SELECT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 2010

2009 Annual Output Statement

Vice Chairman

The purpose of this meeting is to consider the 2009 annual output statement and Revised Estimates for the Votes for the Department of Justice and Law Reform. I propose that we consider the annual output statement and the Revised Estimates together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Dáil ordered that the following Revised Estimates for Public Services be referred to the committee for consideration: Vote 19 - Department of Justice and Law Reform; Vote 20 - Garda Síochána; Vote 21 - Prisons; Vote 22 - Courts Service, and Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority.

I thank the Minister for Justice and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and his officials for attending and assisting in our consideration of the annual output statement and Revised Estimates.

Minister for Justice and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern)

There will not be a problem with mobile phones because they do not work in this room, as one cannot get a signal. I will go through the presentation quickly as the meeting started late. I will touch on a number of the key points.

The Department of Justice and Law Reform Vote group had to deliver its proportion of savings in accordance with the budgetary strategy laid out by the Minister for Finance. In all, payroll reductions are in the region of €130 million when compared to the figures for 2009. Further savings across other subheads are realised. Despite this, a gross allocation of over €2.465 billion is available to the justice sector in 2010, even after allowing for the fact that €22 million in funding has been transferred to the Department of Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs following the transfer of departmental responsibility for equality, integration, disability and human rights functions.

The gross allocation for 2010 is only 4% less than the corresponding allocation in 2009. Ultimately, pay and pensions account for 77% of current expenditure across the Vote. The gross amount of the Garda Vote is €1.5 billion. In addition, the allocations for support services such as the Criminal Assets Bureau and forensic science and State pathology laboratories have increased significantly relative to the expenditure outturn in these areas in 2009. I am pleased to be able to maintain the overtime budget for the Garda Síochána at the same level as 2009, that is, €80 million - there was no reduction in that. In addition, continued resources for the proceeds of crime and money laundering legislation have had to be made available.

Funding has been provided in 2010, and will be again in 2011, for the development of a new building for the State pathologist's office. This is a collaboration between the Department and Dublin City Council, and will relate to a new shared building in the grounds of the fire brigade training centre in Marino for the State Pathology Service and the Dublin city morgue.

Additional funding of more than €4 million has been provided in respect of the forensic science laboratory for 2010 also. The OPW is to construct new specialist forensic science laboratories in Backweston. It is scheduled to go to tender later this year, and it will take two years. The new facilities will house the new national DNA database but also meet domestic and international obligations. It will allow the State to meet the demand for the analysis of drugs and psychoactive substances such as those found in head shops, which is something relevant to the Bill we published last week.

There has been a considerable increase in Garda resources in recent years. The number of attested members has risen from 10,968 at the end of 1997 to 14,594 in the most recent figures of 30 April 2010. My priority is to maintain Garda operational strength, and a new recruitment campaign has been launched recently.

Significant funding has been provided in the Garda Vote for the continued roll-out of the national digital radio system. The roll-out is at an advanced stage. All divisions within the Dublin metropolitan, eastern and southern regions have now successfully migrated to the new system. Roll-out in the western region has now commenced in the Clare division and both the western and south-eastern regions are expected to be completed by the end. Nationwide roll-out is expected to be completed by the first quarter of 2011.

On the prisons programme, the gross estimate for prisons is €352.1 million. In addition to the ongoing day-to-day costs of maintaining an expanding prison population, nearly €40 million has been provided for the prison building programme. This will allow for completion of the fit-out of the new block in Wheatfield which will provide a further 176 spacious cells with full in-cell sanitation and showers in 2010. In addition, work is due to commence on converting an administrative block on the Dóchas site into a new accommodation block. This will provide another 50 spaces.

It is planned to proceed in August/September with an accommodation block in the Portlaoise/Midlands prisons complex which will provide 176 large-size prison cells with full in-cell sanitation. The tender will be issued this month and the scheduled commencement of construction involves a target date for completion at the end 2011/early 2012.

On Thornton Hall, tenders for the construction of the road were published in March and tenders for the construction of the perimeter wall will be published in September. Construction of the dedicated access route is expected to commence in July and should take six months. Construction on the perimeter wall is expected to commence in January 2011 and be completed by January 2012.

The procurement process for the design and construction of the various buildings that will make up the prison campus at Thornton is expected to commence in December. Construction of the prison is anticipated to commence in late 2012. The new prison will accommodate 1,400 prisoners, with operational flexibility to accommodate up to 2,200 prisoners.

On the Courts Vote, the Courts Service gross allocation of €148.7 million is 18% higher than the expenditure for 2009. This is to account for the inclusion of an annual unitary payment of more than €21 million and the once-off VAT payment of €21 million on the new criminal courts complex. The bulk of the criminal court has been centralised in this building. Approximately 2,500 members of the public and practitioners come through the main entrance daily.

On Vote 23 for the Property Registration Authority, the net Estimate is €38.749 million. The bulk of this relates to salaries, which account for €28.532 million or 74% of the total allocation. A total of €3.130 million, being 8% of the total allocation for 2010, has been provided in subhead A5 for computerisation and systems development. The major capital project within these subheads is digital mapping, for which provision of €1.5 million is made for computer hardware, software and outsourced data conversion.

I am pleased to report that the digital mapping project will be completed ahead of time and within budget. The overall cost of the project is €25.6 million, some 58% of which related to payment to the Ordnance Survey office. The digital map will result in the creation of a fully electronic land register with some 2.6 million land parcels and 6.4 million records computerised and available for inspection on-line.

I thank the members for their consideration of the Estimate.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

In view of the lack of time, I will confine my remarks to a number of questions to the Minister.

On the Garda Síochána Revised Estimate, there has been considerable speculation and a number of appointments were made to address last year where an unprecedented 800 members of the Garda force retired, the reasons for which were varied but the Government pension issues was one. There was not only an experience drain, but an expertise drain. As of today or the most recent date possible, what is the position on the appointments, given that the following retired: 12 chief superintendents, 26 superintendents - I note 22 new superintendents were appointed last week, which is five short of the number that retired - 31 inspectors, 166 sergeants and 466 gardaí? How many of these posts have been filled, and in what ranks?

Has the Minister aired concern with his colleague, the Minister for Finance, on the matter of purchase of vehicles? Reports state that more than 700 garda squad cars were bought by the State without any discount being secured. Some of them ended up in storage for a year and a half, particularly under the contract with the Ford motor company. Recently, the Committee of Public Accounts recommended that the Garda modernise its commissioning system to avoid having to keep new vehicles in storage for a prolonged period. Last week, members of the Garda Síochána complained at the state of the fleet. While the matter is not directly under the Minister's jurisdiction, I wonder if his concern has been brought to the table of his colleague.

On data protection, on which there is not by any means big spending, early this year it was suggested that gardaí were forced because of resource issues to use personal mobile phones and personal laptops. This is a matter of some concern. I was in contact with the Data Protection Commissioner and I wonder if the Minister will confirm the position regarding the use by members of the Garda Síochána of personal laptops. I would have thought that it was less than appropriate for personal laptops and personal mobile phones to be used for Garda activity. Can the Minister confirm how widespread the practice might be, and whether such personal equipment can only be used if subject to a high level of encryption. I note comments of the Data Protection Office to the effect that the use of personal computers and other mobile devices should be taken to comply with the security obligations of that Act.

On the matter of the 2010 output from prisons, the real and difficult issues in the prison system are highlighted again today in the national newspapers. I wonder if it is time to review the role and function of prison because the revolving door or bums on seats system is not really working. It is giving rise to a situation where the number of prisoners in the State is at its highest for quite some time. It is far more than numbers and spending on prisons. We need to address what happens post-prison release, and the role and function of prisons.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The output statement is helpful and meets some of the targets set down for it in terms of accessibility and transparency. I notice it lists the staff's requirement to show courtesy, integrity and openness in their dealings. I must say, in so far as I deal with the Minister's staff, that is one standard that is met, on which I compliment them.

It is claimed in the statement that the Minister is pleased to report that overall the targets have largely been delivered on. In the cynical world in which we live, if one of these days a Minister were to come in and say that because it was a very wet summer last year the targets were not delivered, we would all sit up. I am reminded of this by having looked at the Department of Finance website, which praises itself on having delivered on its targets. I do not suppose I need to labour the point. Having said that, I am praiseworthy of the efforts being made within financial constraints to do the difficult task that is being done.

I presume the gross allocation is €2.487 billion and that the €22 million transferred is a genuine €22 million. Has all that realignment happened? Is it functioning outside the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform? Have people been physically relocated out of the Department of Justice and Law Reform? Has responsibility for the troublesome areas of human rights and equality gone somewhere else? Last year, we got replies in respect of the forensic science laboratory. Is that not running considerably behind time judging from what the Minister told us last year? Is that coming out of the Department's capital budget or is it an OPW construction? How is it dealt with in the accounts? The Minister indicated that the procurement phase is under way for the State Pathologist's office. Has a contractor been engaged for that task?

In respect of the Garda Síochána, I am interested in the answer to the question Deputy Charles Flanagan asked. Will the Minister give us more detail on the Garda recruitment campaign that is under way? When did gardaí last emerge for attestation from Templemore? How long has the facility been unused? Is it used for in-service training when it is not training new gardaí? Based on that particular statement, how many will be taken into recruitment and when will this happen? From my recollection of last year, I understood that the new radio system was to have been rolled out in the early part of this year. Is that not right?

Will the Minister respond to the views of the inspector of prisons, Judge Michael Reilly? He seems to bear out commentary that one hears from people who were familiar with this area that some of our prisons - in particular Mountjoy - are dangerously overcrowded and we are inviting trouble in that regard. According to Judge Reilly, it is between 20% and 25% overcrowded, which he regards as unsafe. Is it a pure coincidence that the new block at Wheatfield and the undertaking at Portlaoise provide 176 spaces in each case? I do not know why the Minister tells us that they are spacious cells. Does that mean that we will be putting a few people in there together or that the prisoners can watch the World Cup and imitate it when they get bored after "Après Match”?

Over a number of nights we saw images on our televisions of people queuing around a building for visas to exit the country temporarily and get back in. In many cases these were people we had solicited and induced here with the prospect of employment. I am sure the Minister will agree that was a pretty shocking image. If Irish people in London or Chicago were treated in that fashion, we would be quite properly outraged and would protest to the respective embassies of those countries or any other country where Irish people are immigrants. Is that situation under control? What progress has been made in dealing with it?

I compliment the Minister and the section on security, and the performance of the relevant members of the Garda Síochána in respect of dealing with the threat from so-called dissidents. I was in Stormont yesterday on other business and the matter was being discussed in respect of one particular threatened or near bombing recently. There is considerable praise for the work of the security services here and their contribution in that regard.

I understand we are mapping all the land parcels around the country and I presume Thornton Hall has been mapped in that regard. As we do not have a preferred bidder, who is building this wall? Is it the local authority? Is it a community project? Are we any closer to knowing what will be inside it after the wall is built? Are we trying to recruit another preferred bidder? Where does all that stand? When it collapsed, the Minister announced that within weeks he would have it operational again. On this side of the House, we were very tolerant because of the financial situation in not pursuing him on his promise. However, a year has now elapsed since the collapse. While it is psychologically comforting to know there will be a big wall around a field, will it progress beyond that?

Are the annual unitary payment and the rather heavy VAT payment on the new courts complex standard payments that will recur to the PPP? Is that a reimbursement of the public private partnership amount? It is not just a once-off payment.

I saw somewhere in the paperwork that one of the targets for the year is to get the property services authority up and running, or "enactment of the legislation to establish the property services regulatory authority on a statutory basis". What is involved in that? I thought we enacted that Bill a long time ago. Is there a Bill separate from the Land Conveyancing Law Reform Act to establish the authority?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It deals with the regulation of letting agents, auctioneers, etc.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Yes.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

There is an interim board with offices in Navan. It is up and running on an interim basis and this is just to finalise its establishment. It flows into the issue of multi-unit developments; it is one of three sides in a triangle. There are a couple of issues.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

When the Minister replies, will he comment on the amended draft CCTV standard, which is at public consultation stage with the aim of commencing licensing? I would like to understand what that means. This issue has been raised by various community organisations, etc., and I presume there is a financial consideration to be taken into account.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I thank Deputies, and Deputy Rabbitte in particular. I do not think I have ever received as many compliments in one session for me and my Department. There must be something in the air.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The Minister should enjoy it.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I acknowledge the compliments passed to the Garda Síochána and the Department in trying financial circumstances. I was asked about the purchase of vehicles last year, as the Comptroller and Auditor General stated that at some stage in 2007, before my time as Minister for Justice and Law Reform, the Department and the Garda Síochána bought too many cars and they were in some warehouse. My attitude at that stage was to compliment them on having the foresight to purchase those in advance. If they had tried to make such purchases over the past two years, they would not have received the money from the Department of Finance. Instead of berating them, I would have thought they should be complimented.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It is a pity the Minister did not consult them about fiscal rectitude as they may have told us the crash was coming.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Perhaps they saw something coming.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It is nice to see that those people buying Garda cars saw what the rest of the Government could not.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It is the old idea that if the money is there, it will be spent rather than given back to the Department of Finance.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The former Minister for Finance, Charles McCreevy, was the last Minister I heard say that.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

There are 2,812 cars and the majority, or 65%, are under four years old. As many new cars were purchased in and around 2007, the age of the fleet is probably one of the youngest in relatively recent times. We clearly keep a close eye on some of the fleet and are in discussion with the Garda Síochána and the Department of Finance with a view to having some resources this year to purchase additional new Garda cars on a much more modest basis. There will be no splurge like the last time.

On the personal mobile telephone issue, we have offices up and running in Castlebar and every Garda is provided with a mobile telephone for operational duty. They have a direct line to Castlebar, where the call centre is, and all incidents are reported for entry into PULSE. The telephones can also be used to contact local district stations and emergency numbers. There is no necessity for a garda to use personal mobile telephones.

I can provide some important statistics on the use of personal laptops. Some of the comment has been exaggerated, as has the issue of car age. There are almost 10 million PULSE transactions per year, with 2.5 million electronic transactions with the courts. There almost 1 million automated biometric identification system and automated fingerprint identification system transactions per year. There are almost 2 million e-mails per year and approximately 250,000 terrestrial trunked radio, TETRA, transactions per week.

There are 8,000 PCs and 1,000 laptops deployed by the State to the Garda force, and they are all encrypted as required. Some €12 million in consultancy savings were made in 2009, and with the roll-out of digital radio there is less likelihood of people using e-mails or laptops.

I thank Deputy Rabbitte for his comments on the output statement. With regard to the €22 million gone with the various sections that have left the Department, 180 staff have moved, with 30 from the head office and the others from various agencies. Some €22 million has passed from the Department's Vote.

On the State pathology office, I am told a firm has been chosen and there have been discussions on the required documentation. That has not slipped. The forensic science laboratory is primarily an Office of Public Works project. There is €4.1 million in our Estimate for the DNA database; responsibility for the building is primarily with the OPW, although we have some input on furnishing and equipment.

Templemore has been used fairly significantly over the past year and there are still gardaí in the system. Some 180 were attested last week and gardaí attend on a constant basis for retraining in various aspects. For example, we have rolled out probably one of our most successful initiatives, anecdotally, which is pepper spray. Anybody speaking with gardaí will know it is one of the more significant tools given to the force recently. Every garda must go through a level of training in the programme and this would take in 14,000 gardaí, or the number which will have pepper spray at any given time. That is part of the training programme in Templemore.

Both Deputies raised the issue of recruitment. It is fair that the Minister for Finance has given leeway in the lifting of the moratorium in order to replace significant numbers of senior gardaí. The Government has approved two new assistant commissioners, nine chief superintendents and two superintendents. In addition, 28 inspectors and 154 sergeants were promoted. There are 40 sergeants remaining to be promoted on the 2009 sergeant promotion list and 22 superintendents were notified publicly last week.

We have made significant changes in this area to meet the needs for the more than usual number of retirements which took place last year. I do not anticipate that this year will see the same level of retirements as last year, when there were 776.

In respect of prisons, Deputy Rabbitte referred to-----

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

What does the leeway mean in the context of the recruitment of young gardaí?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I was referring to leeway in respect of senior gardaí.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I appreciate that. However, did I not read in the newspapers that the recruitment of young gardaí has recommenced?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes, the advertisements have already been submitted and some 15,000 people applied. Their applications will be evaluated by the Public Appointments Service and successful candidates will be placed on a panel. We have effectively reached the end of the existing panel.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

What is the current position with regard to the existing panel?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I am informed that approximately 150 to 200 are left on that panel. The Public Appointments Service, not the Department, is responsible for administering the panel. The 150 to 200 who are left on that panel will be taken on before any new applicants will be offered employment.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

So everyone on the existing panel will be included in the new batch.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

They will be the first people to be taken on in the new recruitment drive.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

When will the mothers and fathers whose sons and daughters are on the panel and who are going to have a bright future in the Garda Síochána know when their children will be taken on?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It will not be this year, it will be next year. It will take some time to put the panels together and it will then depend on the number of retirements that occur. We have to keep the number of active gardaí at a certain level which means that the more retirements there are, the more staff we will be obliged to take on. If the level of retirements matched that which obtained last year, we would be obliged to take on significant numbers of new officers. If it is at the normal average of 400 and in light of the numbers on the existing panel, we might not be obliged to take on that many new officers. To a certain extent, it is a moving target. We will know more towards the end of the year.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Did the Minister state that there are 150 left on the existing panel?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes, that is what the information with which I have been presented indicates.

With regard to prisons, it is no coincidence that the blocks in question are of the same design. They are standard, purpose-built blocks. If members visit prisons where extensions have been constructed, they will see that the design is fairly standard. The cells are spacious because there is a possibility that prisoners may be obliged to double up if necessary.

On visas, even though the weather was quite good recently, I would be concerned about people queuing outside offices. This is an matter of concern to the Department. It must be stated that it is a residual issue which flows from the recent industrial action that was taken. If the Croke Park agreement is accepted, I am of the view that the situation will be ameliorated. There was an unexpected surge in applications, which took everyone by surprise. As a result, it was necessary to take on additional staff or redeploy existing staff. Discussions have taken place between management and the unions in respect of this matter.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

That was a major blip. There were literally hundreds of people in the queue, some of whom had extremely sad tales to tell. If Irish citizens were treated in that way in another jurisdiction, the Minister would, quite properly, be the first to protest.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Absolutely. However, I can only operate within the industrial relations architecture that exists. It is somewhat similar to what is happening at the Passport Office. We would like to redeploy staff to deal with the backlogs, but we are not the authors of our own destiny in that regard and we are obliged to obtain the co-operation of the unions.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Some of those to whom I refer have e-mailed members and attended their clinics. What is the reasonable expectation for the summer months in respect of their applications?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I am of the view that this issue will be resolved. A meeting is taking place tomorrow with representatives from the CPSU, the purpose of which is to try to bring the matter to a conclusion.

On the Thornton Hall project, tenders have gone out in respect of the building of the wall. As already stated, construction of the access road is to commence in July and it is hoped that building of the wall will begin late this year or early next year. It is then intended to proceed to construct, within the wall, modular units that are similar to those to be used, and which will give rise to an additional 300 places, on the Midlands Prison project. The cost is expected to be €29 million. Over time and within the perimeter wall at Thornton Hall, we will construct modular units capable of housing 300 prisoners until we arrive at the overall figure of 1,400 places that was originally anticipated in respect of this project. With doubling up, there will eventually be up to 2,100 places at Thornton Hall.

This is a completely new way of operating. I considered the possibility of proceeding with the project on a PPP basis but in view of the fact that the economic circumstances which previously obtained are not longer present, the quickest way to complete it is to proceed as we are now doing. I understand from my officials that proceeding in this way is not unusual because Clover Hill Prison and Wheatfield Prison were both built in a similar fashion, that is, the wall was constructed first and the units then followed. The same will happen, and quite quickly, at Thornton Hall.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Did the Minister state that it is going to be a direct project and not a PPP?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It will not be a PPP. Let us consider the Deputy's point in respect of the new criminal courts complex. The VAT for such projects is a once-off payment. However, the unitary payment is €21 million out of current expenditure over 25 years. If one considers what the cost would have been in the context of a much larger project at Thornton Hall, it is obvious that over 25 years we will still be paying substantial amounts. From a value for money point of view, however, a block that can accommodate 300 can be built for €29 million - which is the case with regard to the Midlands Prison project - so it would make more sense to proceed with projects as required and as money permits.

The Department has worked on this matter in conjunction with the Department of Finance, which clearly understands the position regarding the crisis relating to the numbers in our prisons, and there is an understanding that we can proceed on the basis I have outlined in order that we can put in place the required prison spaces much more quickly than if we proceeded with a much larger project.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Will the OPW be doing the work or will the Department tender for the services of a building company?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It will probably be done in the way it has been done in respect of the Midlands Prison project, namely, the construction phase will be put out to tender. The Department will handle the matter in that way. The estimate for the Midlands Prison project is €29 million but we hope it will come in much cheaper than that.

On the community CCTV programme, the target and the outputs statement relates to the licensing of CCTV installations contracting firms. Documentation on protocols are in place following consultation with industry. Issues that arose due to different standards among contractors are now resolved and licensing is due to commence shortly.

We have Garda CCTV cameras in major centres like my home town, Drogheda, and throughout the country. Those are run by the Garda Síochána. We also have the community CCTV cameras. I cannot remember the number of them but it would be a substantial number throughout the country. The resources for any additional ones may not be available for this year or next year.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I tend to agree with the Minister about the PPP issue as it relates to Thornton Hall but we ought to have some very bright people in his Department and in the Department of Finance comparing the one with the other. When this project collapsed, the cost to the taxpayer would have been astronomical. It cost us an arm and a leg, so to speak, and was being defended by the Government at the time. I had serious reservations about it. I do not mention it as a stick with which to beat the Minister but as an example of the reason the State ought to examine the merit of PPPs in terms of value for money.

I want to ask the Minister about the €80 million overtime figure for gardaí. Will the Minister refresh my memory on the reason that is a better deal than last year and so on? I thought we cut overtime by €50 million last year. Did the Minister retrace his steps on that in the event that overtime was-----

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It was always €80 million, including last year and, I believe, the year before but there had been an overrun up to approximately €110 million and we brought it back down by €30 million to €80 million last year and this year. The Garda has been successful at holding it at €80 million. I will give the Deputy the figures. It was €105 million in 2006; €138 million in 2007; €115 million in 2008; €79.5 million in 2009; and then €80 million. We have reduced it from €115 million in 2008 to €80 million in 2009, and it has held at €80 million. In fairness to the Garda Síochána, it has operated within that reasonably well.

I have always made the point that the more gardaí we attest and put on the street, the less necessity there is for overtime. We cannot continue to pay the same level of overtime for a smaller number of gardaí than we would with a larger number. Obviously, we get more productivity the more gardaí we have on the street. Our overtime bill was somewhat ahead of the average for similar type police forces throughout the country. Did the Deputy ask me another question?

Vice Chairman

As there are no further questions I thank the Minister and his officials.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

Before we conclude our consideration of the Votes I acknowledge the contribution of the Minister. This is the fourth statement under the justice sector group output. On my behalf and on behalf of my party I pay tribute to the officials in the Department of Justice and Law Reform, all of whom work very hard to maintain and complete the mission statement in excellent terms, maintaining and enhancing community security and the promotion of a fair society.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I appreciate that.

Vice Chairman

I thank the Minister and his officials. I remind members that the next meeting is a meeting of the joint committee on Thursday next, 24 June 2010 at 9.30 a.m. to consider a number of motions. Also, the select committee will sit on Tuesday, 29 June 2010 to consider the Criminal Procedure Bill.

As we have now completed our consideration of the Revised Estimate for Votes 19, 20, 21, 22 and 23, the clerk of the committee will send a message to that effect to the Clerk of the Dáil in accordance with Standing Order 87. Under Standing Order 82, paragraph (2), the message is deemed to be the report of the committee.