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Select Committee on Legislation and Security debate -
Tuesday, 14 May 1996

Estimates 1996: Vote 36 — Defence.

Vote 37 — Army Pensions.

I welcome the Minister and officials from the Department of Defence. Our meeting today is for the purpose of considering the Defence group of Estimates for 1996 which comprises Vote 36 — Defence, and Vote 37 — Army Pensions. I welcome the Minister for Defence, Deputy Barrett, and the Secretary of the Department for Defence, Mr. David O'Callaghan; Assistant Secretaries, Mr. Michael Howard and Mr. Michael O'Donoghue; Mr. Seán Mulvaney, financial controller, Mr. Robert Lyons, deputy financial controller and Mr. John Blyth, professional accountant.

A proposed timetable has been circulated. Its purpose is to ensure that all subheads of Votes receive proper consideration. The timetable is primarily indicative in nature, providing the committee with broad parameters within which to conduct the debate. It will assist Members and provide for a more focused debate. Is it agreed? Agreed.

The committee must consider the Revised Estimate for Defence — Vote 36 and Vote 37 — Army Pensions. It is a responsibility delegated to this committee by Dáil Éireann and it imposes a serious obligation on us which I am confident we will discharge in an appropriate manner. The 1996 Estimate, Vote 36, is for a sum of £385,400,000, representing a 4 per cent increase on last year. The Estimate for 1996 for Army Pensions is £70,232,000, a 5 per cent increase on the 1995 figure. These are significant sums of money and as a committee we are obliged to consider, among other things, whether they are being expended in the most efficient and effective way possible.

In recent meetings the committee has had before it associations representing members of the Defence Forces for a debate on the role of the Defence Forces in the context of the EAG report and the more recent report of the implementation group. I am sure that a number of issues which arose at those meetings will be adverted to by Members in the course of the debate. I am also sure that the Minister will wish to have an opportunity to comment on issues relating to proposals to reform the Defence Forces in the context of the Estimates before us. I look forward, therefore, to a constructive and informative debate.

Our spokesperson on Defence, Deputy Clohessy, is unfortunately unable to be here for personal reasons. I am holding a watching brief and will not be able to stay for all of the deliberations but will be in attendance for as long as possible. I am interested to hear the committee's deliberations.

The Deputy will have an opportunity to make a contribution after the main Opposition party.

Chairman, Deputies, I am pleased to be appearing before this committee for the first time in my capacity as Minister for Defence. It is important to have an opportunity to debate the Defence and Army Pensions Estimates within the committee system. We have dealt with the Estimates in this manner over the last three years. It gives us an excellent opportunity to look in some depth at the roles of the Defence Forces and the time necessary to appreciate what is being achieved and the good value we are getting for the moneys expended under the two Defence Votes.

It is timely that we look at these Estimates now. We are at a point which marks a watershed in the development of the structure and organisation of the Defence Forces. The first phase of the implementation plan for reform of the organisation is under way. This reform is based on a set of roles which were laid down by the Government in 1993. These roles are as follows: to defend the State against armed aggression, this being a contingency, preparations for its implementation will depend on ongoing assessment of threats; to aid the civil power, meaning in practice to assist when requested, the Garda Síochána who have primary responsibility for law and order, including the protection of internal security of the State; to participate in United Nations missions in the cause of international peace; to provide a fishery protection service in accordance with the State's obligations as a member of the European Union and to carry out such other duties as may be assigned to them from time to time, for example, search and rescue, air ambulance service, ministerial air transport service, assistance on the occasion of natural or other disasters, assistance in connection with the maintenance of essential services and dealing with oil pollution at sea.

Up to the point where the roles were redefined the divergence between the stated primary role and the actual work of the Defence Forces was obvious. The lack of clarity over their role had been unfair to the Defence Forces and it hindered management planning to the detriment of overall efficiency. Now the redefinition of roles to reflect modern day conditions and the reform of the structure and organisation will enhance the effectiveness of the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service.

There is widespread agreement on the need to modernise the structure and organisation of the Defence Forces. Its basic underlying framework has remained unchanged for decades. The review of the Defence Forces, undertaken by the Efficiency Audit Group, on behalf of the Government provides an opportunity to address many issues in the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps which require attention.

There were a number of significant factors which led to the review of the Defence Forces being carried out in the manner which is being followed at present. Aside from the revision of roles arising from the changed international environment, to which I have referred already, there was the very evident problem with the rising age profile which would lead to long term difficulties if not addressed in a co-ordinated manner.

The report of the Commission on Remuneration and Conditions of Service in the Defence Forces, that is, the Gleeson report, also highlighted a number of shortcomings in the organisation and structure with excessive numbers employed in non-operational tasks. Similar structural problems were again highlighted by a subsequent review of military administration by the EAG.

It was against a background of general acceptance, not least by the military authorities themselves that reform of the organisation was very necessary, that it was decided to ask the EAG to conduct this root and branch examination. The external consultants, Price Waterhouse, who were engaged by the EAG to assist them in their work, had the required military expertise available to them and they worked in close consultation with our own military authorities in drawing up the plan which, in turn, led to the publication by the Government in February this year of the report of the implementation group. The implementation group's report sets out the measures to be taken during the first three years of the reform process. I expect the entire process to take about ten years to complete.

The plan is essentially strategic in nature and sets out the parameters and objectives within which the reform of the Defence Forces will take place. It does not attempt to go into the fine detail. This will be worked out at a later stage when all current relevant factors can be taken into account.

On the age profile problem a two-pronged approach is being adopted in an effort to make the necessary overall adjustment. A voluntary early retirement scheme is being introduced alongside a programme of planned recruitment of young personnel over the period of the implementation plan. At this point I want to stress, lest there be any misunderstanding, that there will be no compulsory redundancy or forced retirements, under any guise, in any section of the Defence Forces. To lay another fear to rest, let it be abundantly clear also that the financial benefits which will accrue to members of the Permanent Defence Force who avail of the voluntary early retirement scheme are in addition to the already very favourable superannuation arrangements which have been in place for many years.

A booklet giving the details of the scheme was launched on 22 April and applications were invited from 29 April, with the closing date set at not later than 7 June. The success of the scheme is borne out by the fact that the response has, even at this early stage, exceeded all expectations. To date, almost 1,000 applications have been received. These applications are representative of practically all ranks in the Permanent Defence Force.

With regard to recruitment in the context of addressing the age profile problem, the idea of introducing young personnel into the Defence Forces is vital in order to maintain the lifeblood of the organisation. I intend making an announcement on general service recruitment later in the year. As the committee will appreciate, it is appropriate and prudent that recruitment measures should be harmonised and synchronised with the voluntary early retirement scheme and the reform plan in general. Already this year the competition for the award of apprenticeships in the Army and Air Corps is under way. In addition, the advertisements for the award of cadetships in the Permanent Defence Force were placed in the national press last Sunday week and a tremendous response is envisaged, as usual.

There are just a few specific issues that appear to be still causing undue anxiety with which I would like to deal before I leave the subject of the EAG process. The first is the question of barrack closures. This subject still surfaces regularly despite the fact that I have pointed out on more than one occasion that there is absolutely no reference in the Government decision on the EAG to barrack closures. I made this point only a fortnight ago in my statement to the Seanad on the reorganisation of the Defence Forces. There will be a study of accommodation requirements for the Defence Forces in the course of the three year plan. In the conduct of this study full regard will be had to the socio-economic importance of local barracks.

There was some considerable speculation about the position of the Army bands. I have already made it quite clear that there will be no reduction in the number of Army bands. For many years the Army School of Music has made an invaluable contribution to the life of the Defence Forces. Army bands have an important role on many State ceremonial occasions. They also make a valuable contribution to the life of the community. They are in constant demand to give public performances at major events throughout the country. For many years Army musicians have maintained an admirable standard of excellence. The presence of an Army band has contributed a unique lustre to important national events. They have an important role in maintaining the esprit de corps of the Defence Forces.

I would like to make special mention here of the Equitation School in the context of the EAG process. There is no question, contrary to what has been suggested in some quarters in the past, that the Equitation School will be closed or downgraded. In the course of implementing the EAG report, the focus will be on ensuring that the school has an adequate supply of first class horses and riders. The school has a long and distinguished record in showjumping at home and overseas. I am addressing the question of how best to maintain this impressive record and to ensure that the school continues to produce top class riders and horses to represent Ireland in the international showjumping arena.

There are a number of areas which require further study during the course of the first phase of the implementation plan. Some of these, such as the Reserve Defence Force, civilianisation and accommodation requirements, will be dealt with on an in-house basis while two major studies, on the Air Corps and the Naval Service, will be the subject of a report by external consultants. The Efficiency Audit Group is currently examining tenders which have been received from a number of companies offering to carry out the required studies. I expect the EAG will be in a position to commence work on these studies very shortly.

The fact that the Naval Service and the Air Corps are to be the subject of in-depth studies reflects the importance which is attached to the functions which they carry out. The main day to day role of the Naval Service is to provide a fishery protection service in accordance with the State's obligations as a member of the European Union. The Naval Service's efforts in this regard are complemented by assistance provided by the Air Corps.

Over the past 20 years a growing appreciation of the value of our marine resources has coincided with a period of growth and development for the Naval Service and Air Corps. In particular, the extension of our exclusive fishery limit to 200 miles offshore, undertaken in 1977, marked a turning point in our appreciation of the importance of the sea as an economic asset.

Under the new EU five year programme on fishery enforcement measures an element for operational costs has been included for the first time. With regard to the 1996 element of the programme agreement has been reached recently with the EU Commission on our submission for assistance. The measures which have been agreed in the context of the package, in the main, relate to the implementation of the new entry/exit requirements which came into force on 1 January last. The total amount of expenditure under the programme for 1996 for both the Department of Defence and the Department of the Marine is £5.8 million, of which £4.3 million will be met by the EU. The total amount of expenditure under the programme in relation to Defence will be of the order of £3.45 million, of which about £1.04 million is for operational costs.

The proposals for expenditure in 1997 under the package have to be submitted to Brussels by the end of June of this year. These proposals will include expenditure as a down payment for the acquisition of a new ship for the Naval Service. Experience on the lead-in time for the acquisition of a new ship would suggest that it will probably take about two years to complete the acquisition process and commission a vessel.

We now have a fleet of seven modern ships available to us to protect our 130,000 square miles of exclusive fisheries. Shipboard operations from the L.E. Eithne by the Air Corps are now a routine feature of maritime surveillance work. Vessels at sea are backed up by advanced communications and information technology systems. The Air Corps Casa maritime patrol aircraft are an invaluable addition to the whole effort.

I would like to pay a personal tribute to the work of the Naval Service. From my experience of my Marine portfolio I am well aware of the task that is faced daily in enforcing our fisheries laws. The work goes on 24 hours a day in all weather conditions. The role the service plays is at times both difficult and dangerous but its professionalism is second to none. Because the duties of the Naval Service are performed at sea, out of sight of the public, it may not have always received the recognition it deserved. However, its continuing success in fishery protection and search and rescue and its important role in dealing with oil pollution threats have resulted in a much wider appreciation of the outstanding dedication of the personnel.

While the Air Corps is heavily involved in the fishery protection role by virtue of its operation of the Dauphin Naval Variant helicopter and the Casa maritime patrol aircraft it also carries out many other diverse tasks. The Air Corps performs vitally important functions in search and rescue, air ambulance, security operations and from time to time it assists in non-military operations such as the relief of distress in emergencies arising from natural disasters. Since the beginning of this year the Air Corps has been providing an enhanced night helicopter coverage on the east coast. It is working towards providing a dedicated 24 hour search and rescue capability by the end of the summer with a night flying helicopter located in Baldonnel.

Both the Naval Service and the Air Corps have in recent times been effective in aiding the civil power in combating illegal importation of drugs. In this task the Defence Forces work in close co-operation with the Garda Síochána and the Revenue Commissioners in attempting to stamp out this insidious crime.

I have recently returned from a visit to the Irish Battalion serving with UNIFIL in southern Lebanon. The men and women of the 78th Battalion carried out heroic work in difficult circumstances for them throughout the period of "Operation Grapes of Wrath", as it was known. I saw at first hand how our troops are contributing to the work of UNIFIL in trying to fulfil the mission there and also in delivering humanitarian aid to those in need. They are once again displaying the courage and professionalism which we know they possess. I wish the men and women of the 79th Battalion, who have just taken over from their colleagues, a safe and successful tour of duty and I am sure all Members of this committee join with me in this wish. As I have said on many occasions in the recent past, the safety and well being of our troops will always be the first and foremost concern of the Government.

I pay a special tribute to the work of the Defence Forces in their peacekeeping role. Wherever they serve, the patience, diplomacy, discipline and military professionalism of Irish soldiers have won international acclaim. We are completely dependent for our continuing contribution to international peacekeeping on the willingness of our military personnel to volunteer to serve as peacekeepers. I place on record the appreciation of the Government for the courage and dedication shown by the men and women of the Defence Forces in the cause of peace.

The end of the Cold War has transformed the international environment and greatly enhanced the scope for intervention by the United Nations and as a consequence the demand for peacekeeping missions has greatly increased. It says something about the character of the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps that whenever new missions arise the number of volunteers inevitably exceeds the number of available places. The contribution made to peacekeeping missions has enhanced the prestige of Ireland internationally and has been a source of pride to all Irish people.

Lest there be any concern in the matter I want to make it clear that the reformed Defence Forces organisation will be in a position to meet all of its commitments in the peacekeeping context. This has been laid down as a guiding principle for those involved in the reorganisation process.

Before I deal with the detail of the 1996 Estimates I will make final brief comments in relation to the EAG process. This review should not be seen as a cost cutting exercise — it is far from that. These Estimates contain an additional £13 million to front-load the reforms. In deciding the future of the Defence Forces the Government is fully conscious that any decisions reached will have farreaching consequences. The Defence Forces are called upon to perform a variety of important roles, many of which I have touched upon already. In order to ensure that these roles continue to be carried out effectively, it is necessary to examine critically, from time to time, the structure and organisation of the Defence Forces and the Efficiency Audit Group review is part of a process aimed at doing just that. The objective of such an examination must be to enhance efficiency and effectiveness and ensure that in the years ahead the public continues to be served by professional, disciplined, well trained, appropriately organised and effective personnel.

The key to the success of this plan is that the military authorities themselves want to take possession of this process and make the necessary changes to their structure and organisation. They recognise the importance of having control of their own reform process rather than being presented with an imposed solution. Their overall objective, as adverted to in previous studies, is to make more personnel available for operational duties.

Finally, I believe consultation is an important element in this process. There are many issues on which the associations may negotiate as a matter of right, in accordance with the scope of representation. These are the rules which have been laid down for the conduct of representative association business and to which the associations themselves agreed at the setting up of the organisations by legislation in 1990. Within these rules come the various issues which would generally be described as pay and conditions of service.

There are other issues relating to the EAG process which clearly do not fall within the scope of representation but on which I feel the representative associations should be consulted. I have done this extensively because it is my firm belief that the best way to effect the reforms which the Defence Forces need is by securing the commitment and co-operation of the personnel. I have met representatives of PDFORRA on a total of five occasions since taking office and I have also met RACO and REDFRA. In addition there have been frequent meetings at official level and another such meeting is arranged for Thursday. As a result of this comprehensive process of consultation the original recommendations for reform in the Price Waterhouse report were extensively reviewed. The proposals eventually brought forward by Government were heavily modified to take account of the views already expressed by the associations.

The Defence Estimate for the year 1996 is for a gross sum of £393 million, an increase of more than £9 million on the 1995 figure. The bulk of the Estimate —£308 million or approximately 80 per cent — provides for pay and allowances. The high proportion of the Defence Vote expended on this item is one issue which will be addressed over the entire period of the reorganisation plan. The objective is to achieve a situation where a greater proportion of the Defence Vote can be allocated to discretionary expenditure. One way this will be realised will be through savings in the payroll area on foot of the reduction in overall strength to 11,500 by the end of the first phase of the plan. I am aiming towards a more favourable ratio of 70 per cent pay to 30 per cent non-pay in the long term. This will enable us to make a more significant investment in new accommodation and equipment for the Defence Forces.

This year's Estimate for pay represents an increase of £11 million on last year's outturn. The Estimate includes provision for an average other ranks strength of 11,000 and an officer strength of 1,525. Provision is also made for the training of approximately 9,000 FCA and Slua Muirí personnel.

Non-pay expenditure totalling approximately £85 million is detailed in 30 subheads. A synopsis of the subheads has been circulated to Members of the committee. About £14 million of the non-pay element will be used for building and maintenance works in barracks around the country. The majority of this will be spent on major building and refurbishment works in Cathal Brugha Barracks and McKee Barracks in Dublin arising from the closure of Collins Barracks.

Another major programme of investment is ongoing in the acquisition of state of the art VHF communications equipment. Over £3 million will be spent on the acquisition of the latest secure frequency-hopping VHF radio communications equipment which will enhance the operational capability of the Defence Forces.

I would like to draw the attention of Members to the provision in the Estimates of £2.45 million for Civil Defence. The Civil Defence organisation runs on the voluntary and unpaid service of thousands of volunteers throughout Ireland. I will not dwell on the subject as my colleague, the Minister of State, who has special responsibility for Civil Defence, may have an opportunity to address you later on the topic and will be pleased to deal with any questions you may have.

The last item in the Defence Estimate is Appropriations-in-Aid. This is the estimate of the revenue which will be received by the Department in the course of 1996. Income arises from a number of sources, including the sale of surplus property, assistance from the EU in respect of the costs of fishery protection and payments from the banks for cash escorts. Provision is also made for the reimbursement from the United Nations for the costs of Irish troops serving with United Nations missions. Last year approximately £4.5 million was received form the United Nations. Almost £13 million remains outstanding and no effort is spared in attempting to have the appropriate payments made to us. The difficulty, as always, lies with the non-payment of dues to the United Nations by the major powers although they have in recent years made some inroads into those arrears.

I would now like to turn to the Army Pensions Estimate for the year ending 31 December 1996. The Estimate is for a gross sum of £73 million representing an increase of £18 million or 33 per cent on the 1995 outturn. Details regarding this Estimate have also been circulated to Members of the committee.

The bulk of the expenditure from the Estimate falls under the subhead E1 and covers pensions and gratuities granted under the Defence Forces pensions schemes to former members of the Defence Forces and their dependants. These items account for 86 per cent of the total Estimate with approximately 6,600 pensioners. The significant increase this year in this subhead is accounted for by the fact that payments under the voluntary early retirement scheme to which I referred earlier in the context of the EAG review of the Defence Forces, will be made under this heading.

That concludes my overview of the Estimates and I would like to thank you for your attention. I will be pleased to assist Members of the committee in addressing any questions they may have on the Estimates.

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive address covering the Department of Defence. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Higgins, who, like the Minister, is attending this committee for the first time.

It is a sign of the times that, while we are primarily dealing with Estimates, the Minister has decided to deal with wider issues. More than three-quarters of his speech dealt with matters outside the Estimates.

I strongly deplore the hideous bogus calls to the Air Corps' sea rescue services. The Minister rightly paid tribute to the commitment and dedication of people serving in that area and to the debt we owe them. It is reprehensible and unacceptable that they should be called out on bogus calls. I hope the culprits are apprehended and quickly brought to justice.

This debate on the Defence Estimates is overshadowed by a serious break-down in the partnership between the Government and the social partners. We have already had difficulties in the nursing and teaching professions as well as in the Garda Síochána. There has also been paralysis in the agricultural area due to a go slow there. Three weeks ago, this committee heard from representatives of RACO, PDFORRA, the FCA and Slua Muiri giving a detailed account of their respective positions on the first phase of the implementation plan and review of the Defence Forces.

In one way or another, each group in turn rounded on the Minister on the basis of what they claimed was a lack of consultation. That culminated in one of those associations calling for the resignation of the Minister for Defence. I have no wish to exacerbate any of those problems because the role of the Defence Forces in the security of the country is far too serious and no attempt should be made to worsen the existing difficulties. Nonetheless we must refer to these developments and seek from the Minister further assurances that amicable solutions to the remaining problems can be found.

Under questioning from Members of this committee, each of the associations was anxious to have — as the Minister alluded to in his speech — greater ownership of the changes as far as possible. We live in a time when consensus and agreement are critically important in the implementation of national development plans. It is a long time since we have had a review of, or change in, the Defence Forces. Consequently, it is vital to raise morale and find solutions to achieve the widest possible consultation and make sure we end up with good results.

It is an ambitious programme because one needs highly trained and motivated men and women to perform tasks which most of us would prefer not to be called upon to do. No one can say their tasks are easy. We are proud of the services they provide in the United Nations and with air and sea rescue and security on the domestic scene. It is, therefore, critically important to enhance the consultative process. The Minister referred to a number of meetings he has had, but he should take every possible step to deal with outstanding problems and the air of uncertainty. In that way we can continue to make progress in this vital area.

Nobody has argued against the need for change. The expenditure in these Estimates covers a range of functions and salaries of a great number of people in the Department of Defence and in the Defence Forces themselves. We cannot be sure what future challenges we will face so it is important to tease out all aspects as well as we can. The primary areas are pay, conditions of service and career development. The Minister should expand on his ideas for these areas which keep cropping up. One cannot impose too much authority from the top in relation to these matters and consultations must take place before solutions can be found.

As regards the age profile of the Defence Forces, has the Minister changed his mind about five year service contracts? I have. The evidence continues to show that we need more young people joining the Army, but if they do not reach the rank of corporal after five years their contracts end. We will have to rethink the recruitment policy to see whether the extension of these contracts and a more certain way of ensuring that the talents and skills developed in the Army have an opportunity to mature. The Government needs to seriously reexamine those circumstances.

We will probably not be able to deal with the age profile problems to the extent we would wish unless we search for a new and better way of doing so. The indications are that there is a good interest in the voluntary early retirement scheme. It is not always a good sign that great numbers wish to leave the Army. It could be that the early retirement scheme is attractive but it could also point to low morale over conditions or uncertainty about promotional opportunities. What will happen to those who do not opt for voluntary early retirement? While I accept the Minister's word that there will be no compulsory early retirement, he should explain how the scheme will work in future for members of some ranks who do not opt for the scheme.

I welcome the Minister's statement that the number of Army bands will not be reduced. I take it that refers to the current four Army bands but not necessarily to the numbers participating in the bands. The Minister should enlighten the committee whether all 200 or so bandsmen posts will still be available in future. I also welcome the Minister's assurance, given earlier in the Dáil, about the Army Equitation School.

I welcome the Minister's speech which comes at a time when we are all witnessing great change in our Defence Forces. Let us hope that the restructuring about which we have all spoken can be put in place. The Minister says it will take ten years before the plan can be fully realised. I hope it can be done in harmony.

One must look at the lack of morale in the Defence Forces that led to the establishment of the representative bodies. I do not wish to make political points. Fianna Fáil was in Government at the time and to a certain extent the Army's loyalty to the country was taken for granted. To a large extent we dismissed their claims or certainly did not treat them as we should. It came a bit late but when the representative bodies were set up we all agreed they were badly needed.

Over the past couple of weeks PDFORRA in particular has been critical of the Minister and, as they put it, the lack of proper consultation regarding the implementation plan. The Minister has gone out of his way to explain the number of meetings he has had with them and the type of consultation that has taken place. Why does PDFORRA feel it has not had a meaningful role in the implementation plan for restructuring the Defence Forces? Why do its members feel so aggrieved? The Minister is meeting PDFORRA on Thursday and I would like to see proper relations being restored between him and that organisation. As he said, if the reform is to be successful it will require support from everyone.

That is an outrageous comment.

Does the Minister not want to hear what I am saying?

I will answer the Deputy in a second.

What is the purpose of today's exercise? We listened to the Minister's speech for 15 minutes, yet I have only a couple of minutes. If the Minister does not want to listen to me I can leave or he can leave, but the purpose of the Committee is to exchange views.

The call from PDFORRA caused much publicity but I would like to see good relations being restored between the Minister and that organisation. PDFORRA has many members and it is important for them to be fully aware of the long-term plans and where their future lies.

The Minister is happy with the number of applicants for the voluntary early retirement scheme. Having met some of those who applied, there is a big worry, particularly among category C people, who feel they are being obliged to apply. They think that if they do not apply for voluntary retirement they will be dismissed at a later stage. I am sure that point has been exaggerated but they need to be reassured and I hope that can be done.

The Minister dealt with barrack closures. We have heard over and over that there will be no barrack closures for three years, but anyone who studies the implementation plan will see it is not possible to keep every barracks open. The Minister said the overall objective adverted to in previous studies is to make more personnel available for operational duties, but can that be achieved if we are to keep all barracks open? The Minister highlighted the budget imbalance, 80 per cent of which goes towards pay and allowances. Until we can reduce that figure to 70 per cent the necessary reform will not take place.

Tá brón orm nach bhfuil urlabhraí mo pháirtí, An Teachta Peadar Clohessy, in ann a bheith anseo mar go bhfuil sé tinn. Tharla sin go tobann agus tá mé anseo gan moran notice, mar a dhéarfá.

Ba mhaith liom buíochas agus comhgháirdeas mo pháirtí a ghabháil le h-éinne a thug seirbhís in Oglaigh na hÉireann, san Arm, sa Chabhlach agus san Aer Cóir agus leo súd atá ag tabhairt seirbhís ann faoi láthair. Tá sé cinnte go bhfuil misneach taispeáinte acu ag comhlíonadh na ndualgaisí atá orthu. Tá dúracht taispeáinte acu chomh maith agus éifeacht leis an job a chur i gcríoch. Táimid an-bhródúil ar fad as an obair atá déanta acu go háirithe nuair a théann siad thar lear ar mhisiúin ar son na Náisiún Aontaithe. Tá ard-chaighdeán bainte amach acu súd a thug agus atá fós ag tabhairt seirbhís in Oglaigh na hÉireann ar feadh na mblianta agus faoi láthair. Ar ndóigh, tá deachrachtaí faoi leith ag brú orthu súd atá i seirbhís faoi láthair de bharr na n-athraithe atá faoi chaibidil ag an Aire. Is maith an rud éáfach go bhfuil athscrúdúá dhéanamh mar tá géarghá leis. Tá súil agam go mbeidh sé de mhisneach ag an Aire dul i bhfad níos faide ná mar atá molta aige go dtí seo.

It is difficult to comment on the subject of defence expenditure in the Irish context because we do not have a clearly stated defence policy in the normal sense. Our defence policy was originally defined as being the defence of the State against external aggression. As the Minister outlined in his speech, that wording was changed by the Government in 1993 to read "to defend the State against armed aggression, this being a contingency, preparations for its implementation will depend on ongoing Government assessment of threats;".

The substitution of the word "armed" for "external" would appear to indicate that the main function envisaged for the Defence Forces is dealing with civil war. Generally speaking, our stated defence policy lacks clarity and precision. There is, for instance, no clearly identifiable armed aggressor against which we might need to defend ourselves. Accordingly, it is very difficult to assess the capability of our Defence Forces to repel any external attack.

Ireland is militarily neutral. For most countries neutrality is an expensive policy option. Without access to the economies of scale and the benefits of cooperation that membership of an alliance brings, neutral states have to invest heavily in their own defence structures. It is for this reason that countries such as Sweden and Switzerland, for example, are heavy spenders on defence and have also built up substantial military-industrial bases.

Switzerland, as a landlocked state, has invested heavily in tanks and other mechanised equipment. One of the primary aims of Switzerland's defence policy is to repel any land-borne invasion of their national territory from whatever quarter. In practice, the Swiss operate a policy of deterrence. Any intending aggressor knows that trespassing on Swiss territory would be too costly in military terms and, consequently, not worth the candle.

By contrast, our defence budget is small. We spend a little over 1 per cent of gross domestic product on defence which, in 1996, will be about £450 million. As an island nation, it might be expected that if the Swiss have tanks we should have ships. Yet, our navy is small and amounts to no more than a coast-guard operation primarily concerned with drug interdiction, fishery protection and sea rescue. I would doubt the capacity of our Naval Service to repel a seaborne invasion. Such naval capacity as we have we owe in large measure to the European Union which has funded much of our fishery protection fleet. We have had no military ship building capability of our own since the 1970s when the last vessel was launched from the Verolme Cork Dockyard.

By contrast, the Swedes are world leaders in naval technology, building their own submarines and warships. They are at the cutting edge of naval military technology. They have now developed ships which, like the US stealth bomber, are invisible to radar.

Our Army is small and about to get smaller. Our Naval Service lacks military punch and our military air capability is modest. Any outside observer would conclude that we did not take our defence responsibilities seriously. At the very least it is apparent that we do not devote anything like the same resources to our defences as other small European neutrals do.

It is fair to say that our defence policy has been based on the presumption that there were virtually no circumstances in which Ireland would ever be singled out for individual attack. If aggression occurred it would most likely be directed against the West in general or against the European Union. In either case Ireland would be able to shelter under somebody else's security umbrella, though without explicitly committing itself to any military alliance. The lack of a clearly defined policy for our Defence Forces is an issue that must be confronted before the current review is implemented.

We cannot redesign and restructure the Defence Forces unless we know precisely what we expect of them. If their major role is in assisting the civil power — preventing civil war, effectively — then what we need is a lightly armed paramilitary police force without the need for a great deal of heavy equipment. If, however, their major role is in defending the country against external aggression, then an entirely different structure for the Defence Forces is appropriate with much heavier spending required on equipment and munitions. Equally, if it is envisaged that Ireland will participate either partially or fully in some kind of international military alliance, then an entirely different approach to the management of the Defence Forces is required.

There needs to be a proper debate on this issue. Unless we have a clear policy on defence we cannot have a clear policy on the Defence Forces. It is vital to have a clear mission statement for all branches of the Defence Forces. Without clarification in this area it is difficult to make proper judgments on the proposals set out in the Defence Forces' review. Questions have been raised, for instance, as to whether the reduced strength of the Forces envisaged in the review would be sufficient to defend the country against external aggression. Questions have also been raised as to whether the reduced Forces would be capable of enforcing our policy of military neutrality. Further questions have been raised as to whether sufficient attention has been paid in the review to the need for armoured vehicles and similar equipment in the Forces.

We have never had a comprehensive debate about the defence issue. It is now time to do so before embarking on such a major restructuring of our Defence Forces. The time is opportune for a full Dáil debate on defence policy in general involving both the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

I hope the Minister can persuade the Government to arrange a special debate on defence policy for the next session of the Dáil. For the first time we would then have an opportunity to take an overall look at where we are going in the area of defence — and, therefore, what requirements we are placing on the Defence Forces — and what equipment, numbers and organisation would best be fitted to ensure that we could successfully implement and maintain that policy.

That, however, is not a suitable subject for debate on the Estimates with which we are confronted. In the context of this discussion, I pay tribute to all those men and women who have served in the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps down through the years, as well as those who are serving in these difficult times with a major review under way and being implemented. On behalf of my own party and everyone in the Oireachtas, I thank those who have served voluntarily in the FCA, to which unfortunately the Minister has made no reference in his speech.

I did not see the letters FCA used. I also pay tribute to the smaller number who have served in Slua Muirí. Loyal service has been given to this State and to the international community through our participation in United Nations peacekeeping operations. A high standard has been achieved by our men, despite restrictions on equipment and facilities.

The policies of recent Governments have meant that recruiting practically came to a halt. As a result, the age profile rose and duties on older members became more onerous until we were forced into this review. It is aimed at retiring members out of the force and bringing in young people. That should not have happened in one operation. A steady policy of recruitment should have been maintained over the years to avoid this kind of major transition. It is a period of trauma for those who have given such loyal service throughout their lives to the Defence Forces, serving in the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps.

I hope my request to the Minister will be fruitful and that we can have a debate on the Defence Forces in the Dáil in the not too distant future.

That concludes the opening statements on behalf of the various parties. We now move to the various subheads, beginning with subhead A — Vote 36. I ask Members to confine themselves to remarks on the subheads, otherwise, we will not get through them at all. A number of important questions were asked of the Minister and I know Members want him to have an opportunity to reply, particularly to Deputy Smith's and Deputy Power's questions. Again I ask Members to be conscious of that in the course of their contributions on the subheads. If we do not come across the answers to the general questions in the debate of the subheads, I am anxious that the Minister and, indeed, the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Higgins, would have ample opportunity to deal with them.

Since a number of the points which were raised will come up again during the examination of the subheads, if you wish, I can answer some of them now and get them out of the way before we examine the subheads.

If Deputy Power misunderstood me and thought I was interrupting him, I apologise. My frustration was not directed at him and his right to speak but at some of the things that are being said which are totally untrue.

Would Members prefer that we keep to answers in the examination of the subheads?

Some of the questions range over a number of subheads, so they may need to be answered again. If the Minister wants to refer to some of them at this stage, we may even gain some time. I am happy with that suggestion.

If we continue along the lines of a general debate, we will not conclude our business. Perhaps the Minister should deal with some of the specific questions which were asked.

What would that do for your timetable, Chairman?

We are running about 15 minutes behind schedule, but there is no reason we cannot continue.

What about the timetable, the order of events? Are you grouping the subheads or are you changing that format?

All the contributions covered all the subheads anyway——

More or less, yes. I hope we would get through the subheads fairly quickly.

Mr. Fitzgerald

——so it would be wise if we heard the Minister respond to some of the issues raised.

On the matter of consultation with the representative associations, I personally toured all the commands and spoke to officers, NCOs and men. Where I was asked, I met representatives of the various representative associations and answered any questions or queries. Any time I was asked for a meeting with any of the representative associations I agreed.

In regard to the latest episode, I was not asked for a meeting — I did not even know this was taking place. At the last meeting which was requested with the officials of the Department, the PDFORRA representatives came in, read out a statement and walked out. I have asked for a note of their concerns because I am as anxious as anybody to consult, listen and, hopefully where it is possible, help. I have said repeatedly that this should be in the ownership of the military authorities themselves, in the men and women who serve in the Defence Forces. It is ultimately for their benefit, and where it is possible within the regulations, etc., to meet the demands of representative associations, we do so. A number of issues have already been sorted out with RACO, for arguments sake, with whom there has been ongoing discussion.

I am glad that PDFORRA has listened to my request to submit its concerns, because I understand it has asked for a meeting next Thursday with the officials. In the normal course of events, there are structures in place for a meeting with officials. If it is necessary for the Minister to involve himself, I am only too pleased to get involved. The committee must bear in mind that there are structures in place for discussions and I am anxious that those structures be followed. Therefore, I am as surprised as anybody else that there seems to be this issue of lack of consultation, because any time I was asked for a meeting I met the representatives.

A number of fears have been expressed. I have said repeatedly that there is no question of compulsory redundancy in any sector or quarter of the Defence Forces. This is purely a voluntary scheme. There are regulations in place at present in respect of medical category C, etc. Nobody will be pushed out. People who want to stay on are entitled to do so. I repeat, there is no question of anybody being forced to retire. The existing regulations will apply in the normal way. No new regulations will be introduced as a backdoor means of forcing people out of the Defence Forces. I do not know how many times I have to say that, but I want to repeat it here because I have been asked the question by Members of the Opposition parties.

Deputy Power asked me again about barracks closures, etc. The reason we cannot discuss barracks closures is that we are at a very early stage of a reform process. The Government took a decision that it was not closing any barracks. I cannot tell the committee that a future Government will not reverse that decision. It may happen; I do not know. I am only telling the committee of the decisions taken now, because I recognise, and the Government recognises, that the socio-economic effects of the closing of a barracks in many towns is the equivalent to the closure of a major factory. I am not in the business of disturbing, worrying and upsetting people unnecessarily. As I said, this will take at least ten years to review and future requirements are a matter for ongoing consideration. I am trying to be as honest and open as possible on that issue, but I would advise any future Government which is even considering closing a barracks to have discussions with local communities well in advance about alternative opportunities for the particular town, otherwise, a person can wake up one morning, find the local barracks has been closed without any consultation and have to deal with its effects on the local economy.

The more people spread rumours about the possibility of barrack closures, the more we upset ordinary individuals who have families, mortgages, children in school, etc. Whatever the reason, it is unfair that these matters arise because it imposes unnecessary concern on ordinary human beings about their future and that of their children. I have endeavoured to try to eliminate those fears so there will be no doubt in anybody's mind as to where we stand.

Deputy Power asked about medical category C. There are no changes proposed in the regulations in relation to category C personnel. They will not be forced to avail of the voluntary early retirement scheme; there is no question of so asking them. Provision is made for them to do so if they so wish. If they do not, they stay on. If, at a later stage, the regulations must deal with that issue, it will be a matter of normal ongoing practice. There is no change proposed, and I want to stress that again. Nobody will be forced out of the Defence Forces, not by way of new regulations, backdoor means or anything else. That is not what is intended. Because it is a voluntary scheme, it is difficult to predict the take-up in the future but, as I said in my opening remarks, there have been nearly 1,000 applicants to date.

I do not accept that the high take-up is an indication of low morale. I have no indication of that from my tour and from speaking to the Chief of Staff and the senior officers. The committee is free to speak to them, if it wishes, but there is no such indication. The reality is that this is an attractive scheme and the best of luck to people who wish to make a change of career and avail of this once-off option of a lump sum and, perhaps move on to something else. If they want to do that, good luck to them. If they qualify, this amount is in addition to their normal pensions and gratuities.

This leads to the other question, that is, recruitment. This is not like running a factory, as Members will know. This is about running a defence force — an army, a navy and an air corps. For various reasons, you need people who are available for operational duties. We do not want trained and qualified soldiers to do clerical work that could be done by civilians — there was a similar position in the Garda some years ago. We wish to make certain that people who are trained to do a professional soldiering, naval or Air Corps job can do it and will not be left doing mundane administrative jobs which could easily be done by someone else at far less cost. We are endeavouring to have more people available in the Defence Forces for operational duties rather than carrying around cups of tea or doing other things which could be done by civilian or contract workers — basically, we are putting in place modern structures. It would have been easier not to do anything because if one tries to bring in change people may fear the result. One does one's best not to rush change, so this is being done over ten years rather than going in like a bull in a china shop to do things overnight. We are trying to bring in change and new structures slowly so that we can gear ourselves to them as time goes by.

When I was in Opposition, the five year contract for soldiers was introduced — the first intake was in 1994 — and I had my doubts about them. I am told there was an enormous number of applicants for those positions. I do not know how many of those who joined will want to stay after five years; initially the guideline was that if one reached the rank of NCO one would be offered a contract renewal. I have inherited that decision but I have not yet discussed it with anyone.

I am open to discussions and suggestions as to what is in the best interest of the Defence Forces. However, in running a modern Army, Naval Service and Air Corps we cannot allow another age profile problem to arise. That is the nature of the matter. This is not to say I am not prepared to sit down with this committee or anyone else to discuss the merits of this proposal — I do not have all the wisdom on this issue. We must beware that we do not fall back into the position in which we find ourselves at the moment. We are trying to deal with our age profile problem in a humane way by offering a voluntary early retirement scheme.

If I may respond to Deputy Power again, it is frustrating to be accused of something in the media when one has already answered the charge several times, especially when the media twist the issue and make people worry. That is what concerns me. We are politicians; we can take it because that is the business we are in, but every time there is a rumour that people in category C will be put out of the Defence Forces, people become afraid their spouses will be let go, even though that is untrue. We are not going to introduce regulations which will force them out through the back door. We are dealing with human beings and families and this is why I become frustrated and upset. When I go around the country to meet these people in barracks and headquarters I am conscious that they are decent people who serve this country well. The minimum we can do is to show them respect by being open and honest with them. If any Government was to introduce compulsory redundancy, that would be a different matter; this is purely voluntary. I do not know what else I can say to satisfy people.

In response to Deputy Smith, I accept that good relationships are important. I do not want to return to the position of several years ago; it does not matter who was in Government then, it was not I but that is beside the point because we all have too much respect for the Defence Forces to want that. Certain regulations were agreed by the Government of that time and the representative associations; we have to operate under them, so do they and that is all I ask them to do. If discussions with officials are needed or suggestions are made, I am only too pleased to listen to them but I cannot discuss things if I do not know what people want. I have openly answered Deputies' questions about who will qualify for early retirement; I said there would be no compulsory redundancy and no barrack closures and that the Army bands and the Equitation School would not be abolished. I ask Members to remember that every time these rumours and accusations fly, soldiers and their families are upset.

I think I have covered all the questions but I will be only too pleased to answer further queries under individual subheads.

I thank the Minister. We will start with subhead A.

I have to leave to move a Bill shortly but I have comments to make on this subhead and some other points I can make quickly. In common with everyone who has spoken, I have the highest regard for the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps, especially for their function and role in the United Nations. Our task today is to examine the Estimates and make useful comments on matters of particular interest.

On pay and pensions, the biggest increase is £18 million for the voluntary early retirement scheme. What is the extra cost specifically for that scheme this year and what is its cost in a full year? Since it is only being phased in this year the cost would be reduced somewhat. As this cost was initially only estimated, does the Minister now consider this money will definitely be required given that there may be a delay in the implementation of the voluntary early retirement scheme? Is it on schedule to draw down the money anticipated and, if not, how much would not be used?

Subhead A7 is the consultancy fee. I am surprised it is as low as £20,000. It makes one wonder if any advice is being taken on matters within the Department. There must be great scope for improvement, whether with computerisation or other technologies. Are they covered elsewhere or is there no contribution in that direction?

I note the figure for the Reserve Defence Force is just £4.18 million; I mention this because we often hear about suggested cutbacks and savings in that area but the total contribution is relatively small. As was said at this committee on other occasions, it plays an important function in the life of the community.

Under Subhead N, a sum of £4.2 million is provided; clothing comes under this subhead. How and where are the current clothing contracts placed? They are valuable in generating employment at home.

Under subheads X, D and EE, the national lottery has provided £1.195 million to the Departments of Defence and the Marine. In years of great shortage, this was an important contribution to keep the Equitation School, the Irish Red Cross Society and Coiste an Asgard. Is that still necessary or can it be covered by the Department's allocations? Could the money from the national lottery then go to those with disabilities who are seeking increased support?

I welcome the development of the east coast night flying helicopter. I was anxious to see that service being provided, particularly because of the high level of fishing, leisure and boating activities off the east coast. This service has been successful off the west coast, albeit at a high cost. When does the Minister see the enhanced full service becoming available? It is particularly important for places like Dun Laoghaire and Howth, which suffered a tragedy recently. The Minister commented on this at the time and it encouraged him to take action.

Under subhead Z1, UN receipts have decreased from £4.5 million to £2.5 million. How much is still due and why did this amount decrease this year? I presume it is not because of the Department looking for the money but perhaps the Minister can explain it. How much is estimated as still being due to the Department of Defence and the Marine in this area? The Department of Foreign Affairs has a function in requesting this payback.

Subhead Z2 concerns EU fishery protection receipts. They have decreased from £2.68 million to £500,000. Can the Minister explain that? I was delighted that the EU was providing a contribution towards fishery protection operational costs amounting to £4.3 million. It is a major and important development for Ireland and is a major breakthrough. Since we have a huge task in protecting our fish stocks and fighting the importation of drugs, it is especially helpful for the EU to give this assistance.

A figure of 9,000 is given for the FCA and Slua Muiri. How many are members of An Slua Muiri? I am sure they would only constitute a small part of the overall figure.

Deputy Fitzgerald on subhead A on the basis that Deputy Woods was given a lot of latitude.

I thank the Minister for his reassurances in a number of areas. In his contribution he commented on the Naval Service and Air Corps and the role these services are increasingly playing in backing up the civil powers in combating the illegal importation of drugs. Does the Minister envisage, given the huge threat from this area — and he has firmly acknowledged that — a significant expansion in that service in the short to medium term? I am not asking this for any mischievous reason, and I hope the Minister will accept that, but out of concern.

The definition of the role of the Defence Forces, as the Minister articulated, was to defend the State against armed aggression. One could say we should defend it against aggression. Importation of drugs is a phenomenal and escalating threat of international proportions to the security of our State and I am not exaggerating. The civil powers' role in that context is ongoing and increasing. Because of the depth of concern on that issue, is it envisaged to expand the service in the short to medium term?

I thought the Minister was replying to all that was said at the outset; he made no reference to anything I said. Some people are interested in the overall defence policy and the future intention as to the role of our Defence Forces. Some elaboration by the Minister before this discussion concludes would be appreciated. I am interested in getting background information on some of these major changes.

Subhead A4 provides a 27 per cent increase in postal and telecommunications services. I had some experience of departmental Estimates. I would not have expected that, on a year to year basis, a projected increase of this size would be warranted, but I am sure the Minister can explain it.

Can the Minister give us some background information on subhead A5, which is providing a hefty 27 per cent increase in the amount allocated for office machinery and other office supplies. How the Minister succeeded in getting such a huge increase through the Department of Finance warrants some explanation. It must relate to something specific. Office premises expenses has increased by 44 per cent from £481,000 to £694,000. Can the Minister elaborate on the justification for that? What is involved? I am not criticising the Minister. If I knew what it was for, I might be able to form an opinion on it.

Over £500,000 is being provided under subhead E — chaplains and officiating clergymen's pay and allowances. Can the Minster tell this committee how many chaplains of different denominations are on the payroll of his Department?

Under subhead H — aircraft — there is a substantial reduction of 23 per cent from £16.8 million to £12.9 million. Can the Minister explain this reduction? Can he inform the committee of his intentions as regards expenditure under this heading? Does this include leasing aircraft? A tender went out for an aircraft for the purposes of Ireland's Presidency of the EU and it appears that a contract was awarded recently. Was his Department involved and, if so, can the Minister give us the details?

The Estimate also shows a substantial reduction — 26 per cent — under subhead J — ships and naval stores. Is there an explanation for that or is it a cost cutting exercise? A sudden reduction in that area can often cause strain for those responsible for maintaining the operational efficiency of vessels in the Naval Service if the required parts are not readily available.

Under subhead V, which relates to buildings, there is an increase of 21 per cent from £11.5 million to £14 million. Where is it proposed to spend that funding? The Minister referred to a new capital expenditure proposal but can he relate that to the funds being provided? Coiste an Asgard is an excellent service and worthy of full support by the State. I am interested that the Minister is increasing last year's allocation from £300,000 to £400,000, an additional one-third. A similar amount appears to have been provided for the Equitation School. Will the Minister offer a justification for the one-third increase in funding? Is a major purchase or a major expansion of the service envisaged?

We appear to be dealing with the questions in reverse order. The Minister would need to be a Houdini to keep pace. Perhaps he will deal with subhead A as many of the questions relate to later subheads. The Minister can then proceed to subheads B to F. Deputy Woods' and Deputy Molloy's questions related to later subheads and the answers will have to wait until we reach them.

Subhead A4 relates to postal and telecommunications services. The extra provision is mainly for a new telephone system in the Department's office in Galway.

I will not object to that. I hope it relates to an expansion of the services in Galway. Is there not an industrial difficulty in Galway at present?

That is part of the CPSU nationwide difficulties and is not peculiar to the Department.

I am glad to hear that. The departmental staff in Galway are very welcome.

It is not affecting operations. Subhead A5 relates to major investment for the renewal of computer infrastructure.

What computer infrastructure? Where?

It is a new payroll system in Galway.

That is fine; I have no objection.

The Deputy is being parochial.

Subhead A6 relates to additional costs associated with the return of the Department's head office to Parkgate Street. The Deputy, a former Minister for Defence, will recall Parkgate Street. It is being refurbished at present and the Department and the Minister's office are currently located in Glasnevin.

What will happen to Coláiste Caoimhin, the vacated premises? Will it be disposed of?

That has not been discussed yet. It depends on what space will be available and what will be required.

I take it there are no departmental staff in Parkgate Street while refurbishment is under way. Were they all transferred to Coláiste Caoimhín?

The departmental staff were.

Many of the staff were transferred to Galway some years ago.

When the Department returns to Parkgate Street, what will happen to the Coláiste Caoimhín building?

We are pulling out of Park House and retaining Coláiste Caoimhín.

What sections will be in Coláiste Caoimhín?

That has not been decided yet. It will be early next year before there will be move back to Parkgate Street.

How many of the Minister's staff are in Park House?

About 60.

That is the number being transferred back to Parkgate Street?

Plus military.

When Parkgate Street is reoccupied by the Department and the military, how many personnel will be accommodated in and operational from Parkgate Street headquarters?

About 200.

That will leave many vacancies somewhere. Only 60 are coming from Park House and 140 from Coláiste Caoimhín. What will happen to the space at Coláiste Caoimhín?

This has not been discussed yet. The number that will be catered for in Parkgate Street will be approximately 200. Sixty staff who are currently in Park House will vacate that location and move to Coláiste——

They will be going to Parkgate Street.

There will be Parkgate Street and Coláiste Caoimhín.

I am getting more confused. The Minister said that 60 officers of the Department would transfer from Park House to Parkgate Street when headquarters is refurbished.

The Deputy asked who would be likely to be in Coláiste Caoimhín and what would be the likely number. At present we have staff in Park House and in Coláiste Caoimhín. There is no departmental staff in Parkgate Street. When Parkgate Street is ready, some departmental and some military staff will go there. Park House will be vacated and there will be staff in Coláiste Caoimhín. That is the present plan.

I am sorry to hold up the meeting. The Department was accommodated at Parkgate Street and Coláiste Caoimhín some years ago. Substantial sections, which mainly dealt with pensions and payments, transferred to a new building constructed in Galway. Parkgate Street has been vacated because of refurbishment and some of those people went to Park House, which was rented temporarily and some went to Coláiste Caoimhín. If they are to return to Parkgate Street while a large section of the Department is now located in Galway, there must have be a major vacancy in Coláiste Caoimhín as a result of the overall reductions the Minister has proposed in the numbers in the force.

That has nothing to do with it.

Personnel is not expanding; it is diminishing. There should be vacant premises.

At present there will be a requirement for Parkgate Street and Coláiste Caoimhín but there will not be a requirement for Park House. There are staff in Park House and Coláiste Caoimhín and there were some military personnel in Parkgate Street. The military and civilian personnel in the Department will be located between Parkgate Street and Coláiste Caoimhín when Parkgate Street is available again. There will not be a move to spread personnel more thinly in order to occupy buildings that are not needed. If we do not need the building we will not occupy it.

If there are only 60 in Park House there should be excess accommodation in Coláiste Caoimhín. The Minister has failed to establish that.

No decision has been made about it.

That is an easy way out. The Minister should know. The money is provided in the Estimates for 1996.

(Carlow-Kilkenny):They will decide on it next year.

The Minister has explained the increase is due to returning to Parkgate Street.

I will send the Deputy a reply to his question. There are about 300 military personnel spread between these places and they must be accommodated.

A note from the Minister will cover it. I do not wish to hold up the meeting.

Is that agreed? Agreed. Is the committee satisfied with subhead A? Are there any other matters arising? There was a question about consultancy services. The usual question when discussing other Estimates is why are the consultancy fees too high.

A lot of our consultancy money was paid through the EAG, which involved the Department of the Taoiseach.

Only a Labour Minister could spend a fortune on his consultancy.

The EAG is not costing much.

The EAG is funded through the Department of the Taoiseach, not through my Department.

Subhead A1 shows the size of the Minister's secretariat. Have the numbers increased from 15 last year?

It now stands at 20 but that is for the overall secretariat, not for my office.

Why was the increase needed?

An increase in personnel.

When I came to office I located my constituency office in the Department of Defence, not the Department of the Marine. That could account for the increase.

There is a reduction for the Department of the Marine.

I did not have a constituency office in the Department of the Marine.

That completes the debate on subhead A. We will now take subheads B to F.

Is there any provision for recruitment under the contract system for 1996? I know the scheme is tied to the voluntary early retirement scheme. An announcement was made last year about a number to be recruited in the latter end of the year and this was tied in to negotiations. Is there any provision this year for recruitment? Where is the claim for injuries and compensation in the Estimates? Do I take it that existing conditions of employment are sacrosanct in relation to the redundancy scheme?

That is correct. As regards recruitment, the Government decided, when considering the implementation plan, to deal with the age profile problem by offering voluntary early retirement to 2,300 people and recruiting 1,000 — a net reduction of 1,300. We could have dealt with the reduction in numbers by just offering it to 1,300 people but that would not have addressed the age profile problem. Although this measure is more expensive, it is an indication of the willingness to accept all the recommendations in the previous reports about the age profile problem.

My understanding was that we would not have to wait for a recruitment scheme to get a full take-up on the voluntary early retirement scheme. If that is the position, there will be no recruitment.

As the numbers leave this year, we will take in a proportionate number and continue this in 1997 and 1998. Deputy Woods asked a question about money. While we are providing for 2,300 this year, 450 will leave because it will be July before it is taken up. Some £13 million was provided for the voluntary early retirement scheme, plus the pay savings because people will leave in July, which will be approximately £5 million. Some £8 million is available in terms of the voluntary early retirement scheme in 1996. Some 450 people will leave in 1996 and we will recruit approximately 200; approximately 900 will leave in 1997 and 1998. There is an ongoing commitment in this regard. The compensation is dealt with under subhead A (a).

Why is the recruitment this year lower than the redundancies expected?

We are taking out 2,300 and bringing in 1,000; it is proportionate.

The Minister said he was taking out 450 this year and recruiting 200.

That is approximately the proportion.

Will the Minister be in a position to make an announcement on the recruitment scheme shortly after July?

I hope to be in that position. The plan is that as people will leave we will take in.

Is there still room for discussion as to whether the existing contract scheme is continued?

I have not had any discussions about that. As regards the contracts, the issue is who to select of those who wish to continue after a period.

We are not arguing about the general contract scheme. We do not want an age profile problem to develop in the future. The contract scheme should stay. We do not want to lose the investment at an early stage because it would probably be two or three years before people are highly trained in a particular area and then they have a short period to use their talents and skills. This matter should be teased out further.

I would be delighted to have a discussion with the Deputy on this matter. I am as open to discussing his ideas with him as I am with anybody else.

I do not know what that means because the Minister's willingness to discuss is open to different interpretations.

Consultation is a two way process.

It is in Opposition.

We must consult the people who want to consult with us. There was a question on subhead D.

It was about the Slua Muirí numbers.

The strength of An Slua Muirí is 351.

Can the Minister give a breakdown of where they are located? An Slua Muirí is located in only a few places.

I do not have that information with me but I can get it for the Deputy.

Where is an Slua Muirí organised?

The effective strength of the FCA and an Slua Muirí on 31 December 1995 was 15,639, including 2,860 women. The 351 members of an Slua Muirí are located in Cork, Dublin, Waterford and Limerick.

Will the hospital in the Curragh remain open or will the staff be moved to St. Bricin's Hospital? There is provision for a slight increase in Border duty allowances. Will this be sufficient in view of the demands being made on the Army at present?

I have taken a note of the Deputy's questions. However, I will deal with others which have arisen before answering them. There are 20 Roman Catholic chaplains and one Church of Ireland chaplain. There are a number of part-time chaplains who are used when required.

What is the average payment made to them?

There are class A and class C chaplains. The head chaplain, who comes under class A, receives £26,717 a year; class C chaplains receive £25,381 a year and ordinary chaplains receive between £23,135 and £24,353 a year. The salary of the Church of Ireland chaplain, who is part-time, ranges from £7,133 to £7,508.

I did not expect such a huge difference between the various payments.

Some chaplains pay PRSI and others do not. Provision is made for a strength of 21 chaplains, including the head chaplain, two chaplains for the Irish contingent in Lebanon and a Church of Ireland chaplain. In addition, officiating clergymen attend certain military locations on an as required basis. Chaplains are nominated for appointment by the local bishop, and do not normally operate outside their own dioceses unless they go overseas.

How many chaplains go overseas with UNIFIL?

Are they both Catholic or is one Church of Ireland?

The two are Catholic.

How many boats has Slua Muirí? Are there any proposals to increase this number?

I will obtain that information for the Deputy.

With regard to subhead D, some members of the FCA cast lots to decide who will get new uniforms. They sometimes form guards of honour in all shades of green. Is there any possibility of implementing the long standing promise to upgrade FCA uniforms?

Why was the maroon epaulette removed from the FCA uniform? This distinguished it from the regular Army.

The uniform issued to male members of the FCA is similar to that worn by personnel in the Permanent Defence Forces but it incorporates certain distinguishing features. The tunic of the uniform has a maroon badge displaying the letters FCA in gold on the upper left sleeve.

It had a maroon epaulette.

I will find out why this was removed in a moment. A green beret is issued to FCA members. A working dress comprising tunic, trousers, shirt, sweater and footwear is also issued to male members. Female recruits are issued with working dress similar to that issued to male members. An overcoat similar to that issued to female members of the Permanent Defence Forces is also supplied. Arrangements were recently made for the introduction on a phased basis of a new combat dress for all FCA members. Provision of £720,000 has been included in the 1996 Defence Estimates to meet the cost of the first phase, which will involve the issue of 7,000 suits to FCA members with a minimum of one year's service who have a satisfactory attendance record. It is anticipated that the first phase will be completed by 30 September 1996.

Is it the Minister's intention to proceed on an annual basis?

We are proceeding on a phased basis.

On what date was the female officer's uniform designed?

The uniform for female Army personnel was designed by a professional designer. It is a military uniform of a classic design. The cloth used is the same as that used in the making of existing Defence Force uniforms. I do not have the exact date on which this uniform was designed but I will obtain this for the Deputy.

Is it true that this uniform has not been changed since it was designed in 1978 or 1979?

That is probably the case but I will have to check this out for certain.

Is the Minister aware of the desire of female officers to have their uniforms updated? I am sure the Minister will agree that female officers should be as fashion conscious as anyone else and that to require them to continue to wear uniforms which were designed in 1979 is not helpful for morale.

No formal or informal request on this matter has been made to me but I will check it out. Has the Deputy had representations on this matter?

Have I dealt with all the questions which were asked?

I asked about the hospital in the Curragh.

No decision has yet been taken on that matter. If a decision is taken, I will ask my officials to notify the Deputy.

What about Border duty allowances?

All personnel posted to Border units receive a Border duty allowance ranging from £42.55 to £48.12 per week — in other words, £2,218.69 to £2,510.90 per annum — in recognition of the incidence of separation from families and difficult working conditions. This allowance is paid to all irrespective of hours worked. In contrast, personnel who perform certain security duties in non-Border units are paid a security duty allowance only on the occasions of the performance of these duties.

Is it non-taxable?

No, it is taxed. All income paid is taxed. The point I would like to stress is that the allowance is paid to everybody, not only those on the Border.

Given this year's demands, there has been a small increase in the allowance from last year. Does the Minister believe the estimate for 1996 will be sufficient?

I am advised that it will be. Border allowances have become an issue and I made inquiries in this regard. Although there is a difference in the way Defence Forces personnel are paid as against the Garda Síochána, a comparison is made. The Garda Síochána only pay those who are actually on duty on the Border. The allowance is spread among a limited number whereas we give it to all those serving.

Will the Minister accept the comparison is being made between those serving on the Border in the Army uniform and those serving in the Garda Síochána uniform, that the Border allowance which gardaí get is greater than that being paid to those serving in the Defence Forces and that it is the cause of a lot of the resentment among serving personnel?

We must also take into account that all PDF personnel receive a military service allowance of £1,996 per annum to compensate for the special disadvantages of military life.

I do not believe a lot has been done to compensate these people.

There is provision in the Defence Forces conciliation and arbitration scheme to discuss this matter. I invite the representative associations to do so.

We have covered subheads G to BB, inclusive, which provide for the equipment, stores, services and maintenance requirements of the Defence Forces.

I refer to the contract granted in relation to the EU Presidency. Will the Air Corps be involved in piloting the aircraft regardless of from where they come?

It was decided that an air taxi service would be used for the six months of the Presidency as against the Air Corps leasing a plane. We went out to tender for an air taxi service. Tenders received were assessed in the normal way and were advertised through the Europe journal. The person who provided the most comprehensive service at the cheapest rate was awarded the contract.

I realise that was the procedure, but will the Air Corps pilot that aircraft?

No, the aircraft will come with a crew. It is an air taxi service.

We have all had experience in different roles during the Presidency and the Air Corps provided an excellent service. I am sorry it has lost out on this occasion.

It will still pilot the other aircraft available to us, including the Beechcraft and G4.

My earlier questions related to these matters; I presume I do not have to repeat them. Why did the Government decide not to lease an aircraft manned by Air Corps personnel which was done on the last occasion Ireland held the EU Presidency?

The matter was discussed on the basis of the best way to provide a service at the cheapest rate. Rightly or wrongly, the decision was taken that an air taxi service was the best way to go about this. My Department was asked to seek tenders for the provision of this service. We supplied the information we received and the decision was taken in the normal manner in which contracts are placed.

I accept that; I do not believe anything wrong was done. It would be helpful if the Minister would indicate the difference to the committee. If one was a cheaper and more efficient way of doing this, will the Minister tell us how much cheaper it was to employ this English company, this air taxi service, rather than use Air Corps personnel operating a leased aircraft given their extensive experience of flying jet aircraft to the European airports to which Ministers will most likely be flying during the Presidency?

I realise the workload is enormous for Ministers during this period, so it is essential to have an air service which will bring them directly to cities in which they are obliged to attend meetings during the six months of the Presidency. Extra transport facilities are required. If the Government made a decision, surely it had a good basis for it. Perhaps the Minister will indicate the basis for the decision and, in particular, the difference in cost.

I am advised that at the time it was approximately 30 per cent cheaper to use an air taxi service rather than lease an aircraft.

Thirty per cent of what? How much money are we talking about? What is the cost of leasing this aircraft?

It depends on the number of hours it will be used.

The decision was based on estimates. Surely figures were put before the Cabinet by the Minister or the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications?

It was done on the basis of the estimated cost——

What was it?

——of leasing an aircraft and the likely cost based on the projected number of uses of an air taxi. I was advised by those in the best position to do so that the cost would be approximately 30 per cent cheaper.

The Minister would have been given figures or estimates? We are entitled to know because that it what these committees are for. This is a meeting to discuss the Estimate.

The provision we have made for the support service for ministerial transport is £550,000.

That is the overall amount. Does that relate to the air taxi service?

Some £250,000 is the estimated figure for the air taxi service but that depends on usage.

I accept that; I only wanted a ball park figure.

A number of questions were put by Deputy Molloy earlier.

The reduction in the aircraft estimate of 23 per cent is because the payments for the Casa were completed. The reduction in subhead J is due to the non inclusion of EU funded projects. As far as funds will be required for such projects, consideration will be given to making the requisite funds available from the Defence Vote for 1996 as a whole.

Does that make sense to the Minister? It does not make much to me. Will the Minister explain it?

It is because EU funds are not included this year. EU funds which were included last year for particular purposes are not included this year.

I am interested in the level of expenditure under this heading on ships and naval stores. If there is a reduction of 26 per cent in overall expenditure, it is not because EU moneys were made available but rather that fewer items, such as parts and stores, are required. What is the difference in the level of expenditure and what items are involved? I see the figure but what does it involve?

Last year, provision was made for refitting a ship and satellite monitoring equipment. They are not provided for this year and that is the reason for the reduction.

A type of once off item?

Having been in Government the Deputy is aware that, when a ship is being serviced, something can go wrong which was not anticipated. Provision was not made for this cost, but the problem must be overcome. If something unforeseen turns up in terms of the maintenance of a ship, it must be dealt with and the money found for it elsewhere in the Vote.

I am anxious to move on to subheads CC to EE.

There was a question about clothing.

Dr. Woods asked about clothing.

The contracts for clothing are placed by the Government Supplies Agency, mostly with Irish firms.

I asked a question earlier in relation to buildings under subhead V.

That involves the list of the major contracts over £100,000 placed pre 1996 which continue.

What is the position regarding new works?

The moneys included in the Estimates this year are sufficient to complete works which were started last year. Some heavy commitments were entered into last year.

Will new works commence? Have new contracts been entered?

Some new works have been entered into.

The Minister mentioned Cathal Brugha and McKee barracks.

If it would be helpful to Members, I will give the committee the particulars,.

What was the money in subhead W, lands, spent on? The Department has lands at Oranmore in County Galway, which it has leased. What are the long-term plans for those lands?

I will find out the position on Oranmore and communicate with the Deputy. The subhead provides for cost of maintenance of lands and rents of lands and premises for use by the Defence Forces.

The lands I am inquiring about are leased to Galway Corporation and were sublet for use as an airport grass runway. The Aran Islands service started there. At one point, the corporation put proposals to the members regarding the development of a golf course on the lands and this is why I am inquiring about the Department's long-term intentions. Is it proposed to sell the lands to Galway Corporation or a private body?

I am not certain if there have been any discussions on that matter. I will check the position and communicate with the Deputy.

That is a specific question and I think the Deputy expects a reply this afternoon.

Regarding subhead Q, what type of pharmacy facilities are available?

There is a wide range of facilities. Subhead Q provides for the cost of drugs and dressings, hospital and laboratory equipment in the three military hospitals. It also covers the cost of medical treatment for Defence Forces personnel in civilian hospitals. There is a pharmacy.

There is a slight reduction in the Estimate. Does the Minister believe they are more healthy this year? Normally the costs in such areas escalate.

One finds in such situations that it is necessary to buy a piece of equipment one year, but it is not necessary to purchase it the following year. The Deputy will find that provision has been made for whatever was required.

What was the Department's total allocation from the national lottery?

The breakdown of subhead X includes the purchase of horses, £155,000; maintenance, £90,000, and expenses of teams at horse shows, £200,000. It is all national lottery funding.

What is the policy in relation to the purchase of horses? If the policy is to continue the Equitation School, it is important the Army riders have top quality horses with which to compete at international shows. This has the support of the community at large and all sides of the House. The support for the Equitation School also implies support for the idea that they should be provided with top quality showjumping animals. The figure in the Estimates shows a substantial increase on the amount provided last year. I recall that £50,000 was paid for one horse, Rockbarton, in 1997. It turned out to be the best investment the Army had made for many years. If £72,000 was provided last year and £50,000 was paid in 1977, how many good horses could one buy with £155,000, although I recognise it is a large increase on last year's amount?

It is an indication of my commitment to try to do something about the matter. I also succeeded last year in getting some people recruited to the cadets who will be specifically used for the Equitation School.

Had that practice been dropped?

Yes. An ongoing supply of quality riders and horses is needed. I am at present reviewing the policy of how young horses are acquired and how top quality horses are maintained which can compete internationally. The Equitation School was set up in the first place to promote the Irish horse so one cannot have an Irish rider sitting on the back of a German bred horse. There is a difficulty in that regard.

One must buy the best of the Irish.

Correct. The Deputy is a wise man from the west and he knows the value of a horse is what somebody is prepared to pay for it.

It is a wise purchase.

We must be discreet when it comes to showing interest. We do not want the price to go up because we are showing an interest. I am reviewing the structures required. We must also have a policy regarding when we get rid of horses which will not make it. It costs the same amount of money to keep a bad horse in terms of feed, etc.

What is the cost of a good horse?

It depends on the open market price. We are competing with other countries which are constantly monitoring Irish markets for good purchases. It is fortunate that people have been prepared to lease animals to us, which is not a bad policy. I am considering the possibility of obtaining sponsorship from An Bord Fáilte in terms of——

That is the same pot and would involve use of other State sector funds.

It would inject further moneys to the Equitation School.

Sponsorship should be attracted from outside the State sector.

If someone is prepared to come up with the money, I will gladly consider the offer. However, if Bord Fáilte did so, there would at least be an opportunity to attract funding for the Equitation School. I am not particularly concerned about where such moneys originate.

That would mean supplementing one Vote with another. A new Vote should be provided if the money originates in State coffers.

It is not that easy, but at least an attempt is being made to increase the availability of funds for the purchase of horses.

We will now deal with subheads CC to EE which provide for Civil Defence and grants-in-aid for the Irish Red Cross Society and Coiste an Asgard. The Minister of State at the Department of Defence, Deputy Jim Higgins, will provide a brief overview as this area falls under his ambit.

As Minister of State with responsibility for Civil Defence, I welcome the opportunity to express my gratitude to the members of the Civil Defence who undertake so much voluntary work within their local communities. This thanks is in recognition of the tremendous humanitarian work they do throughout the country. During the exceptional flooding which afflicted many parts of the country last year and early this year, I was very conscious, when viewing affected areas, of the tremendous efforts made by volunteers who showed their professionalism and competence in difficult circumstances.

The Civil Defence was initially established to provide for the protection of the civilian population in wartime. Now, however, the organisation is more frequently seen providing assistance to the community, as a support to local activity or in emergencies. The organisation is seen as an integral part of the range of local services available for emergency or community support. This involves close co-operation with the Garda Síochána, the health boards and the fire and other emergency services. The volunteers are available to assist in searches for missing people, provide crowd control at festivals and major events, including ambulance cover, evacuate people from floods and storms, help at major emergencies and prepare for nuclear accidents.

There are currently around 6,000 volunteers actively engaged in civil defence. It is with great pride that I highlight the contribution Civil Defence makes to local communities. I am particularly pleased that the required structures are being put in place and that volunteers' skills are continually developed and defined to meet the challenge of the new millennium with confidence and determination. The "Towards 2000" development programme requires that each local authority identify key areas in which the Civil Defence can further contribute to local communities. Programmes are being undertaken to introduce the training and equipment necessary to enable the organisation to cope with the challenges of a changing world. These include the regular updating of the vehicle fleet, provision of inflatable boats, kayaks, marine-band VHF radio equipment, heights rescue equipment including wet weather gear and modern working dress. Communications equipment is being updated as required in each local authority area.

The provision for the Civil Defence in 1996 to meet these commitments is £2.45 million. I assure the committee that the staff in the Civil Defence are working closely with the local authorities to ensure that the various programmes are implemented in full so that, together, we will provide a modernised organisation more focused to our country's needs.

No provision is made for the involvement of the Civil Defence in the administration of incoming refugees and the homeless in 1996. What is the reason? I wish to be associated with the comments of the Minister of State about the Civil Defence as I participated in Civil Defence for a short period in the past. It is good that funds are being provided to local authorities to extend the remit and meet the commitments of civil defence. Many people are energetically involved in the Civil Defence at local level. I encourage such participation.

The Deputy is correct. A figure of £6,000 was provided last year for administration of incoming refugees and the homeless but this year that responsibility has been assumed by the health boards.

Is the Minister of State sure about that?

I understand that is the correct position. No cost devolves to the Department or the Civil Defence.

The battle continues between Departments with regard to who carries the can in this regard. I hope that the unfortunate people to whom I referred do not fall between two stools. Is the Minister of State giving an assurance that the health boards are assuming this responsibility?

Yes. It is my understanding that they are assuming the responsibility and adequately discharging it. We have no complaints in that regard. I share the Deputy's view about the need to enhance equipment. Two weeks ago I had the pleasure to present 19 vehicles to different units of the organisation. Civil Defence volunteers and officers greatly appreciate any additional equipment they receive. One can see the almost palpable sense of pride when they are given a new ambulance, four wheel drive vehicle or kayak.

Last year I had the opportunity to witness the high level of exercises carried out in Clonmel, Blarney, Westport and Castlebar as part of the "Towards 2000" development programme — Community Endeavour 1995. During these exercise people pitted themselves against challenging real life situations which is evidence of the tremendous work of the Civil Defence.

Before moving to the Department of Defence, I served as Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibility for the Office of Public Works. This time last year I was up to my neck in water at Gort and was bailed out time and again by the Civil Defence. Nothing I can say adequately expresses my appreciation of the level of voluntary support and humanitarian relief provided by Civil Defence volunteers on the ground.

Is the Minister of State subject to going under?

I almost did go under in a boat which struck a gate pier in Gort. I was not wearing a life jacket at the time.

We are lucky the Minister of State escaped.

I pay tribute to the members of the Civil Defence who do a tremendous job. A delegation from the FCA recently appeared before the committee, and I believe that these people play an increasing role at ground level. We have a standing Army, but what can it do in a nuclear war? However, as a nation, we must have an army.

We do not show enough appreciation of the effectiveness of the Civil Defence and the FCÁ in dealing with problems at local level. When there is a crisis, these people arrive quickly and know exactly what to do. I am glad they will receive additional equipment. I remind the Minister of State that I hope this will represent good news for a certain part of the country next year.

Its arrival might be too late.

Whatever happens, I will not live in hope. Is there an upper age limit on service with the Civil Defence? Many volunteers have been in service for a long time.

I thank the Deputy for his compliments about the Civil Defence. In 1995, the Carlow Civil Defence unit received a minibus and we will be sympathetic towards representations for 1997. With the available resources, the Department tries to supply as much equipment as possible on an equitable basis. By and large there has been a relatively even distribution of equipment.

The retirement age for members of the Civil Defence, which is generally adhered to, is 65 years of age. Within the Civil Defence movement there is often a tradition of passing on the spirit of community participation to succeeding generations. In a time of increasing hand-outs, it is refreshing that people are queuing up in each county to participate in Civil Defence. However, numbers of personnel must be kept within the scope of available resources.

Can the Minister of State explain the reduction in the Estimates in relation to exercises and competitions?

I express my appreciation to the personnel of the Civil Defence for the service they have given to the community. As a Deputy from Galway West, like the Minister, I had occasion to be fully aware of the vital role it plays, particularly in times of emergency. It requires a great deal of training and its members train during their free time and give their services voluntarily. The community greatly appreciates the valuable work it does and the service it gives.

It is also a vital part of the nuclear emergency plan. The Civil Defence was established to provide assistance in such an emergency and a great deal of training went into that area. Are there any exercises planned for 1996 in the national emergency plan which would involve Civil Defence personnel? Is there a system to award medals in recognition of those who have given long and loyal service to the Civil Defence? Is there any way in which the gallantry of those who have risked life and limb in rescue operations while wearing the uniform of the Civil Defence is recognised?

On the estimate for the provision of courses, one of the features this year is that we will reduce the number of courses provided at Civil Defence headquarters in the Phoenix Park. There will be more local action rather than centrally located action. Units will be responsible for themselves, in conjunction with their local authorities.

There will be further exercises this year. Last year, there were exercises in Blarney, Clonmel, Westport and Castlebar, and this year they will be held in October in Wicklow, Cork city and Sligo. In relation to whether they will cover nuclear fallout situations, the Radiological Protection Institute is charged with responsibility for that but Civil Defence personnel are also trained to deal with it. It will probably be one of the exercises considered for the competing teams in Wicklow, Cork city and Sligo.

And the service medals?

We have designed a very nice service medal which will be generally recognised as a very suitable commemorative award for people who have given long service to the Civil Defence. That is ready.

For what length of service?

The service requirement is ten years.

In the same way as the Scott medal is awarded to gardaí, is there any special award or medal to recognise special heroic sacrifices made by members of the Civil Defence in carrying our their voluntary duties?

We do not have that but it is something we might usefully look at.

That concludes the debate on subheads CC to EE. We can take the debates on subhead Z and Vote 37 on Army pensions together. Army pensions were referred to earlier in the debate.

What do receipts for barrack services entail? As was said here before, the banks get exceptionally good value in the cash escort service we provide. As far as I know, not as much as a penny has been stolen while the Army provided these escorts. Will the Minister consider supplying the same type of service for the leaving certificate papers?

I notice there has not been an increase in the receipts in respect of cash escort services. When this service was started there was no charge to the banks — it was provided gratis by the State. There was a great deal of criticism of that and a charge was introduced. The expected amount for 1996 is the same as the amount paid last year. Could the Minister give some details on how this amount is arrived at? Is it an arbitrary figure? If so, why is there not some increase in the 1996 receipts, in view of increased costs?

In regard to receipts on discharge by purchase, given that there is now a scheme for voluntary retirement from the Army, is it proposed to abolish this requirement for a soldier who cannot, or does not wish to, complete the period for which he signed on to buy his way out? If not, why not? It applies mostly in the Air Corps where officers are offered highly remunerative employment by Aer Lingus. It is an antiquated system.

The question of charging the banks for the escorts provided by the Army and Garda was considered initially by the Departments of Finance, Justice and Defence in 1980. The banks intimated they would not be prepared to agree to pay for a State security service. The Gleeson commission recommended the possibility of introducing charging arrangements for the provision of military service in aid of the civil power should be examined by the Departments of Defence and Finance.

The Minister for Finance in his budget speech of 1995, indicated he proposed to seek a contribution of £3 million from the banks towards the costs of the provision of cash escorts. This amount has been divided on the basis of the Defence Vote —£2.25 million — and the Justice Vote — 0.75 million. The contribution received from the associated banks in December 1994 was divided between the Departments of Defence and Justice. Basically, we are getting a sum of £3 million from the banks, giving £2.25 million to the Army and £0.75 million to the Garda.

My question really is whether it was £3 million last year and, if so, why there is not an increase. The banks are very quick to increase their charges.

There was an increase in 1995 from 1994.

I am talking about 1995 and 1996.

There was not an increase from 1995 to 1996. In 1994 the contribution received from the banks was £1.5 million to the Department of Defence and £0.5 million to the Department of Justice, a total of £2 million. That went up to £3 million in 1995, which was a 50 per cent increase. I have no objection to seeking a further increase in the contribution, but I understand the contribution we receive more or less covers our costs. Deputy Woods asked me about the amount due from the UN. We are due £13 million at the moment. There are ongoing discussions to try to recoup that.

What about discharge by purchase?

The position is that it will remain. Deputy Smith made the point that it is very expensive to train some categories of personnel — it can run into thousands of pounds. If someone is trained as a pilot in the Air Corps, for example, there is an agreement they pay a certain amount if they leave within a certain period. If officers, who have had the opportunity to attend university and obtain degrees, leave within a certain period their expertise will be lost to the Defence Forces and they will refund some of the costs. There are no proposals to change this and it does not enter into the voluntary early retirement scheme.

If the redundancy scheme produces an attractive package it encourages members of the Defence Forces to accept early retirement. At the same time there is the anomaly in the system where some members cannot retire; they must buy their way out of the Army, the Air Corps or the Navy. Does the Minister not see this? In some instances a cash incentive is being offered to get out whereas in other cases members cannot get out until they pay. Where is the dividing line?

It is voluntary on both sides. The voluntary scheme does not imply that we would be anxious that everybody who applies should leave. It is voluntary in respect of those who apply and those who accept applications. It is only reasonable that if large sums of money are invested in the training of people they should not leave immediately after training without giving something back. Some kind of penalty would be expected to purchase their discharge. This is reasonable. It does not appear to be causing much annoyance.

For somebody in the Defence Forces who qualifies under the terms of the redundancy package — under the sick category or because of the qualified number of years of service — is the discharge by purchase requirement being abolished? If a person qualifies for a cash incentive to leave, is he not allowed to avail of the redundancy package on the basis that he is needed and that if he wants to leave he will have to pay £5,000?

I doubt it that situation would arise, but if it did applicants would be treated in the same way as anybody else taking up the voluntary early retirement scheme. It would mean that we would be prepared to allow them go on a voluntary basis. We would not then be in a position to charge them to leave.

If they qualify under the terms of the scheme for priority, will they still be required to repay? Can the Minister see the anomaly?

We would not ask them to purchase their discharge if they were taking up a voluntary retirement scheme.

In the case of such people the requirement is being abolished.

It should be looked at in terms of set off, one from another.

I understand what the Deputy is saying.

It is an anomaly. I wonder what the explanation will be.

The Deputy is asking if somebody who in the normal course of events would have to pay for a discharge takes up the early retirement would have the cost of the discharge deducted from the retirement lump sum.

Will the Minister lift the discharge by purchase requirement?

We would.

It would not make sense otherwise.

It is highly unlikely that such a group of people would seek——

Nothing is unlikely in the Army.

How many members bought themselves out in 1995?

Probably three or four. Very few are seeking to buy themselves out.

Should they apply for the voluntary scheme when they are eligible, given that leaving in 1996 is considerably more attractive than in 1995?

I am sure that some anticipated the voluntary early retirement scheme and stayed on. I do not blame anybody for that; I would do the same myself and most of us who are honest would do the same. One will not forgo an opportunity to start up a small business or a new career.

I wish to highlight an anomaly. In some cases people are being paid to go, while in other cases they are being charged to go. How does the Minister propose to resolve it?

There is a reason for this. The taxpayer pays considerable sums of money in some cases——

In all cases.

——to train people in special skills. Where we do not get proper use of these skills, a penalty is imposed on the person who wants to leave prior to the period — 12 years — we consider is necessary.

Otherwise training would be provided for the airlines.

Correct. I do not believe it is causing a problem. The voluntary early retirement scheme is different. It is where we agree with the request from a person who wishes to take up a special offer. In those cases, it is unlikely that the people we would be anxious to retain would be offered the voluntary terms in the first place.

Is there no likelihood of a special deduction in lieu of special training they may have received?

Not if they are being accepted under the voluntary early retirement scheme.

The Minister is saying that there is no likelihood that people in that category would be offered redundancy, which is different from what he said earlier. Did I misunderstand him?

It would be voluntary on both sides. There are some people whom we would not wish to go. For example, we do not want to see people who have trained as pilots and have only served five years taking up the voluntary early retirement scheme.

With regard to Vote 37, dealing with military service, pensioners and special allowance holders, as we move further away from the dramatic and important events of the War of Independence and the number of recipients of these special allowances and other payments sadly declines, can the Minister indicate the numbers of such people still in receipt of payment from his Department?

Some 196 people will be in receipt of special allowances in 1996. Means tested allowances are payable to veterans of the War of Independence who are in needy circumstances.

Are any 1916 pensions still being paid?

I am going to bring matters to a conclusion. We have given detailed consideration to the Department of Defence Estimate this afternoon. We have had a comprehensive discourse on everything, from the design date of the women's FCA uniforms to the allowance of the Church of Ireland clergyman and the golf course at Oranmore. I am sure that no departmental Estimate has been given the thorough consideration given to this Estimate, especially from Deputy Molloy, who apologised on behalf of Deputy Clohessy. Was it an intentional substitute?

No. Unfortunately my colleague is sick.

I am sorry to hear that. I thank everybody for their contributions. I thank the Minister and Minister of State for attending and all officials who have been with us this afternoon.

I would like to be associated with those comments. I thank the Minister and the officials for their very helpful replies which are greatly appreciated.

I would like to be associated with that also, accept for one brief moment when there were some fireworks.

I apologise for that. I think it was a misunderstanding.

You cannot have an Army without fireworks.

The Select Committee adjourned at 5.40 p.m.

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