SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 4 Jun 2008

Annual Output Statement 2008.

Vice Chairman (Deputy Dinny McGinley)

The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Annual Output Statement 2008 and revised Estimates for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform group of Votes. The Dáil ordered that the following revised Estimates for public services, inter alia, be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 19 — Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Vote 20 — Garda Síochána; Vote 21 — Prisons; Vote 22 — Courts Service; and Vote 23 — Property Registration Authority.

I thank the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, together with his officials, for attending and assisting our consideration of the Annual Output Statement 2008 and revised Estimates. I propose that we consider the Annual Output Statement 2008 first and then the revised Estimates. Is that agreed? Agreed. I ask the Minister to begin.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern)

I am joined by Mr. Noel Waters, Mr. Seamus Clifford from Killarney, Mr. John Conlon from prisons and Mr. Michael Culhane from the Garda Síochána.

I welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee in connection with the 2008 Estimates and Annual Output Statement 2008 for my Department's group of Votes. This is my first chance to discuss in detail the financial aspects of my new portfolio with the committee and I look forward to an ongoing fruitful interaction on these issues during the course of my term of office.

This will be the second year in which an annual output statement has been produced as part of this process and the new format should make it easier to gain an overview of the Department's proposed expenditure, as well as the outputs and outcome expected to flow from the planned investment. Even in this focused formal, however, the level and range of detail is considerable and I will try to deal with some of this in my opening remarks.

Looked at in the round, the total provision for 2008 amounts to an all-time high of €2.6 billion, an increase of 9% over the 2007 outturn. Rather than simply examining how this is broken down between the five Votes, the Department's output statement adds to this information by accounting for the Department's activity across nine core programmes or pillars. The statement, which has been circulated to the committee members, takes the committee through each of the programme areas, identifying the planned expenditure, broken down into programme and administrative outlay, and also setting out the number of staff employed under each heading. It then sets down specific output commitments which it is intend to deliver on during the course of the year, using the resources provided. In addition, as this is the second such statement, it reports progress on the output undertakings given in 2007.

On that front I am pleased to say that the 2007 targets, which were measurable and ambitious, have in the main been achieved. Where full delivery has not yet been possible, substantial progress is recorded. Of course the outputs and impacts listed are not the only ones which were delivered on in 2007, no more than the targets for 2008 are all that we aim to achieve in the current year, but they represent priority areas on our list of objectives, and they are priorities for us because they are priorities for the public. The considerable resources allocated will be focused on enhancing security in our community and the promotion of a fair society with high quality public services.

The output statement flows from these priorities and we can examine these issues in greater detail. I wish to highlight a number of items in advance which I know will be of particular interest.

At the heart of the community, security, law enforcement and crime prevention programme is an increased Garda Vote, up 11% on the 2007 allocation to €1.616 billion. This funding makes it possible to continue Operation Anvil on a national basis and to implement other intensive policing activity, with a particular emphasis on tackling organised gangland crime as well as road safety enforcement. Garda strength at the end of 2007 was 14,845, exceeding the output statement target of 14,700, and will exceed 15,000 by the start of next year.

These human resources are being matched by investment of €102 million to fund and deploy leading-edge technology to the Garda. Of particular note is the provision for the new digital radio system, which is due to begin rollout this autumn in the Dublin metropolitan region. Full nationwide rollout is then expected to be achieved within a two year period. Other projects include a new automatic number place recognition system, an IT-based major incident system and continued expansion of the successful CCTV programme.

The modernisation programme underway in the Garda organisation complements this investment and the use to which the resources are put will he monitored and reported on. Under the Garda Síochána Act, the Commissioner has prepared an annual policing plan which sets out in detail actions and performance indicators for the reduction of crime in 2008, including specific measures and targets dealing with road safety enforcement.

The community security and law enforcement programme also involves other key agencies involved in tackling crime. Substantial additional resources are being deployed in the Forensic Science Laboratory and a new facility for the State Pathologist's office is also in development. Funding is provided to enable this project commence in 2008, as well as for the recruitment of additional pathologists. Work is also underway on planning the implementation arrangements for a DNA database, which will be of considerable assistance in the investigation of crime.

Turning to the prisons programme, funding for the building programme has been increased by €10 million. It is designed to yield an additional 450 prison spaces across the system by 2009. Funding is also provided to extend the enhanced security measures which have been introduced to combat organised crime activities in the prisons. In particular these include €5 million for an additional 178 staff for special security functions, as well as drug dog units and airport-style search facilities to be installed in all closed prisons. Naturally, progress on the Thornton Hall project features prominently in the prisons programme output statement, and a specific target for 2008 is to finalise the contract with the preferred bidder. Subject to satisfactory completion of the statutory planning process, the expectation is that the contract will be awarded this summer.

The courts programme will include significant investment in capital developments, with €29 million provided for the building programme and £10.8 million for the development over four years of a new ICT strategic plan. Progress on the new criminal courts complex, the largest single project underway, is on target for operational delivery in February 2010. The output statement also documents the advances being made in improving the efficiency and customer focus of court operations through initiatives such as the new central accounting office handling all District Court financial payments, including fines and family law payments, as well as the development of an on-line small claims system.

The promotion of a tolerant and equitable society is also highlighted as a specific programme area within the output statement. On this front I was pleased to be able to launch last week the new "Access for Employment" strand of the 2008 to 2013 equality for women measure. This is one of four strands which will address issues relating to participation by women in employment, business and decision making in civil society. It builds on the successful 2000 to 2007 programme but with €61 million assigned under the national development plan, it has double its predecessor's amount of funding.

The provision of immigration and related services, including the co-ordination of integration policy, also warrants a distinct programme strand, with funding of €147 million and almost 700 staff employed in the various offices and agencies involved in this field. In order to properly meet the challenges presented by immigration we need to pursue a far-sighted, multifaceted and Government-wide approach. Substantial investments are being made in the IT and processing systems for handling visa, immigration and asylum applications which will underpin the comprehensive framework for immigration matters now being set down in the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. A Minister of State with special responsibility for integration policy was appointed last year and an integration unit was established to support him in his mandate to develop, drive and co-ordinate integration policy across a range of Departments, agencies and services. A major injection of funds, more than €9 million, has been provided to this new office to pursue its important mandate.

I also wish to specifically mention the probation service programme which is benefiting from a major expansion of staffing, with 70 additional personnel, as well as from a strategic refocusing of the service's work in contributing to the reduction of offending in our society. A major component of this expansion relates to the development of a dedicated young person probation division with responsibility for full implementation of the sections of the Children Act relating to the probation service. The work of this service is closely related to the youth justice service, which itself is benefiting from an increase of 22% in its funding. This new service brings responsibility for young offenders under one roof for the first time and we are assigning it a priority which I am sure the committee would agree is well founded if we are to tackle offending into the future.

The new service is already engaged in a much needed programme to overhaul and improve youth detention facilities and it has met its 2007 target to expand the Garda youth diversion projects to 100; it is planning to add a further 12 during 2008. The overall plan is to reach 168 projects by the end of 2013. More important than any one specific output, however, is the new strategic and co-ordinated purpose which the service has given to all of the agencies and personnel who work hard at a national and local level to address youth offending.

The final programme area I will mention at this juncture is that relating to the Property Registration Authority. This body, which took over responsibility for the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds in 2006, has carried on the progress already underway in the Land Registry in respect of the digital mapping project and in introducing electronic services. The digital mapping project is, in fact, ahead of schedule and on track to capture 15 counties by the end of the year, including the substantial number of properties in the Dublin county area. Take up of on-line certification and searching facilities is also growing dramatically as the organisation transforms the business of land registration and certification. I will conclude on this point by thanking the Committee for its attention. I look forward to questions from the members.

Vice Chairman

Go raibh maith agat, a Aire. Before calling on Deputy Charles Flanagan, I am obliged to be absent from the meeting for a short time due to a prior commitment. I propose that Deputy Brian O'Shea take the Chair in my absence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

Before you go, Vice Chairman, is it agreed that the committee will suspend for the Order of Business in the House?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I believe we agreed on that practice at the start of the year. The Order of Business will not take place until approximately 4.45 p.m.

Vice Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Brian O'Shea took the Chair.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I thank the Minister for his presentation. A number of issues arise in the presentation that require clarification. Given the time restraints, I will be brief. With regard to the Garda Síochána, I listened carefully to the Minister's remarks regarding an increase in Garda resources. That is both appropriate and necessary given the spiralling increase in the levels of serious crime, gangland activity and murder. The Minister confirmed that Operation Anvil will continue as it is and that there will not be a curtailment of funding for it. I assume the funding for that operation is ring-fenced and will not be subject to alteration. I also hope that later this year Garda overtime for Operation Anvil will not be an issue. Every resource should be made available to ensure that gangland activity is tackled.

The situation is somewhat different in Vote 20 for the Garda Síochána this year having regard to the divisional changes, one of which was only announced last weekend. The decision to change the divisional boundaries to match local authority boundaries will present difficulties in certain areas. In the past, the stations were located in populated areas, particularly in large towns that tend to straddle two counties such as Drogheda in the Minister's constituency, Clonmel in Tipperary and Portarlington in my constituency. In terms of funding and lack of resources, will there be accommodation problems as a result of the changes? In Wicklow, for example, west Wicklow was served by Naas. Now it will be joined with Wexford and other parts of County Wicklow. However, there is no holding facility in west Wicklow and only one road across the mountains. That will give rise to a resource issue for west Wicklow and particularly Baltinglass. There are many other similar examples.

How many gardaí currently have access to corporate e-mail? The issue of e-government has figured prominently in Ministers' targets. Is there a strategy in place regarding corporate e-mail? Last year, it was suggested that only 10% of the force had access to e-mail. There is also the issue of the deteriorating condition of rural Garda stations and the use of the green man, which featured prominently in the divisional changes some years ago when rural stations were closed down or were only open for short periods. They were replaced by the green man. I understand that the green man is suffering ill health in the form of mechanical difficulties. There must be an audit in this area and an examination of the resources that can be made available to ensure there is access to rural Garda stations for members of the public.

In spite of the Minister's comments on educational services, the Estimate for 2008 is less than the provisional outturn for 2007. Nonetheless, 50% of prisoners re-offend within four years of their release, 27% are back in prison within a year and 65% of the adult prison population is illiterate. In St. Patrick's Institution 50% of young offenders are illiterate, yet we are facing a shortfall in the moneys being made available for their education.

The programme for the refurbishment of court houses must move ahead apace. Only yesterday, the facilities in Sligo courthouse had to be relocated to Castlebar, 80 km away. That situation is unsatisfactory. In the context of overall court reform, a strategy is required to separate family law matters from civil and criminal cases, but the necessary changes are not keeping pace with demands. It is 11 years since the Law Reform Commission published a detailed report calling for reform in this area. Earlier this year, we had the Coulter report, which has not been acted upon by way of a strategic analysis.

Vote 23 concerns the Land Registry, the property services agency. I note that the income totals €80 million in fees. It costs a little less than €50 million to run the entire service, yet I understand that an increase in Land Registry fees is in the offing. How can that be? Can the Minister guarantee that there will not be an increase in Land Registry fees that would hit consumers, including house purchasers? At the same time, the Land Registry is performing better than a self-financing body in that it is making a profit for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the order of €30 million.

The Minister referred to the State Laboratory. He will be aware of the report by Professor Kopp, the former head of Sweden's forensic services. He spoke of the resource needs of the national forensic laboratory and last year recommended the provision of 40 additional posts. The then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, committed himself to 20, which is merely half that number. Given that Professor Kopp pointed to the dangers inherent in understaffing the laboratory, stating that the work of the laboratory was seriously hampered by a lack of funding, why have these findings not been implemented? Where are the other 20 appointees that were recommended in his report?

I note there in an increase in funding for the film censor's office from €1.2 million to €1.322 million. Are assistant film censors paid? What qualifications are necessary for employment as a film censor? Having read the website of the Irish Film Censor's office, it seems that one of the criteria for eligibility is membership of or association with the largest political party in the State. Is it necessary to have so many assistant film censors? What exactly is the remit of these eminently-titled individuals? If time permits, I will refer to a number of other issues later.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I thank the Minister for his presentation and for the fact that the documentation presented to us nowadays is a bit more accessible and intelligible than has traditionally been the case. That may be because, like the Minister, I have been off the scene for a while. Perhaps these improvements have been there for some time, but they make matters more intelligible. We are discussing these Estimates in June, but the obvious question for the Minister is how much of the Vote has already been spent. The fact that we are discussing the matter after the event and half the year has elapsed seems to highlight the weakness in public expenditure decision-making. This matter was considered in a report that I brought to the Committee of Public Accounts and subsequently to the Dáil, some of which was taken on board by the current Taoiseach who was then Minister for Finance. Needless to say, it was taken on board as his own work, but I suppose that is the nature of politics.

The big deficiency it identified was that, by definition, the Committee of Public Accounts is an audit committee that goes in after the spend. There is no serious scrutiny or examination before the expenditure is agreed, however. There ought to be parliamentary oversight when expenditure decisions are made, but there is not. How much of the expenditure has already been undertaken? Where does the Minister have discretionary powers in respect of such expenditure?

We are clearly heading into tighter economic and fiscal times. By budget day, there will have been a dramatic fall in revenues available to the Government. I am quite concerned about where the axe might fall in this area. It defeats the purpose of the Oireachtas and the balance between the Oireachtas and the Executive if we are again to be left to discuss these issues after the big decisions have been made. I would like to hear the Minister's thoughts on that point. The Estimate we are now debating was conceived in entirely different times. It is only sinking in generally that we may be heading into a more difficult and prolonged economic downturn than we had anticipated. In those circumstances, I would like to hear the Minister's thoughts on that matter.

The 11% increase in the Garda Síochána Vote is obviously welcome. From my memory of examining the details, there is a significant increase for the Criminal Assets Bureau, for example, which is clearly welcome for all the reasons that Deputy Flanagan dealt with, including gangland crime driven by lucrative profits from drug trafficking. I therefore welcome the increased provision for the Criminal Assets Bureau.

Will the Minister remind us where the moneys are provided for here that should be coming in on the other side of the account as a result of the work of the Criminal Assets Bureau? I appreciate there is a time lag concerning the proceeds of serious crime that are confiscated by the Criminal Assets Bureau, but do they go into the general Exchequer and thus do not feature here at all? What are the approximate comparative costs and moneys that come in?

I wish to ask the Minister about a particular matter that arose from his script. He referred to changes he is providing for to fund the Garda Síochána. One of the posts for which provision is being made is that of head of finance and change management. If I understand the matter correctly, this post, which is critical in nature, has not yet been filled. Is it the intention to fill the post by employing a serving member of the force?

An interesting debate relating to Garda numbers has been ongoing since the 2002 general election. I will not belabour the point but the importance of Garda numbers cannot be overstated. However, it is equally important to discuss the deployment of gardaí and of Garda resources in general. On a number of occasions, I referred to the need to ensure the necessary skills and managerial experience are available in order that Garda resources might be deployed in the best way. I did so not because of any originality on my part but due to the fact that this matter has been commented on by people, including Mr. Justice Morris, whose judgment and opinion I respect. In that context, change management within the Garda Síochána is a major issue.

To date, the Taoiseach has focused on public sector management, reform and organisation, the OECD report, the need to obtain best value for money etc. I have not often heard him refer specifically to the Garda Síochána. It seems, however, that the Garda Síochána ought to be at the heart of the public sector reform to which the Taoiseach has referred. In my view, it is as badly and more needed there than in most other areas.

Will the Minister indicate his intentions regarding the filling of this post? Will he state whether it will just be another promotional post within the Garda hierarchy? I am somewhat concerned about this matter and I hold the view that it would be better if promotions were made outside the political arena entirely. However, that is a discussion for another day.

Deputy Charles Flanagan referred to the use of e-mail within the Garda Síochána — a matter I have raised on a number of occasions by way of parliamentary questions — which relates to public sector and Garda reform and also to whether best management practices are operable within the force. To what extent is e-mail used within the Garda Síochána?

I do not know if the Minister is aware of the muddle that occurred earlier. As Minister, he has the privilege of absenting himself from some of the more difficult schmozzles that take place. For some reason that escapes me, my Opposition colleagues and I have been hearing submissions in respect of Thornton Hall, although we are not promoting it, and neither a Minister nor a Minister of State was present to deal with the matter. The schmozzle that occurred earlier was caused by the fact that we are required to return the motion to the House tomorrow. We will, therefore, have had 24 or 48 hours to consider it. If we were not canvassing in respect of the Lisbon treaty at the weekend, we might have a week's notice in respect of the motion.

The Minister stated that it is one of his objectives that the contract in respect of Thornton Hall should be awarded this summer and that his target for 2008 is to finalise the contract with the preferred bidder. However, the committee has been given only 24 hours to return the motion. I have not yet managed to obtain an answer as to why this is the case. The manner in which we have been required to consider the matter is an invitation to judicial review on the part of some of the interested parties who have competence within the Prisons Act 2007. I ask the Minister to indicate that he would be satisfied if the committee were to return the motion two weeks from tomorrow. This would give us an opportunity to consider it in detail. If the Minister were making a planning application in respect of building a conservatory at the rear of his house, he would be obliged to give the local authority or the planning authority two months notice. We are the planning authority for this prison and we are expected to turn the motion around in 24 hours.

The Minister is committing to the provision of a Garda station at Kilsallaghan. I am sure that is a great idea and we are all in favour of it. What population will be served by this new Garda station? I do not know if the Minister has ever visited west Tallaght. If not, I invite him to do so. Some 30,000 people live in this area but it does not have a Garda station. I represent a constituency which is the same size as Limerick and of which Tallaght forms the major part. Divisional status was accorded to Tallaght in 1997 under the then Minister, Nora Owen. However, this has never been implemented. I do not know if any of the Minister's predecessors briefed him on this matter. The reason divisional status cannot be implemented is that the manpower, resources and technology which would come with such status cannot be accommodated as a result of the absence of the necessary accommodation at Tallaght.

While I am delighted that a Garda station is to be put in place at Kilsallaghan, I met residents in the area who are extremely annoyed that someone has decided to locate a prison there. I only saw approximately 12 houses during my visit. Perhaps I missed a few. I am certainly not arguing against the provision of a Garda station at Kilsallaghan but I am puzzled as to the criteria used to cause the sanctioning of such a station.

I also wish to refer to the Vote for the Irish Prison Service. In the context of value for money, everyone in the country knows that one of the Minister's immediate predecessors was sold a pup. The individual to whom I refer was brilliant at many things and is a very intelligent man. However, as former Deputy Joe Higgins used to say, one would not send him to the Dingle horse fair to buy a pony. The Minister's predecessor paid up to five times the market value for the land at Kilsallaghan. It was made known at the time that the Government had €30 million available and that a site was being sought. Someone, I do not know whom, found such a site. This is always the case when the State lets it be known that there is €30 million available to fund a purchase.

Is it necessary to knock down the Dóchas women's centre? I know little about the principles of penal policy and reform. However, I am informed that this centre is something of which the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform can be rightly proud. It is a new centre and is brilliantly run by those responsible for it. Why is it necessary to demolish the centre? Is it still the intention to proceed with demolition or what is the position?

The idea was that the Irish Prison Service was to be established as a separate, stand-alone quango.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The word "quango" is used in parliamentary questions. I sometimes have difficulty defining what constitutes a quango.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

We are looking forward to the Minister being able to take parliamentary questions without any difficulty and to answer them with the fluency we associate with him. He has been hesitant to date and he does not seem too happy about this marvellous Department into which he has moved. The Minister's new job involves wide-ranging responsibilities.

I am of the impression that the establishment of the Irish Prison Service was nothing more than a branding exercise and that it has been retained as a unit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I accept that different liveries and titles have been introduced but, as far as I can see, it is still being run by the Department. Is it the Minister's intention to allow the Irish Prison Service to evolve in a manner similar to that in which the Courts Service evolved or was the change in respect of it simply and always envisaged as a rebranding exercise?

Will the Acting Chairman indicate if it is intended to discuss matters on a Vote-by-Vote basis? There are a number of issues in respect of which I wish to put questions to the Minister. He referred earlier to the role of the Minister of State with responsibility for integration. In that context, a 400% increase in the allocation relating to the Minister of State's office is being provided. This issue is extremely important. Will the Minister indicate what will be obtained in terms of value for money in respect of this allocation? From what we have seen to date, it seems a private secretary and a scriptwriter would be able to provide the Minister of State with the services he requires. What will be obtained in return for the 400% increase in the allocation? This is an important issue for society. We referred to it tangentially in our debate on the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill. However, nothing is set out in respect of the allocation relating to the office of the Minister of State with responsibility for integration. Staff numbers are provided in respect of other headings. How many staff will be employed in the Minister of State's office? Will the Minister indicate what will be done by the office?

I welcome the allocation in respect of the youth justice service. I am not sure I am familiar with the term "youth justice service". I presume the service emerged out of a reorganisation within the Department and it seems to be concerned with matters of extreme importance in the context of addressing disadvantage, etc. The increase in the allocation is welcome. However, am I correct in stating that the money allocated last year was not spent or am I misreading the position?

The Minister referred to Garda diversion projects which, in my experience, are singularly successful. If the investment in these projects is being increased by the amount provided under the subhead, is there any reason that only 12 additional projects are being put in place this year? In light of the current climate, I would be concerned if we were to begin to introduce cuts in this area. These projects make a valuable contribution to dealing with certain problems in society. If these problems are not dealt with in this fashion, there would be a need to use detention in respect of those who take part in them. This would cost the State a great deal more in the future.

I understand that the Property Registration Authority came into being as a result of the amalgamation of the Registry of Deeds and the Land Registry. A great deal of money is being allocated in respect of the authority. Will the Minister indicate the position as regards the money accrued in this area? I am sure the relevant figure is provided but I appear to have missed it. Is the Property Registration Authority destined to decentralise to Deputy Naughten's constituency? How soon will effect be given to this move? What will happen to the grand old premises, designed by Gandon, where the authority is housed at present?

I wish the Minister all happiness in his new and enormous Department.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Brian O’Shea)

As the Vice Chairman pointed out before he left, we are dealing first with the annual output statement. We will then take the Revised Estimates and deal with the Votes.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the proposals before us. At the outset, I will be parochial and take matters up from where Deputy Rabbitte left them. We look forward to the decentralisation of the Property Registration Authority to Roscommon town. Perhaps the Minister will provide a progress report in respect of this matter and indicate when the decentralisation is expected to be completed.

An interesting situation has arisen in my parish whereby the areas controlled by the relevant Garda divisions will be marked out by a white line painted in the middle of the road outside a public house. The nearest Garda station in the south Roscommon area is located up to one hour's travel from certain communities. However, the stations in Athlone and Ballinasloe are situated within 15 miles of each other. Will the Minister outline the plans relating to this matter? Will a third Garda station be built halfway between the two to which I refer? What is envisaged in this regard? The Minister's predecessor signed off on this matter and I am sure the issues to which I refer were discussed at the time. Perhaps the Minister's officials can brief him on the matter.

The Minister referred to the newly-established integration unit. Will he provide a breakdown of the pay and non-pay elements relating to this unit? Will he also indicate the level of funding available to the unit in respect of supporting community initiatives? I have been informed by certain organisations that the funding relating to integration has dried up. An indication does not yet appear to have been provided with regard to the specific funds that will be made available to these organisations. There have been media reports about racially-motivated assaults and an increase in the number of racist comments being made to migrants who have come to this country. Investment is badly needed in this area in order to break down some of the misconceptions that exist. Will the Minister provide details of the funding that is available to the integration unit to allow it to support some of the extremely valuable community projects that have been in operation for a number of years? These projects will have to be brought to an end if funding is not forthcoming from either the unit or the Department.

I will now turn to programme 6. The Minister stated that substantial investment is being made in the information technology and processing systems for the handling of visa, immigration and asylum applications. My difficulty is I cannot see where this is provided for in the Vote or in programme 6. Funding for the INIS in 2008 has reduced by 20% while the non-pay element has reduced by 40%, which I presume affects the purchase of software and hardware. If significant investment is being made, it is not showing up in the accounts presented to the committee.

The Minister stated 677 staff were employed in this area by the Department on 31 December 2007. I am glad he provided that information because I sought it on 21 May and the Department could not furnish it. What is the current sanctioned staff level under programme 6? I understand it is in excess of 700. In a reply to a parliamentary question I tabled on 4 October 2007 regarding the refugee and asylum offices, I was informed there were 90 vacancies, which equated to one fifth of sanctioned staff. The Minister is faced with tighter finances which must be controlled and managed. It is projected the Department will spend €74.3 million on accommodation for asylum seekers. It would make more sense to make the investment, process the applications to finality and notify people of a decision quickly rather than having them wait up to nine or ten years for decisions with the taxpayer housing them in the intervening period.

The asylum scenario is farcical, as highlighted by the number of cases taken to court and the process that must be followed within the Department. For example, family reunification applications take more than 26 weeks while citizenship applications take approximately three years to process. Under the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill, we have been told there will be additional investment and the applications will be dealt with more quickly but under programme 6, no additional funding is provided to fill staff vacancies and a significant cutback is provided for in the non-pay element of running the service. What the Minister said contradicts the figures before us. The money is being badly spent unless investment is made in staff and equipment to ensure applications are processed quickly. It is unfair that applicants must wait years for decisions, which could be speeded up if additional resources were invested in processing applications which, as a result, would save the taxpayer and the Department money.

I refer to the targeted outputs under programme 6 for 2008. The Minister proposes the establishment of a ministerial council for immigrants. Will he explain this? What is his definition of "immigrants" in this context? His output target for immigration is the publication of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill, which has been achieved. However, he does not mention tackling the major backlog in applications and the delays that discriminate against spouses of citizens and taxpayers funding the system. Absolutely no reference is made to the information technology development the Minister highlighted in his opening contribution. This is not included in the output targets he has set for this year. He is talking the talk but the evidence of delivery is not in the documentation he has presented.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I welcome the Minister and I congratulate him on his promotion to a major Ministry. He will have to examine seriously the causes of crime. We are going nowhere in this debate unless we deal with the issues that lead to young males, in particular, becoming involved in crime. The Minister will have the vision to tackle social and economic disadvantage as part of a strategy to address crime.

I welcome the 11% increase in spending on the 2007 allocation. He referred to Operation Anvil, which is an important strategy in dealing with organised crime. On the basis of his initial observations since taking up office, is it is working well? I did not realise there was a road safety aspect to the operation as I thought it dealt strictly with organised crime.

By the beginning of next year, Garda strength will be 15,000. The public always ask questions of public representatives about the visibility of gardaí in communities on the beat and the management of this task. Has the Minister plans to ensure restructuring by Garda management in order that young community gardaí working eight-hour shifts will spend six hours, for example, in the community rather than being involved in other issues? I visited London a few years ago as a member of this committee and we met community police officers working in the inner city who spend six hours of their shifts in the communities. It was a good example of community policing.

I refer to the drugs issue. I do not know whether the Minister watched the Michael Heaney report on "Prime Time" about the international aspect of this issue and the issue of addicts. Should addicts be treated as patients rather than as criminals in tackling the link between drugs and crime? Will he examine examples of good practice in other countries which have managed to wean many addicts off drugs and into programmes? It is tough for a Minister to distribute drugs but it has led to substantial reductions in petty crime and serious assaults elsewhere. What is his view on this?

With regard to prisons, the allocation to the building programme has increased by €10 million. The Irish Penal Reform Trust appeared before the joint committee earlier and its view is that non-serious offenders should be kept out of prisons in future. Will the expansion in prison capacity provoke changes in sentencing and detention policy leading to an increase in the number of prisoners detained? I would not like this to be a self-fulfilling prophecy where the number of prison places is increased without making a serious attempt to keep non-violent and petty prisoners out of jail. I ask for the Minister's views on the issue. I welcome the allocation of €147 million for immigration and related services and 700 staff. I also welcome the investment in the IT and processing systems, issues which my colleagues and I have raised.

The probation and welfare service is being augmented by 70 additional personnel. It is an excellent service which fits in with some of the issues to which I have referred.

The number of Garda youth diversion projects is being increased to 100 and a further 12 are planned for this year. I emphasise that any justice or crime strategy must provide for creative investment in youth services. Those involved in the local drugs task forces and local anti-drugs groups promote the idea of having sports officers in disadvantaged areas, as well as music and the arts, to help divert young teenagers away from becoming involved in drugs and other forms of anti-social behaviour.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I thank members for their comments and good wishes. It may come as a surprise to Deputy Rabbitte that, if I had my choice, I would have chosen to be assigned this Department earlier.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Is fearr déireannach ná ró-dheireannach.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It would be on top of my list as a preference and it is made all the more pleasurable by the fact that I am dealing with the Deputy.

On the subject of immigration, my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, unfortunately, is abroad on European business liaising with some of his colleagues on the issue of integration to learn from those countries with greater experience. The committee may wish to hear his views on his remit on some future date. I remind it that the Government set up the office of a Minister of State with responsibility for integration and provided it with a budget which in the space of three years has increased from almost zero to €9.2 million. The office has 20 staff. A total of €9.2 million will be expended, with €1 million earmarked for the action plan on racism which is being rolled out very successfully. I am aware of soccer clubs in my own town, including Dundalk FC which has a substantial anti-racism programme. Other League of Ireland teams——

Deputy Finian McGrath

Shelbourne FC.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

——are doing the same. From what I hear on radio they might help to prevent some of the indigenous population from killing or hammering each other after matches. Approximately €500,000 has been allocated to the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism, NCCRI. Payments have also been made to Pobal in the past two years to finalise initiatives under the immigration and integration programme. A total of €717,000 has been allocated to existing and new initiatives under the resettlement programme, while a total of €430,000 has been allocated for small grant schemes to support voluntary and community organisations working with immigrants at community level. As there is no prospect of a reduction in that respect, if the Deputy is aware of any groups with problems, I ask him to inform the Department. A total of €3 million is available for funding new initiatives, faith-based groups, membership organisations and to assist local authorities in dealing with the issue of racism. For instance, in my own county it is mandatory for councillors to attend courses on the issue. My councillors are meeting tonight to receive instruction on racism and associated issues. This programme is the direct result of the initiatives taken by the Minister of State.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

A group which is starting up in the north inner city is attempting to deal with young immigrants who are either parentless or in difficulty. Those working with them are worried there will be serious problems down the line if we do not try to get a grip on the issue now. I am not making a point in favour of my constituency because the group is not based in my constituency but it has persuaded me that there are problems with the small grants section which the Minister said would be available to help.

Acting Chairman

I am sorry, but I must intervene to suspend the sitting. I ask Deputies to return immediately after the Order of Business.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It depends on when the Order of Business finishes as it sometimes seems to go on forever.

Acting Chairman

We have no control over that.

Sitting suspended at 4.55 p.m. and resumed at 5.30 p.m.

Deputy Dinny McGinley took the Chair.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

A further €2.461 million over and above the figure of €9.2 million in the basic integration budget is available for integration related activities through the European Refugee Fund and the European fund for the integration of third country nationals, which is co-ordinated by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Funding is also available through the European Social Fund to promote access to employment for vulnerable immigrants. A sum of €10 million in appropriation fees for visas and immigration fees generally is available in the budget for the Irish naturalisation and immigration service. The general budget of €147.1 million is augmented by a further €10 million in appropriation.

The ministerial council is an advisory body. It advises the Minister. Perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, can give the committee his views on immigration. I concur with the sentiments Deputy Rabbitte has expressed about a specific group. I am not familiar with the group in question. It is an issue of which we are very conscious. The Government has been conscious of the need to ensure immigration takes place. It is interesting that large numbers of people came to this country in a relatively short space of time. There may be a perception that we treat unfairly people who come to this country from other countries. Some of them come here for genuine reasons, while others come here for reasons which are not so genuine. The State has spent €2 billion on immigration issues since 2002. Much of that money was used to employ 700 staff to deal with the strong influx of immigrants coming to this country in a relatively short period.

Deputy Charles Flanagan asked me about Operation Anvil, which commenced in the Dublin metropolitan region in May 2005 and was extended throughout the country in 2006. I can answer his specific question by mentioning that the Garda Commissioner has ring-fenced €20 million of the 2008 Garda budget to ensure the continued operation of Operation Anvil.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

Will it be enough?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes, we understand it will be. It is absolutely ring-fenced. Deputy Finian McGrath asked whether Operation Anvil has led to an appreciable improvement in the figures. The most recent figures available to me, which date from 16 April last, show that the operation has had a significant impact since its inception. Some 906 firearms have been seized in the Dublin metropolitan area. A further 679 firearms have been seized outside the Dublin metropolitan area.

I was also asked about the Garda division boundary changes in counties Wicklow and Meath. The changes affect my constituency of Louth, as the Louth-Meath Garda division is to be divided into two distinct divisions. Two chief superintendents have been appointed in advance of the boundary changes in counties Wicklow and Meath to work out the logistics of the change. A project board has been established under the chairmanship of an assistant commissioner Louis Harkin. All the stakeholders, including the Department and the GRA, are represented on the board. I understand that the accommodation board is chaired by a chief civilian administrator who is responsible for the logistics of the accommodation.

The Garda has identified its information and communications technology strategy as an area of expansion. The organisation's e-mail services, for example, will be expanded as a key priority. This process will continue until 2010. Everyone down to inspector rank has a personal e-mail address. A pilot project is being put in place with a view ultimately to rolling out an e-mail address to each garda. There will be issues in relation to security and evidential matters when e-mails are sent to individual gardaí. I understand that people from other jurisdictions have met the Garda Commissioner to discuss these matters. It seems that there were problems in this regard in the UK. We are trying to learn from their problems as we put the new system in place. I would like to ensure e-mail facilities are available throughout the organisation so the public can contact members of the force. It will have to be done in a way that does not impinge on the evidential requirements which are associated with the environment in which gardaí have to work.

If a fee has to be paid to the Land Registry, it will be relatively small. We are conscious of the manner in which people are affected by the downturn in the economy. There has been and will continue to be a significant requirement for investment in the Property Registration Authority. As I said earlier, the digital mapping project is ahead of schedule.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Does that presume the enactment of the conveyancing Bill?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

No. In what respect?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Is that Bill necessary for e-registration or e-mapping?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

No. I think the e-mapping system has already been rolled out in 15 counties. In 2007, the Criminal Assets Bureau obtained interim orders to the value of €9.8 million and interlocutory orders to the value of €6.5 million. Taxes and interest demanded were in excess of €19 million, approximately €10 million of which was collected. Variation orders to the value of €3.3 million have been made under the Act setting up the bureau. The orders in question have ordered the transfer of funds to the benefit of injured parties. Social welfare savings estimated at more than €550,000 have accrued from the work of the bureau. Social welfare payments of €136,624 were recovered. The 2007 budget of the bureau was €7 million, which is a significant increase on the previous year's budget of €5.1 million.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Does that come in here or does it go into the general fund?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It goes into the general fund. Deputy Rabbitte asked me about the position of Garda director of change management. That position as well as the Garda positions of executive director of information and communications technology and head of legal services were advertised with a closing date of 10 April last. The public competitions in question will be run by the Public Appointments Service.

I was also asked about the civilianisation of the Garda Síochána. In 2007, 300 clerical officers were recruited and assigned to positions in Dublin. The OECD has compiled a report on the need for greater civilianisation at higher, more senior, levels in the force. That point has been accepted. Efforts will be made to implement that recommendation.

The underspend in respect of the Irish youth justice service can be related, by and large, to the construction of centres for young offenders. The anticipated capital demands have not materialised. The centre in Lusk, the main capital demand this year, will come on board in 2008.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Given that the public competition finished in April, will appointments be made soon?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes, I expect that will be the case. It is a matter for the Public Appointments Service and those appointed will be civilians.

Given that funding of €11.9 million has been earmarked for Garda youth diversion projects in 2008, an increase of 21% on the previous year, it is unlikely that numbers will be reduced.

Deputy Naughten raised the decentralisation of the Property Registration Authority to Roscommon. An advance party of 74 staff is located in the temporary office in the town and it is anticipated this office will be fully occupied with up to 90 staff by the end of 2008. The Department has a good record on decentralisation and has fulfilled many of its commitments in that respect. The Land Registry is in situ in Waterford. Deputy Rabbitte asked about its building in Dublin. It will continue to be used.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Will it be used by staff of the Land Registry?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes, for the Dublin area.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The obvious question is whether we will have parallel organisations, one in Dublin and the other down the country.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I do not believe that will be the case. A centralised service will operate in Dublin for each of the regional offices.

The women's prison, which was built in 1999, is too small for the current prisoner population. Originally built for 80 prisoners, its capacity was increased to 85 and it now consistently houses more than 105 prisoners, which is 30% above capacity. The strong advice the Department received was that it would not make sense to have a women's prison at the Dóchas site and in Thornton Hall. The new prison will have sufficient capacity, provide improved facilities and services and its building design will reflect the type of regime required for a female prison in the context of its siting within the overall prison complex. The Dóchas women's prison is part of the Mountjoy Prison complex which will ultimately be sold.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Will an essentially new prison be demolished?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I believe that will be the case.

Deputy Rabbitte asked where stands the budget. We profile the Department's budgetary expenditure on a monthly basis and it is currently spot on. Within its overall budget of €2.6 billion, the Department is €10 million ahead, that is, 1% behind the profile for the end of May.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It has an underspend of €10 million.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Bonuses are due.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I do not get a bonus.

Deputy Denis Naughten

The Minister needs to ensure the Minister for Finance does not find out about the €10 million.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Such underspends occur in all Departments as a result of timing issues. So far this year, €1.1 billion has been spent, of which 65% to 70% is pay related. Discretionary expenditure, in other words, non-pay related spending, amounts to €500 million across all programmes.

Moneys secured by the Criminal Assets Bureau are returned to the Exchequer. Kathleen O'Toole of the Garda Inspectorate is carrying out a review of Garda deployment in terms of rosters and the general operational management within the Garda. Deliberations will take place when the review is completed later this year. I will obtain information on the divisional status of Tallaght for the Deputy. It was strongly advised that there should be a Garda station in the vicinity of Thornton Hall prison to deal with the prison and have a presence in the local community.

I understand the Deputy raised the issue of the committee, which I understand relates to Thornton Hall, and that the Taoiseach has responded that the issue would be discussed again on 17 June and the committee would have time next week to discuss it further.

Deputy Finian McGrath raised the issue of Garda deployment vis-à-vis drugs crime. I saw part of the “Prime Time Investigates” programme broadcast last night, which provided an excellent portrayal of the drugs issue in the global context. The MAOC-N, the maritime analysis and operations centre for narcotics, resulted from an agreement between Ireland, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, France and Portugal . This agreement is a clear example of European Union member states working together to try to ensure the maritime area off the west coast of Europe, including Irish waters, is not used for the importation of narcotics into Europe and Africa.

Vice Chairman

If there are no further questions, we will dispose of the Estimate and output statement.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I wish to raise a number of issues. The sum allocated to the Garda Síochána Complaints Board is 20% higher than for the previous year. One would have expected the allocation to have been substantially reduced, having regard to the inauguration of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. Where stands the Garda Síochána Complaints Board? Why is it costing so much money given that its powers have been assumed, as it were, by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission?

I note the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission requested in March this year that the Minister permit it to effectively opt out of dealing with some complaints because it cannot handle its workload. The commission's budget has been substantially reduced and while I accept more money was probably expended in its first year because more money was required, how does a cut in its funding tally with the complaint made to the Minister that it cannot handle its workload? A delay in dealing with complaints, of which there were 2,500 in the first ten months of the commission's operation, will impact on public confidence. It appears from sources in the Minister's office that he may well be positively disposed towards revising the powers of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission to allow it not to deal with matters of a less serious nature. If there is a question about funding, let us hear about it.

The Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal is experiencing a backlog of cases. Is the tribunal properly functioning? Are new people in charge? Is it operating in an effective and efficient manner? Why is there such a delay in having cases heard?

On criminal legal aid, is the means test being rigorously imposed or does the office of the Minister have the power to ensure there is an appropriate level of means testing for criminal legal aid, having regard to a perception — it may be no more than that — that criminal gang members are availing of legal aid while amassing considerable sums derived from their criminal activity?

The Minister did not respond to my question about Sligo court house, which was refurbished four or five years ago at a cost of €7.3 million. It now has to be vacated and no court hearings can take place because of the unsuitability of the building and, according to the local Bar, the risk of legal action arising from an accident in Sligo court house, which has prompted the court house to relocate to Castlebar some 60 miles away. That is the position within four years of spending €7.3 million on refurbishing the same court house. I urge the Minister to launch an inquiry into the matter to find out what has gone wrong because in spite of spending €7.3 million the building has had to be vacated as it is unsafe.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I heard the Deputy raise that issue elsewhere. I will get some information on the matter as I do not have it to hand.

A total of 31 cases remain to be considered by the Garda complaints board. The Deputy is aware that it is being wound up. The majority of the cases will be submitted to the next board meeting provisionally scheduled for early May. In addition, 31 complaint tribunals remain to be heard and 17 cases remain outstanding at different stages of progress in the courts.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Why has the budget been increased on the 2007 allocation?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The aim is to give the board enough resources to deal with the existing cases. The ombudsman's office is extremely well funded. The reason there appears to be a reduction in the figures is because of the initial acquisition and fitting out of the building, especially the computerisation. It has a staff of approximately 120. A significant level of complaint has been made to it. I was asked about the kind of complaints it accepts. That is something that will be kept under review. The ombudsman ultimately has to make a determination as to whether a complaint comes under its remit. In the initial stages at least the ombudsman has erred on the side of caution in terms of taking on complaints.

In regard to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal, I was in legal practice at the time when Alan Dukes did away with that scheme and I applauded him at that time because anecdotally it appeared there was a significant level of abuse associated with it. It is a cash limited scheme and that is the way it has been in the past. Before the element of pain and suffering was taken out of it, it tended to be used by people to gain a few quid.

The allocation of legal aid is a matter for the courts within the legislation. It is not something that we can determine. I heard what Deputy Flanagan said but there needs to be some back-up as to whether people are using this system as the Deputy indicated. To be fair, the scheme has worked well but we need to keep an eye on it.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

In respect of programme 3, what is the primary legislation referred to that was aimed to become law by mid-2008?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Is it, by any chance the DNA——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It is listed under output targets on page 11 of programme 3 and it relates to family law case progression. The Minister said his aim is to have primary legislation in place by mid-2008. To what legislation does that refer?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I will have to come back to the Deputy on that point. It relates to family law case progression by county registrars. A pilot scheme on case conferences has been successful in narrowing down the issues for trials and facilitating settlement of some or all of the issues between parties. The county registrar can make certain court orders, for example, time for filing of documents, inspection of property, interim maintenance, access orders and orders for discovery.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

What is the name of the Bill that it was hoped to progress?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The reference says, "Subject to legislation being enacted in 2008 this approach will be applied by all county registrars to family law cases". I am not sure of the particular legislation in question.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I have not seen it in the Department schedule. Perhaps I am confusing it with something else.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

There is no name on it yet but the Department is looking——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

When is it hoped that the no-name Bill will be introduced?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Department is currently waiting on clarification from the Attorney General's office on the feasibility in law of assigning county registrars in a support capacity to exercise jurisdiction in case management concurrently with colleagues in high case load counties. It is an attempt to streamline family law cases, which I know from my own contacts in the legal profession, including the county registrar in my county, that the progression of family law cases is a problem. I hope the Deputy will welcome the legislation.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I welcome it in advance and as soon as the Minister gives me the name of the Bill I will welcome it publicly.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I am sorry I was not present for the final part of the Minister's reply but I was watching it on the monitor. Will the Minister give the figure for the staff number that has been sanctioned for the immigration service? I am not an accountant and while I accept the points he made on the €2 billion that has been spent to date, I cannot see where the money is set aside for this investment that is taking place in IT, which we all accept is urgently needed. Perhaps the Minister will point it out to me.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The 700 staff are existing Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform staff.

Deputy Denis Naughten

What is the current sanctioned level of staff for immigration and related services?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is part of the overall staff complement. It is ultimately a matter for the Secretary General to decide but it is part of the overall figure for the Department.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Based on the October figures, which are the most recent ones I could get, the refugee and asylum section was down by 90 staff.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I do not believe that is correct.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Does that mean things have changed since October?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I will get the details for the Deputy. I do not believe the figure of 90 staff is correct.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I have been informed in a reply to a parliamentary question that more than 700 staff are sanctioned in that area but it appears that no one can give me a definitive figure. Will the Minister outline the position on IT development?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The spend on IT for last year was €23 million and the allocation for this year is €33 million.

Deputy Denis Naughten

That is just in the immigration area.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, yes.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Minister and his officials. We have completed our consideration of the Revised Estimates for Votes 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23. Under Standing Order 86.2, the message to be sent to the Dáil by the clerk is deemed to be part of the report of the committee.