Estimates for Public Services, 2002.
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Supplementary).
Vote 21 - Prisons (Supplementary).
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Supplementary).
I thank the committee for inviting and affording me this opportunity to discuss the Supplementary Estimates. The provision in the Revised Estimates for 2002 for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is €1.582 billion. I seek approval for a Supplementary Estimate of €20 million for the prisons Vote. This amounts to approximately 1.2% of the allocation to the Department for 2002. In addition, I seek Oireachtas approval for a technical Supplementary Estimate for a net amount of €8 million under the Garda Vote which will be met by savings under departmental Vote 19. I also seek the approval of the Oireachtas for a technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 for the courts Vote.
I refer to the requirement of €8 million under the Garda Vote. The figure is being sought for expenditure by means of a Supplementary Estimate and funded by savings from the justice Vote, which I propose to transfer to the Garda Vote. The net provision in the 2002 Estimates is €919 million. There is a slight danger - less than 1% - of an overrun on this figure if front line Garda operations are to be maintained at the current requirement. I propose that an additional €8 million should be assigned to the Garda Vote because of this possibility. That amount will be met from savings under the Justice, Equality and Law Reform Vote 19 which will arise in the following areas: child care, €3 million and €1 million each from criminal legal aid, asylum seekers' task force, gender mainstreaming and positive action for women. Further savings will occur under other subheads of Vote 19 to make up the €8 million required for Vote 20.
I understand that the committee already has the detailed figures so I do not intend to deal with them at great length. The net figure of €8 million is arrived at by estimating the gross additional expenditure on certain subheads and deducting from it the savings arising under other subheads. As is normal with the Garda Vote, there will be transfers between subheads within the Vote which reflect changing circumstances and priorities. Savings of €23.5 million have been identified in eight subheads while gross additional expenditure of €31.5 million is envisaged in nine subheads.
The areas of additional expenditure can be divided into two broad categories, one of which relates to Garda operational issues and the other to demand-led items which are outside the control of management, largely speaking.
An additional €7 million is being allocated to additional Garda overtime. In response to concerns about street crime and public order, a decision was made earlier this year to increase Garda presence on the streets, especially at night and weekends. The launching of Operation Encounter was especially relevant in this context.
Expenditure of travel and subsistence will exceed the original estimate by approximately €5.4 million, the majority of which - €3 million - arises from Garda operations in combating the foot and mouth disease epidemic. Although the operations took place in 2001, a number of the claims were not paid out until January of this year. The remainder arises from operational decisions to make greater use of Garda resources from outlying areas for specific operations. There was also a change in May in the situation regarding subsistence amounts payable for gardaí attending courses in Templemore. This was as a result of a civil action taken.
The main increases in other subheads relate to superannuation, which is €13.15 million, and compensation payments, which are €3 million. While gardaí up to the rank of inspector must retire on reaching the age of 57, they have the option of retiring on reaching the age of 50 if they have 30 years' service. At any point there may be up to 1,000 gardaí who have the option of retiring if they wish. It is difficult to predict the number of retirements. There were a higher number of retirements this year which is why additional moneys were needed for superannuation.
Subhead I deals with payments under the Garda Síochána (Compensation) Acts and payments made as a result of civil action for damages. The amounts awarded are determined by the courts and it is not possible to predict the exact amounts to be awarded in advance.
The major savings are to be found in subhead A5, which relates to computers, and subhead E, which relates to communications. Between them we expect to record a saving this year of €15.6 million. These relate to capital expenditure where savings frequently arise because of delays in tendering or delivery of equipment. Earlier this year when it became apparent that there was a danger that expenditure might exceed the Estimates provision, I raised the matter with the Garda authorities. They took the view, correctly in my opinion, that front-line policing operations should have priority and special attention was paid to those two subheads to ensure that further savings could be effected in the case of non-priority projects.
Another area of savings was subhead K, appropriations-in-aid. Receipts in this area are expected to exceed the original estimate by €5 million and that can be used to offset increases in expenditure. With regard to the Garda Vote, I have dealt with the most significant areas of expenditure and do not want to go into further detail.
On prisons, the Supplementary Estimate sought is €20 million. The additional requirement under subhead A, which relates to wages, salaries and allowances, is € 22.9 million and deals with the overtime part of the subhead. Overtime is projected to cost €60.3 million this year.
The Prisons Service has for many years operated on what is an extraordinary and unacceptable level of dependence on overtime. In 2001 the cost of overtime was almost 30% of overall pay costs for the service. Existing staffing arrangements mean that it has been necessary to resort to overtime work to cover prisoner escorts, staff leave, staff training, sick absence and staff shortfalls. The regime in Ireland is liberal regarding out of cell time for prisoners and this makes demands in terms of maintaining safe levels of staffing during out of cell periods from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. daily.
Since my appointment as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, it has been my stated aim to address decisively the issue of unacceptable overtime costs in the Prisons Service. In meetings I have had with both management of the Irish Prisons Service and the national officers of the Prison Officers Association, the union which represents the great majority of prison staff, I made it crystal clear that I consider this to be a priority for the Department. I have made it known to all that I am concerned and determined to see that it is addressed in the short-term rather than the long-term.
At my request, officials of the Irish Prisons Service who have been engaged in a detailed exploration of alternative working arrangements for the operation of prisons and places of detention are finalising the last details of a draft package or framework of proposals on which to consult staff. As the issues involved affect the fundamental conditions of service for prison officers, any change will require negotiation through the normal industrial relations machinery. It will be appreciated, however, that such change takes time and cannot be brought about overnight. However, it is my intention that realistic proposals for change in the short-term will be tabled in a matter of weeks and discussed urgently with staff representatives with a view to the necessary staffing reforms being agreed in the early part of the new year. It is intended that there will be an impact from the implementation of this package on overtime in 2003.
Attendance at court by prisoners for remand hearing costs the Prisons Service substantial amounts in overtime. They are a security risk and cause disruption to prisoners and staff. I am making arrangements for a tightly drawn committee to examine urgently the introduction of video conferencing which would eliminate the need for prisoners to attend such hearings.
Additional requirements in respect of administration cover travel and subsistence, incidental expenses, post and telecommunications expenses and other matters amount to €5.449 million. For other services, including education, an additional €250,000 is being sought.
On receipts from manufacturing activities, the original estimate was €924,000, but the Irish Prisons Service estimates the receipts will only be €760,000. One contributory factor to the reduced level of receipts is the concentration on the production of items which are being donated by the IPS to the Special Olympics in 2003. I am sure committee members will agree that is a praiseworthy diversion of prisoners' efforts.
The total expenditure outlined under the subheads has been partly offset by savings of €8.9 million across a range of subheads. There is a saving of €2.15 million on capital projects. This arises from a number of projects which are taking longer to get off the ground than was anticipated. When dealing with large complex projects, that is always a factor. The Government is committed to the Prisons Service building programme which, over the past five years, has delivered 1,200 extra prison places. The overall effect on the Prisons Service has been that the revolving door has been shut and the percentage of prisoners on temporary release has been reduced from 19% to 7%.
Savings under headings such as clothing, food and heating amount to €1.1 million and that is because some training programmes were delayed pending the recruitment of qualified staff. Expenditure on equipment was postponed while the Irish Prisons Service assessed its requirements and initiated a tender procedure.
There is an overall saving of €5 million in the area of probation and welfare and the community services scheme. The major part of that arose from legal and other difficulties that occasioned considerable delay in the establishment of new probation centres and from the gap that normally occurs between the occurrence and filling of vacancies which must be done through the Civil Service Commission.
On Vote 22, the Courts Vote, I propose a technical Supplementary Estimate of €1,000 to allow the transfer of additional appropriations-in-aid receipts to expenditure subheads. Expenditure on stenography and interpreter fees will exceed the original estimate by €940,000. There has been a consistent increase in expenditure on these services which are a legal requirement in the criminal courts. It has been brought about by an increase in the number of murder and rape cases before the courts, a growing requirement for overnight transcripts and an increase in the length and complexity of cases.
Expenditure on courthouse maintenance will exceed the original Estimate by €2.48 million. That is due to the need to incur substantial amounts of expenditure of capital of a current nature to ensure conditions in courthouses around the country are suitable for court sittings. I have visited many of the newer and newly refurbished court facilities throughout the country in the recent months and the Courts Service is doing a marvellous job with these refurbishments.
There are a number of other items with which I will not deal, but, as a result of changes between one subhead and another in the Courts Service Vote, we effectively require only a technical Supplementary Estimate which will allow viriment between the various subheads in that Vote.
I thank the Minister for that explanation of the subheads. Due to the funeral of the former Deputy, Mr. Jim Mitchell, members have agreed to be brief on this occasion. I am sure they would like to make extended contributions but they have agreed to be brief.
I will be brief. Our side of the House has no difficulty supporting the allocation of additional funds to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. When one sees the crime levels in the recently published report, one can see how crime is rising. The number of murders this year and last year is frightening; at this stage the figure is 25% higher than the corresponding full year figure of two years ago. We need additional resources on the street to combat crime. In that context, one is disappointed with the Estimates, particularly in view of the additional numbers of gardaí that were promised. It does not appear that these new gardaí will be taken on next year. Perhaps a magic wand will be waved tomorrow and something will happen.
The Minister referred to the retirement age for gardaí, which is 57 years, and said that more officers than expected are leaving the force. It is true they must retire at 57 and that many also retire after 30 years service, when in their early 50s. Part of the reason for many leaving after 30 years is that they are going into different careers and making provision for other pensions. If they enter another area of employment, they will clock up a social welfare pension when they reach 65. Maybe they are wise to do so.
It is important that the Minister look at the retirement age of 57. It could be extended so that a fit garda could be recommended to remain on the force. I was talking to a garda yesterday who is retiring this Friday and I would love to have him on my team; he is fit, intelligent, efficient and does a bloody good job. However, we are going to turf him out of the service of the State. That does not make sense. The Minister should examine the retirement age.
There is an overtime scandal in the Prisons Service. The fact that 30% of the total wages in the Prisons Service is paid in overtime means something is radically wrong. I do not know whether this problem is the responsibility of the management of the service, the Department or the Minister, but it must be addressed. This is an ongoing problem and successive Ministers have appeared before the committee and stated that he or she is meeting the union. A figure of 30% for overtime is not acceptable. It is not acceptable for prison officers to be under pressure to do this overtime. We have heard stories of prison officers who feel they never get time off, which is also unfair.
I am speaking shortly in the House so if I leave it is not a discourtesy to the Minister or any other speaker.
I was delighted to oblige the Deputy.
I will also be brief. I welcome the Minister. It is good that, instead of explaining what is happening in Europe or referring to briefs other than his own, the Minister explained what is happening with his brief.
We support the Supplementary Estimates for matters relating to the Garda, the prisons and the courts, but that occurs against a very serious backdrop. Crime has increased enormously, as we saw from the annual Garda report for 2001. We also saw a media report today that money - €1 million for training and equipment - to ensure that the Road Traffic Act passed earlier this year is implemented properly will not be made available. As members know, this is the time when the implementation of such an Act is most important because it will help save people's lives. The Minister should address the reason we do not have sufficient funding to cover this shortfall - perhaps it could be provided in a Supplementary Estimate - which means that, according to the media, section 10 of the Act is not in operation.
It is worrying to see the amount of additional funding required - 9% in relation to retiring gardaí and 25% for compensating gardaí. Those are substantial additional amounts. Why are more gardaí than expected retiring? For what purpose is compensation being paid and why is there a 25% overrun? There was no extra money in the original Estimates for recruitment, but we need as many additional gardaí as possible in place to ensure the force is able to operate at the optimum level.
I am also concerned that the areas where money has been lost - resources, support services, free legal aid, the asylum seekers' task force, gender mainstreaming and positive action for women - are those one might regard as soft areas for justice. Why has the funding relating to these areas not been taken up? Is there insufficient awareness? They are extremely important areas and support mechanisms for the ordinary citizen. In addition, Deputy Moynihan-Cronin and I are aware that there are fears in rural areas that Garda stations will close in small villages. In light of current concerns about crime, local communities are anxious about the impact this will have on the delivery of an adequate service.
As Deputy McGrath said and as stated in a reply to a recent parliamentary question, the figures for the Prisons Service show an increase of 30% in overtime. That is far too much. The prisons should be better administered to ensure that there is no need for such overtime to be paid.
If we look at the entire Supplementary Estimate subhead, the one area which strikes me as interesting is that relating to the court or prison escorts sector. In view of the amount of money paid to prisoner escorts, it seems that prisoners are travelling the country day and night.
There is also the matter of court expenditure. Given the Minister's comments on upgrading court buildings and services, why can we not have more court services provided adjacent to prisons? Why must prisoners be brought into cities or to other locations throughout the country? Mountjoy is a large complex. Why can we not have a court service provided there in another building? A prefab would be sufficient instead of spending millions of pounds bringing prisoners to the Four Courts or elsewhere or in transporting them from Limerick, Cork, the Curragh or Wheatfield. Clover Hill is the only prison which has a court service adjacent to it. A fortune could be saved on escort duties if such services were provided.
Money is again being saved in the soft areas of citizen services such as the probation and welfare service and services for offenders. We have an inadequate probation and welfare service and we need to boost it considerably. Again, however, this seems to be the major area where money is being saved. I am not satisfied that there is sufficient will within the service to ensure that the available funding is used to its maximum effect. I would like to hear a more detailed explanation of why all the savings are being made in the Garda and the prison service.
I welcome the Minister and compliment him and his staff on their comprehensive report. I have no doubt the committee will support the Vote of €8 million for the Garda.
How did the Minister and his staff identify child care, gender mainstreaming and women's issues as areas where savings should be made?
More gardaí than anticipated have retired. Is the Minister in a position to assure members that these are being replaced and that the Government's plan to increase Garda strength will be fulfilled? I want to see Garda strength increased and rural Garda stations retained. I would like the Minister to give me an assurance on those matters.
I compliment the Minister on his initiative regarding overtime in the Prisons Service. We need an energised and rejuvenated staff in what must be stressful situations. I support the Minister in his initiative. He is going about things the right way. The production in prison workshops of items for the Special Olympics is to be commended.
The maintenance and restoration of courthouses throughout the country is being undertaken by the Courts Service. Are these restoration projects on target? Nenagh courthouse is one of the most noble buildings in Munster and is crying out for restoration. I would welcome the Minister's response to my comments.
I reiterate the point made by Deputies Costello, Hoctor and others regarding Garda overtime. I am pleased that funding has been set aside within the overtime provision for Operation Encounter. Of all Garda operations this one should not be underestimated. The physical presence of gardaí on the streets, particularly at weekends, is vital. Given that so much of this operation is devoted to weekends, overtime costs must be high. The anti-social behaviour which is plaguing the streets of Ireland, and western Europe, is the most important political issue for many people who see gangs marauding our streets at weekends. I encourage the Minister not to divert funds from that programme. It works, is seen to work and enhances the confidence of the people in gardaí at a time when confidence in the force is not all that it should be.
I want to be associated with the welcome extended to the Minister. Deputy Costello has already given the Minister the good wishes of my constituency colleague, Deputy Rabbitte, so I do not have to do that.
I support what the Minister is trying to do in his Department. I particularly support his community policing initiative.
I have been frustrated in my efforts to raise the issue of courthouse development and courthouse services in Tallaght. I have not been able to get the matter past the General Office or the Ceann Comhairle's office. I do not like to mention Tallaght, which is in my constituency, on occasions such as this, but I note that Deputy Hoctor has raised this issue so it is clearly of concern to other Deputies. I wish to signal to the Minister that I have concerns in this regard. Perhaps the Minister's officials could advise me as to how I could progress such issues.
I wish the Minister well. I support the work he is trying to do on behalf of all of us.
I support the Minister's efforts to curb the overtime costs incurred by prison staff taking prisoners to court. Would the Minister consider a change in the current practice by which a person who is on remand must appear in the District Court within eight days of his first court appearance and whose second or subsequent remand can last for 28 days? Does the Minister consider this system effective or does he think changes to the rules are required? The costs are particularly great in remote areas where, for example, prisoners may have to be transported from Limerick Prison to west Cork. On the other hand, prisoners have constitutional rights and any infringement on them would cause uproar among advocates of civil liberties.
Some items have been raised which are outside the parameters of today's meeting and we would like to have five minutes of private business before we adjourn at 6 p.m. I know the Minister is something of a magician and it would be appreciated if he could answer the questions comprehensively within that time.
I will rattle away, Chairman.
I agree with Deputy Paul McGrath. The crime figures are worrying and disappointing. Many factors are at play. Some have to do with better recording and others with the demographic phenomenon of the crime-centred cohort of the population reaching a maximum at present. I am in no way complacent about those figures. The Garda Commissioner, Mr. Pat Byrne, and I are looking carefully at new strategies to deal with them. It is not simply a matter of dealing with the effect of crime or dealing with it on a symptomatic basis. We must also deal with the causes.
I agree with Deputy McGrath that the issue of retirement at 57 years of age should be considered. I do not want to commit myself to an outcome, but the Department is looking at the issue. It is not obvious that a substantial saving would result. However, there is room to reconsider the issue. The majority of those who have retired unexpectedly, so to speak, have not reached 57 years of age but have retired earlier having reached 50 years of age and completed 30 years of service. Perhaps the 57 to 60 years of age period is not a determining factor in the majority of the current "boom" in retirements. I review the issue constantly and I will look seriously at any method of improvement or reform.
Deputy Costello raised a matter which echoed remarks made by Deputy Rabbitte this afternoon suggesting I would be better employed dealing with crime issues rather than issues off my brief.
I was not in the House to hear those remarks.
Any Deputy may read the speech I gave in which it is clear I was dealing with issues within my brief. In it I responded to justice and home affairs matters. I would expect the support of the majority of members of this committee for the fundamental position I outlined, namely, that we do not want to move from the position of having the decision-making power relating to our criminal law and procedure located in this jurisdiction to one where these could be determined from outside by qualified majority voting and alterations to them imposed on us against our will. That was the obverse side of the taxation coin, but it was not reported on at great length in The Irish Times.
Deputy Costello referred to road traffic. The medical bureau of road safety is funded entirely from outside my departmental Vote. The money formerly came from the Department of the Environment and Local Government's Vote, but it now comes from the Department of Transport's Vote. It is not a question of a lack of resources from my Department delaying matters. I understand the Minister for Transport is anxious to proceed as soon as possible. Resources are not an issue. However, the Minister must ensure that, with impending court decisions about alcoliser equipment and its use, he does not invest a large sum of money on machines that will be found unsatisfactory by reason of a court decision.
In regard to Road Traffic Act measures the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is co-operating fully with the Department of Transport in all the initiatives taken by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan. I pay tribute to him for pressing ahead against bureaucratic obstacles. He has brought into effect the penalty points system in regard to some areas of the road traffic code. The effect of that has been startling and the number of lives lost in November was halved in comparison with the same month last year. Some people criticise the provisional basis on which the penalty points system was introduced. It had to be brought in on that basis in order to get around difficulties due to delays in computerisation. On a statistical basis, the Minister saved 20 lives in November.
The bill for compensation arises under two heads. Two thirds of it relates to compensation of gardaí and the final third relates to compensation claims against members of the force. These are two sides of one coin. We live in a world of violence. I do not condone any member of the Garda who uses violence which results in a civil liability on the part of the State. However, I find the figures relating compensation in the other direction and the fact that members of the Garda are subject to appalling violence in the course of duty equally disturbing. It is a matter I have under consideration. It may be dealt with as Garda compensation in a different way, but I do not wish to say more about that at this stage.
It was suggested that we have opted for soft targets in regard to savings. For example, on the child care programme one might say money is being taken away from children. The roll-out of the child care programme in my Department is proceeding satisfactorily. This year's budget was €58.4 million. Due to delays in particular projects €3 million of that was available for savings so it was brought into the equation.
The criminal legal aid issue is a demand-led scheme. Its cost depends on a number of factors including the fees payable under the scheme and the decision to grant legal aid, etc. As it happened, €1 million could be saved in this area and I put it into the equation in order to apply it to the overrun on Garda matters.
The asylum seekers' task force has an enormous budget. The entire State services are probably spending between €280 million to €300 million per annum on this area. I availed of the opportunity to make a saving of €1 million in this area.
While I agree with Deputies that it is easy to raid soft targets when in difficulty with meeting budget Estimates, I feel I have made fair decisions while bearing in mind the consequences of those decisions. For example, I could have decided to leave the €8 million under their original subheads and not to transfer them to Garda activities. If I had closed down Operation Encounter or ended overtime for many Garda investigations, the result would be that lives would be put at risk. I am paid to make these difficult decisions.
The issue of Garda numbers was raised. There are 11,928 gardaí in the service at present. That will go decrease somewhat by the end of the year. The figure is close to the 12,000 ceiling the previous Government fixed. As I explained in the House recently, the total annual capacity of Templemore is a throughput of 650. To date, we have operated in the area of 550 per annum. By making efficient use of the resources available I intend to move towards the figure of 650 during the next year. That will not bring us up to the target of 14,000 specified in the Government programme. Taking retirements, etc., into account, we would need to have 830 or 840 people passing through Templemore annually to achieve that figure. I acknowledge that because of financial circumstances I will not be in a position to adopt that figure this year. The point is the money is not there to allow me to do so.
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
It is a matter of a little bit of both but that is the world in which I live.
Deputy Hoctor raised the matter of Nenagh courthouse, which I visited last week. There is work being done to restore the building which, I agree, is magnificent. The Courts Service will have to look at its resources to see how it will fund the ongoing programmes of courthouse renewal for next year. Some courthouse projects are being done on a PPP basis. The work is already in hand in Nenagh, so a different approach will have to be taken there. I am confident that, with ingenuity and goodwill, all those projects will proceed to completion as soon as possible.
I agree with Deputy Power that Encounter is a very useful programme. As I said earlier, it could have succumbed to the absence of the additional funding for the Garda Síochána had I been minded to make different decisions. We have kept all the major Garda initiatives going this year with a view to ensuring that the public gets the service it requires.
Deputy O'Connor referred to Tallaght courthouse and the difficulties in getting answers. If the Deputy is asking questions which are being slapped down on the basis that I do not have direct responsibility for the activities of the Courts Service, I would suggest in a friendly tone that the Deputy ask me a parliamentary question about the Department's understanding of these matters and he will then get an answer.
I am learning fast.
As Deputy John Bruton says, ask me the right question and you will get the answer. I wish to say something about prison officer overtime because it is an important matter. There is an amount of €60 million in overtime and that is nearly the same amount from 3,300 prison officers as is being paid to nearly 12,000 gardaí in overtime. The system requires radical reform. As I said in my opening remarks, Chairman, I intend to deal with it in the short-term because I have to. It cannot go on as it is at present. I want nobody to draw any other conclusion from the fact that this Supplementary Estimate is being introduced. I do not intend bringing in any more Supplementary Estimates to deal with this issue. I intend bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion in the very near future, in weeks rather than months. I will start the process to bring the matter to some satisfactory conclusion.