Select Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands debate -
Wednesday, 24 Jan 2024

Social Welfare and Civil Law (Liable Relatives and Child Maintenance) Bill 2023: Committee Stage

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputies Ó Cathasaigh and Phelan. Members participating remotely may do so only from within the Leinster House complex. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or in silent mode.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The purpose of this meeting is to consider the Social Welfare (Liable Relatives and Child Maintenance) Bill 2023. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and her officials here this morning.

I will bring some matters to the attention of members. Any member acting in substitution for a member of the committee should formally notify the clerk to the committee if she or he has not already done so. Divisions will take place as they arise. Members must attend in person in the committee meeting room for divisions although they may attend the meeting generally remotely from within the Leinster House precincts. Members attending this meeting in accordance with Standing Order 106(3) should be aware that, pursuant to that Standing Order, they may move amendments but cannot participate in voting on those amendments.

I invite the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, to make her opening statement. I had indicated to the Minister's office on Monday that at the outset of this meeting I would seek clarification from her on the Supreme Court judgment on the case of the widower, Johnny O'Meara, which has relevance to the Bill before us today. In a nutshell, the Supreme Court effectively stated that the State can promote family based on marriage without the need to discriminate against non-marital families.

This judgment gives rise to a number of significant questions. The most urgent one is, what now is the position of those in similar circumstances who applied previously to the Department for the widow's pension and were refused or those who did not apply due to the legislation that was in place? It is imperative that they are not excluded and that the maximum six-month arrears cap that is currently in place would not apply in these circumstances, as the legislative provisions that were in place have now been found to be unconstitutional. While this judgment only relates to the surviving parent of children, what is the position regarding the surviving cohabitant partner with no children? Does family, in terms of widows, now include situations where there is a fostering situation or an informal care arrangement for a child? Furthermore, could this lead to a situation where more than one widow's pension would be paid out after one individual passes away? Finally, what is the impact of this judgment on pension entitlements of cohabiting couples versus married couples? This has many implications but these are some of the pertinent questions that are being asked. There are thousands of people across this country who are impacted or potentially could be impacted by this judgment and any clarity the Minister could give the committee on this matter here this morning would be helpful.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Heather Humphreys)

I thank the Cathaoirleach and wish "Good morning" to everyone. I am glad to be here this morning with officials from my own Department of Social Protection, with officials from the Departments of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and of Justice. I will speak to the Bill first.

The purpose of this Bill is: to change the means test for social welfare payments in order that child maintenance payments will no longer be assessed as means; to remove the liable relative provisions from social welfare legislation; and to change the supports provided to people newly arriving from Ukraine who are living in designated accommodation centres. On Second Stage in the Dáil last week, I indicated my intention to bring forward Committee Stage amendments in this regard.

These amendments will remove the equivalence with Irish citizens in terms of accessing social welfare payments when they are in designated centres. This will align us more closely with other EU member states. The changes mean that newly arrived beneficiaries of temporary protection who are living in designated accommodation centres will receive a weekly payment of €38.80 per week. Some other technical amendments are required as a consequence of the insertion of these new provisions.

Amendments Nos. 1, 2, and 3 are technical, consequential amendments required to restructure the Bill into three Parts. Part 1 will provide for the Short Title. Part 2 will include the provisions as set out in the Bill as initiated, that is, it will provide for the removal of the liable relative provisions from social welfare legislation, and it will change the means test such that child maintenance will no longer be assessed as means. Part 3 will include the substantive provisions in relation to the supports for beneficiaries of temporary protection.

Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 are the substantive amendments. The purpose of these amendments is to provide that beneficiaries of temporary protection will not be eligible for the same social welfare payments as Irish citizens while they are resident in a designated accommodation centre. Instead of a social welfare payment, such persons will be entitled to a weekly payment of €38.80 per week. This will be administered by the Department of Social Protection on behalf of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Amendment No. 7 is a change to the Long Title, which is also required as a result of amendments Nos. 4 and 5.

I look forward to hearing from the committee members.

The Cathaoirleach has raised a number of relevant and important points with me in terms of the judgment in the O'Meara case. First, I acknowledge the loss that Mr. O'Meara and his family have suffered and I extend my sympathies to Mr. O'Meara and his children on the loss of a partner and a mother. Indeed, as we know, no payment from the State can make up for that loss.

This particular case relates to social welfare law, which sets out entitlements to a widow's, widower's or surviving civil partner's contributory pension - a pension which, under the law as currently enacted, is only available to a surviving partner who was party to a marriage or a civil partnership.

My officials and the Office of the Attorney General are now considering a very detailed judgment, which is over 160 pages, in three judgments, in total. The Supreme Court has not made its final order yet. It will make that order on Friday. In the meantime, I am engaging with the Attorney General on the impact of the judgment but I need to see the court order before we can make any further decisions.

The judgment and the orders, as the Cathaoirleach will be aware, are complex and will require careful consideration. As the judgment itself said, there needs to be a nuanced approach here. I will be working very hard, with the AG and with my officials. I will deal with this as a matter of urgency. I will be bringing forward legislation to change this in compliance with the judgment.

That is all I can say at the minute. I can assure the Cathaoirleach that I will deal with this as quickly as I can but I want to make sure I get it right because there are many other issues that I need to consider.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for her opening statement.

We move to the provisions of the Bill.

Amendments Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, are related and will be discussed together.

NEW SECTIONS

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following:

“PART 1

PRELIMINARY AND GENERAL

Short title, construction and commencement

1. (1) This Act may be cited as the Social Welfare and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2024.

(2) The Social Welfare Acts, Part 2 and Chapter 1 of Part 3 shall be construed together as one Act.

(3) Part 2 shall come into operation on such day or days as the Minister may by order or orders appoint either generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision and different days may be so appointed for different purposes or different provisions.

(4) Chapter 1 of Part 3 shall come into operation on such day or days as the Minister may, following consultation with the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, by order or orders appoint either generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision and different days may be so appointed for different purposes or different provisions.

(5) Chapter 2 of Part 3 shall come into operation on such day or days as the Minister for Justice may, following consultation with the Minister and the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, by order or orders appoint either generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision and different days may be so appointed for different purposes or different provisions.”.

This amendment provides for a restructuring of the Bill that is consequential on amendments Nos. 4 and 5. Following the amendments I am bringing forward today, Part 2 of the Bill will include the provisions as set out in the Bill as initiated, that is, it will provide for the removal of the liable relative provisions from social welfare legislation and change the means test such that child maintenance payments will no longer be assessed as means. The substantive amendments I am bringing forward, namely, Nos. 4 and 5, are being inserted into a new Part 3.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It says here the commencement will be whenever the Minister makes an order. In general, I do not like commencement dates that do not put some finite limit on the commencement because things can be left hanging around for a while. Would the Minister consider for Report Stage wording that Part 2 should come into operation on such day or days as the Minister may by order or orders appoint, either generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision, and different days may be so appointed and so on, but not later than one year, or something? What kind of time order does the Minister think we will have? What delay will there be between the Bill becoming an Act and the commencement?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

There will be no delay. I am already doing some of these things on an administrative basis with child maintenance. I am not requiring people to go to court. It is really that we are not taking in the maintenance payments. I need to put it into legislation that we are not taking them into consideration for any new payments at the minute, but then other people will be able to come back in and reapply. Some will qualify because I have changed this means test and there are others who may be getting a lesser payment and will get more. I am doing what I can at the minute to accommodate it and we certainly will not be holding this up. It will be enacted as quickly as I get it through the Houses.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Are we talking about a month or two or what?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

About a month, I suppose. We just have to make some regulations around it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I know. My only concern here is what happens if the Bill is passed and three months later the Minister is finding it hard to get the regulation out of the Department. To have an outer limit, in other words to say whatever day the Minister decides up to say, three or six months or whatever, will concentrate the mind on getting the regulations on her desk. That is what I am considering. The Minister wants to do it immediately but she knows that when it gets into the system, sometimes a deadline is a really helpful way of concentrating the mind to get the final regulation on the desk and not have it go around in circles. It is the same with Part 3. When will that come in? Again, the Bill leaves it open to the Minister.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I am going to make the regulations in two months. We are already doing much of what is in this Bill on an administrative basis. There are just a couple of details that need to be ironed out through regulations and I will be doing that as quickly as I possibly can. I am going to give the Deputy a date of two months from today.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

What about Part 3?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

That is a matter of weeks.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Okay. I will hold the Minister to that.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I ask my officials to take note of that and hold me to it.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That was going to be my question about Part 3.

It is worth saying this Bill is now effectively two Bills in one. I am in favour of both but if I brought forward amendments like this to the Bill they would be ruled out of order three times from Sunday. That being said, I do not necessarily disagree with it. That is the answer to the question I was going to ask. Part 3 is related to a very different matter. Maybe we can get an answer through the Minister from the officials, but the other two Departments will presumably need to make regulations related to Part 3 as well. Can we have a timescale on the regulations from those Departments?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Minister for children is bringing forward regulations, I understand, as soon as I get this legislation through. There is an urgency to this as we know. I assure the Deputy there should not be any delays in it. I am being told it will commence without delay.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I agree with the general point it is better to have a clear commencement date. The commencement date is not necessarily dependent on how quickly we are doing our business. It can happen within two months of the passing of the Bill or within a month of it. It is just a general point.

Amendment agreed to.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following:

“Definitions

2. In this Act—

“Minister” means the Minister for Social Protection;

“Principal Act” means the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005.”.

Amendment agreed to.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 3, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following:

“PART 2

LIABLE RELATIVES AND CHILD MAINTENANCE

Definition (Part 2)

3. In this Part, “Act of 2015” means the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015.”.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 1 deleted.

Sections 2 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.

NEW SECTIONS

An Cathaoirleach

Amendments Nos. 4, 5 and 7 are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 5, between lines 33 and 34, to insert the following:

“PART 3

BENEFICIARIES OF TEMPORARY PROTECTION

CHAPTER 1

Amendment of Principal Act

Disqualification from certain payments where person is resident in designated accommodation centre

7. The Principal Act is amended by the insertion of the following section after section 247C:

“247D. (1) A person who has been given a permission to reside in the State under section 60(6) of the Act of 2015, which permission is valid, shall be disqualified from receiving any assistance specified in section 139(1), other than supplementary welfare allowance, in so far as it relates to the payment of that allowance in accordance with section 201 or 202, for any week or part of a week during which he or she is resident in a designated accommodation centre.

(2) In this section—

‘Act of 2015’ means the International Protection Act 2015;

‘designated accommodation centre’ has the same meaning as it has in section 60 of the Act of 2015.”.”.

This amendment amends the Social Welfare Acts to provide for changes in the support provided to beneficiaries of temporary protections who are resident in designated accommodation centres. The EU temporary protection directive has been extended to March 2025.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I have many questions on this. I have read the amendments and from some discussions with the Department, it very much reads as though if people are in a designated centre then they are on the rate set by the Department of children. That would not have been my understanding from the press reports up to now, but maybe that is something the Minister can clarify.

Again, this to an extent goes to the other Departments, but does the Minister have a sense of where these protection centres are going to be? Do they include locations where Ukrainians are already, be those hotels or bed and breakfasts, or will none of the existing locations where Ukrainians are based be designated?

An Cathaoirleach

Before the Minister responds to that, she might answer something related to the Deputy's question. I presume this will apply to every person who has been granted refugee status who is now in a designated centre and not just to one nationality. Unfortunately, we have quite a lot of protection applicants who have been granted refugee status but who, because of a lack of accommodation, are stuck within the asylum accommodation system, meaning they are in some of these designated centres. I want to clarify whether this relates not just to one nationality and is across the board in relation to all refugees who are in accommodation centres provided by the State.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I will try to answer this as best I can. The amendment relates to applicants under the temporary protection directive, who are mainly Ukrainians because they qualified for that status when they came here. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is actively standing up arrival centres for use at the start of the new 90-day accommodation policy. The Department is identifying sufficient capacity of centres for designation and locations will be confirmed as they become available. The Cathaoirleach asked a question. As I understand it, IPAS recipients are already on the same rate of €38.80 per week so they do not qualify. When Ukrainians came here first, because they were beneficiaries under the temporary protection directive, they qualified for full social welfare payments in the same way as any EU citizen who comes here. We are now bringing this more in line with Europe. Once they are in a designated centre - in other words, once the State is providing them with accommodation - they will receive a reduced payment of €38.80 per week. That is the purpose of the legislation.

An Cathaoirleach

I may be wrong but my understanding is that someone in an IPAS centre who has been granted refugee status can apply for social welfare in the same way as an Irish or EU citizen or a Ukrainian with this special designation. My question is whether the two sets of refugees who have been given special status in Ireland, Ukrainians under the directive and refugees who have gone through the asylum process, will now be treated differently or in the same way. I would like clarification on that.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

They will not be treated differently under this proposal. This only applies to new Ukrainians coming into the country. Currently, there are Ukrainians in centres who are getting full social welfare payments under the temporary protection directive. That will remain the case. It is not anticipated to change that under this legislation.

An Cathaoirleach

My question does not relate to Ukrainians at all. My question is whether someone from outside the EU but not Ukraine, who is in the asylum system today and is granted refugee status during Easter week when this regulation has come into force will be treated differently under the law from a Ukrainian who comes in after that date.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

If they have status, regardless of where they come from, they will continue to receive the payments they are entitled to.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

To be clear, if I get a stamp 4 visa, through being designated a refugee or granted compassionate permission to remain or subsidiary protection and I am still in direct provision accommodation, will I still be on the €38 rate?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I am only changing things for those who are coming, specifically Ukrainians who are beneficiaries of the temporary protection directive. That is how we categorise them. I am not changing things for anyone else. Everything else remains as it is. It is only for new entrants who come to the country after the legislation is enacted.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Minister said that for welfare purposes, Ukrainians are treated in a similar way to EU citizens. There is one difference. There is no habitual residency condition, HRC, involved.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

That is right. That was waived.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That was waived completely.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Once they got status, they did not have to comply with the HRC.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I am representing Deputy Phelan and I have not spoken on these issues previously, so if my questions are not in order, I am happy to get an answer somewhere else. I am trying to understand the reason for this legislation. I compliment the Minister on all the work she has been doing and the way we are dealing with Ukrainians. I also commend the tremendous work being done by local authorities. This is a significant change for people who are fleeing Putin and his likes. I accept that we have done a fantastic job. I also acknowledge that the vast majority of these people are women and children. I am just asking why it is happening now. The Minister referred to different European regulations relating to Ukrainians in other countries. Is it in order to ask for a summary of what happens? Can we get a summary or paper analysis of it and the expectation of change? We have been extremely welcoming of Ukrainians. I support that, but this is a significant change and I am trying to understand the reason for it. Is there a question about timelines? If I am in State-provided accommodation, do I have to get out of it after a certain time? How temporary or permanent is it?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Deputy is correct. Ireland has welcomed more than 103,000 arrivals from Ukraine with 76,000 people currently living in State-provided accommodation, of whom 58,000 are in fully serviced accommodation. Ireland has welcomed 2.3% of those fleeing Ukraine who have come to the EU since the war, which is a significant response, and, as we know, people continue to come. A Government decision was made to amend the support and accommodation provided and that will more closely align us with other member states. We will, of course, continue to meet Ireland's obligations under the temporary protection directive. This will bring us in line with our EU colleagues. That is what we have decided to do.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

The question is: what is the detail of other countries? In what way are they the same or different?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Department has done an international comparison and we will send it on to the Deputy. The Oireachtas library has also done a comparison of this. The OECD has done an international comparison.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Is it possible to see it now?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I do not have it to hand but it has been done and the Oireachtas library has it.

An Cathaoirleach

In fairness, the Library and Research Service circulated a note on this yesterday to every Oireachtas Member.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I have multiple questions. I do not see the bit in these amendments or in Chapter 3 where it states this will be particular to new arrivals. It would be useful if that could be pointed out to me.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It is not specified in the amendments but it is the intent. The amendments states, "other than while he or she is resident in a designated accommodation centre", so being in a designated accommodation centre qualifies them, if the Deputy understands what I am saying. Once new arrivals go to a centre, the reduced payment applies.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I think-----

Deputy Heather Humphreys

These centres are only for new arrivals, by the way

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I do not know how that will work in practice, especially when a centre cannot be part designated. If the person who is managing a place that 20 Ukrainians are currently in, finds capacity for 15 more beds, will that be a designated centre? It cannot be a part designated centre.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It will not be but the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, will-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Just one second. If there are 15 more beds there and the provider says he or she can accommodate 15 more Ukrainians, do they then stay on the increased rate because they are in a centre in which things might be provided for them but it is not an officially designated centre?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

No, it has to be a designated centre to get the reduced payment.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Even though these people might arrive in May, for example, they will continue to get the full rate.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

No. If they go to a designated centre, they have to get the reduced rate. However, they will all be going to a designated centre. That is the intention. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, issued a statement that any new arrivals will go to a designated centre that would qualify for the reduced payment.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That seems hard to achieve for a number of reasons. There are a couple of issues. I have given that example. If a provider of accommodation offers 15 more places and comes to the Department of children, given the fact that it is not a designated centre, what does the Department then do? Does it turn down those 15 places? Similarly, if somebody left accommodation and maybe stayed with a friend or relative and then seeks accommodation from the State and the only accommodation available is in one of these designated centres, even though they arrived here before that date, are they then on the reduced rate or the increased rate? I cannot see how the new and old can remain oil and water. I cannot see how that can be achieved.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The designated centres will only include new arrivals and not existing beneficiaries. All new arrivals will go to designated centres. That is the intention. While they are there, they will receive a reduced payment. We were going into the detail of a centre that is perhaps half designated and half non-designated but that is not something I can answer.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

It is not provided for.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I do not expect that. They will no mixing them around like that. Designated centres will only include new arrivals. That is it. That is the way it is planned to do it.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I know the Department of children officials cannot speak here but if they can speak through the Minister, can they give any examples of where these designated centres will be? We are talking about hundreds or perhaps thousands of people. Based on what the Minister is saying, this will effectively be a completely new system and stratum of accommodation that is completely unrelated to the accommodation in which Ukrainians are currently in. Is it possible to give any indication of what kind of places these are or whether the Department of children knows where all these people will go?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Department of children is actively standing up arrival centres for use as these new centres. It will identify sufficient capacity of centres for designation and locations will be confirmed as they become available. Departmental officials are working on it as we speak. They are looking at designated centres for new arrivals and when those new arrivals come there, they will get the reduced payment. That is the plan.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I know this goes beyond the Minister, but this does not seem to be a fully thought-through plan.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

In fairness to the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, he is working on this. I am bringing the legislation through so we will then be in a position to make a reduced payment.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

As I said, this does not seem to be coherent. We do not make legislation usually on the basis of "It is not the expectation" or "It is not our intention".

Deputy Heather Humphreys

This is to reduce the payment.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I know.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

This has nothing to do with the centres rather it is to reduce the payment.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

However, this entirely hinges on the centres. If the only distinction made between new arrivals and those currently here hinges on the designated centres, that is flimsy and assumes that everything will go in terms of plain sailing and finding new accommodation centres, even though we have no indication of where and what these will be and what capacity they will have. We just have to take it on trust that the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman, will find them. In addition, we are to assume that in no circumstances will somebody who arrived before the date end up in these designated centres and that no person who arrives after the date will end up in a previous centre, even though capacity might exist.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Department of children officials are working on this. They are confident they will be able to accommodate the new arrivals in the designated centres. That is my understanding. It remains to be decided where the centres will be. The Department continually runs data modelling of arrival numbers, which allows it to plan for the arrival centre capacity required. They are doing much work on this at the minute and they are satisfied they will be able to have these centres in place for the new arrivals who will receive the reduced payment whenever this legislation is passed.

An Cathaoirleach

I think we have teased it out. The Minister has laid out the position on the legislation.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

There are many elements to this. First, taking this all in the round, there is a serious problem with the issue of the 90 days as well in that we will work so hard for all of this additional accommodation but then after 90 days people are expected to find their own accommodation. Not only that but with these reduced rates, it is worth stating that there is a significant difference now between somebody who does not go to an accommodation centre and somebody who finds their own accommodation. There is an element where there is an incentive for people to find their own accommodation, putting people who are seeking international protection from Ukraine in competition in the rental market. We will say, for example, there are two adults and two children in the accommodation centre. They would receive €137.20. If they are outside of these designated centres, they would receive €478 as well as being able to offer €800 to a landlord for accommodation. It is not difficult to imagine that people might make that choice and decide they would be better outside of the accommodation centre and seeking a place themselves, which puts them in competition in a severely overheated rental market.

We are talking about this in the context of this all hinging on designated centres and we have no idea where they will be. We are taking it on trust that the Department will have enough capacity and be able to find it all. There is already a two-tier system and we are creating a new tier within that. It is all hanging on the designation of centres, a list of which and an example of which do not exist at the minute.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I have said this previously. Officials in the Department of children are working extremely hard, as we all know. We know this is a difficult situation and there are challenges. They have said they will make accommodation available in these designated centres for new applicants, who will then receive a reduced amount. They will stay there for 90 days and then they will have options to decide what they want to do themselves. Do they want to leave the accommodation and find accommodation or do they want to return home? People have to take responsibility for themselves as well in some respect.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That is fair enough but the Government is encouraging them to compete in the private rental market.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I will not conflate this with the private rental market. That is not what it is about. They will have a reduced payment. My purpose here today is to get permission or agreement to bring forward a reduced payment for those who are coming to our shores and are being provided with accommodation in designated centres, which is to bring us in line with other EU member states.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Just to clarify, am I correct that the only distinction in this legislation between new arrivals and those who are already here is the accommodation in which they are housed?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

They will go to the designated centre. The Deputy can understand the thinking behind this. In the designated centre, their accommodation will be provided and they will get a lesser payment because all of these provisions are being made for them.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

From a legislative point of view, that is very thin. In practice, these will be oil and water. I cannot see how that can be delivered. A new category of accommodation is being created. It speaks to the whole issue of planning. We have no idea where these will be or how many of them there will be. We do not even have an example, not to mind the list that is supposed to be designated off the back of this legislation. That goes to other Departments and Ministers but as a whole-of-government approach, it does not seem a coherent plan and I have concerns about how it will work, particularly after 90 days when people are put out of the centres or even if they decide to leave because the money they get would be better. That will have an impact on the rental market, which is already severely overheated, not only in cities but in rural areas, which carry much of the weight in terms of accommodation at the moment. In many of those places, people who leave and are on higher money than they would be in the centres will be competing for places to rent. That will produce huge challenges in many communities.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I have told the Deputy exactly what we are doing. When it comes to the housing situation, things are improving, more houses are being built and the figures are very positive. There will be an announcement later this week on the figures to date. It is very encouraging. Many more houses are being built and more accommodation is available. I do not want to conflate housing and this issue. What I am doing is clear. We are trying to bring ourselves into line with other European countries and to give clarity that people coming to this country will go directly into designated centres, receive a reduced payment and, after 90 days, will have to make decisions as to what they will do.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I do not have an issue with being brought into line but having it hanging on the designated centres rather than on the date of arrival is legislatively thin. In a system that is already two tier as per those coming under the temporary protection directive and those coming from other countries, we are now creating two tiers within that in terms of the dates. The date is the issue to be addressed. If we tried to accommodate these people outside the private rental market in accommodation centres, the reduced rate would make sense in that context. To have it all hanging on that designation is too thin.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. I think he has made his point.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

People talk about planning but I think the extraordinary thing if we look at this is if somebody had said in early 2022 that we would accommodate 70,000 and put a roof over their head, they would be told it would take a ten-year plan. There was no time and it was largely achieved. We should be fair and recognise that.

I do not have the figures in front of me so am not sure how many people are coming in under the BOTP from Ukraine at the moment per month. I presume the object of the exercise is, by levelling us off with Europe, to make us equally but no more attractive than other European countries so there would be a better spread of people fleeing the war in Ukraine across the European Union. I was in Portugal on summer holidays last year and we asked the taxi driver how many Ukrainians were in Portugal, which has 10 million people, twice our population. It was way less than ours. We asked how that happened and he said "Money, money". Even as far away as Portugal, the message had got through. I take it the presumption is the number coming in - the Minister might dig out that number - will reduce. That is the first point.

The second point is it is hard to get information from the Department of children on the number of free beds. The word on the street is there are centres housing Ukrainians that are not full and there is space in some of them, so I am fairly hopeful a space could be found in a designated centre for all who want it. I do not think that is a problem.

I have an issue I expressed on Second Stage which I do not expect the Minister to change today. Many of the places involved are seasonal hotels now getting a 52-week per-year income. They tend not to be in the centres of population and some are quite far from centres of population. Therefore, €38 per week would not buy you lunch every day if you go to the local town or want to move outside the centre. Some of them are in places where there is not anything much locally. That payment across the board is unrealistically small. I am not talking about going back to where we were with Ukrainians but for all asylum seekers it is a very small amount, allowing that they have to get out every day.

I am concerned about the 90 days. If any number come in and have to look for accommodation on the market after 90 days, there is only one place to look and that is the rental housing sector. They will not be able to buy after 90 days. Maybe the concern will be allayed if the numbers are so small the amount leaving and going back will be greater than the amount coming in. If I come in under international protection, I can stay indefinitely until I get other accommodation, even after I get status. I am a little bit worried about that.

Finally, will the Minister clarify whether Ukrainians get a free travel ticket?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Deputy is right that we want to be fair and equal, but not more attractive because that creates problems in itself. There was a drop in numbers of BOTPs coming in over Christmas. There were about 500 last week. Those coming in under this new arrangement will be provided with full board and laundry services. There will be a lot of provision made for them. The amount set is €38.80. The policy for that falls within the Department of the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman. We make the payments in the Department of Social Protection. I do not think there are plans to increase the payment but these things are always kept under review.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There was a free travel question.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

They do not get free travel from us but a lot of travel is provided as part of the offering, is it not?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Where I live in Connemara, a huge number of them travel into Galway from places quite distant, taking Citylink and Bus Éireann buses and so on to hunt for employment and so on. If you do that five days per week and buy lunch out of €38, there are not many places that give a lunch for €6. That does not count the bus fare. The Minister rightly says it is the other Minister's responsibility.

However, regarding the rationale for that payment, sometimes we go from one extreme to another. When we look at the way people are actually operating, they are trying to get out of the centres every day. I do not think that is a bad thing; that is how they learn English, integrate, get jobs, etc. However, if that means they are paying for bus fare and buying their lunch, €38 would not do anything for them. I think we have to be realistic about this.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

In many cases, transport is provided. There is a centre in my own town in Monaghan where regular transport is provided in and out of a number of locations during the day into the centre of the town. Local Link has been very good in many areas in changing their routes to accommodate Ukrainian people who are living in rural areas. There is a lot of work ongoing at a community level through the local authorities and the local development companies in trying to make sure we assist people where possible to get transport when they want to go to work.

As the Deputy will know, I changed the CE schemes to allow people to come onto them much more quickly. Many have taken up that offer as well. I do not have the figures, but I know there are more people coming onto CE schemes. There is therefore a lot of work being done at a local level to try to accommodate their needs. At the moment, €38.80 is the payment and I think-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Heather Humphreys

-----and by the way, I will bring the points and concerns the Deputies have raised with me here to the Minister, Deputy O’Gorman.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I thank the Minister.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I want to go back to the question of the 90-day period. I appreciate all the good work that has been done and I want to acknowledge that. However, if it is to be mandatory for them to leave that accommodation after 90 days, it will create huge problems depending on the location of the centres. If they are not near resources, and because there is huge competition for rented accommodation anyway, I have a concern that this will put women and children at risk. Many of these will be very young children.

I do not have the breakdown of the figures, but I am sure there is a significant number of preschool children and primary school-going children in this cohort. Therefore, wherever they are located, there has to be adequate care for them in the community, as well as preschool and primary school resources. The location of these centres will probably have to be near greater centres of population and where other accommodation is available. However, if it is going to be mandatory for a person who has two or three young children to get out after 90 days, that will put the person in a despairing situation. The landlords in some cases will be providing very poor accommodation for those families. That is my concern as well. Is there flexibility with that 90-day period? It seems to me to be arbitrary. Why was it picked?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Once the 90 days have elapsed, beneficiaries will be required to vacate the accommodation so new arrivals from Ukraine can be supported. During the 90 days in designated accommodation, beneficiaries will be supported to find employment and source accommodation, which may be private or pledged. Of course, we have always had the support of the Red Cross, Offer a Home and private individuals. There will be some assistance for them. Yet, after 90 days they will have to leave the designated centres. That is it. We have to work with the various agencies-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

My problem is------

Deputy Heather Humphreys

-----to try to find-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Yes.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Minister, Deputy O’Gorman is working on this.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I appreciate that.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I said I will bring any concerns that are raised at this committee directly to the Minister-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

Sure, and I acknowledge that, too.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

There will be a Cabinet committee meeting on Thursday on this specific issue. I can assure the members that I will bring all the concerns they have raised here to that meeting as well. I intend-----

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I welcome that. Could the Minister raise a point for me? I am concerned. I understand why this is happening, I understand the points she is making, I support what the Government is doing and I recognise that the difficulties in creating accommodations for 70,000 people in such a short space of time are phenomenal. Yet, that does not get away from the fact that mothers with young children will not have accommodation and may very well be homeless.

I just want to make this point. I appreciate that the Minister is identifying the appropriate Minister who will be dealing with this. However, I want to put on record my concern about that, notwithstanding all the things we are doing. One way of dealing with this might be to look at extending that 90-day period if somebody has tried to find appropriate accommodation and cannot find it. The key point for families - I am specifically speaking about Ukrainian families - who have to move from A to B to C for whatever reason, is the availability of childcare, primary school places, GPs and other services. They are the key points.

I have one last question. I presume that the Government is consulting with many of the NGOs that work with refugees about what views they have on this.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I echo the point made by Deputy O’Dowd. There is a serious issue with this 90-day period for two reasons. Deputy O’Dowd has correctly made the point that there will be people in very invidious positions who have already fled conflict and who may not have any other place to go after that 90-day period.

I believe there is an incentive for people to compete in the private market. I know the Minister is talking about keeping it separate. Yet, she is going ahead with the 90-day period and she is also creating a huge difference in the amount that will be received by those who are outside the accommodation. I have given the example of two parents and two children. They would have €478 per week and €280 per month, with child benefit on top of that. They would have €800 towards rent. However, somebody inside the centre would have €137.20 per week. It is not difficult to see how people might decide they might be able to find something in the private rental market. This would add further competition to an already overheated market. There is a serious problem there for two reasons. There will be a serious issue when people leave accommodation because they might choose accommodation by competing in the private rental market.

My last point is on the fact that the payment rates hang so completely on the designation. This is flimsy and I do not think it will be able to achieve a complete separation. I do not think it amounts to a coherent plan or policy. I request that in advance of Report Stage, either in correspondence or through a meeting, this committee get a clear sense from the Department of children about where these centres will be, what they will look like and if they will be completely independent and separate from the accommodation that is being provided to date. We ought to know a bit more about it. I do not have an issue with us being brought into line with other countries, but the distinction between inside and outside that creates problems. I think we should be trying to accommodate people in the centres. Then, after the winding down of the temporary protection order, people will have choices in terms of visas and international protection. Yet for this period, I think the centres should be where the focus is.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Deputies. As we all know, this is an emergency situation. During the 90-day period in which people are in this designation accommodation, the beneficiaries will be supported in trying to find employment and sourcing accommodation which may be private or pledged, as I said earlier. The Department of children is actively standing up arrival centres for use at the start of the 90-day accommodation policy. The Department is identifying sufficient capacity of centres for designation and locations will be confirmed as soon as they become available.

As regards what we are doing in my Department with communities on the ground and people who have come here, we are working through the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, for which additional money was provided in budget 2024. We work closely with the local development companies. We are supporting them. They are doing great work on the ground throughout the country. They are engaging with new communities and helping them to integrate. They are breaking down barriers and the preconceived notions and perceptions that some people have. They are doing a significant amount of good work on the ground and we will continue to support them through the Department of Rural and Community Development.

We have the community recognition fund, for which €50 million was announced last year. That has been rolled out to accommodate communities that have taken in a high number of international protection applicants and Ukrainians. There is a lot of work taking place on the ground. I accept that we need to strengthen that further. We will do so.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

How is this being communicated? Is there a plan to communicate the message that this significant change is coming down the road?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Yes, there will be a communication plan in place. As I stated, we will have a Cabinet committee meeting on Thursday. I expect that other Departments will come forward with their plans for how we implement this in terms of communication.

Amendment agreed to.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 5, between lines 33 and 34, to insert the following:

“CHAPTER 2

Amendment of International Protection Act 2015

Amendment of International Protection Act 2015

8. Section 60 of the International Protection Act 2015 is amended—

(a) by the insertion of the following definition in subsection (1):

“ ‘designated accommodation centre’ means a premises designated under subsection (14A)(a);”,

(b) in subsection (10)—

(i) by the substitution of “a person who has been given a permission to reside in the State under subsection (6), which permission is valid,” for “a displaced person to whom subsection (2) applies”, and

(ii) by the substitution of the following paragraph for paragraph (b):

“(b) to receive, upon and subject to the same conditions applicable to Irish citizens, the same medical care and, other than while he or she is resident in a designated accommodation centre, the same social welfare benefits as those to which Irish citizens are entitled, and”,

and

(c) by the insertion of the following subsection after subsection (14):

“(14A) The Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth—

(a) may, where he or she is satisfied that the premises concerned are suitable for the purpose, designate in writing such and so many premises as he or she considers appropriate for the accommodation of persons who have been given a permission to reside in the State under subsection (6), which permission is valid, and

(b) shall, as soon as practicable after a designation is made under paragraph (a), ensure that the fact of such designation is published on a website maintained by or on behalf of him or her or the Government.”.”.

Amendment agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

Amendment No. 6 is out of order.

Amendment No. 6 not moved.

Question proposed: "That section 7 be deleted."

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I reiterate my view that we are dealing with two Bills in one. In the context of child maintenance, it is a really good and positive piece of work and I commend all those involved. It will make a significant difference. I reiterate our support for that aspect. As regards the other side of things, I agree with it being brought in line but the inside-outside distinction will create problems when so much is hanging on the designation.

The point I wish to address is that the temporary protection directive will wind up in May next year. The protection afforded to people who have already arrived here is linked to that directive. There is a question for the whole of Government with regard to what will happen when the directive comes to a conclusion. It cannot be extended. A new directive could be brought forward but I do not anticipate that happening. The directive itself cannot be extended further. It is not clear what the Government expects will happen at that point for those who are already here. In the context of social protection, however, if the directive elapses they will no longer be entitled to the full rate of social protection payments unless there is a change of Government policy. What does the Government anticipate happening in that regard? What is it planning for when the directive elapses in the context of social protection payments for people currently benefiting from them?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The temporary protection directive falls under the Minister for Justice. Discussions are ongoing at EU level regarding what will happen when temporary protection comes to an end in March 2025. The Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, is dealing with that. The Deputy asked what will happen to people who are here under the directive. Obviously, these discussions will take place at EU level and there will be a uniform approach throughout Europe. I suspect those in question will be able to apply through IPAS for status to remain here. That may be a possibility. I am not saying it will happen, but it is a possibility. Some of them will have set up family here. Some people are contributing and we will be glad to keep them at that stage. It is something we can consider down the road.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That is my point - consideration of this should not take place down the road. We need to be------

Deputy Heather Humphreys

We have another year, in fairness.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

A year can go quickly, particularly if people are applying for IPAS. There are plenty of people waiting far more than a year for an IPAS determination. A year is not a lot of time in this context.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It has to be thought through. We have to make decisions-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I appreciate that. The point I am making is that it needs to be talked through now for several reasons. The first reason is that the decisions made in this jurisdiction in respect of social protection are not necessitated by the directive. These decisions have been taken independently here. Similarly, the decisions on the elapsing of that can be taken here as well. The Minister suggested that people could apply to IPAS. If such persons are considered fresh applicants in that regard, they would be placed on the international protection payment rather than having full access to the social protection system as they currently enjoy. They would potentially drop down to that payment. Alternatively, they may apply for a work visa and may be successful in that regard. A lot of them would be successful if they were to make such an application. Many of those in question will make a significant contribution for decades to come, and that will be very welcome, but we need to figure out exactly will be done in respect of the temporary protection directive, the social welfare decisions that have been taken on foot of the directive and how we will deal with the situation after next May. A year is not a very long time in that context. A discussion needs to be happening now. This committee can be part of that discussion on how we prepare for that transition. There is no clear plan for a transition at the moment.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

There are a couple of issues here. First, we will have to see what happens with the war in Ukraine. Unfortunately, it has gone on far longer than any of us anticipated. There are far more people coming to our shores than we anticipated. The second thing is we will work with our EU partners. This will be a decision for the Department of Justice. Many people have come here from Ukraine. They are contributing to the economy and have settled into the country. I do not see any reason we would not want them to stay here. These are decisions the Government will make, however. The directive does not expire until 2025. The situation is evolving all the time. I have no doubt this will be discussed down the road and we will come to the right decision. We have not been found wanting when it came to dealing with the situation when it was an emergency back in 2022. We have dealt with those arriving in a humane way and we will continue to do so. As the situation evolves, we will make the necessary decisions.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

There is no disputing that many of those who have come from Ukraine are already making a significant contribution. As I stated, many of them will contribute for many years to come, be central to many communities and make their home there. The point is the war in Ukraine may last beyond the temporary protection directive. Whether it lasts another month or another ten years, the directive will finish and that will have legal implications. It will also have implications for the infrastructure that has been created around the temporary protection directive, including social protection, medical care and so on. That discussion needs to happen now, rather than down the road. It would hardly be fair to tell a person on the day before the temporary protection directive elapses that he or she should probably consider applying for international protection. People need to have sight of what will happen. That discussion needs to happen sooner than down the road.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I take on board the points the Deputy is making but the directive will not expire until May 2025. The Minister for Justice will have discussions with our EU partners on this matter.

As I said, I have no doubt the Government will do the right thing when that time comes. In fairness, there is a while to go yet. I understand the Minister for Justice is at a Council meeting tomorrow.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

We always have to think about things from a policy point of view, and be thinking ahead, but there is no point in working the detail until we are much closer to the date because things can change either for the better or rapidly the other way. We saw how during Covid, for example, restrictions suddenly fizzled out. I presume, however, that those who are working in the economy will not be treated as coming from third countries as regards continuing to work here. If they have jobs, they should be allowed to continue to work here. Based on the figure the Minister gave us, something like 33% of adult Ukrainians are working, if we exclude children and pensioners. Of the potential workforce, we were given a figure of 33%, which is quite high, considering the language barriers they faced. In the experience of a lot of us, many of them are very active in seeking employment. They are in jobs such that if they were all suddenly to disappear, there would be a huge gap in providing employment. The big change in the world is that labour shortages are the problem.

It is important that we upskill and focus significantly on training. We know where the shortages are in the economy. We should match the skills to the abilities of people and train them, particularly where there are gaps in the economy that they can fill. I agree with the Minister that we need to be thinking about it but not making final decisions until much nearer the date.

It is to be hoped the war does not go on and on. We can never lose sight of the loss of life and humanitarian suffering caused by war. In the meantime, we all have to redouble our efforts to end this war.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I agree with the Deputy that we have to redouble our efforts to make sure this war comes to an end. It is very difficult for people. There is no doubt about that. He is right that 33%, or approximately 17,000, of Ukrainians are working. The Department continues to engage with them all the time to try to find employment for them and break down those barriers, which were mainly language initially. That is why they are on the CE schemes. We allowed them access to those much more quickly and they are contributing there.

As the Deputy said, we have to deal with the situation we have now. Everybody thinks ahead but things change. We cannot make decisions now on what will happen down the road because we do not know. I agree with the Deputy on that.

Question put and agreed to.

TITLE

Minister for Rural and Community Development. (Deputy Heather Humphreys)

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 3, to delete line 6 and substitute the following:

“An Act to amend the Social Welfare Acts to exclude assessment of child maintenance payments from social welfare means tests and to repeal the provisions relating to liable relatives; to make further provision for certain matters relating to persons to whom permission to reside in the State is given under section 60(6) of the International Protection Act 2015 and, for that purpose, to amend the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 and the International Protection Act 2015; and to provide for related matters.”.

Amendment agreed to.

Title, as amended, agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

Pursuant to Standing Order 187(3), the clerk will report specially to the Dáil that the committee has amended the Title. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Bill reported with amendments.

An Cathaoirleach

Do members wish to ask any final questions or make any comments on the Bill before we conclude? No. Does the Minister wish to make any closing remarks?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Deputies for their contributions. As I said, I hear what they are saying and I listen, as they know. I will bring some of the concerns raised to the relevant Ministers.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for participating.