I remind Members that amendments Nos. 24 to 28, inclusive, are being taken together.
SECTION 8.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 24:
In page 8, line 43, after "An tÚdarás," to insert "and the passage of an Act by both Houses of the Oireachtas,".
—(Deputy Martin).
This amendment relates to the establishment of additional universities or the incorporation of educational institutions within existing universities. We argued that the Oireachtas should be consulted prior to a college being incorporated in an existing university or any new university being established. In relation to section 8(1), my amendment No. 25 proposes that one should not only take the advice of educational experts but also that of officers from the existing universities.
To date the process of establishing universities or upgrading institutions to university status has involved introducing legislation via the Oireachtas and we should include a provision in this regard in the Bill. It should not be solely within the remit of the Minister of the day but should involve a Dáil debate. The Minister suggested that she was open to the idea of consultation with the Oireachtas. Perhaps she would expand on that.
It might be helpful following the discussion we had last week to give fuller information. I accept the Oireachtas has the right to legislate on all matters of public importance. The setting up of a university is a matter of considerable public importance. Given that the Oireachtas will, through this Bill, have enacted a wide range of provisions relating to the operation of the university, I do not think it necessary that a proposal to establish any particular university should have to pass the various stages in the Oireachtas required for legislation.
However, the proper supervisory role of the Houses of the Oireachtas will be provided for through the mechanism of positive resolution. The parliamentary process could also be complicated by the fact that a Bill relating specifically to one institution may fall into the category of a private Bill.
It is unnecessary to provide in one Act that something may be done in another Act. If a university could be established only by an Act the provisions of sections 8 and 9 would be unnecessary and should be deleted from the Bill. When the issue of establishing a university arises it would be addressed in the Act. I wish to retain sections 8 and 9 because of the safeguards they provide for the university sector. I wish to ensure that all future Administrations will be bound by a requirement that, when they propose to incorporate an institution into a university or establish an institution as a university, this can only be done by the procedure in the Bill. This ensures that such a decision would be made on sound objective educational grounds. That guarantee would not exist if the Bill was silent on the matter.
The inclusion of a provision requiring legislation would prove unworkable. Future parliaments cannot have the exercise of their legislative powers restricted by provisions in an earlier Act. With section 9 as published and my declared intention to provide a similar provision in section 8, the Houses of the Oireachtas will be given a pivotal role in this process while ensuring the best guarantee for the quality of the university sector. There will be an important role for the Oireachtas because sections in this Bill will provide for the process of a positive resolution from the Houses of the Oireachtas.
Will sections 8 and 9 allow for the establishment of a university without necessarily having legislative approval from Dáil Éireann?
A positive resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas would be required. This takes on board the spirit of the Deputy's amendments and includes in the Bill a mechanism by which that would happen rather than a requirement for new legislation.
Section 12 facilitates the upgrading of institutions to university status. With regard to the Dublin Institute of Technology, the argument was advanced that it may evolve into a university through a mechanism in this legislation. The political whim of the moment could be seized by any future Minister and six months before a general election or a by-election that Minister might like to establish a university in a marginal or vulnerable constituency. We have seen in the past what happens in the run up to by-elections. The process of the Legislature has often been a useful check on such arrangements. If one knows there is a legislative hurdle in the establishment of an institution that may provide a check for any Minister who wishes to do so overnight. This is not a fanciful scenario.
It would be open to any Government to pass an Act overnight. The provisions proposed in the Bill require a review to be carried out. There would have to be a motion to positively approve the proposal following the review. There would have to be a discussion. Nobody wants to plan for education on the whim of the moment. We share the Deputy's concerns about political pressures or short-sightedness, although they may only inspire people quite different to the Deputy and me. My proposal involves a process of a positive order which may be slower than using the mechanism of an Act. However, the outcome is that there is a pivotal role for the Oireachtas. It is a slower process which will involve both Houses of the Oireachtas and require a review to be carried out. The outcome may be the same after such discussion.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 8 agreed to.