I welcome the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates for 2004. I invite the Minister to make his opening comments.
Vote 23 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds (Revised).
I welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee in its consideration of the Estimates for my Department's group of Votes. The five Votes comprise 103 subheads that require such a significant attendance here today and include current, capital, pay and programme spending. Obviously in the short time available to us it will not be possible to cover all of this ground. In the circumstances I will keep my remarks brief. I propose to refer to a few key areas within my Department's remit.
The Estimates for the five Votes covered by my Department amount to a total of €1.84 billion, an increase of 6.3% when compared to the budget for 2003. In cash terms, this is an increase of €109 million. This very significant amount has been allocated by the Government for the administration of the public services in the justice and equality area comprehended by the justice Vote group. These public services span a very wide range of functions from the Garda Síochána to the courts and Prison Service; from the provision of child care facilities to immigration; from the Human Rights Commission to the Legal Aid Board. In total, 23 agencies and bodies are funded from the Vote group. Approximately 22,000 public servants are employed in the delivery of services in the justice and equality area.
For the first time ever the 2004 budget for the Garda Síochána exceeds €1 billion. This is a strong indication of the Government's and my own unyielding commitment to ensuring the force has at its disposal all the necessary tools and resources to maintain the fight against crime in all its manifestations.
With an allocation of €345.7 million, Vote 19 covers the activities of my Department and a range of smaller agencies and programmes under its remit. In broad terms, expenditure on the Vote can be categorised as follows: administration, €46.98 million; commissions and special inquiries, €14.86 million; legal aid, €52 million; asylum-immigration, €120 million; equality, €84.6 million; disability, €7.5 million; and other services, €20.99 million. Expenditure on these services is accounted for in 48 subheads.
As members will note, equality measures, including child care, asylum-immigration, legal aid, criminal and civil, account for a major element of expenditure on the justice Vote. A total of €68.2 million has been provided for the development of badly needed child care services. Since the equal opportunities childcare programme commenced in 2000, over €200 million has been allocated for the provision of child care facilities. Crucially over the same period over 23,000 new and additional child care places have been delivered. More than €16 million is being provided for other equality measures, which includes funding for the Equality Authority and Equality Tribunal.
On the asylum and immigration front, my Department has a budget of €120 million in 2004. Of this, €50.9 million is for processing asylum applications and related work while a further €69.2 million is for the provision of accommodation and related facilities for applicants under the system of direct provision.
As I indicated, for the first time ever the Garda budget for 2004 has broken through the €1 billion barrier. When compared to last year, this represents an increase of almost 9.5%. The truth is that the Garda Síochána has never been better resourced in its 84 year history — whether in manpower, equipment or the most sophisticated policing tools. To put this in context, as I stated in the House last night, the Garda budget in 1997 was €609.6 million, on which this year's budget represents a 73% increase.
There are 20 subheads in the Garda Vote which go to make up the budget. They cover the full range of Garda activities, including transport, communications, IT, overtime and so forth. Some €3.7 million is included in subhead E for the finalisation of the fixed charge processing system. This is in addition to the €7 million spent under this heading last year.
Garda overtime payments are a major item in the Garda Vote. The provision this year is €58.3 million which will yield in excess of two million overtime hours. Moreover, this represents an increase of over 13% on the 2003 allocation. In addition, nearly €7 million has been provided for Garda overtime under the EU Presidency subhead. Expenditure on Garda overtime which enables the Commissioner to deploy the force for high visibility policing duties at times of greatest need is money well spent. We are all aware that this form of policing is what all sections of the community demand.
An effective telecommunications system is an essential tool for effective policing. The Garda Síochána has been working on the implementation of a pilot project for the introduction of a digital radio network covering the north division of the Dublin metropolitan region and the traffic sections in Dublin. The pilot project has now been completed and works successfully. Following on from it, the Garda Síochána has produced a detailed business case for the deployment of a nationwide system. Options for the procurement of the project include a managed service, public private partnership as well as State funding options. I am satisfied that there is a need to replace the existing analogue radio system. In this regard, discussions are ongoing between officials of my Department in conjunction with the Garda authorities and the Department of Finance.
On the Garda Vote, the provisional headline crime figures for the first quarter of 2004 show a decrease of 6%. As we discussed the figures last night in the House, I will not detain the committee any further with them.
The prisons Vote for 2004 is €345.726 million. The process of change and modernisation continues within the Prison Service. The next major steps will be the development of two major new prison complexes over a five year period, namely, the replacements for the Mountjoy complex and Cork Prison. The Mountjoy complex will be completely redeveloped on a new site and provide approximately 1,000 places. The new prison complex which will replace Cork Prison and Fort Mitchel on Spike Island will have approximately 800 spaces. These new prisons will provide modern facilities for prisoners and improved working conditions for prison staff. The additional spaces will alleviate overcrowding. The design of the prisons will ensure a more efficient and cost effective service.
For many years the Prison Service was operating with an ever growing dependence on overtime working. The cost of overtime in 2003 was €58.9 million, which averages out at approximately €18,000 per prison officer per annum. This dependence on overtime is indefensible and I am committed to bringing it to an end. In addition to addressing the overtime issue, I have secured Government approval for a range of measures to control overtime costs in 2004, including adoption of strict budgets, temporary prison closures and contracting out prison services where this has been done to contain costs.
Efforts to find a mutually acceptable and agreed approach to introducing the level of change required in the Prison Service eventually led to agreement to enter into talks at the Labour Relations Commission in December 2003. Those talks have been protracted and difficult. However, I am hopeful, on the latest briefings from the Prison Service management side, that they will be concluded in the very near future. Following conclusion of the talks, a number of issues will be sent to the arbitrator for determination. In the interim it has proved necessary to adopt a range of Government approved measures to ensure adherence to 2004 budgets.
In essence, €30 million is being shaved off the overtime budget for the Prison Service this year. Under the programme of decentralisation, the Prison Service headquarters will relocated to Longford. A site has been selected and the local planning hurdle cleared. Building will commence on finalisation of a PPP procurement process by the OPW, and I intend that the headquarters should be set up and running in mid to late 2006. I have seen the site and the plans, and the project is well advanced.
Some €75.7 million has been provided for the courts Vote in 2004. This represents a 4.3% increase on the figure for 2003. This does not include the Central Fund figure for payment of salaries to judges. The funding provided is allowing the Courts Service to progress the implementation of its strategic plans and policies, specifically in the area of information technology and capital building programmes. I am very confident that the level of funding provided for the service is adequate to maintain existing levels of service. It is plain to the see that the Government, through the major investment programme on both information technology and buildings, has demonstrated its commitment to ensure the Courts Service has the necessary infrastructure in place to discharge its responsibilities and, at the same time, support the judicial system.
Major progress has been made in the area of courts administration. New technology is being introduced to streamline and update office systems; the use of video conferencing to reduce the need for personal attendance in court is being examined by a committee; and a new commercial court has been established in the High Court.
It is important that the development of policy in regard to the courts is done in conjunction with and as part of an overall policy on the criminal justice system. To this end, links are being strengthened between the courts and the other criminal justice agencies to promote a common purpose and ensure the efficient exchange of necessary information.
Planning is commencing on a new criminal courts complex for the Dublin area which will house all criminal courts in one single courts complex. I understand it is likely to be located on a new site at the junction of King's Bridge and Parkgate Street, this side of the Phoenix Park. It is a very exciting PPP project which looks as if it will be a great success.
On the Land Registry, €32.7 million is being provided in Vote 23 in 2004. I thank the committee for its attention and will answer any questions put to me.
I am delighted to hear a courts complex is being put in place. During our review of the criminal justice system we learned that the Lagan-side system had been praised highly. There has been a terrible problem in regard to intimidation of witnesses and the separation of witnesses from defendants.
I imagine this new building will be bigger than the Lagan-side complex. It will have separate ingress and egress for those in custody. There will also be separate proper accommodation for jurors, victims, the legal profession and so on. It will be a very substantial, quantum leap forward. Since Mountjoy Prison is projected to close, it will have to be serviced by a local committal jail. It is quite likely that Arbour Hill Prison will serve this purpose as it is located just up the road from it.
Is the location intended to be where An Post has its buildings at the back of King's Bridge?
No, it will be located on the northern side of the river at Parkgate Street. Between the Department of Defence offices and King's Bridge there is a large car park and vehicle pound. It is a big site behind the walls on the street front. The whole complex will be served by Luas——
On the southern side of Parkgate Street.
On the northern side, beside the Department of Defence offices.
They are all kept in the Taoiseach's constituency. We are based on the other side of the road.
I was asking questions for the Deputy's benefit but unfortunately it is located in another constituency.
When I took up this position a few months ago, I think the Minister mentioned that I had been around the courts before. As I recollect, going back to the last century the presentation of the justice Estimates was a major State occasion where Members confronted one another across the floor of the House in a huge debate. To some extent, this new procedure is better. There is an actual teasing out of the figures and so on but it has gone a little too much the other way given the short time now available for so doing. I accept there are pressures in regard to the Presidency and otherwise at this time but in future more time should be available. It is a pity that, with such a fine team of departmental talent present, we cannot start throwing balls at them in order to get replies on various issues and genuinely tease out the figures in more detail. Of necessity, my remarks have to be general in nature because of the short time available.
I would like the Minister to deal with a couple of points in regard to the Garda Síochána. As usual, he grabbed that particular ball last night when we had another version of the promise made in regard to increased Garda numbers, in this case on an instalment basis. Having had a quick look at the figures this morning I do not see any provision, either on the capital or current side, to underpin an increase in numbers. On a cursory glance at the figures, there is an increase in expenditure but that would seem to just cover benchmarking payments, other increases in salaries and so on.
I noted last night that two years after the Government had taken office the Minister talked about addressing a number of issues as part of the planning process designed to lead to an increase in Garda numbers. There is a need for the Government to be more upfront. There are serious problems, including a major bottleneck in training facilities. As I understand it, the college in Templemore is at full capacity. Plucking numbers out of the air and telling us that there will increased numbers in the future is not the answer. We need to know, first, that there is the political will; second, that the money will be made available; and, third, that practical plans are being put in place to achieve these results. Otherwise we will greet the Minister's latest announcement with the same disbelief with which we greeted the last one, probably with the same result.
The other issue that concerns me is the question of Garda equipment. I am genuinely concerned that the force is equipped with the best modern technology. Time does not permit a discussion but from what I have read efforts in regard to the PULSE system seem to have gone on a pilgrimage of difficulties. The whole issue generates concern that sufficient resources are not being made available in order that the Garda Síochána can be the best equipped police force in the world, which is what I want it to be.
That leads me to the crime figures. I was never great at mathematics but I genuinely get totally confused when I hear about figures for one month being 3% up and for another 3% down. That is a ridiculous way of presenting crime figures. There should be a baseline figure. The baseline should be the figure for 1998, the first full year of office of the Government, when there were 86,000 headline crimes. The last official figure of which I am aware is the 2002 figure of 106,0001. What was the figure for 2003?
On individual crimes such as firearm offences, it is interesting to note that the figure is either increasing or decreasing but the figures must all be related to the general position and whether the Minister is making progress. I take no joy in the figures increasing or not decreasing sufficiently. I appreciate that with the increasing urbanisation of society there is a tendency for the crime figures to be pushed up. The population is also increasing. I accept that there are such factors but unless there is a full realisation of its extent, we cannot confront the problem. My point is that massaging, manipulating or presenting the figures in a confusing way does not help.
The probation and welfare service needs to be developed further. Are adequate resources — money and manpower — being provided? If we are to deal genuinely with the problems in society, the probation and welfare service has a huge role to play. Perhaps the Minister will touch on this briefly.
I am glad to note that an effort is being made to deal with the overtime issue in the Prison Service. I accept that there is a difficulty and hope a solution can be found which will have to take into account the fact that prison officers are not pieces on a chess board. Over a period of years, for a variety of reasons, a situation was allowed to develop in which they became hugely dependent on overtime. In finding a solution it is correct that the realities of life should be presented to them but at the same time they must be dealt with as human beings. I hope a reasonable solution will be found.
As a lawyer, I used to be very interested in the enormous delays in the Land Registry about which, when I went into politics, many colleagues always complained. My understanding is that there has been a considerable improvement. This is an issue which is not often debated and which, considering his background, probably does not have much relevance for the Minister. I note €32 million is being provided for the Land Registry which I thought was making money. Is it not totally misleading to present an Estimate indicating that it is costing the State €32 million? I always thought that fee income exceeded its running costs and that it was making a profit. There was even talk of floating it as a commercial semi-State enterprise. Has the Minister directed his attention to this issue? What is its present status?
The largest increases seem to be in the area of entertainment, in respect of which the figure has gone up by 600% in 2004, and consultancy services, in respect of which the figure has gone up by 500%.
Under what heading?
In the Vote for the Office of the Minister on St. Stephen's Green.
The EU Presidency.
That is true. I do not recollect receiving too many invitations in that regard. I am sure they were all issued to Tallaght and such places.
The Deputy inflicted damage on my entertainment budget during the year.
I did. I do not recollect——
So much so that he cannot now recollect it.
I did not think the Minister was in charge of this morning's Bloomsday breakfast, the only entertainment I will receive.
There is a slight increase in the allocation for the Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is not substantial, an increase of less than €10 million, from €323 million to €331 million. While in a couple of areas there are substantial increases, there seem to be substantial decreases in services. For example, the amount allocated in respect of criminal injuries has declined by almost half — from €12.7 million last year to €7.2 million this year. The allocation in respect of criminal legal aid has dropped from €37 million last year to €33 million this year. I would have thought that this would be an area in which there would be an increase rather than an decrease. Funding for the free legal aid service has fallen again, from a paltry €97,000 to €94,000.
Funding for the asylum seekers task force — largely a gravy train for lawyers — and various procedures in processing the applications of asylum seekers has increased from €34 million last year to €40 million this year. However, the numbers seeking asylum have dropped. Funding for asylum seekers' accommodation has fallen from €76 million last year to €69 million this year. Therefore, two thirds of the costs associated with asylum seekers are now incurred on processing procedures. If the number of asylum seekers and their accommodation requirements are declining sharply, how come there is such an increase in the cost of processing the applications of asylum seekers?
Funding for the anti-racism awareness campaign has dropped from a paltry €1 million to €230,000, an incredible drop at a time when there are major pressures among the public regarding immigrants. It is a massive decrease. The allocation is one quarter of what it was last year.
I note that the national consultative committee on racism, the body which advises the Government, has also suffered a decrease in funding. I would have thought that it would be expanding.
Services for people with disabilities have also suffered a decrease in funding. There has been a drop in funding for all of the caring agencies or agencies providing awareness, education and support mechanisms. I would like an explanation for this.
There is a decrease in the budget for Victim Support, an organisation about which we have heard so much recently. How will the Government provide a better service for victims if the only organisation dealing with them suffers a decrease in its budget?
I note the €1,000 allocation for the Garda ombudsman's office which the Minister intends to get up and running. Neither do I expect the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 to be passed into law much before Christmas. Given the spend in his own office, there seems to be an imbalance. Why are all of the necessary support mechanisms mentioned being starved of funds?
Even with the significant increase in the Garda Vote for 2004, there does not seem to be a built-in figure for Garda recruitment. If there is, please let us know under which heading it is allocated. The commitment on which the Minister has perhaps failed most is this one. It is reiterated from time to time. He sometimes says it is no longer needed as the crime figures have been decreasing. On the other hand, it is being reaffirmed but he admits at the same time that the capacity is not available to allow recruitment to occur.
We are going around in circles on this issue. Until the Minister comes clean and tells us how he is going to do it and where provision will be made in the budget, we cannot accept this commitment. We heard it again last night from him. I do not believe for one minute that there will be any significant increase in recruitment. The figure mentioned in the 2000 manifesto is ephemeral.
I ask the Minister to take up my suggestion of providing for expansion at Grangegorman to provide the police academy that is badly needed. A third level facility is badly needed by young trainee gardaí, so they will not be isolated in Templemore for the entire period of their training. They need to meet their peers an undergo some element of their training in an urban setting. As I said, I would welcome the issuing of an invitation to the PSNI in order that some element of the training in provides could also be provided in an urban facility. There is now such an opportunity with the development of the DIT at Grangegorman.
What is worrying is that in the figures for the Minister's office there is a doubling of the amount required by the Garda Complaints Board to process complaints. There is also a substantial sum of €10 million required for compensation in civil actions taken against the Garda. This certainly underpins the need for an ombudsman. Providing €1,000 will hardly get the ball rolling but there is certainly a serious question in respect of Garda accountability with which we must deal. We cannot have civil actions initiated and settled, by and large, on the steps of the courts. This is costing the taxpayer a lot of money and giving a bad name to certain gardaí. As we all know, the vast majority of gardaí do a fantastic job but we cannot have a culture of misbehaviour that is not dealt with properly. The increase in the level of activity of the Garda Complaints Board and the substantial amount required for compensation are alarming.
I do not know what to say about the prisons but presume the figure the Minister has given us is wrong. There is not a decrease from €345 million in 2003 to €245 million in 2004. I presume the Minister got the figure wrong——
It should be €340 million.
The wrong figure is given. The Minister has not saved almost €100 million. When I first looked at the figures, I thought that perhaps he was right after all. However, not only has he not been successful but it seems that there is a cover up on the figures also. While he has saved a whopping €58,881,000 on overtime, more than half of this amount has been brought in under what is called "extra attendance" for which the figure amounts to €30 million in 2004.
There is no figure for overtime payments to prison officers in the Estimates, not one penny. It is hard to believe not one single prison officer will get one penny in overtime in 2004, or for the next six months. However, there is a figure for extra attendance. I would, therefore, like the Minister to tease this out a little more for us. The impression is being given that the issue of overtime payments has been dealt with but, of course, it has not.
The system is chaotic and there is no plan in place to deal with it. The Minister has closed three prisons and threatened to close two more, to privatise the prison escort service and sell off Mountjoy Prison, including its Garda station. He has also confirmed that Fitzgibbon Street Garda station is to be closed, which will cause enormous difficulties for——
I did not.
The Minister confirmed it to me in the Dáil.
I did not.
I am sorry, the Minister confirmed the sale of the Mountjoy Prison site.
Yes.
The Minister is not closing Fitzgibbon Street Garda station.
I have made no plans. Ihave just said that I did not confirm the sale of Fitzgibbon Street Garda station——
We can argue about the prisons in the Dáil.
As the elections are now over, the Minister can admit to the ones that he is closing.
I am not going to fall for a bluff like that.
The only ones that are definitely safe are Donnybrook and Tallaght Garda stations.
Has the Deputy concluded?
No. We need a broader presentation of the Estimates. For example, I am alarmed at the way in which the situation in the prisons is deteriorating. There is no drug-free prison. The process is cyclical. The cost to the taxpayer per prisoner is €100,000, on average — more in some prisons — and there is no rehabilitation. The National Economic and Social Forum report of 2002 in regard to prison sentence management has not been implemented and conditions are squalid.
The annual report of the inspector — I see that the budget for the inspectorate has increased — makes unbelievable reading on our Dickensian prison system. The Minister says he is doing something about this but this has been said for a number of years now and nothing is really being done about it. The Minister's main thrust is to reduce the cost of overtime but the circumstances and conditions under which prisoners are being detained and prison staff are working are deplorable, as is the amount the taxpayer is paying into a system that is out of control. It is time the Minister devised a plan in accordance with the NESF plan.
My final remarks concern the Courts Service. I am disappointed that it really is a case of "as you were". There is a little more for consultancy services but no sign of movement towards streamlining the service to put the victim, the juror and the witness rather than the legal profession, the Garda and the defendant at the heart of the system. Nothing has been done to accommodate the needs of the key individuals in ensuring the criminal justice system can operate at that level. I would have liked to have seen the Minister bring forward some proposals, with funding, to streamline and reform the Courts Service.
I wish to be associated with the words of welcome extended to the Minister and his officials. I also welcome the new Fine Gael spokesperson because it strikes me that Deputy Jim O'Keeffe is bringing calmness in a week when some of his colleagues seem to be excited over something or other.
I am happy, too.
As I am sure the Deputy is telling his colleagues, one swallow does not make a summer. It is nice to see the Deputy so calm, unlike Deputy Costello. The Minister will be happy to see this. I will not be parochial. I will resist the temptation, therefore, to ask the Minister what effect the Estimates will have on Garda numbers, strength and resources in Tallaght.
I wish the Minister well with the Estimates and continued success in what he is trying to achieve. I support what has been said about the need to continue to support in a strong, positive and effective way the work of the Garda Síochána. In that regard, if the Minister does not mind, I support the point made by Deputy Costello which I hope the Minister will look at again.
I am very supportive of the work of Victim Support which has a group in Tallaght and is very active throughout the country. At a time when there is such emphasis in the media on the problems of victims, its work should be supported in every way possible.
I want to ask the Minister about FLAC. The centre in my constituency issued a press release stating the best way to deal with the waiting list problem was to close the local office, something I would not support. I asked the Minister a parliamentary question about the issue. I am interested in what FLAC is trying to achieve, not only in Tallaght but also in other areas. It seems simplistic to suggest that the best way to deal with the problem of long waiting lists is to close offices. I am not so sure the Minister would get much support for such a move.
As the Minister is well aware, occasionally I table parliamentary questions about the Courts Service, particularly my local court, and the Ceann Comhairle informs me kindly in a nice scroll that the Minister is not responsible to the Dáil for such matters. Therefore, he will not mind if I gently ambush him this morning. Perhaps his officials will come back to me on the possible development of the Courts Service, particularly in Tallaght which has a fine courthouse, a building which is not being used in the way it should.
I want to address the issue of where Mountjoy Prison may be relocated, about which there is a great deal of speculation. To paraphrase Deputy Costello, now that the elections are over we can ask direct questions on the matter. Is the Minister in a position to tell us exactly what timeframe is being followed, how many sites are being looked at and their location? People are wondering what he has in mind.
I support Deputy Jim O'Keeffe's comments on the Land Registry which we sometimes forget falls within the Minister's remit and about which I receive many telephone calls. I have no real complaint. Its staff are normally very efficient in dealing with the representations made to them. Is the Minister satisfied with the effectiveness of the organisation? Is he happy that we are getting good value for money? As other colleagues have said, the Land Registry receives quite a considerable sum. Within the context of the Estimates, I do not know whether I can ask the Minister about its remit but many are wondering why we are still dealing with the issue of ground rents, why they have not vanished. The British vanished nearly 100 years ago and left us with many of these problems with which we should be able to deal.
Other than that, I am very supportive of the Minister in what he is trying to achieve. He will continue to have my support as long as I am satisfied that we are getting good value for money.
The Deputy is the only Fianna Fáil backbencher who has said that.
The Deputy should not impugn my colleagues. I have not been out on the plinth all week. The only time I was quoted in the newspapers was when I stated that if the Taoiseach went to Europe, I would be devastated. That remains my political position. I wish the Minister well and I am very happy to support the Estimates.
I welcome the Minister and his staff. The provision of Garda cars may be a matter for the Garda Commissioner. Nevertheless, we are the ones who approve the Estimates for the Department. It is widely known that the Garda cars provided are inadequate. I say this because in April 2002, with the ramming of the car in which two gardaí were killed on the Stillorgan dual carriageway, the number of gardaí killed on duty in Garda cars rose to nine.
Has any risk assessment been carried out of the suitability of the cars purchased to ensure they comply with requirements in terms of safety, space and size? While no doubt they meet EU safety requirements, are they safe for use as police cars? In Sweden police cars are custom made by either Volvo or Saab. Here basic family saloon cars are used by the Garda in very dangerous circumstances. Joyriders will not often steal cars with 1.3 litre engines; rather they steal much higher powered cars with which gardaí must compete on roads such as the Stillorgan dual carriageway where they have little chance of catching up and endanger their own lives. Apart from the issue of joyriding, to ensure the safety of gardaí there is a need to provide the appropriate car. While we support the Estimates, I hope the Minister will discuss this issue with the Garda Commissioner. As a committee, we will have an opportunity to do so at some stage. It is one of the more serious questions facing members of the force in attempting to fulfil their duties to the best of their ability.
On Deputy Costello's comments on a police academy, in north Tipperary we are pleased with the facilities in Templemore. This time last year we tried to arrange a visit by members of the committee to the college where there are excellent facilities. I am not certain what Deputy Costello has in mind in stating an urban setting would be of benefit to Garda trainees who are seconded on a regular basis to busy Dublin city centre stations where they are exposed to all of the activities experienced in an urban setting.
The grant to the National Women's Council has been reduced in the 2004 Estimates — from €557,000 last year to €532,000 this year. This is disappointing. While I commend the increases in funding in other areas, for example, to combat violence against women, I would like the National Women's Council to continue to receive the funding needed to provide services for the various women's organisations.
As Deputy Costello stated, the allocation in respect of legal aid has been reduced. It is important that services are provided for those who cannot afford them. I ask that this matter be looked at to ensure the level of funding is restored to at least the figure for last year.
When representatives of the probation and welfare service appeared before the committee, they asked for an increase in funding for staff recruitment. There are increases in funding this year. Does this mean there will be more staff, particularly probation and welfare officers to serve the various court districts?
I support Deputy Hoctor's point about Garda cars, in respect of which the figure for maintenance has been reduced. I come from an area in which, on occasion, there is only one car available as the others have broken down. In the light of this, if anything, the figure for maintenance should be increased to ensure cars and vehicles are available to the Garda in the various stations around the city in order that gardaí can carry out their duties. The point the Deputy has made is that they should be of the best possible standard to ensure the safety of the officers in question and are appropriate for the job. I have seen small little vans going around Dublin which are not suitable for the big, bulky gardaí sitting behind the wheel, nor for putting anybody in the back if required. The Vote in terms of maintenance on stations is also reduced. Maybe it is part of the grand plan not to spend money on stations which will be closed, and we will hopefully hear later in the year exactly what is what in that regard. We should never reduce expenditure on the maintenance of these buildings because a huge number of people are dependent on them, including the gardaí who are working in them and also those who visit them to get passports stamped and so on. Garda stations should be friendly and open and should not be in a dilapidated condition.
I ask in particular why there is a massive increase in the Vote for Garda aircraft — an extra €1 million. I reiterate what others have said in regard, for example, to the reduction of funding for the National Women's Council, and the cuts in anti-racism awareness and for Victim Support and even the NCCRI. I welcome, as others have, the increases in spending to combat violence against women and the equality proofing aspect.
In terms of the other areas, I would like to know how the figure for the Human Rights Commission compares with the Human Rights Commission in the Six Counties. It is good that the figure is increasing, and hopefully it will continue to increase so that the commission can fulfil its duties.
In terms of the legal aid cuts and the free legal aid centres and the Legal Aid Board, it is a pity this area has been targeted. The Joseph Rowntree Trust has said there is a significant inequality in access to justice for deprived communities, and the Minister is on record as saying that we should not have that in terms of access to justice.
If access to legal aid is cut and is not available because centres are closing, it makes the situation more difficult and adds to the waiting lists and inefficiencies of the courts system. In terms of probation and welfare services, we need to look at the whole prisons budget. Here we have a service which is cost effective. One in four people in our prisons is incarcerated for non-payment of fines, and the probation and welfare service could probably deal with many of these people a lot more cost-effectively. We can encourage that service by putting more money in so that it can hire more people and deal with the over-incarceration in our society.
It seems that consultancy has gone mad. On every single one of the sections the consultancy fees have increased three-fold or four-fold, an extra €1million across the board. One might say that this is nothing, but if it continues to grow on that level it is scandalous. I think those are the main points. We will deal with the others on a specific basis.
There is one final issue. When we were looking at——
We want to skip quickly through this——
We looked at the efficiency of the courts system, yet we see a reduction on the maintenance and heating of the court buildings. We need to ensure throughout that the services and buildings that are accessible to the public and in which people are working are properly maintained and heated so that we have the best possible system.
A vast range of issues has been raised by the committee, and if any members want written details from my officials they will provide them in any area which I do not have time to cover.
In regard to the legal aid issue, we seem to have got somewhat off track. The 2004 Estimate in criminal legal aid is an increase of 12% over the 2003 Estimate. The Legal Aid Board grant is up by 5% and the only reduction was one of €4,000 in the grant given to the charitable organisation FLAC, which is down 4%. It is not a question of a reduction in legal aid. The two major items which account for 99% of the budget are significantly up on the previous year's Estimate.
The only jump in the figures in front of us is in regard to the Legal Aid Board and an increase in pay. The rest of the figures are a reduction, as in C1 and C2.
I am talking about the total grant-in-aid for all of those services. Legal aid mainly relates to the provision of professional services. If one has to pay solicitors to give advice one has to pay more for their services. If one looks at the Estimates for the Department, the criminal legal aid Estimate was up 12% on the 2003 Estimate and the civil legal aid Estimate was up 5% on the 2003 Estimate.
Regarding matters like the criminal injuries compensation tribunal, that is a demand-led scheme and the reduction there in all probability reflects the payment of serious levels of compensation in a small number of cases to a number of individuals. It is not a question of my just deciding that less will be paid out in that given year. It is a demand-led scheme.
On Garda numbers——
It is a very substantial decrease of nearly 50%.
What is the increase?
It is a very substantial decrease.
Yes, but the point is——
The Minister should know the reasons for the figures.
The Deputy might not appreciate that it might be that three people would be rendered cripples in wheelchairs as a result of assaults——
I am not talking about what it might be. What is it?
If the Deputy will listen, in any given year very significant sums are handed out. I have seen an individual getting over €1 million. If that does not happen, it does not happen——
We do not want a generalisation. We want the facts. What is the reason for the drop from €12 million to €7 million?
That is the amount of awards that have been paid out——
It may or may not. The Minister is saying it might be. Let us have the answer.
If somebody gets an award, he or she will be paid. That is the way the system works.
We know how the system works. We are looking for an explanation for the drop.
There has been mention of the whole question of Garda numbers, and I repeat what I said last night in Dáil Éireann. The Government made a commitment and it has not abandoned that commitment. Yesterday I got Government permission to reaffirm that commitment, which means that in 2004 we will bring the strength of the Garda Síochána up to 12,200. The money has been provided to do that. It is a matter for next year's Estimates, which we will discuss at next year's committee if I am still here, to deal with how the remaining 1,800 new members are to be recruited.
It is not impossible to do it, and I am quite confident that it will be done. It will be done simply by adapting the training and recruitment mechanisms. It can and will be done. I have spoken——
Does the Minster need money?
Not all that much more capital. As Deputy Hoctor knows, there are fine facilities in Templemore. It is claimed that they are being used to full capacity. In one sense that is true, given the current training techniques. However, one could say that UCD is being used to full capacity at any given stage, but if lectures are rescheduled one can increase the amount of people going through the same lecture hall on the same day. Likewise, it is possible that phase five of the training programme — there are five phases — will be moved out of Templemore to make extra room there. I have discussed this with the Garda Commissioner and am confident it can be done.
Where might that be moved to?
That is a good question. It could be moved to Dublin or elsewhere. I cannot wait for the Grangegorman complex to be built because that is a very substantial five year wait and I am not prepared to wait that long. Apart from increased dormitory accommodation, which can be provided in the Templemore location, and the question of moving phase five, it is possible to do it and I intend that it will be done.
Deputy Jim O'Keeffe mentioned crime figures frequently. The benchmark figure relates to the introduction of PULSE. We are now comparing like with like. Before PULSE, things were written down, annotated and tabulated in an unsatisfactory way. Every incident is now required to be tabulated on the PULSE system, and I regard the benchmark figure as the one which operated when PULSE came fully into operation. I want to make it clear that the figures do show that the overall crime rate for headline offences has gone down.
That is a great tribute to the members of the Garda Síochána. It should not be taken away from them that the figure has gone down and there has been no explosion in crime. In terms of international crime figures, Ireland is at the low end of the spectrum. On matters that could not be concealed — and it is not a question of them not being reported — such as homicides, the number is down very substantially year on year. This may not suit everybody who wants to sell newspapers but it is a fact.
What is the total benchmark figure, and for what year?
The benchmark figure we should operate on is the 2002 figure, the one which would——
That is 106,000, some 20,000 up from the time this Government came into office.
That is the best benchmark figure I can come up with because it compares like with like. There is no point in comparing chalk with cheese. Since PULSE came into operation the Garda faithfully records every incident on it as is required. Thus, if one wants to look for trends one does so within a database, the data on which are comparable over a period of time.
Is the 20,000 increase under this Government from 1998 to 2002 irrelevant?
The other point Deputy Jim O'Keeffe ignores completely is that, as he said himself, we have a rising population and are talking about an absolute number of crimes distributed over a rising and increasingly urbanised population. That has to be taken into account also. The trend is in the right direction, if anybody is willing to give the Garda the credit for what it is actually achieving.
The Minister is looking for the credit.
No, I am not looking for the credit at all. The Garda deserves the credit, and the point I continually make, and it is a very important one, is that by attacking me over crime figures and saying they are bogus, being massaged, that there are lies, damned lies and statistics and all the other phrases I have heard constantly, it is not an attack on me personally because I have a thick skin. It is an attack on the Garda that says its achievements are nothing and that it is not actually having any effect when it is.
People should support the Garda in its achievements rather than simply saying every time they report an achievement that the Minister is spinning on this issue and that in fact the situation is getting worse and worse. The Garda deserves our strong support on these matters.
If the Minister would stop spinning now, that would be the first step.
Let the Minister respond to the matters raised.
The other point I wish to deal with is prisons. There is no doubt that the prison system is in a process of change, and that process has to be driven. I am driving it. Others have stared at Mountjoy and done nothing. I am putting in train the end of Mountjoy. I have been criticised for doing it, and people have said it is the wrong decision, but I am absolutely convinced that it is the right decision. I assure Deputy O'Connor that the new campus will not be in south-west Dublin or anywhere near him. Some 30 sites have been identified, none of which, from memory, is in his area. Certainly, none in his area will be chosen.
I want to build outside Dublin a modern prison where the cells have proper in-cell sanitation; where the gates are all electronically controlled; where there is internal TV monitoring of all corridors and all the rest of it; where labour costs could be very significantly reduced; where the buildings themselves and the atmosphere inside them are healthy; where it will be possible to have proper observation cells and proper medical facilities; and proper facilities to carry out mandatory drug testing which will be introduced so that we will have drug-free prisons.
I agree that drug-free prisons are essential, and I reject the appeasement strategy of a number of do-gooders in our society who somehow believe that our prison system should accept hard drugs within it. It is the very antithesis of reform and rehabilitation that we permit hard drugs in our prisons. I therefore reject ideas such as having needle exchanges in prisons or sterilising fluids for people who are shooting up inside prisons. I regard that as wholly and completely unacceptable.
Drugs are rampant in the prisons. The Minister knows it.
I know that, and I am determined to do something about it, but others in our society who should know better——
The Minister is determined to talk about it.
——are defending the indefensible and saying that we should somehow tolerate drugs and make provision for them by handing out needles and sterilising fluid within prisons. I reject that strategy completely and I think the great majority of people would be with me in that regard.
While agreeing with the Minister, can he do anything now? I know a future prison with all these facilities will make it easier.
Yes, the new prison rules being introduced in the autumn will make provision for mandatory testing of prisoners. That is part of the Government's programme and I intend that it will be implemented. Following from my public commitments in regard to the use of padded cells, the Prison Service is now putting in place a programme of their replacement with proper medical observation units. That process has started, and as soon as the present unrest in the Prison Service and the Presidency is out of the way I intend to get around to inspecting the work that is being done and drive that process forward to completion.
Deputy Jim O'Keeffe raised the issue of the Land Registry, and expenditure on the Land Registry is of the order of €30 million, or whatever is in the Estimate. The receipts from the Land Registry activities are in the region of €60 million.
The Land Registry is making a €30 million profit?
If the Deputy would listen to me for a second rather than looking surprised or shocked. One of my problems is that all of that money goes to the Department of Finance. None of it goes into the Land Registry. Therefore, to buy a new computer in any given year or engage in a new IT project to improve the service, I effectively have to go on my knees to the Department of Finance to ask for more funds even though I can prove that the service is producing a surplus.
The surplus it produces, it is argued, has to go to fund pensions for Land Registry officials and issues such as that and also pay for buildings and so on which it occupies. However, I have no doubt that it would be far more desirable for the Land Registry to be reorganised on a trading basis. In other words, it would be entitled to receive its receivables and would hand up whatever extra money the Department of Finance designated for it at the end of the year as the surplus required to be paid into the central funds. That would be a more intelligent way of doing it than the present system, in which all of its receipts go into the Department and all of the expenditures come out of my Department's budgets.
This is quite a serious issue. The Land Registry is presented in the Minister's Estimates as costing the taxpayer €32 million, but now it appears that it is actually making €32 million in the year. Is there some way that the Land Registry could be set up on a proper stand-alone basis where, even if there are pensions and so on to be paid, they can easily be funded out of the surplus?
Yes, there is a proposal to that effect, but the problem is that if it were to be set up as a full semi-State body its accumulated pension obligations would have to be funded to the order of a couple of hundred million euro. Naturally, the Department of Finance is not willing to write a cheque for that amount. Short of full semi-State body status, there is a halfway house which would allow it to trade on a traded fund basis, that is, to examine its income and expenditure and hand up its surplus. As I cannot go to the Department of Finance and ask for a few hundred million euro to fund its pension funds, it is that middle course that I want to explore.
On that point, does the Minister accept that the Department of Finance has an obligation regarding pension provision? Having taken the surplus for all those years without even acknowledging that there was a surplus, it has a responsibility to support it. The Minister will have the full support of the Opposition for a new approach involving, possibly, an executive agency but I am not sure how it could be done.
I can offer the Deputy a consultancy from the Department to try to persuade the Department of Finance.
I will do it myself in a year or two.
Perhaps in the meantime, in the same way as receipts from manufacturing on the forms in the prisons are referred to in the Estimates, fees and income would also be registered in order that we would see its operation.
I would much prefer that. Let me deal with some of the other points made. Reference was made to the anti-racism awareness programme. The reason expenditure went down this year is that it was a three year programme which came to an end this year. We are putting in place a new programme to replace it and I believe a new head of expenditure will be created next year.
Is the Minister funding any of the 44 bodies in Carmichael House which are now under threat of eviction? Is there anything that can be done by the Department? It is an absolute disgrace that the centre is under such financial pressure.
The Deputy will have to write to me. I am not aware of what he is talking about.
I am aware the Minister has commitments. Let us proceed to Vote 19, subheads A1 to A7. Are they noted?
In the special circumstances of the case we will allow them through today but we will have a proper debate in the future.
Is it agreed to note subheads A8 to A10? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads B1 to B5? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads C1 to C3? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads D1 to D4? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads E1 to E10? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads F1 and F2? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads G1 to G13? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subhead H — appropriation-in-aid? Agreed.
On Vote 20 — Garda Síochána, is it agreed to note subheads A1 to A10? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads B to K, inclusive? Agreed. Regarding subhead F, there was to be an opportunity for the committee to see how it operates.
On Vote 21 — Prisons, is it agreed to note subheads A1 to A6? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads B to D, inclusive? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads E1 to E3? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads F to J, inclusive? Agreed.
On Vote 22 — Courts Service, is it agreed to note subheads A1 to A8? Agreed. Is it agreed to note subheads B and C? Agreed.
On Vote 23 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, is it agreed to note subheads A1 to A8? Agreed.
On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Minister and all of his officials who have attended today. Before the Minister leaves, let me say the committee is very desirous that the Commissions of Investigation Bill be finalised before the summer recess. Can he give us a commitment in that regard?
I will certainly do my best to achieve that. Let me, in turn, ask something of the committee. I have just brought through the Seanad the Civil Liability and Courts Bill 2004 which I am anxious should have an early passage. If I cannot get it through before the autumn, it will be 2005 before it goes into operation. However, in terms of motor insurance premiums and so on, it can have a very significant effect this autumn if it can be put into effect. I, therefore, ask the committee to expedite it.
Regarding those two Bills, we will co-operate in any way we can.
I will also do my bit on both.
We will too. Perhaps we might liaise on them.
Regarding Garda cars, can I expect a written answer?
I will provide the Deputy, and all members of the committee, with a written answer but it is not as easy as the Deputy might think. Custom built cars can end up being very problematic and unsafe. One does not get warranties from the manufacturers and things can begin to go wrong. It is not all one-way traffic. I dealt with this issue at the GRA conference and was surprised when I went into it in greater detail to find that probably the best approach was to do what most of the police forces on these islands did, that is, purchase ordinary cars. There are 19 different brands of car marks being used by the Garda Síochána. On the question of reduced maintenance, the reason was that much money was spent on buying new cars. I remember opening an event in Deputy Hoctor's home town, Nenagh. When I arrived from Portumna, there was a Garda car to meet me coming into the town. It pulled out from a lay-by in front of me and suddenly stopped. The next thing I discovered was that its clutch had collapsed.
They were making a point. A full briefing on the issue could be helpful.
I thank the Minister for his attendance.