I welcome the formal recognition of homemakers and the change in a child's age from six to 12. If persons are out of the workforce for 18 or 19 years, how are they affected by this section? Will they have to return to the labour force and pay contributions?
SECTION 24.
Question proposes: "That section 24 stand part of the Bill."
They do not have to return to the labour force in order to benefit.
A person can be a homemaker for a maximum of 20 years. People who have been homemakers for a number of years would like to go back to work or get involved in second chance education. However, they cannot because of the requirement to be on the live register. Will this section help them in this regard?
As far as I know, it will not. The application date, which was introduced in 1994 by the previous Administration, commenced at that time. The right to benefit under it, therefore, will accumulate from that point. We have extended the age up to which a person can claim to care for a child from six to 12. My understanding is that if a person does not have a record in the labour force, he or she will not qualify.
Is anything being done for homemakers who are anxious to work or to become involved in education, but who were advised that because they are homemakers and need to be on the live register, they cannot participate? Could a special register be set up in the Department to deal with this situation?
The criteria for entry into community employment schemes is set by the Department of Enterprise and Employment, based on records in the labour force, and not by the Department of Social Welfare. The Deputy should, therefore, raise her point with its officials. As regards the question about those who do not have a record in the labour force and, therefore, do not qualify under this scheme, if people are in a position to enter the labour force at 40 or 50, they do not need this scheme.
The scheme is intended to fill the gap between the point at which they may have been in the labour force as a young person before they married, or shortly after they married, and re-entering the labour force at a later stage, so that the average of the number of years is made up for by the credits which will apply under the homemaker's scheme.
It attempts to rectify a situation where a person may have worked for ten years before leaving the labour force to care for children and may have entered the labour force again a few years before old age pension age. The average contributions would be spread from the point at which they entered the insurance system, perhaps 40 years previously. The average would, therefore, be stretched across this gap of, perhaps, 30 years and would be very low. If they do not originally have a record in the labour force and start later in life to go into the labour market, having reared children, the average is the period in which they worked, whether it be five or ten years. The homemaker's scheme attempts to bridge this gap, which older women especially would have had.
Will the section assist homemakers with regard to the PRSI exemption which applies to those wishing to return to work, whereby they do not have to pay PRSI for a period?
Is the Deputy referring to the PRSI exemption in respect of a person on long-term unemployment getting work and being exempt from paying PRSI for a period of weeks?
Yes.
It would not.
It does not help them?
Help them in what way? They can choose to pay the PRSI, they do not have to accept a position which requires a PRSI exemption. It is a voluntary matter as to whether people take up work and as to whether their purpose in going back to work is to accumulate additional PRSI contributions.
An employer taking on somebody who is long term-unemployed gets the benefits of the PRSI exemption scheme. Would this apply to a homemaker anxious to take up work on the same basis?
To qualify for the PRSI exemption they would have had to have been on the live register. If they were working in the home they would not necessarily have the right to be on the live register. I can get more information on this.
Perhaps the Minister will clarify the matter on Report Stage. Will this help homemakers to get the back-to-work allowance?
The purpose of the homemaker's scheme is to assist people, primarily women because they tend to be the carers in our society in terms of the home, maintain a record of credits for the period in which they are caring for children in the home up to the age of 12 years. It has been devised to avoid the gap that has emerged in the past for those who may have been in the labour force for a period of years, left the labour force to be homemakers and found, when they returned to the labour force later in life, that they had an absence of contributions of credits for many years. This meant that on reaching pension age they found that the averaging provision to qualify for a contributory pension was stretched over the period from the beginning to the end of their working life. This provision begins to fill in this gap from 1984 so that the effect of the averaging will not have an adverse effect on their entitlement to, primarily, contributory old age pension. It is not intended to assist people back into the labour force; it is an attempt to assist people who have had large absences from the labour force as homemakers.
Section 24 (1) (b) states "... in which the claimant does not have any credited contributions or voluntary contributions, such contribution year shall be disregarded ...". Does this put the homemaker on equal terms with the person who is long-term unemployed and who wants to return to the workforce? I represent homemakers who have reared their children and wish to return to the workplace. Does this help them in this?
No. The scheme was first introduced in 1994, commencing at that date. Those who were homemakers at that point begin to accumulate credits until such time as they reach old age pension age or re-enter the labour force. The provision to which the Deputy refers seeks to eliminate the anomaly that, on entering the scheme, one had to be a homemaker for a full year before qualifying and to be one for a full year at the end of the period of qualification. When a person starts, any part of the year, at the beginning or the end, will be counted as a full year.
Does the section establish a special register for homemakers or how will they be identified?
A number of years after they first appear, people will begin to be identified through payments to the payment record with regard to child benefit. We will also advertise at the appropriate time for people to apply for it.
To apply to enter the special register for homemakers?
No. If a person is reaching retirement or old age pension age, at a specific point the scheme will start to click in. It started in 1994. We will advertise at a specific point to attract people to let us know if they are applying for retirement, old age pension or re-entering the labour force so that their records can be updated to include the period of time they spent in the home rearing children since 1994.
When will this commence?
The plan is to build up the register on an ongoing basis through identifying those who are caring in the home, in receipt of carer's allowance and child benefit. We will also advertise in circumstances where people may no longer be in receipt of child benefit or carer's allowance, we can identify them through advertising and invite them to make themselves known to us.
Does the Department have any immediate plans to set up a register?
It does. It has continuing plans to bring this scheme into effect.
Will this be described as the homemakers register?
It will not be a register in the sense of book or computer file. It will involve updating the individual's contribution record.
Will people's records be updated only if they are in receipt of child benefit or carer's allowance?
We will seek to identify records in our own files in whatever way this is feasible. Carer's allowance and child benefit records are obvious ones to identify but we will also, through advertising, inform people of the circumstances in which they will qualify for these credits under the homemaker's scheme and I hope people will apply for them.
Who might benefit other than those in receipt of child benefit and carer's allowance?
People caring for relatives in the home who, because of their means, do not qualify for carer's allowance.
What will happen if in 2010 people say they cared for their mothers for the previous 15 years but did not apply for the carer's allowance because they knew they would not pass the means test but want these 15 years included in the homemaker's register?
We will have to look at this. The Bill provides the legal framework for giving credits to people who are home-making. Regulations and conditions will have to be put in place to define how a person qualifies. We will bear in mind the Deputy's point about the possibility of late applicants.
We and the Department are not sure to whom this section will apply.
Of course the Department knows to whom it will apply. That I may not be sure does not the mean that the Department, which is all knowing and all seeing, is not sure.
The section is vague. Could we have clarification of it on Report Stage?
The categories of people who will qualify were set down in legislation in 1994 and included people rearing children up to the age of six years but we are now extending this age to 12 years. In addition the section will apply to those caring for elderly or incapacitated persons on a full-time basis. We will introduce regulations to define how these categories will be included in our records.
Is there a timescale with regard to when the regulations will be defined?
As soon as the Bill is passed, the Department will be free to work on this.
If a woman cares for her elderly mother, does not qualify for the carer's allowance and wonders whether in 2010 she will qualify as a homemaker, she needs to know if she should write to the Department now.
We are talking about people who had records in the labour force but have left it in order to take up jobs as homemakers to rear children or care for elderly persons. The provision intends to fill the gap which is created. Because such persons work in the home as carers, they are not entitled to credits or to make PRSI contributions. If they re-enter the labour force at a later stage, there is a gap between the points at which they left and re-entered it. This has the effect of reducing their average contributions over their periods in the labour force. This provision is intended to fill that gap. It is not as if the Department does not have any record of them in the first instance; it does. We are seeking to extend the application of this provision, which is positive, and to make regulations which will seek to ensure that those entitled to credits under the scheme will obtain them.
The Department may not have a record of these people in the first place if they did not apply for the carer's allowance because they knew they did not qualify on the basis of the means test.
We would have records on them as former contributors to the insurance fund.
A woman aged 50 may give up work this year to care for her elderly mother. She may wish to apply for an old age pension in 15 years' time and may wish to be regarded as a homemaker for the period between now and then. If she does not apply for a carer's allowance because she would not qualify under the means test, how will the Department know she has been a homemaker for this 15 year period if it does not keep a register?
We intend to advertise to identify such people and we are making regulations to define how people will qualify and apply to be registered as carers. The precise modalities of how this will apply have yet to be agreed. It has not been necessary to do this until now because the scheme was only introduced in 1994. It is a slow burning scheme and people will not qualify for some years.
Irrespective of whether the Department establishes a register or introduces regulations to identify people, can we be assured that women will be identified as homemakers whether or not they qualify for the carer's allowance?
It is clearly not feasible or practical to say that every person who arrives at the door of the Department in ten years' time to claim they have been caring for elderly or incapacitated persons between now and then will automatically be given ten years credits. I already explained that regulations will be put in place to define how a person may qualify and that the Department will begin work on this as soon as the Bill becomes law.
I am worried that in order to establish the fact that they are carers, people will apply for the carer's allowance but be refused it on the basis of the means test.
Section 24 (1) (c) (ii) states: "resides with and provides full-time care and attention to a person who is so incapacitated as to require full-time care and attention within the meaning of section 163 (3)". A person may turn up in the Department in 15 years time claiming to have resided with the mother for the past 15 years and provided her with full-time care and attention, that he did not apply for the carer's allowance because it was exclusively based on the means test but is now applying as a homemaker. I understand how the Department will assess those who had children during that time and those who qualified for the means tested carer's allowance. How will the Department be able to tell a person he did not care for his mother for the past 15 years if he was not registered and identified as a homemaker in 1996?
We will make regulations to set the criteria by which somebody will show he cared for a person and was in receipt of a carer's allowance. I indicated that when searching through its records, the Department will seek to identify as many as possible whose records will be automatically updated based on the facts in the Department. It will not be necessary for everybody to apply. The Deputy is pressing me for details on the criteria which will apply to those who are not recorded as carers, but I do not know as those regulations have not yet been made.
Sitting suspended at 4 p.m. and resumed at 4.20 p.m.
Section 24 (1) (a) (c) (ii) refers to a person who "resides with and provides full-time care and attention to a person who is so incapacitated as to require full-time care and attention within the meaning of section 163 (3),". I checked that provision and it just means the incapacitated person requires continual supervision, etc. While I know regulations must be introduced, can we at least say at this stage that it is not necessary for a person to qualify for the carer's allowance to qualify under this particular section?
No. It is not necessary to qualify because a person might not qualify on grounds of means but they would have to show they were otherwise caring for a person on a full-time basis. If they were not claiming it on the basis of caring for a child up to the age of 12 but were caring for an incapacitated person, they would have to show in some way — the regulations will detail the way in which it must be done — that they were caring for a person on a full-time basis and living with them.
The second element of the provision states there is no time limit on when they can show this.
There is no time limit at the moment because the regulations are not there, but we will have to apply some limit. If someone said in 50 years time he had cared for a person during 1995-97, it would be impossible to verify it. It would also be impossible to get medical evidence to prove it. Some limit must be included, but we will do our utmost to identify people and ensure that those who opt out of the labour force to become homemakers in the terms provided for here will know of the necessity to make that fact known to the Department.
Will the regulations compel people to identify themselves at the time as homemakers?
It would be wise to do this.
In such circumstances, would they be described as homemakers by the Department of Social Welfare?
No. I may have slightly misled the Deputy when I referred to credits. The way in which this will operate is that the number of years in which they are out of the labour force as homemakers will be discounted in averaging the number of contributions they require for a contributory old age pension. This is called a homemaker scheme but the person concerned will not necessarily be defined in law as a homemaker.
If the regulations oblige this person to identify himself to the Department at the time as a homemaker, will it not have to record this event somewhere?
The Department will note it on its insurance record, which it keeps for every employed person. Any credits, contributions etc. made on his behalf are recorded. Their contribution record will note there are years to be discounted because they qualified as homemakers for that time.
If this system was introduced from 1996 onwards and I asked the Minister by way of a Dáil question this time next year how many people were recorded in the Department as being homemakers under this section, would he be able to say?
I should be able to do this. I hope we will be able to identify those who qualify for it at that point under that criteria.
This information will be in an individual record but will it also be in an overall register?
It will be on the central records of the Department and therefore, can be retrieved in the same way as information on a person claiming disability benefit or any other benefit. The Department's computer systems are sophisticated at this stage. Since it is a new scheme, we will build a retrieval method into the central records system so we can identify the people involved.
Will the Minister be able to tell me how many people are recorded as homemakers in the same way as those who claim for unemployment benefit and assistance or disability benefit?
I should be able to tell the Deputy how many people are recorded. It may not necessarily be accurate in the sense that not everybody who may be entitled to it will have been identified, either because they have not responded to advertisements or because we do not have a prior record of them.
If we were able to determine how many people are recorded as homemakers, could we then examine the possibility of their qualifying for back to work allowance or such other schemes administered by the Department because it would then have a formal record of them?
The back to work allowance applies to people on the long-term unemployment register. One cannot be a long-term unemployed person on the live register while being a full-time carer.
When these people finish their period of caring and want to return to the workplace, can they go back on the unemployment register?
Any carer, presuming he or she is available or fit for work etc., is entitled to claim unemployment assistance on the live register.
Is there a time limit?
There is no time limit at the moment. Unless there are other criteria of which I am not aware, any unemployed person who can show he is available, fit for, and actively seeking, work and between 16 and 66 years of age can go on the live register.
There is currently a problem for homemakers in that they cannot qualify for these schemes because they are not on the live register.
It depends on one's definition of homemaker. We could include every single person in the home as a homemaker. However, in this Bill we are referring to a specific category of person who has spent a period of time either rearing a child or children up to 12 years of age or giving full time care and attention to a person in whose house they are living. If these people are no longer caring for the child, as defined in this provision, or for the person who needs long-term care and attention, they are free to work. If they are also fit to, and can show they are actively seeking, work, there is no reason they cannot register as unemployed. If they do not qualify, they can then be means tested in the normal way for unemployed assistance.
If they are means tested in the normal way and fail to pass for entry onto the live register, is there any mechanism where they can join it at that point?
They must have made one contribution to go on to the register at that point. To sign for credits, a person will require at least a single contribution from either the current or previous years.
Does the Department not recognise that a homemaker cannot get this contribution if he is on homemaking duties, as per section 24? Therefore, how can he return to the live register?
The Deputy is trying to drag in a different problem. We are moving away from the fact that this provision is aimed specifically at assisting people, primarily women, who take time out of the labour force to care for children or for a person who needs full-time care and attention. Years spent in that way can be disregarded in the calculation of a pension.
The Deputy is attempting to discuss a different problem which is the right of people to qualify for credits where they are available and fit for work but do not qualify for assistance on a means tested basis or for credits because they do not have the required contribution in the current or previous year. That is a separate problem which does not impinge on the issue of trying to ensure that a person who gives long years to caring for children or a relative will not have those years held against them in averaging their contributions to qualify for a pension.
The homemaker is the person who is most likely to apply for the second chance education initiatives run by the Department of Social Welfare.
We are dealing with a separate and different issue. We ar trying to guarantee that a person who takes time out to care for children will have a better chance of qualifying for a contributory pension. If they had a record of contributions before they became carers and have further contributions later in life, the gap resulting from their absence from the labour market for five, ten, 20 or 30 years will not result in their average contribution requirement being so low that they will not qualify for a contributory old age pension. The purpose of this section is to exempt up to 20 years of that gap so a person will have a better chance of qualifying for a contributory old age pension. It has nothing to do with their right to qualify for employment or any other kind of scheme.
The section does two things. It formally recognises the title of homemaker and formally recognises absence from the labour force or workplace during the person's home-making years. However, in recognising them formally as homemakers it is only recognising them for pension purposes as distinct from other areas within the social welfare code.
Yes.
I thank the Minister for elaborating on some matters relevant to the section. It is a new section and the regulations are only being drafted but it is important to tease out its philosophy. I warmly welcome it.
Over the last quarter of a century we made some efforts to deal with the position of women in society. We have come from a disgraceful situation where we treated women very badly, and as chattels or appendages, to one where we are tentatively and slowly giving recognition to the place of women in society. Many of the people about whom we are talking were described under the old social welfare literature as relatives assisting. A member of the Cabinet, Deputy Higgins, wrote a poem about the plight of those women. He was correct in saying that the plight of people who look after children, invalids and people in the home was never recognised and I am pleased it is being recognised now.
Not so long ago people had to resign from their jobs on marriage and did not have any property rights. Women got married and, if they had a substantial dowry, they were more or less sold off to a fairly substantial person. If they did not have a substantial dowry, they were left on the shelf. We have made some progress since the infamous effort to give £9.60 a week and some recognition to women in the home.
I am pleased we have reached this stage. This is a futuristic provision which will be of substantial benefit to people who have to give up employment to look after the situation in the home. I understand it will be deemed to have come into effect on 6 April 1995. Unfortunately, that will exclude some people prior to that date. I suggest that a most generous attitude should be taken in drawing up the regulations because we need to put things right and ensure that the place of women in society is properly and fully recognised. This is a small but important step in that direction.
The provision mentions the care of children between the ages of six and 12. I speak with some authority as a person who has personal experience of dealing with children in that age group and over it. They are not so bad up to 12 years of age but need a fair amount of caring between the ages of 12 and 18 or 19. They need constant attention so the Minister might look at the possibility of increasing the age limit from 12 to take account of those difficult years where children need attention. I express the gratitude of this side of the House for elaborating on and elucidating the section and whole-heartedly welcome it.
The section starts with any complete year commencing on or after 6 April 1994. One must have an insurable period before one becomes a homemaker. I presume that if somebody was insured from 1974 to 1984 and was an unrecognised homemaker between 1984 and 1994, they can become a recognised homemaker now despite the fact that they are not just becoming a homemaker at this point?
Yes.
It is only the years from April 1994 onwards which will be counted as distinct from the ten years previous to that person was a homemaker? Despite the fact they would be able to show child benefit within the Department of Social Welfare, it will not be recognised if it was prior to 1 April 1994?
No. That was the basis on which the scheme was introduced by the previous administration. On this occasion we are bringing the regulations into the main legislation and extending the age of the children being cared for up to 12 years. It was six years in the original 1994 regulations. That is an improvement in the scheme.
Question put and agreed to.
Amendment No. 24 not moved.
Section 25 agreed to.