Today we are dealing with a Supplementary Estimate in regard to Vote 37 — Army pensions, as referred to the select committee by the Dáil. I welcome the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, and his officials to the meeting. A briefing note providing details of the Supplementary Estimate has been circulated.
Vote 37 — Army Pensions (Supplementary).
I thank the select committee for the opportunity to present for its consideration a Supplementary Estimate for Vote 37 — Army pensions, in the net sum of €1.2 million. The Army pensions Vote covers retired pay-pensions compensation allowances and gratuities payable to, or in respect of, members of the Defence Forces and certain other military organisations. The original Estimate provided a net sum of €169 million and the additional sum of €1.2 million now requested represents less than 1% of the original provision.
Additional funding is required under two subheads of the Vote, namely, subhead B in the sum of €2.815 million and subhead D in the sum of €0.477 million. This aggregate additional requirement of €3.292 million can be funded in part by combined savings of €1.692 million across subheads C, E and F and surplus appropriations-in-aid of €0.4 million.
Subhead B, which is the main subhead of the Vote, covers expenditure and all superannuation-type benefits to former members of the Defence Forces including, chaplains and members of the Army nursing service and their dependants. It accounts for more than 90% of all Army pensions expenditure. There were three increases in pension rates during 2006, two of which were retrospective to 2005, namely, the final phase of the benchmarking increases and increases from 1 June 2005 and 1 December 2005 under Sustaining Progress. The third increase in question is the final phase under Sustaining Progress from 1 June 2006. The original provision of €161.5 million in this subhead will not be adequate to fund all the increases and it is anticipated that an additional €2.815 million will be needed in this regard.
Subhead D covers payments in respect of veterans of the War of Independence. The veterans' pensions were especially increased by 50% from 1 April 2006 in the context of the 90th anniversary of the 1916 Easter Rising. Provision for this increase was not included in the original Estimate and it is anticipated that additional funding of €477,000 is required to cover the cost. Members will have noted the briefing material provided details of the savings of €1.692 million that will arise across various subheads together with surplus appropriations-in-aid of €400,000. The net effect is to reduce the additional amount required by way of the Supplementary Estimate to €1.2 million.
Earlier this year, I announced my intention to issue an official certificate in cases where medals awarded to veterans of the War of Independence had been lost, stolen or destroyed. The certificate confirms that one of the relevant medals had been issued to the named veteran. If more than one medal had been issued originally, a separate certificate could be provided for each. I took the initiative in the context of the settled policy of my Department for many years of replacing medals on a once-only basis on receipt of a bona fide request from a veteran to whom the original medals were awarded. I am pleased to say that the format and design of certificates has been finalised and their issue commenced. Certificates have been issued already in approximately 50 cases and will continue to be issued over the coming months until all applications received have been processed. I take this opportunity to mark the passing of the last two recipients of military service pensions from my Department in respect of active service rendered from 1916 to 1921. Daniel O'Donovan from Kerry and Seán Clancy from Dublin died earlier this year and I extend my sympathies to their families.
Officials of my Department have been in discussions with the representative associations, RACO and PDFORRA, on detailed terms of the new pensions scheme to apply to new entrants to the Defence Forces from April 2004. I am pleased that the discussions are nearly complete and expected to conclude shortly. I thank the Chairman and members for their attention and commend the Supplementary Estimate to them.
I thank the Minister for his presentation on a Supplementary Estimate with which I do not have any difficulty. I join the Minister in expressing sympathy to the O'Donovan and Clancy families on the passing of Daniel O'Donovan and Seán Clancy earlier this year.
The entire committee would like to be associated with those expressions of sympathy.
Would the family of a deceased person who was in the War of Independence be able to apply for a certificate where they were unable to lay their hands on a medal? Can the Minister enlighten the committee on the new pensions scheme? I am aware that a change was made in the budget a couple of years ago, but am not sure at what age the pension is to be paid out. What issues remain to be dealt with in the negotiations on the scheme? Previously, a member of the Defence Forces received a pension after 12 or 21 years at officer level or 21 years at other rank level. Is it correct that one is still entitled to a pension after 21 years of service, but that it will not be paid out until a person reaches 60 or 65 years of age?
Many members of the Army lived in barracks traditionally, though that is no longer the case to the same extent. When they completed their service, they moved out. A home for old soldiers or other form of accommodation for former members of the Defence Forces was established in Limerick some time ago through a local organisation, though I am not sure if the Minister opened it or not. The Irish United Nations Veterans Association, or IUNVA, is an organisation with an office in Arbour Hill, which I have not yet visited to my regret. It does a great deal of good work as does ONE. While I stand to be corrected, I understand that IUNVA does not receive any funding from the State. Will the Minister consider providing both organisations with a small grant to, if nothing else, carry out refurbishment work on their accommodation? My understanding is that IUNVA has a local arrangement with the Defence Forces whereby it is provided with engineering assistance, but such an ad hoc arrangement is not satisfactory. The Minister stated that this year’s Estimates were of the order of approximately €1 billion. Perhaps a couple of hundred thousand euro or even €20,000 or €30,000 could be provided to these organisations.
I welcome the Minister. I have no difficulty with the Supplementary Estimate and, indeed, wonder if we needed to bring in one for €1.2 million, which is a negligible sum in the context of the ups and downs of a typical year. I agree with Deputy Timmins on support for IUNVA from the Department of Defence. While the Minister made a grant available previously for the repair and refurbishment of the old schoolhouse in Arbour Hill, further funding is required to provide IUNVA with a proper meeting place and headquarters. Many veterans live in the general area and it would be useful if a sum of money was made available annually for retired soldiers for miscellaneous purposes.
Up until 1994, members of the Defence Forces could remain in the Army until the age of 60 years. Soldiers must now retire after serving for 21 years or at age 50, at the latest. I would like to see a graph representing the number of Army personnel and the age at which they are accessing their pensions. What impact does this have on the pensions system in the Defence Forces? I understand the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has raised the age of retirement for members of the Garda Síochána from 57 years to 60 years. Gardaí are on active duty and their retirement age of 60 years contrasts with soldiers retiring at age 50 years. Has there been a reassessment of the age limit? I accept that the retirement age for Army officers is higher. I would be interested to learn how the lowering of the retirement age of soldiers has impacted on the pensions scheme as well as the staff profile of the Army?
I wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy to the families of Daniel O'Donovan and Seán Clancy, the last surviving person of that period, and the remarks on their contribution to the War of Independence.
Are Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael to join ranks at this stage?
I would not see that much difference in policy terms, in terms——
Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party.
The two people to whom I referred are from the War of Independence and not from the Civil War days. Perhaps the Minister would refer to the number of surviving members from the Civil War days. In regard to the issuing of certificates in respect of the War of Independence medals that were lost, stolen or destroyed, is it not a fact that many republicans would have left the country because they were faced with prison or emigration, as there was no employment for them after the Civil War? Their relatives would be living in England, the United States and Australia. Has there been an attempt to publicise the scheme for awarding certificates to replace medals that have been lost, destroyed or stolen outside Ireland? Many families who would be entitled to these awards may live abroad and not become aware of them.
I have a few short questions for the Minister in regard to this Supplementary Estimate. Is he satisfied that the pensions paid to many elderly and retired members of the Defence Forces, who served this country well over many years — I am speaking in particular of those now aged 70 or 80 — adequately meet their needs in 2006? My second question is linked to questions asked already by Deputy Costello. I commend the Minister on the manner in which he has dealt with issues relating to veterans of the War of Independence. It is important we remain conscious of the fact that many of these people, who gave so much and fought for this country, left it and died in poverty abroad.
The Minister will be aware of two particular pensioners, Mr. Thomas Kenny and Mr. Joseph Fitzpatrick, survivors of the Niemba massacre. I know he is involved in the inquiry into their case. However, is he aware that one of those survivors, Mr. Joseph Fitzpatrick, is very unhappy and upset about the inquiry? Is the the Minister aware of any other ways this issue could be resolved? Is he aware of plans to award those who died and those who survived the Niemba massacre for their heroic acts?
The Minister mentioned that he is currently involved in discussions with RACO and PDFORRA in regard to the new pension scheme. When does he expect this issue to be resolved? Is he optimistic that PDFORRA will accept the new pensions scheme?
We have all been approached by former members of the Defence Forces in receipt of the Army pension who are faced with a reduction in that payment when they qualify for the old age pension. Perhaps the Minister has corresponded with the select committee on this issue. If not, perhaps he could elaborate on it today or forward a note to me. Is any other group similarly affected? I regularly receive correspondence on this matter from members of the Defence Forces.
The War of Independence was referred to earlier. The old Tom Keogh armoured car, now in the hands of an English collector, is one of two remaining armoured cars, the other being the Slievenamon. Perhaps attempts could be made to track down this vehicle and buy it, to place on display in Collins Barracks.
What happened to the Slievenamon?
It is still there.
If I remember correctly, it was used during the final stages of the war in Sligo. Is there any link between local authorities and the Department in regard to the provision of accommodation for retired or retiring members of the Defence Forces?
Deputy Finian McGrath referred to Ireland's first United Nations mission in the Congo and the Niemba massacre. The Minister implied that he intended to vindicate the two survivors, and those who died, in some way. We spoke earlier about certification in relation to the War of Independence. Could a similar type of certification process be used to cover the first mission in the Congo?
Deputies Timmins and Costello asked me about grant support for IUNVA and ONE. I have made one-off grant payments to each of those organisations to facilitate their very valuable work to make life comfortable for retired members of the Defence Forces. If they wish to approach me again, they know where I am. When they approached me originally, they found me very accommodating. I am in constant touch with the organisations and if they wish to talk to me again, they are more than welcome to do so. I have told them that.
The position on the pensions scheme is as set out in a reply to a parliamentary question earlier this year on the integration of the old age and Army pensions. The pension for 21 years service is a flat rate amount, which varies according to rank. Together with the addition-for-military-service allowance, it currently ranges from €248.35 per week in the case of a private to €370.30 per week in the case of a sergeant-major. The pension is payable for the lifetime of the pensioner.
Where service exceeds 21 years, the pension is increased by an additional flat rate amount, known as an "additional increment", which is currently €8.10 per week for each year of service up to a maximum of 31 years. This additional increment continues to be payable until the pensioner reaches the qualifying age of 66 for an old-age contributory pension or becomes entitled at an earlier age to a social welfare retirement pension at which stage the payment ceases. The maximum personal rate of either social welfare pension is currently €193.30 per week if a person is aged under 80 and is considerably greater than the maximum additional increment of €81 per week after 31 years service when maximum pension is payable.
These arrangements are in accordance with the principle of integrating occupational pensions with social insurance benefits in the case of employees such as NCOs and privates who are fully insured under the Social Welfare Acts. While this principle applies right across the public service and, indeed, in many areas of the private sector, the method of applying the integration principle in the case of retired NCOs and privates is less severe than that applying in other areas of the public service.
The general issue of integration of occupational pensions in the public service was examined by the Commission on Public Service Pensions whose final report of January 2001 has been considered and broadly accepted by the Government. The commission accepted that integration is a fundamental component in the public service pensions framework and was strongly of the view that it should be continued. It did not make any recommendations which would affect the current integration arrangements applicable to retired NCOs and privates.
In answer to Deputy Finian McGrath, I am very confident that the new pensions scheme, which is almost fully negotiated, will soon be the subject of an agreement with RACO and PDFORRA. The new scheme will differ in a number of respects from the existing one. For example, to qualify for a pension under the new scheme, a person must, at minimum, have reached the age of 50. The maximum amount will be paid after 30 years service while a pro rata amount will be paid where a person has served for less time.
Deputy Costello asked if there was a link between the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Department of Defence on the housing of ex-soldiers. No direct link exists. Housing people is a matter for local authorities and is a matter on which the Departments have not engaged. The only link I can think of off the top of my head involves the provision by the Department of Defence to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government of a great deal of valuable land on which to provide social housing as a result of a Government decision.
A total of 525 inquiries have been received since I announced the scheme of certificates to replace lost medals. The number of completed applications received stands at 318 while 315 cases have been processed. Thus far, 247 cases have been ascertained to give rise to an entitlement to certificates. A total of 151 certificates have issued in 51 cases.
I was asked about the situation in Niemba, though the connection to the pensions Estimate is vague.
Perhaps the Minister would prefer not to respond.
I will respond on the issue briefly. The result of questions in the Dáil from Deputies Gregory and Finian McGrath on the Niemba ambush was a detailed examination of what occurred. Different conclusions were reached of which I informed the Dáil and I apologised for any errors that may have arisen in earlier replies given in good faith by my predecessors and based on the available information.
I am aware that there are two survivors, Mr. Kenny and Mr. Fitzpatrick. Mr. Fitzpatrick may be dissatisfied but we appointed a person to conduct the investigation and published the ensuing report. I do not know what else can be done to make people happy in such a situation as the issue of medals is something for the Army to decide that is outside of my remit. I will see that the sacrifice made is commemorated in an appropriate manner that is still under discussion.
What about the 1994 change relating to age group?
There has been no remarkable consequent change in numbers since 1994 and we will get the figures for the Deputy, if he wishes.
Service previously ran until 60 years of age and now runs until 50. Will there not be a fairly dramatic change as a result of this?
That relates to new entrants since 2004 and is still being negotiated.
Could I have the reference number of the parliamentary question reply to which the Minister referred?
It was Question No. 420 of 26 November 2006, asked by my good friend and constituency colleague, Deputy Noonan.