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Select Committee on Legislation and Security debate -
Tuesday, 10 May 1994

SECTION 61.

I move amendment No. 118:

In page 68, line 49, to delete "(2) (a)" and substitute "(2) (a) (ii) or (iii)".

This is a drafting amendment which makes it clear that the obligation on the registrar to enter a direction on the register arises in cases where a practising certificate has been issued subject to conditions and where a practising certificate has been refused. It is not clear in the section that he is obliged to enter a direction where a practising certificate has been issued subject to conditions. It is clear that he is obliged to enter it where a certificate is refused. It is appropriate that he should be able to enter it where it has been granted subject to conditions.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 119:

In page 68, line 51, delete "(a)".

This is a drafting amendment which makes it clear that the registrar must enter particulars in the register of any order made by the High Court following an appeal by a solicitor against a direction of the society to refuse to issue a practising certificate or against a decision of the society to issue a practising certificate subject to conditions.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 61, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 62 to 64, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

Amendments Nos. 120 to 124, inclusive, are out of order.

I move amendment No. 125:

In page 70, before section 65, but in Part VII. to insert the following new section:

"65.—Section 25 of the Act of 1960 is hereby amended by the insertion of the following subsection:

‘(3) A reference in any provision of the Solicitors Acts, 1954 to 1994, to the President of the High Court may be construed as meaning any ordinary judge of the High Court assigned by the President of the High Court (or, in the absence of the President of the High Court, assigned by the senior ordinary judge of the High Court available at the relevant time) to hear any application or appeal (including any order or orders consequent thereon) under any such provision.’.”.

This deals with a legal aspect of delegating any member of the High Court.

It is covered in the Courts Act, 1981 and the point is already dealt with.

Is the Minister sure that the matter is covered if the President of the High Court is absent at a tribunal, for example?

Yes, under section 18 (2) of the Courts Act, 1981.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 126:

In page 70, before section 65, but in Part VII, to insert the following new section:

"65.7—(1)The Society shall issue guidelines requiring of its members that—

(a) no Partnership Deed shall contain any clause which discriminates as between partners on the grounds of sex, and

(b) a maternity clause be included in such Partnership Deed.

(2) The Society shall adopt a code of practice for all its members ensuring equality of opportunity.".

I raised this matter with the Minister on Second Stage. I am concerned about various matters relating to equal opportunities in the legal profession as it relates to women. I tried to get some statistics as to how well women are doing in the profession. As we all know, among the younger generations of women, especially at entry level into the profession, there are more women qualifying and doing well. Unfortunately, the Law Society did not have any details and this is part of the problem because nobody is keeping on eye on the matter. It had no statistics as to how many female solicitors are reaching partnership level or how many are going on to become proprietary equity partners.

This issue has been addressed in the Law Society's British counterpart which has introduced a range of equal opportunity measures. We must recognise that there is a problem here in relation to the mobility of women in the profession and this is particularly related to the "problem" of child bearing as it affects women in the profession. At present, thanks to excellent maternity legislation in this jurisdiction, women employed by a firm are covered; their maternity rights and conditions are secured. However, when one moves into the upper echelons of the profession in terms of being an equity partner, one moves outside the realm of the protection of the maternity legislation. There are not many women proprietary partners in Ireland, but I could not even get details of that because, unfortunately, the Law Society does not keep such statistics. We need to have a statistical profile of the profession based on gender and other matters.

When it comes to that stage, female partners seem to be negotiating with their predominantly male peers from a vulnerable position because in many cases they are embarrassed at being a hindrance because they had a baby. The duration of their maternity leave and what proportion of the proprietary and profit share they will continue to get have to be negotiated. Women often do not know how other women in similar circumstances have fared. The Law Society must start to address this issue. It is not in the public interest to force women to take two weeks maternity leave and then return to their desks, because it would displease their male partners otherwise or that they would be prejudiced in this regard by losing out in their share of the profits. This area cannot be regulated by law, but there should be an onus on the Law Society to recognise the problem for women solicitors. It will not go away but will get worse because solicitors are to the fore at the entry point to the profession.

The purpose of my amendment is to address the problem of maternity leave in the context of equity partners. Partnership deeds should not contain anything that would discriminate against a woman on the grounds of her need for maternity leave. We should follow the lead of the British Law Society which drafted guidelines and distributed them to their 70,000 members to the effect that a maternity clause should be included in all partnership deeds and has even drafted a precedent for it.

Equal opportunity, especially maternity benefits and rights for female partners in solicitor firms, needs to be addressed. I am afraid of a blockage on mobility at certain levels for women. They might progress to a certain stage and then be passed over for promotion to more lucrative areas of their profession because they have a baby. I am sure many female solicitors are loath to address such matters. They entered the profession and have been trained as equals with total access and equality of opportunity, but there is a hidden ceiling in the profession for women. They are less likely to vocalise it because they do not want to politicise the matter. However, this is an issue of public policy and it has been recognised by the British law society. I would like this Legislature to recognise it and ask the Law Society to examine it.

There are other equality matters which could be addressed; the British law society has addressed them. One issue is practising certificates fees. The practising solicitors fee of £600 per year was referred to earlier. In Britain, a reduced rate practising certificate has been introduced for women who leave the profession for child rearing purposes. It encourages them to return to the profession by providing returner courses. This area is very advanced in Britain. I do not want to shame the Law Society, but it should be made aware that women who have not been working are in danger of being lost because the society does not actively encourage them back into the profession or provide returner or refresher courses. There is nothing in place in the Law Society to take account of that, nor is there any mechanism to deal with complaints about sexual discrimination. Is it, for example, a disciplinary offence which would constitute misconduct? Could it merit going to the disciplinary tribunal?

Flexibility, part-time work and career breaks in this area have been addressed in Britain because they saw the need to address them. Questions which should not be asked are put to women at job interviews. Guidelines need to be issued by the Law Society to protect a large portion of their members. I am interested in hearing the Minister's response.

I have no objection to complying with Deputy O'Donnell's request to discuss this matter with the Law Society. I am not sure what has been done in this regard in the United Kingdom. I am advised that the British law society has issued a set of guidelines for the benefit of the profession, but the wording of this amendment seems to go further. In subsection (1), for example, it states, "The society shall issue guidelines requiring" and subsection (2) states that "The society shall adopt a code of practice ensuring equality of opportunity".

I agree that a partnership deal should not contain any provision which discriminates unfairly between partners on the grounds of sex. It would appear to be more appropriate to deal with this discrimination in separate legislation which would not be limited solely to solicitors. We should not try to deal with an important and complex issue like this by a single provision in the Bill. To deal in a comprehensive way with discrimination and equality of opportunity would seem to require detailed legislation which should apply globally. Deputy O'Donnell should take this matter up with the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, who is preparing broad ranging equal status legislation in accordance with one of the commitments in the Programme for a Partnership Government. Discrimination can occur not only in the legal profession but across the board and there is a need for separate comprehensive legislation to deal with it. I will speak to the Law Society about the issuing of general guidelines for the information of the profession.

Would it make any difference if I replaced "shall" with "may"? Is the Minister saying that the language of the amendment seeks to force the Law Society to take action? Based on the Minister's other comments, there would still be problems even if I replaced the word "shall" with "may".

It is best dealt with in separate legislation. Deputy O'Donnell will be happy when he sees the proposals the Minister for Equality and Law Reform will advance.

My only concern is that the Minister for Equality and Law Reform might be restricted to employment and terms of employment. One of the aspects my amendment was trying to cover was where one has to negotiate with one's partners outside of the employment arena.

I was asked that question at a recent party conference, indeed I had anticipated it. The Department of Equality and Law Reform advised me that it would not be so restricted.

I am disappointed that the Minister has not made a more positive response to the amendment. We are referring to a self-regulating profession. I do not imagine the Law Society would have any objections to it. It does nothing in this regard at the moment; it does not even have any statistics as to the progress and mobility of women in the profession. The society should be asked to cast an eye over the area.

I will ask the society to do this, but as drafted Deputy O'Donnell's amendment calls on the society to do more than that.

I am ambitious, Minister.

Of course. It is not clear what Deputy O'Donnell's amendment means when it refers to a maternity clause. I take it that the Deputy is referring to maternity leave.

No. It is referring to pensions and related matters.

What about paternity? We do not want to discriminate on the basis of sex.

My amendment states that "no Partnership Deed shall contain any clause which discriminates as between partners on the grounds of sex". This area needs to be considered. Motherhood affects the mobility of women solicitors, they leave work, and do not return. When they are on maternity leave, they are not given a reduction on those fees to maintain their practising certificates. The society needs to look at the position of women who leave the workforce for a situation in which they have no income, have to pay this sort of fee to keep in contact with the profession and are then offered no refresher courses. The society is losing valued members of the profession, it indirectly and without malice discriminates against women members.

I will examine what is being done in the UK in this context and will discuss it with the society.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 65 agreed to.
Section 66 agreed to.
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