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Select Committee on Legislation and Security debate -
Wednesday, 18 May 1994

SECTION 16.

I move amendment No. 53:

In page 17, subsection (1), line 15, after "section" to insert "6,".

Section 16 provides that the court in deciding to make an order for financial relief for a dependent spouse and children shall have regard to all the circumstances of the case. It lists matters for example, income, earning capacity, financial resources and so on, to which the court must have regard when making an order. This amendment has the effect of applying the provisions of section 16 to the position covered by section 6.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 54:

In page 17, subsection (1), line 16, after "12," to insert "13,".

The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that in exercising the powers under section 13 to extinguish succession rights in cases of judicial separation, the court will be required to have regard to all those criteria set out in section 16, to which I have referred.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 55 and 70 are related and may be taken together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 55:

In page 17, subsection (2) (f), line 45, after "family" to insert "and there shall be a rebuttable presumption that the work of the spouse within the home should, unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary, give rise to a joint interest in the family home".

This is an attempt to recognise the work of the spouse within the home. We are all interested in having it recognised but are finding it very difficult to find a device to allow that. I hoped we could say that this is a technical amendment and agree it but I realise the difficulties inherent in accepting such an amendment. However, it is important to use every possible means to reinforce the point made time and again about the principle of shared ownership in the family home on the premise of work in the home. The work of a spouse within the home — who in the vast majority of cases is a woman — which is paid lip service should be acknowledged in a firm legislative sense.

I invite the Minister to tease out a way in which we can address this problem. I tried to do this with a relatively simple and straightforward amendment and also in the more lengthy amendment No. 70 which revisits the legislation which I unsuccessfully introduced during Private Members' Time a couple of weeks ago.

I will not delay the debate by making yet another Second Stage speech on the compelling arguments for this amendment. However, contrary to the reception the Bill I presented got from the Government side, the principle I wished to enshrine was welcomed by women's groups, the Council for the Status of Women and so on. It is very important to acknowledge the principle of what we are trying to achieve and not dismiss attempts by the Opposition to deal with it. This is, perhaps, a less contentious forum and we should try to tease out the difficulties.

We were all very disappointed when the Matrimonial Home Bill, 1993, failed the challenge in the Supreme Court. Many representations were made to me, and I am sure to the Minister and we have to use every opportunity to enshrine the principle in legislation. We signalled on Second Stage that we would try to do so in some way. If the Minister is willing to at least argue the case or table an amendment, I will be more than happy to go along with that. Women are passionate about this issue. There must be recognition of the non financial contributions which they make. There is no point in talking about women as home-makers and saying that duties they perform in the home should be acknowledged: we all know that. We need concrete evidence of how that acknowledgment can be made.

I support this amendment which aims to level the playing pitch between spouses and to recognise the contributions people make to the home. The ground rules are set against the spouse who works in the home whether it is a man or a woman. There is an increasing number of new men, the househusband who, presumably, as time passes will find himself in as weak a position as women who stay at home at present. It is important that an automatic presumption that that work is of value is written. Certainly, the Supreme Court judgment invited legislators to recognise that work and to establish it in law.

It was regrettable that the Minister did not take the opportunity presented to him by the Progressive Democrats when they put forward their Bill to give that recognition a legal framework. It could have been done very easily. It was quite incomprehensible in light of the statements made by the Minister here on this issue when he opened the debate on the Matrimonial Home Bill. He had no difficulty then and was wholehearted in his support for the principle but there was a mealy mouthed response from the Government to a much more modest Bill put forwarod by the Opposition subsequent to the constitutional challenge to the Matrimonial Home Bill. Here again the Minister has an opportunity to give recognition not likely to be challenged under the Constitution as it has, in effect, already been tested by a judgment of the Supreme Court. It is of fundamental importance to women who have contributed so much to society and whose work has never been recognised in a concrete way with regard to property.

Amendment No. 70 proposes to enable a spouse, who has made a non-financial contribution to the household to go to court with a view to establishing an ownership interest in the matrimonial property in proportion to that contribution up to a maximum of 50 per cent.

I appreciate that the Deputy is seeking to give legislative recognition to the contribution to the family made by a spouse working in the home and caring for the family. We are all conscious of the value of that contribution. It has already been given such recognition in Part II of the Judical Separation and Family Law Act, 1989, which is being repealed and updated by this Bill. However, these provisions deal with situations where proceedings for nullity or judicial separation had begun, and where the matrimonial property may have to be divided between the couple concerned. In those cases it is essential that the decision should take fully into account any non-financial as well as financial contributions made by each of the spouses, and especially the contribution made by a spouse in looking after the home.

This amendment deals with spouses who are not separated and are not proposing to separate. It provides that if one of the spouses wishes to assert an ownership right in the matrimonial property based on non-financial contributions, and the other spouse disagrees, the dispute can only be settled, by the court. This litigation would involve substantial expense and, irrespective of the outcome, it would adversely affect the marriage relationship.

Under the law, financial contributions by a spouse towards the acquisition of matrimonial property can give rise to a proportionate ownership interest which can be determined by the courts in default of agreement. However, there is a world of difference between establishing the extent of financial contributions, which are easily ascertainable and difficult to dispute, and that of non-financial contributions made by either spouse from the date of the marriage up to commencement of the litigation.

This uncertainty would increase the likelihood of disputes, and consequent recourse to the courts, and it would also increase the costs of the litigation, which would normally have to be borne by the defending spouse, irrespective of the outcome. It might also be open to a spouse who had successfully established a less than 50 per cent share in matrimonial property to return to the courts more than once to get credit for work carried out on the home in the meantime and eventually build up his or her share to the 50 per cent limit.

In contrast, the determination of non-financial contributions on the occasion of a separation is a once off evaluation of those contributions made during the period when the couple were living together. Moreover, I would not accept, as has been suggested, that such a provision would help spouses to get their partners to convey to them formally a share of the family home or other matrimonial property on the basis that, otherwise, proceedings would be taken against them. Indeed, such an implied threat of litigation could have the opposite effect.

What is wanted most by spouses who work in the home and who do not wish to engage in litigation with their partners is some practical recognition of their contribution. The real deterrent is the formality and costs associated with putting the family home into joint names. The Matrimonial Home Bill, 1993, sought to have a statutory joint ownership registered in the Land Registry or the Registry of Deeds without any formal conveyance, payment of stamp duty or registration fees. I wish to see simplified arrangements along these lines in respect of voluntary conveyances of family homes to joint ownership.

As I indicated recently when this matter was debated, my Department is examining proposals for legislation to provide for such arrangements in consultation with the lending institutions. Such provision would enable couples who live in harmony to give full and effective recognition to the contribution made by the spouse who works in the home.

I regret that I cannot regard this amendment as being other than a minimalist approach to the problem we are all anxious to resolve, that is to establish joint ownership of the family home as the norm. Encouraging litigation between spouses could do more harm than good.

The Deputy's amendment No. 55 to section 16 (1) (f) proposes that there should be a rebuttable presumption that a spouse's work in the home would give rise to a joint interest in the home unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary. I understand the Deputy's motivation in putting down this amendment, but this deals with matters to which the court must pay particular regard when making an order under various sections. These orders, which could include maintenance orders, or pension adjustment orders for the grant of a property adjustment order, giving a spouse an interest, or an enlarged interest in the family home, may not be the best or most appropriate option for the parties.

In those circumstances, obliging the court to give an ownership interest in the home to one of the spouses might be contrary to that spouse's best interest. I appreciate that the presumption is to be subject to there being compelling reasons for not granting a joint interest in the home, but it would be better to leave the fullest discretion to the court to do justice in the circumstances of each case, once it has had particular regard to any past or future contributions made by each of the spouses to the welfare of the family as the sections requires. I regret that for these reasons I am unable to accept the Deputy's amendments.

I am not overcome with surprise at the Minister's response but unlike similar responses this one is at least more temperate. On the issue of the implied threat, the view of women and women's groups to whom I spoke is that if the principle is enshrined in legislation there is not an implied threat. Many of the arguments on the difficulties couples could face in going to court, could be made on financial and non-financial contributions.

The principle involved does not imply a threat. Without wishing to be sexist, I see this from a woman's point of view and I am not aware if the Minister or his advisers realise the depth of feeling on this principle.

I accept that the amendments I tabled may not be the best and that the Minister is not willing to accept an amendment from a Bill he has rejected. However, I am unable to accept that he will not pursue the principle, and his arguments were quite contraditory in replying to amendment No. 70 first and then accepting some of the grounds behind amendment No. 55.

While the Minister will not accept these amendments, I ask for a commitment from him that he will shortly take some action on this matter which causes concern and confusion and affects women, especially those women working in the home, the home makers. They wish to have this recognised and do not see that recognition as an implied threat.

I welcome the Minister's reply. This issue is covered in the legislation. I would hate to think that I would consider the issue solely from a man's perspective, or that women would consider solely from a woman's perspective. The committee should legislate for all. The issue is well covered by the legislation. The Minister has clarified the point raised by Deputy Keogh and the issue may be pushed too far. We must legislate for men and women.

It is not possible for me to look at this legislation as a man. I admit defeat on this.

Does Deputy McManus admit it is sexist?

I admit to having a comprehensive view of what we are talking about and, with all due respect to Deputy Ryan, I do not think he has.

That is rather presumptuous and a form of intellectual arrogance.

I listened closely to what the Deputy said and am judging him on that. With regard to what the Minister said, we all understand the difficulties and do not underestimate them. However, at present there is a threat implicit in the status quo, which is that the work of a woman who has spent all her working years contributing within the home is of no value. The amendment seeks — it may be flawed and I do not think Deputy Keogh is under any illusions about this — an implicit security for women which the Bill lacks. Anybody who disregards the reality is blind to the conundrum which exists. There were signals that the Matrimonial Home Bill was going to be declared unconstitutional.

We must up date the Constitution. However, this is not the most disturbing feature of the debate on this issue. The failure of the Government to admit it made a mess of that Bill and to state what it intended to do as a result is more disturbing. The shutters have been closed and the attitude is that everything is all right we must get on with the business. It is not all right. Women are being discriminated against and their work is still disregarded. This is the implicit threat which exists. We should bear this in mind before we consider any implied threats which may be introduced. If we always thought about implied threats of legal action, we would not introduce any laws or protections. We would not try to change anything and women would still be barefoot and pregnant. The Minister wants to bring about improvements for women. The lack of a response to and a new initiative on this issue amazes and shocks me. I accept the amendment will not be accepted but I want to put on record that this is a valid argument and will not go away.

The explanatory memorandum states:

The court must take into account any contribution made by either spouse to the financial and other resources of the other spouse and any contribution made by either of them by looking after the home or caring for the family.

This covers the point Deputy Keogh is making in her amendment. The Constitution recognises the work of women in the home. Such spouses contribute to the country's interest. I do not think this section rules out full recognition of their contribution to the home. They are entitled to a half share of the family property if the court so determines. The Minister may elaborate on this. This section may not be as strong as Deputy Keogh wishes.

I wish to put on record, lest my silence be misunderstood, that I do not think Deputy Ryan would have made the comments he did if he had been present at the start of this debate. To be fair to Deputy Keogh, she emphasised that nowadays there are househusbands as well as housewives and this will be the case more often in the future. She specifically referred to men who remain in the home. The criticism of her amendment was unfair. I support it and the arguments made in its favour. It must be very galling for any woman to think that the work she had done in the home, sometimes over half a century or more, will not count. I do not blame women being very angry about this. The contribution of women in the home is often more difficult, complex and valuable than that of those who work outside the home. It requires talents that those who work outside the home do not need.

The explanatory memorandum states:

The main objects of the Bill are to enable the court to make financial, property and other ancillary orders following the granting of a decree of nullity of marriage and in cases where foreign decrees of divorce, nullity and legal separation are entitled to legal recognition in the State;

Is Deputy Keogh proposing to include in the Bill an amendment which will not necessarily deal with the Bill's main purposes? She is proposing, irrespective of whether there are applications for nullity or separation, that there be a presumption, which may be rebutted, of a joint interest in the family home. I have no objection in principle to her argument if it is not covered in section 22. However, I do not think this is the case. The explanatory memorandum states.

Subsection (2) lists matters (e.g. income, earning capacity, property [I take property to mean the family home] financial resources, likely future obligations, age and conduct of the spouses) to which the court must have particular regard when deciding on the making of orders.

I take it that a judge could decide to award a house to a spouse in the case of separation or nulity. Deputy Keogh is proposing the introduction of a provision which does not deal with the main object of the Bill. Her proposal is fine in principle but is it appropriate to this Bill?

Every argument has been made as to why this principle should not be accepted. Why not use this particular vehicle in order to include such a principle? I hope people read the amendments clearly. I would say to Deputy Ryan that we are talking about spouses within the home. The fact that in the main we are referring to women just illustrates a fact of life in Ireland today which is that it is mainly women who need to be protected. That does not invalidate the principle of this which has nothing to do with whether it is men or women. The fact is that it is mainly women who are affected in this regard.

If I had even a time frame on this from the Minister and was convinced that his good intentions will come to fruition I would not be pressing this amendment. However, because I am so disappointed by the Government's response in this instance and that something so important seems to have been dropped down the time scale, I really feel that one must continually press this point at every opportunity, which is what I intend to do.

Just in case Deputy Keogh is implying that I am not talking about protecting women in the home, nothing could be further from the truth. Of course I want to protect women in the home or anywhere else, or men in the home or anywhere else. What I said is that I believe that it is contained in the Bill and, as Deputy Fitzgerald said, is this the right place for what Deputy Keogh is putting forward? I do not believe that it necessarily is. What we are essentially talking about is covered in the Bill.

I wish to make one preliminary point on this whole issue which is that if any Government has shown its top priority for the principle of giving women a 50 per cent ownership in the family home and its contents, it is this Government which prioritised the Matrimonial Home Bill, 1993, which lay gestating in the Department of Justice through numerous Governments for 14 years——

I can see why.

——finalised that Bill and brought it forward with the support of all parties in the Oireachtas. Unfortunately, it fell foul of the Constitution. However, that action illustrates the concern which this Government has shown for the role and property position of married women.

Deputy Keogh and her party, the Progressive Democrats, were in Government before this Government. There was nothing to stop them bringing forward the Matrimonial Home Bill which they never even dusted off. There was nothing to stop them bringing forward their Private Members' Bill which they produced on the 24 hour slot or to bring forward a Bill on the lines of these amendments while they were in Government. However, they did absolutely nothing but yet criticised this Government which completed and brought in a complex measure in the hope that it would stand the test and give a guaranteed, vested, joint interest right to all married women in the matrimonial home.

We have to face that regrettable fact. As Deputy Shatter said earlier, that is the constitutional climate in which we are working and regrettably we have to accept that position for the moment. The question of amendments to the Constitution is another day's work and hopefully it will be possible to bring that about. However, that is the constitutional climate at the moment. To try to scramble about and deal with the matter in this kind of fashion just could not be done. The matter is too difficult and complex.

As Deputies Briscoe and Fitzgerald rightly pointed out, the position of property distribution on marital breakdown is very well covered in the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act, 1989, and in this Bill, and it provides that not only the family home but all matrimonial property is on the table in the event of breakdown. This is directed to a different matter, to the position of stable marriages. The thrust of the Matrimonial Home Bill, 1989, was very special and clear and simply said that the matrimonial home goes into the joint names of both spouses and that is that. What we are talking about here is a different matter. In a so-called stable marriage situation, the wife says to her husband that she has been working in the home of which she estimates that she should have 30 per cent and to convey to her 30 per cent of the home. If she does that there are two possibilities — one is that he will say yes, that they will go to a solicitor and arrange it, expense notwithstanding. Such a husband would do that anyway, even without a Bill. However, if he does not agree then they are in a dispute litigation situation. It is an ongoing situation and having got the 30 per cent, another three years go by and she then wants another 10 per cent.

The matter is complex, I will say no more than that. It is not a matter from which I have walked away. It is still under examination in my Department and I hope that in the fullness of time it will be possible to devise measures which will bring about some recognition of that situation. I said that in the course of the debate on the Progressive Democrats' Private Members' Bill. It is regrettable that if they felt that strongly about it and thought it was so readily accomplishable and quickly in legislation, that they did not do something about it when they were in Government, or some other Government during the last 14 years when the Matrimonial Home Bill lay there ignored and neglected. I regret that I cannot accept the amendment.

The Minister knows as well as I do that what he is saying is not an argument. Everybody could say that about any legislation which is ever brought forward. In relation to his first remarks, on one hand he is saying that this would be a matter for litigation and would cause dissension and so on, in the family and, on the other hand, he says that he is trying to do it. I am trying to do it but he is saying that it is not possible and yet, on the other hand, he is saying that he is trying to do it but it is very difficult. That is not logical. If it is difficult we should tease out those difficulties but the principle should be enshrined.

Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 56:

In page 18, subsection (2), lines 7 to 11, to delete paragraph (k) and substitute the following:

"(k) the value to each of the spouses of any benefit (for example, a benefit under a pension scheme) which by reason either of the invalidity of the marriage concerned or the decree of judicial separation concerned, as the case may be, that spouse will forfeit the opportunity or possibility of acquiring,

(I) the rights of any person other than the spouses but including a person to whom either spouse is remarried.".

Section 16 (2) lists matters in respect of which the court must have regard in deciding whether to make ancillary orders under Parts II and III of the Bill. The amendment to paragraph (k) is a drafting amendment only, on the basis that it is technically more correct in section 16 to refer to "invalidity of the marriage" rather than "annulment of the marriage".

Paragraph (1) adds the rights of third parties to the matters to which the courts must have regard when making such orders. The list of matters in subsection (2) is not, of course, exhaustive. There may well be other matters to be taken into account but subsection (1) already makes clear, in any event, that it is open to the court to take all circumstances into account.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 57:

In page 18, between lines 36 and 37, to insert the following subsection:

"(5) The court shall not make an order under a provision referred to in subsection (1) unless it would be in the interests of justice to do so.".

This is a further amendment to section 16 and it makes clear that when exercising its powers under Part II in relation to ancillary orders, the court shall refuse to make an order under Parts II and III where it would not be in the interests of justice to do so. While this amendment might be regarded as unnecessary, it does help to set the various matters in context and to underpin principles on which orders will be based.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 16, as amended, agreed to.
Section 17 agreed to.
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