Amendment No. 63 is an alternative to amendment 62 and both may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.
SECTION 70.
I move amendment No. 62:
In page 63, subsection (5), line 24, to delete "50" and substitute "10".
Section 70 provides for an equality review which is an audit of equality of opportunity and an examination of the practices, procedures and other relevant factors of, in and material to employment and the preparation of an equality action plan by or of a particular business, group of businesses, industry or sector on the initiation of the proposed equality authority. The powers do not cover businesses with fewer than 50 employees. Given that a large proportion of Irish companies employ fewer than 50 people, especially in the services sector where women are predominantly employed, the exclusion of firms of this size from the equality review and action plan preparation is not desirable. The number should be reduced.
In the examination of any company, there is a critical mass below which it is unreasonable to go. If satisfaction within a company is being examined, for example, it is expected that critical mass would not be fewer than five. I suggested ten for this provision as it is a reasonable figure. If the size of Irish companies and the number of small to medium sized companies is borne in mind, a huge number would have under 50 employees.
Looking at this, I felt 20 was a reasonable figure. I ask the Minister to re-examine this matter and reduce the figure of 50. The equality reviews would apply to businesses with a staff of fewer than 50. I suggested 20 and Deputy Keogh suggested ten. Perhaps the Minister would re-examine the issue.
I will examine it but I would be reluctant to reduce the figure of 50. This provision is a completely new Government initiative in the field of equality. We must have a focus. I am satisfied that a focus on firms of this size or bigger will ensure that more than half the Irish workforce will benefit from this new concept and provision. The section does not rule out involvement of smaller firms in equality reviews and action plans on a voluntary basis. I am confident that effective application of this provision will have spin-off benefits for smaller employers as it will highlight employment equality deficiencies and best practice across many Irish firms. It could present difficulties for small firms of the numbers submitted by the Deputies but I will think about it. I am reluctant at the moment to interfere with that figure.
I had a figure smaller than the 50 in my mind but I may have been confusing that with the disability area.
What is the cut-off point for small and medium-sized firms?
From what point of view?
At what stage does a company consider itself medium as opposed to small?
Different people have differing views on that. There is no legal definition as far as I know. We must be reasonable about this for the moment. We have thought about it carefully and feel that to reduce the figure of 50 would create difficulties because a firm must be in a position to cope and grapple with the audit procedure. It is a completely new procedure and I suggest it be operated at the cut-off point of 50 to see how it works. It can always be varied at a later stage if necessary. A lot of work is involved in auditing even an appreciable number of firms with 50 employees or more which is where the need is rather than in small firms.
IBEC's point was that this provision should apply to people who employed more than 20 employees. This is interesting because the figure I put down and which we discussed earlier was 30 and they were prepared to come down to 20. The Minister might note that when he is examining the situation.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 63 not moved.
Section 70 agreed to.
Section 71 agreed to.