At least that part is clear. As regards the suggestion that anything is premature, this is the Oireachtas and we are passing laws. Whatever about being premature before we discussed the Bill, today we are being asked to agree to a change in the law which has direct and immediate implications. It cannot be premature to address it now.
I began by presuming that the intention was to preserve the original position of the employees as civil servants. We are aware of the importance of preserving their position. I doubt if the Attorney General will be around when somebody becomes redundant without social insurance fund cover such as unemployment benefit. The Attorney General speaks only on matters of law, and what can or cannot be done. The Minister of State suggested we should not emphasise redundancy which, he said, does not arise at this stage, but it will be part of the transfer deal at some stage. No one has said that some such package will not be required. Various proposals have been made, some of them extreme, but some sort of package will be needed. When a person becomes redundant — voluntarily or not — and they are covered by full rate PRSI, the situation is different from someone who becomes redundant in the Civil Service.
Civil servants who have to leave the Civil Service on health grounds may be in dire circumstances and many Deputies will have come across such cases. Whereas this is not likely to occur now or in the immediate future, we have to make provision for it. Workers have to face up to this and the provisions we are debating are very important to them in that regard.
Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta has been privatised, but if I recall correctly, the staff had been paying the full rate PRSI contributions prior to that and, consequently, the transfer was not difficult in that respect. They had already adjusted to the competitive environment and they would have negotiated a privatisation package. PRSI contributions would not have been an issue in any event. Will the Minister confirm that my recollection is correct?
The employees of approximately half the number of semi-State bodies pay full PRSI contributions so there is a precedent in that respect. The Minister said there is no incentive, however, £26 million each year for ten years amounts to £260 million and if that is not an incentive of some sort I do not know what an incentive is. I accept that from the Minister's point of view there might not be an intent to provide an incentive but the Minister is dealing with another Department. In reply to Deputy Seamus Brennan's Question No. 21 of 5 March 1996, Dáil Official Report, column 1174, volume 462, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Lowry said:
I secured the agreement of the Minister for Social Welfare and the Government for a change in legislation to continue the existing arrangements in the event of an equity-based strategic alliance being concluded. The legislative provision is contained in the Social Welfare Bill published on 1 March.
The Social Welfare Bill, 1996, gives power to the Minister for Social Welfare to maintain the current modified social insurance status of Telecom Éireann and its employees. The purpose of this provision is simply to confirm the continuation of existing arrangements in the event of the company entering a strategic alliance ... The question of changing the current PRSI status of other companies operating in the telecommunications sector does not arise.
Obviously, as Deputy Joe Walsh suggests, we will have an anomalous situation in a strategic alliance, in that the strategic alliance will not be paying the full rate of PRSI for the vast majority of employees. I accept that the Minister for Social Welfare would have no incentive intent, nevertheless the reality is that £26 million a year is an incentive and would be part of the package. It is not surprising that the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications would seek such a deal because it would enhance the company's position in a strategic alliance.
The Minister says he is optimistic about Telecom Éireann. We would all be optimistic about Telecom Éireann because telecommunications is a growth area. The staff and management of Telecom Éireann have a high level of expertise and in relatively recent times the company has invested heavily in technology. Most people would say that the sooner Telecom Éireann enters the strategic alliance the better from the point of view of availing of opportunities in the market.
Were the employees in Telecom Éireann consulted about this provision prior to it coming before the House?