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SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 24 May 2005

Vote 37 — Army Pensions (Revised).

I welcome the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, and his officials. I also welcome Deputies Sherlock and Timmins, the Labour Party and Fine Gael spokespersons on defence, respectively. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Estimates falling within the remit of the Department of Defence, Votes 36 and 37. Before we begin, I take the opportunity to commend and praise the work of the Department's officials and the Defence Forces in the action they took in respect of the tragic accident that occurred on 23 May. The select committee sends its condolences and sympathy to the bereaved families and relatives of those who were injured.

The briefing material and the Minister's speaking notes have been circulated to committee members. I remind everyone that we are considering the Estimates and may discuss issues relevant to the individual subheads. Members may not recommend increases or decreases in the Estimates. There will be no votes today.

I am pleased to appear before the select committee today for its consideration of the Defence and Army pensions Estimates for 2005. Before I begin, I express my condolences and sincere sympathy to the families and friends of those who died and were injured in the tragic road accident in County Meath yesterday. I visited Navan and Drogheda last night and the response to this incident has brought home to me, as chairperson of the Government task force on emergency planning, the professionalism of our front line emergency services and other support services in dealing with such incidents.

Emergency planning is a key focus of my remit as Minister for Defence and it was a sad coincidence that the Garda had planned two exercises this week to test inter-agency responses in scenarios similar to the incident that occurred yesterday. In the light of the developing circumstances surrounding yesterday's events, these exercises have been postponed to concentrate resources where they are needed most. I will return to emergency planning issues later.

The Estimates for Defence and Army pensions provide for gross expenditure of €934 million. This is a substantial amount of public funds and represents an overall increase of 5.3% on expenditure in 2004. More than 75% of expenditure is accounted for by pay and pensions. In that regard, the defence organisation's manpower is approximately 11,800, comprising approximately 10,500 in the Permanent Defence Force, 900 civilian employees and approximately 420 civil servants. In addition, the Reserve Defence Forces number more than 13,000 members. The programmes of investment in equipment and facilities which have taken place in recent years will continue this year. They have benefited all sections of the Defence Forces and enable them to discharge their roles at home and overseas in an effective manner.

Delivery of 25 additional armoured personnel carriers from Mowag of Switzerland was completed in September 2004 bringing the total holding of APCs to 65. The total cost of the APC programme was €84 million, including final stage payments of €9 million this year. A total of 22 of the APCs are deployed in Liberia and six in Kosovo and they have worked very well in these environments.

Another significant contract coming to fruition this year concerns the Javelin medium range anti-tank guided weapon system which is being acquired from Raytheon Lockheed Martin in the United States via US foreign military sales at a cost of €13 million. The objective is to give Defence Forces personnel an effective anti-armour capability while on peace support operations. The system will replace the Milan system. The main delivery is scheduled for the middle of this year.

There have been ongoing programmes for the acquisition of nuclear biological chemical, NBC, equipment in recent years and these will continue. The Defence Forces have a range of equipment for monitoring and protecting their members in dealing with NBC threats identified from time to time. This includes approximately 7,000 NBC suits, of which 1,500 were delivered in 2004. It is planned to purchase a further 1,000 NBC suits this year and an additional 1,000 in 2006. The Defence Forces also have sufficient stocks of respirators for each soldier. They have 98 of the most technologically up-to-date chemical agent monitors as well as biological agent detector and screening kits, group decontamination equipment and personal decontamination equipment.

A tender competition for the acquisition of light tactical armoured vehicles commenced in February this year with the issue of a request for proposals document. Nine proposals have been received and are under examination from the technical perspective by a project evaluation team. The second stage will consist of a restricted tender stage involving successful companies from the first stage. The number of vehicles to be acquired will be decided at a later date.

A tender competition is also in train to replace the FN 9 mm browning automatic pistol within the Defence Forces. It is expected that a contract will be placed by the end of the year for the supply of the new pistols. The individual soldier is now required to carry an array of equipment. Accordingly, it is proposed to procure a new lighter protective system consisting of body armour and helmet which is compatible with all current and future systems required for each soldier. It is expected an order will be placed for this equipment later this year.

Within the Air Corps, the eight recently acquired Pilatus PC-9M turbo propeller aircraft have replaced seven Marchetti aircraft in the pilot training role. These modern aircraft ensure the continued training of young cadets to the highest standards. They are capable of being armed, giving them a limited defensive capability. The total cost of the eight aircraft is €60 million, including a final payment of €7.5 million this year. Arrangements are being made for the disposal of the seven Marchetti aircraft by tender competition.

Four utility AB 139 helicopters are being acquired from the Bell Agusta Aerospace Company at a cost of €48 million. Two will be delivered in 2006 and the other two in 2007. Payments for the helicopters are spread over a number of years from 2004 to 2008, including a payment of €4 million this year. The helicopters will be operated by the Air Corps in a general purpose military operational and training role. They will also be used to perform air ambulance, inland search and rescue and aid to the civil community. In addition, two light utility EC 135 helicopters are being acquired from Eurocopter SAS at a cost of €13 million, of which €9.6 million is payable this year, and are scheduled to be delivered in the latter part of the year. These helicopters will be operated primarily in a military pilot and aircrew-training role.

From 1997 to the end of 2004, capital expenditure on the upgrade of barracks accommodation and facilities amounted to more than €192 million. During the same period, expenditure on non-capital maintenance works came to more than €72 million. Major projects have recently been completed at McKee and Cathal Brugha barracks, Dublin, Coolmoney Camp, County Wicklow, Sarsfield Barracks, Limerick, Kickham Barracks, Clonmel, the naval base at Haulbowline, Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, Kilworth Camp, County Cork, Custume Barracks, Athlone and Dun Uí Mhaoliosa, Galway. Other major projects will commence later this year at the Defence Forces training centre at the Curragh, Custume Barracks, Athlone, Sarsfield Barracks, Limerick, Monaghan Barracks, Cathal Brugha Barracks, Dublin, and CoIlins Barracks, Cork.

A significant amount of the funding allocated in recent years for investment programmes in new buildings and equipment was generated by property sales. In the four-year period to the end of 2004, a total of almost €90 million was raised through such sales. The largest sales involved were at Murphy Barracks, Ballincollig, County Cork, for €42 million and Clancy Barracks, Islandbridge, for €25 million. It is expected that sales to the value of €7 million will be completed this year. The latter is included in the amount for appropriations-in-aid in the Defence Estimate. As a result of the investment in modem equipment and facilities in recent years, the Defence Forces are better equipped and trained than ever before to undertake peace support operations.

I saw this at first hand in December last when I accompanied President McAleese on a visit to our troops serving with the United Nations Mission in Liberia. I was very impressed by the professional and dedicated way the men and women of the Defence Forces are carrying out this difficult assignment. A contingent of the Defence Forces has been serving in Liberia since December 2003. Together with an infantry company group from Sweden, it provides the quick reaction force to the UNMIL force commander. Ireland was specifically requested by the UN to participate in a substantive manner in this mission, which is a tribute to the high regard in which the UN holds the Irish Defence Forces. We are committed to remaining with this mission until late 2006.

At present, there are approximately 750 Permanent Defence Force personnel serving in 19 different missions throughout the world. The main commitments are to UNMIL, with 416 personnel, and the NATO-led international security presence in Kosovo, with 207 personnel. In KFOR, the Defence Forces are serving as part of a Finnish battalion. Having regard to the fragility of the peace in Kosovo and subject to ongoing assessments of the situation on the ground, Ireland will continue to maintain a presence in KFOR for some time.

I wish to turn now to defence and security developments within the EU. The ability of the Union to contribute to peacemaking and crisis management continues to be of primary importance to member states and is carried out within the context of European security and defence policy, ESDP. Significant progress in a number of key areas of the ESDP has been made in recent years. The EU Helsinki headline goal, established by the European Council at Helsinki in December 1999, committed the EU to develop the capability to deploy within 60 days, and to sustain for at least one year, forces of up to 60,000 personnel capable of the full range of humanitarian, peacekeeping and crisis management tasks, otherwise known as the Petersberg Tasks. The objective was to achieve the goal in 2003. In June 2003, the Council noted that the EU then had operational capability across the full range of the Petersberg Tasks, while acknowledging that this was limited and constrained by recognised shortfalls.

A significant achievement of the Irish Presidency in the first half of 2004, was the agreement of the new headline goal 2010, which was adopted by the Brussels European Council in June 2004.

Under the new headline goal, member states committed themselves to be able, by 2010, to respond with rapid and decisive action applying a fully coherent approach to the entire spectrum of crisis management operations. A key element of the headline goal 2010 is the ability of the EU to be able to deploy force packages at high readiness, commonly known as rapid response elements or battle groups, in response to a crisis, either as a stand alone force or as an initial part of a larger operation enabling follow-on phases.

The rapid response elements concept is intended as a building block within the overall approach of developing an EU rapid response capability and is complementary to the measures and actions for EU decision-making and planning at political and strategic level. It is but one small element among a wide range of instruments available to the EU to support crisis management interventions. Other instruments include political, diplomatic, economic, financial, reconstruction, judicial, policing and civil administration support.

Work is ongoing within the EU military staff and the Political and Security Committee on the development of various aspects of the rapid response elements concept. As of January 2005, a battle group, including the necessary enablers, has been declared available to the EU in accordance with the initial operational capability requirements. It is planned that the battle group initiative will reach full operational capability from 1 January 2007, with two battle groups on standby in each six-month period to meet any rapid response requirement that might arise.

As the members will be aware, the question of Ireland's potential participation in the rapid response elements concept is currently being examined by an interdepartmental group consisting of representatives of the Department of Defence, the Defence Forces, the Departments of the Taoiseach and Foreign Affairs and the Office of the Attorney General. It is expected that this study will be completed in the coming months, whereupon it will be submitted to me for consideration prior to its submission to the Government. Pending the outcome of that study and a Government decision on the matter, it is not possible to state what Ireland might contribute in terms of capability. That said, the Government supports the development of the EU's rapid response capability in support of UN authorised missions and is positively disposed towards participation in the rapid response elements concept towards that end. However, we must examine in detail the legal, policy, financial and operational issues involved.

A further key development in the ESDP has been the establishment of the European Defence Agency. At the European Council held in Thessaloníki in June 2003, EU leaders agreed to set up an agency in the field of defence capabilities development, research, acquisition and armaments. The agency is now operational, with its senior management in place and a budget and work programme for 2005 approved by defence ministers of the participating member states. The overall aim of the agency is to support member states in their efforts to improve European defence capabilities in support of European security and defence policy.

Since 2003, there have been a number of EU-Ied military and police missions. The largest EU mission to date commenced in December 2004, when the Union took over the NATO-led mission in Bosnia Herzegovina in accordance with a UN Security Council resolution authorising the mission. The mission comprises some 7,000 military personnel including 52 members of the Defence Forces.

In July last year my predecessor, Deputy Michael Smith, officially launched the Reserve Defence Force review implementation plan. Good progress has been made in the interim in consultation with the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association and reserve members generally. The plan is the start of a process that will radically change the structure and configuration of the reserve, while preserving the traditional strengths of the organisation including the spirit of voluntary commitment, maintaining strong links with local communities and a nation-wide geographical spread.

The new organisation will replace An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil with an Army reserve, consisting of both integrated and non-integrated elements. The integrated element will provide personnel to Permanent Defence Force units to bring them up to full operational strength in contingency situations. The larger non-integrated element will provide a reserve for the Army, organised into three brigades.

The Reserve Defence Force's most important contribution will be to support the Permanent Defence Force in its contingency defence roles in emergency situations. In peace time, the main function of the reserve will be to train and prepare for these contingency roles. Members of the FCA already enjoy better clothing, improved equipment and better quality training. As the process develops, there will be additional benefits in a more dynamic role for the reserve, better organisation and structure and opportunities for certain suitably qualified reserve personnel to serve overseas.

As already stated, I chair the Government task force on emergency planning which was established in October 2001. The membership of the task force includes Ministers, senior officials of Departments, senior officers of the Defence Forces and the Garda Síochana and officials of 12 other key public authorities that have a lead or support role in Government emergency planning. The work of the task force continues and meetings are held on a regular basis. The office of emergency planning, which is a joint civil and military office within my Department, supports the work of the task force and continues to work with Departments and other public authorities in order to ensure the best possible use of resources and compatibility between different emergency planning requirements. A key area of activity is the oversight of emergency planning; to refine and develop the arrangements that exist, to continuously improve them through review and revision and to generally provide the basis for an increased confidence in the emergency planning process.

An interdepartmental working group on emergency planning also supports the work of the task force and encompasses all Departments with lead roles in the various Government emergency plans and those key public authorities, including the Defence Forces, which plan to support such activities. This working group, which is chaired by the office of emergency planning, assists in carrying out studies and oversight of emergency planning structures and processes. It is also a forum for the discussion and sharing of information as well as providing strategic guidance to all those involved in emergency planning.

The lead responsibility for specific emergency planning functions remains with the relevant Departments, as do the budgetary and resource management requirements. Emergency plans are co-ordinated by the various lead Departments at a national level and through the local authorities, including the fire service, the Health Service Executive and the Garda divisions, at local and regional level.

Potential threats to the State arising from international terrorism are continuously monitored by those involved, principally the Garda Síochana and the Defence Forces. While the threat to Ireland continues to be assessed as low, the awareness that the situation could change rapidly and with little warning has ensured that vigilance is maintained. As chairperson of the Government task force, I have requested all authorities to regularly review their emergency plans, to revise them as appropriate and to develop structured programmes to exercise such plans. A major review of the Government major emergency planning framework is under way this year. Review and refinement of arrangements will continue to ensure co-ordination of all those responding in order that, should we be unfortunate enough to experience a large-scale emergency, we will be in a position to mount a credible response.

I will continue to report regularly, on a confidential basis, to Government on emergency planning. In my annual report last November, I was pleased to report that there continues to be excellent co-operation between my Department and all other Departments and public authorities, as evidenced by the work of the Government task force, the interdepartmental working group and the office of emergency planning in these vital areas.

I will now update the committee in regard to compensation claims for hearing loss. By 30 April 2005, a total of 16,736 claims had been received from current and former members of the Defence Forces in respect of loss of hearing allegedly caused during their military service. A total of 15,490 claims have been disposed of, mainly through settlements. This leaves a total of 1,246 claims outstanding at the end of April. In July 2002, it was announced that the early settlement scheme would not be used to process any hearing loss claims received after that date. That decision was taken on the grounds that the issue had been in the public domain for over ten years and that it was time to bring it to a conclusion. Any subsequent claims received are generally being contested by the State on the grounds that they are statute barred. To date, the total cost of hearing loss claims is €278 million, including €93 million in plaintiffs' legal costs. The average settlement figure has decreased from €39,431 in 1996 to a current level of approximately €6,000. When plaintiffs' legal costs are included, the cost of settling the outstanding claims currently in hands is estimated at about €15 million.

Turning briefly to pension matters, members will be aware that the main purpose of the Public Service Pensions Act 2004 was to implement the age-related aspects of the public service pensions reform package announced by the Minister for Finance in the 2004 Budget. This announcement followed from consideration of the recommendations of the Commission on Public Service Pensions and the Government's decision to accept the bulk of those recommendations. Chief among the age-related reforms were the removal of the compulsory retirement age for certain categories of new entrants to the public service on or after 1 April 2004 and the raising of the minimum pension age for most new entrants from that date.

Specifically regarding the Defence Forces, the Act in question provides for the making of a new pension scheme to apply to new entrants from 1 April 2004, for a minimum pension age of 50 for new entrant officers and enlisted personnel and for the exclusion of the Defence Forces from the removal of the compulsory retirement age requirement in other areas of the public service. In regard to the latter, it will be appreciated that the nature of military service requires the continued application of appropriate compulsory retirement ages. The detailed terms of the new pension scheme are now under discussion with the RACO and PDFORRA representative associations. Details of individual subheads for both the defence and army pensions estimates have been circulated to the committee and I do not propose to comment any further on them.

I will be pleased to assist members with any queries. If we cannot produce information requested today, I will undertake to obtain it for the committee.

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive submission and join him in extending my sympathy to the families of the bereaved and injured in the terrible tragedy in County Meath. When we hear of young children being killed it resonates with us all.

On the issue of the Defence Forces Estimates, it is striking that somewhere in the region of 75% is spent on pay and pensions. The Defence Vote in total equates approximately with the increase made in the most recent budget for the Department of Health and Children. This is not a reflection on the Department of Defence but it has, for many years, been the poor relation. Matters have improved dramatically in recent years. The Minister referred to equipment and outlined issues concerning Mowag armoured personnel carriers. I know there was a difficulty with metal cracking early on but this was overcome.

I welcome the Minister's courtesy in mentioning the visit Deputy Kenny and I paid to the troops in Kosovo. It was good to be able to see how personal equipment, etc., has improved. I welcome the increased level of professionalism and the examination of lighter personal equipment, which is important.

The Minister outlined a good programme for the purchasing of equipment for the Air Corps but, if memory serves, not much was mentioned about the Naval Service. I do not know if there are any plans to replace some of vessels currently in use.

There is a detailed list of accommodation but the residential or sleeping accommodation in some locations leaves much to be desired because funding was not provided traditionally. I have been concerned in recent years about the fact that even though much money has been invested in accommodation and equipment, this has come from the sale of property.

The difficulty for Government in the years ahead will be twofold, namely, the sustained replenishment and continued improvement of equipment and Ireland's participation in the rapid response elements. Psychologically, this term and not that of "battle groups" should have been used at the beginning because it would have allowed us to dampen the perceived opportunities available to those who are against Ireland pulling its weight in Europe.

The Minister outlined his comprehensive commitment to an overseas service of approximately 750 personnel, which will be difficult to replenish as people are preparing to leave or are coming home. Perhaps I am incorrect but in recent reports the Minister indicated that he is examining the feasibility of introducing legislation to allow members of the Reserve Defence Force to serve overseas. Could he give his view on this topic in his summation?

I welcome the Minister's positive disposition towards participation in the rapid response elements. I understand that the Nordic countries recently combined to form a group. Estonia has joined them, having been a member of the EU for only a year. However, Ireland has not done so. This is holding us back. The Minister stated that the interdepartmental report will be available within a few months and he will, in turn, report to Government but he is not being as up-front as he should be about this. He should outline Ireland's position on the rapid response force. It would not take long to work out the cost and what will be involved. He should not be concerned about muddying the waters in the context of the referendum on the EU constitution. Adopting such an approach will only give fuel to those who perceive danger where none exists. It is important that Ireland's response should be provided more rapidly and it should be dealt with separately from the EU referendum. If the information is available, let us have it.

I refer to emergency planning. I commend those involved in yesterday's incident but I have grave reservations about it. I do not have all the information about how it works and, while I acknowledge the Minister is reviewing such planning, unless we are willing to invest in it, we will only get back what we put in. Yesterday's tragedy was terrible and there will be no greater emergency in the lives of those involved. However, what would be the position as regards fallout from Sellafield? Exercises have been held and papers have been written but I do not have great confidence in the emergency planning. I would like all Departments to make a commitment to carry out an independent audit of their emergency plans. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is appointing consultants to examine its emergency planning. An impression has been created which does not represent the factual position, although I do not have hard evidence that this is the case.

I wish to deal now with pensions. I agree with the proposals of the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, to amend Defence Forces pensions. The non-inclusion of military service allowances for people who retired prior to 1999 has been a thorny issue in recent years. When Deputy Dermot Ahern was Minister for Social and Family Affairs, he published a comprehensive review of pensions and he found that the knock-on cost of including this and other allowances was too high. Has the Minister considered re-examining this issue, given that many people have lost out?

Subhead A.6 refers to the decentralisation programme. How much will the move to the Curragh and Newbridge cost, given that new buildings will be required in the latter location? The allocation to Civil Defence is €500,000 but I do not know how successful it has been.

Subhead H deals with the Air Corps. Will the search and rescue function of the Air Corps be re-established? Will the Minister consider setting funding aside for that? It is regrettable that the Air Corps, through no fault of its own, lost this service. Search and rescue is to the Air Corps what overseas missions are to the Army and this will have a negative impact down the line, which will outweigh the cost of providing the service.

Subhead O concerns third level education. While the allocation has increased slightly, is it proposed to amend the provision of third level education to members of the Defence Forces? I heard a rumour that there may be a move away from putting members through third level education and that more graduates may be taken on instead.

Subhead V deals with Ireland's participation in the EU security and a figure is provided for our contribution to an exercise carried out by one of the groups. What might be the likely cost of participation in such exercises in the future? I will refrain from deliberating on the matter because I sometimes become frustrated when I hear people talk about how we spend money on EU defence. Given that we have gained so much, it is a matter of pulling our weight and making a contribution to a secure international environment. Money spent in this regard is money well spent.

I join the Minister in expressing my condolences and sympathy to the families and relatives of the people who lost their lives yesterday in that very sad accident in County Meath.

On the question of additional funds, will the increase relating to bank escort services go directly to the Minister's Department or will it go into general Exchequer funds?

The Minister referred to properties. As he will be aware, the aerodrome in Fermoy and the barracks at Ballincollig were sold some years ago. If he visits Mallow at some stage, and travels down Fair Street, he will notice the massive record of FCA in the town and the entire region. I previously raised the issue of the dilapidated building that exists in the area. The site looks very bad in an area that is developed and I find it difficult to make excuses for the Defence Forces for not doing something about it.

I want to raise an issue in respect of which there appears to be an anomaly. I am aware of someone who had an Army pension, but when he reached old age pension age, his Army pension was withdrawn. The man was very angry at the time and said he was speaking for other people. Perhaps the Minister can clarify the situation.

I welcome the Minister and his staff to this discussion on the Estimates. I compliment the Minister on the interest he has shown in the military barracks in Summerhill, Nenagh, since his appointment and the swift manner in which he has dealt with correspondence from the town council in regard to leasing out the site for a period of 500 years. This was welcome news to the town council and the local people. Are there details of the lease and the financial agreement to be drawn up with the council? Is it included in the Estimates before us?

The Minister referred to the implementation of the Reserve Defence Force strategy. I know he is already aware of the agreement reached with the Department to provide enhanced accommodation, shower facilities and so on for the members of the FCA. The latter will formally become known later this year as the Reserve Defence Force. It was agreed to provide accommodation but this has not yet happened. Is the funding now in place for that accommodation — in the form of portacabins — as agreed with local Defence Force authorities? If so, perhaps the Minister might indicate when the accommodation will be put in place?

I congratulate the Minister and his officials on the presentation of this briefing material. It is well set out and comprehensive. In addition, the font used is large enough to allow the material to be read clearly.

It is designed for the age profile of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Would the Minister care to respond to the comments made?

I thank Deputies Timmins, Sherlock and Hoctor for their kind comments. On Deputy Timmins's first point, one will find that in countries such as Israel a much larger proportion of expenditure goes on the defence budget because the threat is so much greater. While Defence expenditure may have fallen as a percentage of GNP in the past ten years, it has nevertheless increased substantially in real terms. Savings were obviously made as a result of the reforms in the White Paper. The size of the Army was reduced somewhat and the savings in wages were invested in the Defence Forces. We also agreed to sell off property which was surplus to requirements and, as the Deputy correctly recognised, we have reinvested this in defence. That has certainly helped sustain all the improvements in recent years.

Deputy Timmins asked if we have specific proposals for replacing ships of the Naval Service. We have decided on an eight-ship Naval Service flotilla. The life expectancy of a ship is approximately 30 years. As the Deputy will be aware, we have replaced recently — the first in 1999 and the second in 2001. The target date for replacing the next vessel is late 2007 or early 2008. As already stated, the two we replaced cost €50 million and one could say that a ship costs approximately €30 million nowadays.

Deputy Timmins correctly pointed out that the Government has invested €192 million since 2000 in barracks infrastructure, training and equipment. Some €90 million of that came from the sale of barracks. Obviously, that well is beginning to dry up but I reassure the committee that we are committed to maintaining our programme of investment in improving barracks infrastructure and the equipment and training available to our troops. The fact that there will not be as much property to sell in the future will not affect that.

On the point made about reservists serving overseas, this is part of the plan for the reform of the Reserve Defence Force. Most other countries which contribute troops to the United Nations allow reservists to go overseas. We have decided to do likewise. At present, we are in discussions with the representative associations, not only of the Reserve Defence Force but also with RACO and PDFORRA. A number of issues must be resolved, the first of which is the question of job security which is obviously a concern because these people are holding down jobs. There is also the question of putting adequate training in place so that reservists may serve safely overseas. We must also focus our minds on the question of the type of reservist we will send overseas. It is unlikely that everybody will be allowed to serve overseas and the question is whether we will confine it to people, such as engineers and doctors, with particular specialist knowledge.

I do not doubt that the issue of battle groups will be ventilated again at Question Time on Thursday next. We discussed it yesterday at a European Defence Ministers' meeting in Brussels. Much of what Deputy Timmins says is correct. Regarding multinational battle groups — we will be part of a multinational battle group and will obviously not be providing one on our own — it is clear that there are still major issues outstanding involving how common costs are to be worked out, training, pre-deployment training, replacing people who drop out or replacing an element of a multinational group that drops out. As indicated earlier, it is hoped that by 2007 we will have achieved our goal of having two battle groups on standby. However, that has not yet been agreed. Rather unusually, the chairman asked which of the various member states would volunteer to resolve the issue. There were no volunteers and we must, therefore, go back to the drawing board. There are many issues which have yet to be resolved.

On emergency planning, each Department is the lead Department in its own area. In other words, matters relating to health, such as purchasing vaccines, training people, providing ambulance facilities, are dealt with by the Department of Health or the Health Service Executive. Matters within the remit of the Departments of Transport, the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Defence are dealt with by those Departments. It is our job to co-ordinate the entire operation. In simple terms, it is done by an emergency planning task force which is chaired by me and which includes representatives of the various Departments involved — such as the Departments of Health and Children, Transport and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government — and a number of agencies, such as the Garda Síochána, the Health Service Executive and the Defence Forces.

Since I became Minister for Defence, I have introduced an arrangement whereby the emergency task force will meet once a month in order to remain on top of the issues. There is a back-up group — an interdepartmental planning group — which does much of the preliminary work and research. It provides administrative support to the emergency task force. There is an emergency planning office in the Department of Defence which services the entire operation.

Another initiative I have undertaken since I took over is to increase the number of simulated exercises. I also took the step of inviting members of the media to attend such exercises in order that people will be informed of what is happening and will develop confidence in the system. A simulated exercise involving a train derailment was planned for Maynooth for today but that was cancelled because of what happened in Navan. Ironically, an exercise was planned for Sligo tomorrow which consisted of an accident involving a school bus and two cars. The latter is exactly what happened in Navan. The medical staff in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda informed me that they had planned an exercise of their own at local level, to take place in six weeks' time, for the emergency planning service. Unfortunately, they do not have to go through the exercise now; they have undergone it for real and the services worked extremely well.

On nuclear accidents, we cover everything — from terrorist threats to the State, to the type of tragedy we witnessed in Navan, to nuclear-radiological fallout. A major plan for dealing with nuclear accidents is being drawn up by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and we will be undertaking simulated exercises to see how it works, in practice, in order to remove any glitches from the system.

Deputy Timmins referred to Departments conducting their own audits or of audits being requested from Departments on the state of their emergency planning. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government may be doing something in that regard. I do not know. I could argue that we have an audit once a month when people convene at Government Buildings for a meeting that I chair. I am assisted in that regard by my very able colleague from Kildare, namely, the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Seán Power. We put them through their paces. We want action to be taken by a certain date and then we ask questions. If answers are not forthcoming, people must explain themselves and they must get right before the next day. However, I will consider the suggestion. A meeting of the emergency planning task force will be convened in two weeks and I will raise the issue then.

The Deputy referred to the inclusion of military service allowances in pensions. Arising from a recommendation made in 1990 by the Commission on Remuneration and Conditions of Service in the Defence Forces, known as the Gleeson commission, MSA was made pensionable in the case of personnel retiring on or after 1 August 1990. This approach is fully consistent with public service pensions policy, which provides that the benefit of an allowance being made pensionable for serving personnel does not extend to existing pensions.

The commission specifically addressed the issue of the pensionability of allowances, including the MSA, and the consequences for public service pensioners generally. The commission, having considered the arguments advanced by the various groups affected, together with long-standing public service pensions policy and the substantial cost implications involved, did not recommend an increase for the pensioners concerned, including retired Defence Forces personnel, gardaí, prison officers and teachers. In the context of the Government's subsequent consideration of the commission's report, no change in existing policy on this matter has been either authorised contemplated.

I cannot put a cost on the decentralisation programme. Departmental personnel are moving to Newbridge, where a site has been identified, and the plan is they will be in situ by the end of 2007. Military personnel are moving to the Curragh, where a site is available. Talks are ongoing and detailed planning is under way. It is expected the staff will be in situ by the middle of 2007 but I cannot put a cost on it.

Contrary to popular perception, the Air Corps only provided search and rescue services in one out of four regions, namely, the north-west. Unfortunately, for reasons I have explained in the House on a number of occasions, we decided, in the interest of the safety of those using the high seas, that this needed to be changed and that the arrangements in place in the remainder of the country should apply in the north-west. Following the changeover, that system is working well. However, the new helicopters acquired by the Department will enable the Air Corps to engage in non-maritime search and rescue missions. The new system put in place in the north-west in the interest of providing a 24-hour service is working well.

The Defence Forces are recruiting more graduates. Perhaps the Deputy will elaborate on the information he seeks regarding third level education.

Is the Minister continuing the scheme whereby cadets are sent to third level institutions?

Yes.

I wish to refer now to Ireland's contributions to the EU, which come under a number of subheads. The main allocation is to the European Defence Agency. We contributed to the initial budget but last year that only amounted to €25,000 because the agency was just commencing operations. This year we are contributing to the start-up costs, including the cost of acquiring buildings and so on, and this will amount to €315,000. I was under the impression that Ireland's contribution would reduce following the purchase of buildings and office equipment but I listened carefully to Mr. Solana yesterday in Brussels as he gave us a run down on the matter. Ireland will contribute approximately €300,000 a year. There are also two further smaller contributions to the European satellite agency, which amount to approximately €70,000 this year.

The main element of cost is the common costs of EU missions. These are costs incurred in respect of EU missions from which Ireland does not specifically opt out. We do not avail of the opportunity to opt out of such missions but we constructively abstain from them. The common costs apply in accordance with a specific formula of approximately 1.26% of total cost. This applies regardless of whether our troops are involved. The main cost this year will be the EUFOR operation in Bosnia, to which Ireland's contribution will be approximately €825,000. That is in addition to the 52 troops already involved. Even if there were no troops involved, Ireland would continue to contribute to the common costs in the absence of a constructive abstention.

Deputy Sherlock raised the issue of pensions. As I understand it — I am not an expert in this area — a person is entitled to a pension having served 21 years in the Army. A person who serves for more than 21 years, up to a maximum of 31 years, receives an increment each year and it is added to the amount paid for having completed 21 years service. In addition, no increment is payable for service after the 31 years. Under the scheme, a person who, on reaching the age of 66 years, qualifies for the contributory old age pension loses the increments only and not the pension. Such a person would receive the basic 21-year pension only. That is how the system works.

In reply to Deputy Sherlock's other question about receipts, the money is paid directly to the Department of Defence.

On Deputy Hoctor's question, I am familiar with the situation at Summerhill Barracks in Nenagh. Many stalwarts from the Summerhill Barracks live in my constituency and they visit me regularly to find out about the situation at the barracks. I will write to the Deputy on the matters she has raised. I am currently involved in discussions on such matters with the military authorities. I hope to shortly be in a position to visit Summerhill Barracks to meet my friends and to inspect the situation there.

The Minister will be very welcome.

I thank the Minister for his earlier replies. I have another query in regard to the office of emergency planning. If the Minister identifies as a problem regarding the location of a rail line near a chemical plant and requests the relevant official in the Department of Transport to have it moved and if the Minister for Transport disagrees with the request, by what mechanism can the problem be addressed?

Can we take it that Summerhill Barracks in Nenagh will not be closed?

Perhaps the Minister or his officials might outline in writing to me the position on pensions. It is my understanding that once a person is in receipt of the contributory pension, the Army pension is withdrawn. The Minister did not refer in his speech to the barracks at Fair Street, Mallow. It is not too far from where he lives.

It is too far away.

That barracks is derelict and is an eyesore on a recently redeveloped street. The building which houses the FCA unit is in a despicable, for want of a better word, condition. Perhaps the Minister and his officials will give the matter their urgent attention.

I assure Deputy Sherlock that it was not out of disrespect that I omitted mentioning Mallow, I simply overlooked it. I will have the situation dealt with as a matter of urgency and will communicate with the Deputy on it. I will also put in writing for the Deputy the position on pensions.

Deputy Timmins asked about emergency planning. The purpose of the emergency planning task force is to be able to respond to an emergency, whether the derailment of a train, a bus crash, a bomb at a railway station, a problem at an airport or a nuclear accident.

I am trying to discover how the chain of command works. The Minister for Defence is in charge of the emergency planning task force and I am trying to establish how other Ministers and their Department relate to the emergency planning task force.

The task force responds to emergencies when they happen. If, for example, somebody brought it to my attention that a railway track was too near to a chemical plant, I would certainly raise the issue with the line Minister. If the line Minister was dismissive of the seriousness of the matter, I would raise it at Government level.

Is it agreed that we have considered the following subheads of Vote 36, subheads A.1 to A.7, inclusive, and subheads B to Z, inclusive? Agreed. On Vote 37 — Army Pensions — is it agreed that we have considered subheads A to G, inclusive? Agreed.

I thank members, in particular Deputies Sherlock and Timmins, and the Minister and his officials for their participation in the discussion of the Estimates.

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