Skip to main content
Normal View

Select Committee on Legislation and Security debate -
Wednesday, 19 Jan 1994

SECTION 15.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 18, subsection (3), lines 34 and 35, to delete "in reply".

This subsection as is drawn under section 15, which deals with the enforcement of confiscation orders, reads:

An order under subsection (2) of this section shall not be made unless the defendant has been given a reasonable opportunity to make any representations to the court that the order should not be made and the court has taken into account any representations so made and any representations made by Director of Public Prosecutions in reply.

It would be reasonable if the court was allowed to take into account any representations made by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I would not go to the wall for this amendment, but it would seem to be a reasonable tidying up of the section.

Section 15 (3) arises where under section 15 (2) the Director of Public Prosecutions reports to the High Court that any or all of a confiscation order remains unpaid and the court is considering whether to make an order for imprisonment. Section 15 (3) allows an opportunity for the defendant to make representations as to why he or she should not be imprisoned. The court is obliged to consider those representations as well as any representations made by the Director of Public Prosecutions in reply. The use of the words "in reply" seems necessary to ensure that the Director of Public Prosecutions will be given an opportunity to comment on the representations made by the defendant as to why imprisonment should not be imposed in addition to whatever comments the Director of Public Prosecutions made in reporting the matter to the High Court. That is a reasonable approach and, accordingly, I would strongly favour retaining the words, but if Deputy Mitchell feels strongly about his amendment, I am prepared to discuss it with the draftsman between now and Report Stage.

That is fair enough. I will withdraw my amendment. The Minister might be able to come back to it on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That section 15 stand part of the Bill."

The last words in section 15 (1) are that "nothing in this subsection shall enable a person to be imprisoned". What is the thinking behind that subsection? Under subsection (2), who is to assess the wealth and how is that to be done? Under subsection (4), the sentence can be reduced in proportion to any sum or sums paid or recovered from time to time under the confiscation order. I presume that automatically means that the person has to go back before the court and that the court is the only authority capable of reducing the sentence.

: On subsection (2), the Director of Public Prosecutins will have the information which he will provide to the court and the court will decide.

The question also asked who is to assess the wealth?

Based on what?

The case will have been concluded at that stage. We will now be dealing with a confiscation order and a decision on such, and the Director of Public Prosecutions will have, during the course of the case and before the case starts, a certain amount of information which he will provide to the court and, based on all that information, the court will make a decision.

I will come back to that on my next amendment. I think there is a weakness there. Why does subsection (1) say that nothing in this subsection can enable a person to be in prison?

This may arise under an earlier section. To come back to the first point Deputy Mitchell raised, as regards assessing the wealth of someone, perhaps the Minister could clarify the powers of Director of Public Prosecutions would have, for example, to gain access to bank accounts or deposit accounts or to require the person whose wealth has to be assessed to swear documents before the court setting out the total extent of his assets and from there where they derived.

In relation to subsection (1), we are enforcing the confiscation order as a debt and if any debt is not paid, then the person is subject to imprisonment. We are already providing for that in the Bill so there is no need to do it again.

On Deputy Shatter's amendment, as I understand it, in advance of the case being taken and then during the course of the proceedings, information will have come into the hands of the DPP and the State who will be taking the case. That information will be made available to the court when a decision is being made in relation to confiscation orders. The court will make the assessment at the end of the day. However, because of the points raised by both Deputies I am prepared to look at that section lest there might be a weakness in it; we are here to ensure that nobody can get away with hiding assets of any kind and that when a confiscation order is made it takes account of all of the assets. I am prepared to look again at the section between now and report Stage.

My last question related to subsection (4) where it is stated: "but shall be reduced in proportion to any sum or sums paid or recovered from time to time under the confiscation order". Does that mean going back to the court each time? I presume it does.

In that context, in civil proceedings if the courts have a jurisdiction which requires them to look at the extent of the wealth of an individual, the courts can, as they can in other circumstances, grant what is known as an order for discovery which requires that individual to swear an affidavit setting out all available documentation that details their assets. That can then be examined by the lawyers seeking to establish what that person's assets are. That documentation may be used to further inquiries being made to ascertain whether documents are being concealed or if a full and frank disclosure has been made. It would seem that the legislation does not provide for that. It is a question of the Director of Public Prosecutions relying on whatever information comes his way.

If I were a drug baron and had made a couple of million pounds out of the sale of drugs and had an account in Jersey, in the Isle of Man or in the Cayman Islands, I would not see any need to pick up the telephone and call the Director of Public Prosecutions to tell him where the money was and where the accounts were. Indeed, getting an order for discovery in those circumstances may not result in a full and frank disclosure and it may require a good deal of Garda work to establish where the money is; indeed, that information may not be ascertainable at all.

It would seem that there should be an onus on the defendant to provide information and it should be an offence to give misleading information. Some aspects of this may be addressed in the legislation. Again I am raising these points because there is a danger that the legislation may not achieve what we would all like to see it achieve if these points are not addressed in that kind of detail.

I gather from the discussion about earlier sections that the reasoning of the Department of Justice is that an application to obtain a confiscation order will not be brought unless there is a fairly good chance that the defendant will be a good mark and has traceable assets. Having reached this stage and having decided to go for the confiscation order, we can presume that there is a good chance that money will be realisable or property traceable. How much involvement in terms of intelligence does the Minister envisage the Revenue Commissioners having at this stage? I would imagine the Revenue Commissioners would be well placed to observe and assess people's lifestyles and assist in the enforcement of confiscation orders. Yesterday we spoke about the need for some sort of co-ordinated effort on the part of the various agencies involved with observing people's lifestyles apart from the obligations on the financial institutions to disclose information. How will the whole thing be brought together particularly in the context of the Revenue Commissioners?

As I said earlier, the enforcement of confiscation orders only happens at the end of all of the procedures, as Deputy O'Donnell correctly said. We cannot take this section of the Bill on its own. We have to look also at sections 9, 50 and 51. Under section 9 the individual involved can be asked by the court to provide certified accounts, bank accounts, ect., information the court feels is relevant to the case. Under section 50, an order can be made by the court to get other people to make material available. For instance, if Deputy Mitchell knew about certain assets Deputy Shatter had that he is not prepared to make known to the court, then an order could be made to ensure that Deputy Mitchell would make that information available. That is also where the last point raised by Deputy O'Donnell comes in in that Revenue Commissioners can only disclose information as a result of a court order by direction of the court. Section 51 enables a search warrant to be issued where it is felt that the information has not been made available under the other sections of the Bill.

Under that section the court can order the Revenue Commissioners. Does that apply to drug-related offences and general offences or just to drug-related offences?

It applies to both.

Question put and agreed to.
Top
Share