Amendments Nos. 24 and 27 are composite and amendments Nos. 25, 26 and 28 are related and may be discussed together.
SECTION 8.
I move amendment No. 24:
In page 8, line 43, after "An tÚdarás," to insert "and the passage of an Act by both Houses of the Oireachtas,".
Section 8 deals with the incorporation of educational institutions within existing universities. The section as defined in the Bill states:
if the Minister considers that an educational institution or part of an educational institution should form part of a university, the Minister may, by order made with the consent of the Minister for Finance, the institution concerned and the governing authority of the university, and after consultation with An tÚdarás, provide that the institution or part shall become and form part of the university, and on the making of the order it shall be so incorporated.
The amendment tabled by Deputy Coughlan and me inserts "and the passage of an Act by both Houses of the Oireachtas". It has been the position up to now that the establishment of a university requires the consent of the Oireachtas, the democratically elected representatives of the people. The amendment seeks to retain that position. This would facilitate debate within the Oireachtas on ongoing developments in higher education. With the, at times, acrimonious debate in the last week, one can understand why this is necessary. We cannot predict what institutions may be incorporated into universities in the future. We should always have the Oireachtas as the final arbiter in such matters and as an important forum for debate and discussion on these issues. I do not think the amendment should generate much opposition.
I agree that, especially after the recent controversies as regards third level education, we are demeaning the role of the Oireachtas as far as the creation of universities is concerned. It is a most important part of the formation of the State. As a consequence, the Oireachtas should be included in the decision-making and should be given an opportunity as the elected representatives of the people to express an opinion.
Amendment No. 25 inserts "and officers of the existing universities" after "educational experts". Those in the university sector also have a contribution to make. I do not say they must have a veto as regards competition or the introduction of a new university, but they should be included in any discussions to create a new university. Consultation is an important element in any legislation and I would have grave concerns regarding the creation of new universities without full consultation. We must look at many factors appertaining to the formation of universities. We do not want to find ourselves in a situation similar to that in Britain and Northern Ireland where universities have been set up whose degrees are not particularly well recognised. If someone asked me to name the best universities in the UK, I would have to say that some the best in the 1950s and 1960s have, unfortunately, now lost their mark. There is an element of snobbery and I do not want that to happen here. That is why the Oireachtas should be included along with the officers of existing universities to ensure we keep the high educational standards we now cherish.
The Minister should consider the amendments we have tabled. If she cannot accept them in their present form she should let us know if she can table an amendment of her own on Report Stage.
I support these thought-provoking amendments which signal the importance of the role of the Oireachtas in the field of education. It is a mark of the esteem in which an institution such as a university should be held. With regard to consideration by Members of the Oireachtas, it would be valuable to ensure continuity of what is already established and also to ensure the linkage and support of the Oireachtas for the university sector.
Under section 8 the Minister for Education may, by order, provide that an educational institution becomes part of a university. Any order would be made by the Minister for Education with the consent of the Minister for Finance. The section contains significant safeguards for the institutions concerned with the sector. An order can be made only with the consent of the institution and the governing authority of the university concerned, and only following consultation with the Higher Education Authority. In this way, the high standards of the university sector will be preserved and the rights of the institutions to manage their own affairs protected.
I take seriously Deputy Coughlan's contributions regarding safeguarding the quality of education in our institutions. Amendment No. 24 tabled by Deputies Martin and Coughlan is essentially that, instead of an order, a full Act would be necessary for the incorporation of an educational institution in a university. I consider the involvement of the Houses of the Oireachtas would be a positive addition to the section, and I will consider the issue with a view to proposing an amendment on Report Stage that would make it necessary for a positive resolution to be passed by both Houses before such an incorporation takes place. I do not think it is necessary for an Act to be passed. That would place unnecessary rigidities on the procedure.
We are involved in something that did not come through the Houses at full speed because in 1908 there were no Houses of the Oireachtas. However, a positive order would bring it into the chambers where it has to be discussed. To provide in legislation that the Houses of the Oireachtas should be bound by procedures in coming forward with future legislation would amount to fettering the rights of the Oireachtas to legislate as its members see fit. While I am ad idem with Members about their concerns, the mechanism I am proposing will meet them.
Section 9 provides that new universities can be establishment by order of the Government only after consideration of the advice of a body of experts and the advice of the HEA. A further guarantee of quality and accountability is that the order establishing a university must be made by the Government and must be ratified by both Houses of the Oireachtas so public representatives, representing the common good, will be very much involved in this.
In amendment No. 25, Deputies Martin and Coughlan have also proposed that officers of the existing universities should be consulted. I consider that the proposals to involve in the vetting procedures national experts, some of whom will be officers of existing universities, has merit. I will consider bringing forward an amendment along these lines on Report Stage.
Deputies Martin and Coughlan's further proposal in amendments Nos. 26, 27 and 28 is essential. They provide that instead of an order approved by both Houses, a full Act will be necessary for the establishment of a new university. For the reasons I have outlined, I am satisfied that it is not appropriate for an Act to be passed but that, by taking on board my amendments, other public safeguards would be in place.
The Select Committee adjourned at 4.05 p.m.