Select Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands debate -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 2024

Vote 37 - Social Protection (Revised)

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Ó Laoghaire is running late. Members are required to participate in the meeting remotely from within the Leinster House complex only. I remind those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

I welcome the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, to the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before we consider today's business, I want to take a moment to remember our former colleague and Taoiseach, the late John Bruton. While tributes will be paid to John in the Dáil Chamber this afternoon, it would be remiss of us not to acknowledge the critical role that John played in supporting the development of the Oireachtas parliamentary committee structure. It is only fitting that the first Dáil committee meeting to take place after his passing is that of the social protection committee, as he was a very strong advocate for social justice. It is also apt that it happens to be an Estimates meeting, because John was a very strong promoter of public accountability and the vital role played by us, as TDs, in ensuring such accountability.

On behalf of the committee, I extend my deepest sympathies to Finola, Matthew, Juliana, Emily and Mary-Elizabeth; to his brother, Richard, and sister, Mary; and to the Fine Gael party on John's passing. John's legacy as both a statesman, and a sincere, compassionate individual, will undoubtedly endure. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

The committee will now consider the supplementary Estimate for Vote 37 - social protection. I welcome the Minister and her officials here today, and the Aire Stáit, Deputy Joe O'Brien. I invite the Minister to make her opening statement.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Heather Humphreys)

I thank the Chairman for his words of sympathy to the Fine Gael party on the death of former Taoiseach, John Bruton. I would like to be associated with the comments that he made. I will speak later on in the Dáil on the matter. I am thinking of his family, in particular his wife, Finola; his children, Matthew, Juliana, Emily and Mary-Elizabeth; and of course, his brother, Richard, and sister, Mary, during these difficult few days. I thank the Chairman for that.

I also thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for the invitation to attend today to discuss the 2024 Revised Estimates for the Department of Social Protection. As we look forward to another new year in 2024, it is timely to recap on the significant challenges that Ireland has faced over the past 12 months. During 2023, we saw significant continued inflationary pressures, exacerbated by the ongoing war in Ukraine. While it is welcome that the two most recent Central Statistics Office, CSO, monthly bulletins have reported a decrease in inflation below 5%, we will all agree that inflation had a significant impact on households and the cost of living during 2023. My Department has been front and centre in the delivery of the Government’s response in this area, supporting our families through budget 2024, which is the largest social protection budget in the history of the State.

We have also seen continued supports delivered for Ukrainian people arriving in Ireland who are fleeing the horrific war in their home country. We will continue to support these people, albeit with amended approaches, in 2024. Last September, the EU Council agreed to extend the period of temporary protection to March 2025. It is, therefore, necessary to consider the arrangements required across Government to support this longer-term implementation of the temporary protection directive. As members will be aware, Ireland is changing its approach to the provision of accommodation and supports to beneficiaries of temporary protection in order to be more sustainable and more closely aligned to other member states, while continuing to meet our obligations under the temporary protection directive.

In framing the financial Estimates position for 2024, and comparing it with the outturn for 2023, my officials have sought to provide the committee with a like-for-like comparison between the two years by isolating not only Estimates for the cost of the Christmas bonus, but also the January bonus that was paid last week and the cost of temporary protection measures to support Ukrainians.

All of this is outlined in the extensive briefing document before the committee. Projected spending for the Department in 2024 is €25.6 billion, compared with an estimated outturn for 2023 of €24.9 billion. It should be borne in mind that spending in 2023 was boosted by the inclusion of almost €1.3 billion in once-off cost-of-living supports.

As members will be aware, the work of the Department is broad in scope, supporting people throughout the life cycle, from the payment of child benefit to the provision of income support when people reach pension age. The Department's expenditure, at €24.9 billion for 2023, is the largest of any Department, representing more than one third of gross current Government expenditure. With this level of expenditure, we must ensure our social protection system is properly structured and provides support when people need it most. As demonstrated over the past two years, I hope the committee will join me in thanking the staff of the Department, particularly those working on the front lines, who have tirelessly worked through Covid and the various other challenging periods our country has faced. Our people, our systems and our schemes have all shown huge flexibility in responding so well and so quickly to these unprecedented challenges. The work continues into 2024 as we continue to refine our responses to ongoing issues, such as support for Ukraine, aligning Ireland’s position more closely with other EU member states, while continuing to meet our obligations under the directive.

The projected 2024 expenditure of €25.6 billion hopefully represents a normalisation of the pattern of social protection spending, but it also represents a new normal of a higher level of expenditure incorporating budget 2024 measures of more than €1 billion. I am proud, for the second year in succession, to have again delivered the largest social welfare budget package in the history of the State. It is a package that provides a targeted mixture of once-off and ongoing measures, which the ESRI’s post-budget analysis has shown will be effective in protecting most households from rising prices, especially the most vulnerable in our society.

In 2023, we provided lump sum supports in two phases. The first was part of a €402 million spring package, which had a particular focus on supports for children, with child benefit and back to school, clothing and footwear allowance measures prominent. Second, as part of the budget 2024 package, we provided a €867 million package of once-off measures in quarter 4 of 2023, supporting a wide range of social protection recipients, including pensioners, people with disabilities and those of working age.

Moving into 2024, further budget 2024 supports are becoming available, funded as part of the Revised Estimates. From the start of January, we have seen a wide range of social protection increases come into effect, which were announced as part of budget 2024. This includes a €12 across-the-board increase to weekly rates, meaning that core weekly payments have been increased by €24 over the past two years. A January double week bonus, paid at the higher 2024 weekly rate and on the same basis as the Christmas bonus, to support people with additional winter costs, was paid last week at a cost of €342 million. These measures are reflected in the expenditure subheads presented today.

The biggest single block of expenditure in 2024 will be on pensions, which will amount to more than €10.7 billion or just under 42% of overall expenditure. This is up by almost €543 million from the 2023 outturn, with €238 million of this increase linked to additional recipient numbers, a fact which reflects the ever-increasing demographic challenges unfolding for this programme. Thankfully, people are living longer lives but that, of course, means an increasing proportion of the Department's expenditure is now providing income support for people in their older years.

Expenditure on illness, disability and carer's payments amount to €5.6 billion in 2024. That represents 21.9% of expenditure and is up by 1.5% on 2023’s provisional outturn. Working-age income supports will account for just over 16% of expenditure in 2024 at €4.1 billion. This includes payments for jobseeker's, one-parent families, maternity and paternity payments, and supplementary welfare allowance. Expenditure on employment supports is estimated at €655 million or 2.6% of total expenditure. This will provide significant support to community employment, back to education allowance, Tús, the rural social scheme and the various employment and activation programmes, which will be again important in 2024, a year when the Irish economy and the labour market face risks on the downside.

Expenditure on children and families will account for more than 11% of expenditure, over €2.8 billion, of which more than €2.1 billion will be spent on child benefit and €375 million on the working family payment. Expenditure on supplementary payments is €927 million, or 4% of 2024 expenditure.

In conclusion, the broad overview I have presented of social protection expenditure is developed in detail in the briefing material provided to the committee. I am sure the committee will agree it is a comprehensive analysis of 2024 expenditure on the largest and, potentially, most complex Estimates.

There is little doubt that 2024 will bring challenges for social protection spending, including evaluating how changes in the economy are impacting those who are most at risk of poverty. My Department has demonstrated its ability and flexibility to effectively support the most vulnerable, as evidenced in the last few years, in particular. Along with the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, I look forward to hearing the committee's views and welcome any questions members have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for her opening statement. We will now go through the Estimates section by section and seek questions from members. The first section is on administration. Do colleagues have questions on administration? No. We will move on to pensions. Do members have questions on pensions? No. We will move to section 3, which is on the working-age payments and income supports. I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

First, I want to be associated with the comments the Cathaoirleach made at the start. As I was in my office, I remembered how I sat my leaving certificate in 1994. The rainbow coalition was the first government I was aware of, and I am not sure that I would be sitting here if it were not for the rainbow coalition, particularly given its interventions around college fees. I do not think my family would have had the reach without those interventions. John Bruton was the leader of that government and coalition, and I remember him fondly. My best wishes to his family at this time.

I am assuming the working family payment falls under income supports. Am I on the right section?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

I wanted to ask the Minister about the expansion of bands for working family payments. Has that translated into a larger uptake among people? Have the wage inflation or wage increases within our economy counterbalanced the changes we have made? Are we seeing many more people availing of the working family payment? Has expanding those bands been a success? Do we have a sense of the anti-poverty impact, which is what we are hoping to get from this payment?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The working family payment is actually under the children programme. It is a very successful scheme. It helps to top up the income for the low-paid. It has not actually increased. Yet, as I said, it is a very important scheme. We continue to provide that support, which is important. It is very good in terms of combating poverty.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

Do we know how many people are availing of the scheme and the expansion in numbers over successive budgets?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Yes. There are currently 45,316 families in receipt of the working family payment. New applications remain high compared to previous years. There was an average of 602 applications per week. Some 80% of all applications are received online. Budget 2024 announced a €400 cost-of-living payment for working family payment recipients, which was paid on 23 November. That was a top-up they got then in the form of a lump sum payment.

Budget 2024 also announced an increase of €54 to the income thresholds for all family sizes. The increase in thresholds is due to take effect from 4 January, and each family in payment will receive an additional €32 per week from January.

In terms of the processing times, they are all processed within two weeks of receipt. The number of new claims pending at the beginning of November was 3,944. From the beginning of 2023, the scheme has been a centralised operation in Letterkenny.

There is a good bit of work there.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh

The Minister may not have the information in front of her but I would be interested to know whether the Department has a breakdown by family size because the eligibility is dependent on family size. It would be interesting to me and the other members of the committee to have a sense of this. I assume it is people with larger families who tend to avail of the working family payment but I would not like to rely on that assumption without having hard figures.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I will get that detail for the Deputy and will provide it to the committee. The bulk of the families have one or two children. That is majority, I am told. We will find the information.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister and her officials will recall engagement I had with them previously in respect of the working family payment. The payments received by larger families has not kept in train with the increases for smaller families over the past decade. It is an issue the Parliamentary Budget Office flagged with us. The committee would ask the Minister to look at that in the context of the forthcoming budget to ensure there are proportionate increases across family sizes. The changes to the working family payment in recent years discourage families with a larger number of children from participating in the workforce. It is not just the related immediate issues, including poverty, but there are also long-term social consequences. We ask the Minister to consider the issue in the context of her consideration of the budget for 2025. Would anyone else like to come in on working age income supports?

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I echo the expressions of condolence to the family and community of John Bruton. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis. I also echo the Minister's comments about the staff of her Department, particularly those on the front line. I was listening in on the meeting but I missed the administration head. I have one question in that regard. On the working age payments-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy may ask a brief question on administration. We have moved on but I will take that question.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

For most of the payments, if not all, the processing times are close to target and they are paid in four to eight weeks or perhaps a little longer sometimes. It is increasingly my experience that there are delays. The social welfare appeals office is obviously an independent office that is funded through the Department but the timescale for those appeals can be considerable. Is the resourcing of that office something to which the Minister has paid attention?

I previously raised the following issue with the Minister. She replied to a parliamentary question I asked to confirm that 5,631 working family claimants are also claiming the one-parent family payment. That is 12.4% of working family payment claimants, which is considerable. I again highlight the fact that as soon as their youngest child turns 12, they will lose that payment. It might be useful to clarify that we are talking about a considerable number of families who are potentially about to experience that cliff edge. I previously raised the issue with the Minister and she said it was something to which she would give consideration. The budget for this year has come and gone and that cliff edge has not been addressed. I want to get her remarks in that regard because those affected are down by a considerable amount, at well over €100 per month, as soon as their youngest child turns 12. That is an area of concern that needs to be addressed because it is a potential poverty trap.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Deputy asked about administration in the context of the appeals office. I have also raised this issue with my officials. In many cases, appeals are being delayed because the information is not being provided. When a case goes to appeal, the appeals office sometimes has to go back to the claimant and more information has to be obtained. It is certainly something on which we keep a close eye.

In fairness, our turnaround in social protection - and I know the Deputy will accept that - is very efficient vis-à-vis other Departments. It is very good at processing and getting decisions out as quickly as possible. If there is any specific-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Briefly, sometimes when people are asked for additional information, they were not asked for it in the first place. The appeals office comes back to them looking for information for which they were not asked in the first place and they are then asked to provide it. I say that as a point of information.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

To be fair, sometimes it is information they should have provided themselves in the first place and we find there is over and back with information-----

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Sometimes, yes.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Deputy will know himself.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That is true sometimes but sometimes it is-----

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I know from my own experience that applications can go in, particularly for carer's allowance, and I found that all the information was not provided by the applicant and then it has to go over and back. It is something on which we keep a close eye. The Deputy asked about the working family payment. When a child reaches 12, those families will see an increase in the working family payment to offset the loss of 60% to the one-family payment. There is an offset there so it is not just the cliff edge at the age of 12 when it drops off.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I should clarify; I made an error there. There is a cliff edge at age 12 as well but it is the cliff edge at seven that I was actually thinking of. When they move from the one-parent family payment to the transitional payment, they can no longer claim working family payment with that. Those 5,000 people will lose their working family payment when they move on to the transitional payment.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

That is true. The Deputy will appreciate when it comes to budget time, there are a lot of competing priorities. I look at everything but sometimes just cannot do everything. I take his point but the families are better off on the working family payment than they are on jobseeker's transitional payment.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

That is precisely the point and I put-----

Deputy Heather Humphreys

That is the point the Deputy is making. I said I would look at it. The point I am making is that when it comes to budget time, there are other competing priorities all the time. I look at these things but in this occasion I did not get an opportunity to change it but it is something on which I keep an eye.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I accept that. To some extent, I see it as a minor bit of progress in that the Minister is not saying there is any policy objection from the Department to examine that. That is positive because there has been a firm resistance in the past to examining that. It was a recession era change. The message that people, particularly the organisations, have got is that it is immovable. If the Minister is saying it is not immovable but is a matter of budgetary constraints, then that is encouraging.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Okay. I do not have anything further to say.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Ó Cuív on the working age income supports.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have a point on the administration.

An Cathaoirleach

Briefly, as we have moved on.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have a number of appeals in the system, which I am everybody else has, that are a long time in the Department. They are not waiting for further information, or if they are, it has not been sought. It is a cause of great distress for people when they are months and months waiting for decisions. Would it be possible for the Minister to get the information for us regarding, in all cases where there are no outstanding requests for further information from the appeal's office, the length that appeals are taking according to particular schemes? I tabled a parliamentary question in on one case and there were quite a few outstanding. It is a major problem. Most of the other parts of the Department are reasonably fast coming back with decisions but appeals have gotten longer and longer.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I am happy to do that. I will provide the Deputy with a list of the outstanding appeals. I take his point that if people are waiting a long time, it is distressing for them.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister. If there are no other questions under income supports, we now move on to working age-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have one question. Are we doing working payments?

An Cathaoirleach

On income supports, yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

So this is jobseeker's allowance and so on. Apologies, I was delayed.

I am still on about a big policy issue all the time on why we are not facilitating more people who are on long-term jobseeker's payments onto schemes and to stay on schemes?

An Cathaoirleach

We will be dealing with schemes next, now.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Okay, but which does this come under?

An Cathaoirleach

Bring it up under this heading and then we can move on to the schemes then.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

What I am trying to do is move the people on jobseeker's, toforce the people who want to be more active off the jobseeker's and on to schemes. There seem to be places on the schemes and rules are holding up people staying on schemes. What is the policy position on this and has there been any change on the policy position on trying to encourage people to engage with the system? On the other hand, there is a small number of people who are on jobseeker's allowance who are unlikely, for a variety of reasons that would not qualify them for DA, or who do not want to engage with activation services. They might have personal issues in that regard. It seems to me there should be some discretion to make a case-by-case decision that people who cannot find it in themselves to engage do not have to engage. Otherwise, it winds up that the DA is saying they are capable of work but in reality they might not be that capable of work. This is a human problem that we are coming across but the system is becoming much more systematic to assist them than it used to be in the old days and there is a lot less discretion in such cases.

Deputy Joe O'Brien

In general on job activation schemes, CE, Tús and RSS but CE and Tús in particular, we have upscaled the numbers in the Department who are working on getting referrals in to sponsor organisations as well. The last two months have seen relatively good statistics around the numbers. Most of last year we were staying steady in the numbers of referrals. That is creeping up in the right direction now but we do still have vacancies in CE and in Tús. There have been some targeted measures but there is no holding back in pursuing people to engage in them, as well. Sometimes the placement is not suitable for the person. Sometimes the vacancies a sponsoring organisation has do not fit the people sent to them. Tús is when there are direct referrals, and there are still a few thousand vacancies in that regard, but there are ongoing efforts and there is now flexibility for the sponsoring organisation to look for and recruit a person themselves. Referral activity has gone up a lot in the past 12 months. That is more or less keeping us in a steady state at the moment but there is more flexibility for the sponsoring organisations too. We have done a couple of pilot projects for qualified adults. We have an increased number of qualified adults engaging in the schemes. We have 400 beneficiaries of temporary protection in Tús and CE combined and that number will probably climb over time. There have been a couple of test areas where we have literally rung people, and got them on the phone to encourage them towards schemes. They are very labour intensive but they tend to be quite successful in getting people in. We are proactive in pursuing people who have been very long-term unemployed as well. There are options there for them. They have not been forgotten; that is the message. There is proactive activity going on in relation to them.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I notice that the provision in the Estimate for people here from Ukraine has gone up for 2024.

I would have thought the projection was that there would not be as many people coming in as previously, particularly with the recent Bill that the Minister has brought in. As the payments would not be as big and a larger number of these people would become engaged in the workforce, the provision should drop rather than go up, so many people will be surprised that it is on a trajectory upwards.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Of course, this provision was made in December before the changes that are currently going through the Houses of the Oireachtas. The numbers have continued to increase this year and, as we know, a lot more were coming in during the last quarter of 2023. We felt that was an appropriate provision at the time.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I accept that more people came in during the last year and I presume that until the laws change, they will continue to come in in reasonably large numbers, and we might even get a rush of people trying to get in ahead of that. As opposed to that, I would have thought there was an outflow of people and it would be expected to continue over the coming year because they would take up employment and would not be drawing social welfare anymore. The Minister gave us the figure previously that one third of the adult recipients who are eligible to take up employment are now in employment. I would have thought that with the demands for workers and their increasing capability in English, and so on, more and more of them would engage in the workforce.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

In terms of engagement in the workforce, we have a number of programmes and we are actively engaging with Ukrainians who are available to work. There are 83,000 who remain in Ireland and the average number of temporary protection applicants per week in 2024 is higher than the 2023 level. There are currently some 17,000 in employment and we continue to engage and work with them to give them opportunities to take up employment. I would encourage them to do that. The Deputy is correct that about one third of the 83,000 are working and there is a high percentage of pensioners here, as well as one-parent families, who obviously cannot go out to work due to child caring responsibilities.

We do engage with them. As the Deputy has discussed with me, we allow them to go onto the CE schemes to try to overcome some of the barriers, the main one being language. We are hoping they will continue to take up those offers. We are doing everything we can to try to get them into the workforce. Many of them are making a strong contribution. Ukrainians are working in my own Department and contributing very positively to its work.

An Cathaoirleach

If no one else wishes to come in on the working-age employment supports, we will move on to the next section, which deals with blindness, disability and carers. Are there any questions on those schemes? No. The next section concerns children. Are there any questions?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The provision for children has decreased. I take it that has to do with a drop in the birth rate or is it the one-off payments?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It is the one-off payments. There was a one-off payment that was not included in that.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There is always a kind of process. How many one-off payments were there? This one was in regard to child benefit.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I am sorry, can the Deputy repeat that?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

How many were given in 2023?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

We gave two in 2023. We gave the double payment just before Christmas and we gave a €100 lump sum payment last year.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Is there anything pencilled in for double payments?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

No, there is nothing. The double payments are finished now. We gave a double payment at the end of January for everybody on the social welfare payments, as the Deputy knows.

That will be a decision. There were double payments in April last year. The cost of living and inflation were much higher than they are now and that was a once-off decision by Government to address the cost of living.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I know. I accept that. The Minister is saying that there is no provision for any double payment of child benefit this year.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

No.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There was no increase in the child benefit either.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

No.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Okay. The fiction of the one-off Christmas bonus every year has not been provided for either.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

That is the way it has always been done.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is the way it is done every year. The money comes up and if it did not, the Minister would be in trouble, would she not? Even you appreciate that. I do not mean "even you", but the whole system appreciates that it will be given but it is never put in the Estimates for some mathematical reason in the Department and the Department of public expenditure and reform.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I would say it is more the Department of public expenditure and reform.

An Cathaoirleach

Could we focus on children? We have already dealt with pensions.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

This is important.

An Cathaoirleach

We are going through the Estimate.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

One of the structural changes that I would be totally in favour of, and I wonder whether consideration was given to it, would be giving a double child benefit in September when children go back to school. When children go back to school, not only do they go back to school with all the attendant costs, but there are huge costs to joining all the various clubs, including for music, dancing and all the other things that children do and should be encouraged to do. They are important for the development of children. If two families have the same income, but one has children and one does not, the one with children has significant extra financial pressures on the same income. People who would be termed middle class and who have children, a mortgage and so on, face huge pressures at certain times of the year. In a year when there was no increase in child benefit, was consideration given to structuring into the system a double payment in September to help defray these costs and encourage parents who engage their children in outside activities? These are not really optional. It is important to the development of young people that they are involved in activities rather than hanging round the place.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

We have the targeted measure, which is the back to school clothing and footwear allowance. That is targeted at low-income families going back to school in September. We have expanded the school meals programme, which will be a big help. It is coming onstream for another 900 schools from 1 April. We extended the child benefit to 18-year-olds in full-time education, which will come in later in the year. We have done a number of things. It is like everything around budget time. It is the same as with Deputy Ó Laoghaire's point. I cannot do everything. There is much more that we would love to do. We try to target it as much as we can.

An Cathaoirleach

If there are no other questions on children, we will move on to supplementary payments, agencies and miscellaneous.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I am not sure if it is miscellaneous or the working age payments. The point on payments follows on from the point made by Deputy Ó Cuív about payments made to those from Ukraine. I seek clarity from the Minister. In the Dáil last week, when debating one of my amendments, she raised the possibility that one of my amendments might prevent the reduction of payments to people from Ukraine who are already here, though I do not believe it would. The Taoiseach subsequently stated that was not something that was anticipated at this point.

We previously had a discussion in the context of the legislation during which it was stated the temporary protection directive would come to a close in May. It is important to prepare for that. It is only fair to people who are already on payments to have a clear roadmap. At that point, people who are here under the directive will have the option to apply for visas or for international protection, depending on the situation in Ukraine at that time. If they were in the international protection system, they would be entitled to the international protection payments, similar to Ukrainians who arrived after the passing of that legislation and are in accommodation.

Will the Minister clarify the position? Is the Government examining this? How is the Department preparing for the end of the directive? What does it see as its role in terms of those applicants or claimants at the expiry of the protection directive?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

As the Deputy knows, I am bringing the legislation through at the moment to reduce the payment to €38.80 per week for new arrivals from Ukraine who reside in designated State-provided accommodation. We have discussed this at length on Committee and Report Stages over the past few weeks. There will be a further opportunity to discuss it in the Seanad.

The point I made in the Dáil related to the specific amendment that was proposed. I was simply making the point that we could not rule out in the future looking at payments for people who are already here. As the Deputy said, the temporary protection directive expires in March 2025, so I was being upfront that we cannot rule out what action may be required down the road. We should not tie our hands. Both the Taoiseach and the Minister have reiterated this point.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I would consider it a matter of fact that the amendment would not have prevented that. I consider it an objective fact. Leaving aside the amendment for a moment, the question remains: what is happening? We have one year and three months until the directive expires. What is the Department's plan? What will the proposed approach towards those claimants be in one year and three months?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The policy for this is with the Departments of Justice and Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth as to what actions to take. That will be decided by Government. In the Department of Social Protection, we make the necessary payments to the various recipients, whether it is the full payment or the €38.80. Policy for that will be decided by Government. The Minister for Justice spoke to our EU colleagues last week. We are very conscious of that and Government will make a decision on the matter in due course.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The household benefits package includes mainly the so-called "free electricity", which is basically a cash payment to electricity companies on behalf of the recipients. Will the Minister outline how much is now paid per recipient and how has that changed in the past 10 years?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I do not have the figures to hand but I will be happy to provide those details.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Am I correct that despite the soaring cost of energy and electric energy, in particular, the so-called "free electricity" allowance has not increased for a long time?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I think it remains the same. It has not changed in the past number of years.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

We are talking about ten years.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

We have compensated in other areas with lump sum payments for the fuel allowance, for example, as the Deputy knows.. I can give some statistics. The household benefits electricity allowance is €189 million. In 2021, it was €181 million and, in 2022, €189 million, so it has gone up.

In 2013, it was €165 million and it went up to €189 million in 2022. The fuel allowance in 2013 was €228 million; it is now €576 million. We expanded it to the over-70s by changing the income limits. The free television licence was €57 million in 2013; it was €70 million in 2022. The gas allowance was €15 million and is now €22 million, and the household benefits telephone support allowance was €52 million and has gone down to €18 million. I presume that is because there are all sorts of offers and many people use WhatsApp now to reduce their costs. The total in all household benefits in 2013 was €518 million and, in 2022, it was €876 million. The most recent figures I have are for 2022. It is a considerable increase. The estimated cost of the household benefits package in 2024 is €294 million.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The number of recipients has gone up since 2013 because the number of pensioners has gone up.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The latest figure shows there were 523,301 recipients of the household benefits package in December 2023, a 3.3% increase on the number in December 2022.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

What about in 2013? The number of pensioners has gone up considerably.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It has gone up. The Deputy is dead right.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Can we just go back? The person in receipt does not look at hundreds of millions of euro. They would like to know how much they individually get per two months against their bill and how many units of electricity that buys them.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I will get the Deputy a table of that information.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

This used to cover people's electricity bill if they were very careful, particularly living alone. It does not do anything like that anymore. People face big electricity bills. The Minister can say she is giving free fuel-----

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The €300 credit was useful.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is very useful but it was given universally, irrespective of a person's wealth. There is a way of targeting it. It is not perfect because a person could avail of the contributory pension and be very well-off, but taking all pensioners, they tend not to be as well-off as society in general. The €300 was an efficient way of paying it. I grant that and I never want to see it means-tested because it is a total waste of time. One way of targeting a group is through the electricity allowance.

The Minister mentioned the amount paid for television. My memory, which could be faulty, is that they disconnected that. In the old days, they used to pay the licence amount into the television licence, literally euro for euro, for every new person given the free television licence. My memory is it was changed from that to a lump sum.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It was.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am wondering how the lump sum that is paid into the licence is determined.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

We pay it directly to the Department of culture. There is a review of that going on. I do not know much.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Department pays its lump sum. I am curious to know how that compares with the amount it would have to pay if it paid the full licence fee for everybody in receipt of a "free television licence".

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I will have to come back to the Deputy with that figure because I do not have it.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That would be interesting.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a shortfall there. I know that from being on the receiving end of it.

I will bring in Deputy Collins. If Deputy Ó Cuív has another question, he can come back in later.

Deputy Joan Collins

I was trying to find the section to bring this issue up in. It relates to the double payments, Christmas bonuses and that. A neighbour of mine went on jobseeker's allowance in November, but had previously been on supplementary welfare and carer's allowance for looking after his mother. He did not get the Christmas bonus. I submitted a question to the Minister, who reviewed the case and established that he was entitled to the Christmas bonus. I presume that initially, the Department decided he was not entitled to the bonus because he had not been receiving jobseeker's allowance for 312 days or whatever, but he had built up more than that on the other payments he was on. He did not get the double payment last week either so I have put a question in about that. If it is happening to him, I am sure it must be happening to other people. It does not just happen to one person. Is there some way that the Department can view the time a person is actually receiving payments? There definitely seems to be an anomaly around entitlements.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

In fairness, it is complex linking rules across the different schemes. Claimants are meant to be on jobseeker's allowance for 12 months to receive the payment. That is the way it works. On the question of whether there is something we can do, it is going to be quite complex. I encourage anybody who thinks they should have received the payment to contact us. We are happy to look at it and review their situation. That is all I can say to the Deputy. We look at each case on an individual basis. She will appreciate that it is very hard for staff to look at it all. The person in question was receiving payments from a number of different schemes. I take the Deputy's point. Maybe some people do not know to question it. I suppose the message is that if people think they are entitled to the double payment, they should contact the social welfare office to make sure all the different schemes they are on have been taken into consideration.

Deputy Joan Collins

I take the Minister's point, but in this day and age, with technology, the Department should be able to trace the record of a person's payments when they are on different payments. Some of those who are on a very low income and do not get the Christmas bonus or the double payment are not in a position to raise it with their local TD or social welfare office or are not aware that they are entitled to it. It is not fair to leave it on the shoulders of those people. I ask the Minister and the Department to look at ways that can be resolved so that people get the payment automatically.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

There are 90 different schemes across the Department. It would be very difficult to try to connect them. The benefit is automatically paid for the vast majority of people. It is just a matter of processing it. We are talking about millions of payments on a weekly basis. I would not like to tell the Deputy we are going to change it because it would be extremely difficult in terms of our IT systems. However, for those on low incomes, there is always the additional needs payment. They can go to the social welfare office, go through their particular situation and provide that information. If they are entitled to the payment, we will be happy to make that adjustment. I can only say that.

Deputy Joan Collins

I ask the Minister and the Department to look into it and see if something can be done about an automatic entitlement.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I have no problem asking officials to look into it but I will be honest with the Deputy. I doubt there is a lot we can do. There is no harm in asking, and we will certainly do that.

Deputy Joan Collins

I would appreciate it if the Minister could come back to us on that. There has to be some way of dealing with it.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Deputy Collins have any other questions?

Deputy Joan Collins

No, that is it. I thank the staff, as other members have done.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I have three quick questions.

I once again flag the fact that people on the working family payment do not get fuel allowance. It is a peculiar sort of exclusion. Is that something the Department has discussed? People on the working family payment are typically those who have relatively low incomes.

I will also flag an issue that is not the Department's responsibility but it might be able to do something useful about it in correspondence or discussions with, possibly, the Department of communications, or the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan's crowd anyway. SEAI grants are available to people on most social welfare payments except those on the invalidity pension. It is a peculiar oversight. Maybe it is not an oversight and there is a policy reason for it but it does not make an awful lot of sense, to be honest. The Department might usefully raise the matter with the relevant Department. I know Department of Social Protection officials cannot do anything about it but with their expertise in tackling poverty and so on, it might be a useful intervention.

I tabled a question on a matter that was largely in response to the Green Paper, but I see Deputy Farrell also tabled a question on it. It concerns the draft proposals for a new working age payment, which are being referenced a fair bit at present. The Minister is on record as saying that draft proposals would be developed this year. At what stage within the year could we be looking at proposals for the working age payment?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

As the Deputy knows, the fuel allowance is paid to social welfare recipients, such as pensioners, people with disabilities, lone parents and the long-term unemployed, in recognition of their long-term financial dependence on their social welfare payments. When people are on the working family payment, they are working. The fuel allowance is targeted more at those who are not in the workplace.

On invalidity payments and the SEAI grants, we regularly engage with the Department of the relevant Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and are happy to ask why that is and raise the matter as the Deputy raised it.

The Deputy also asked me about the report on the working age payment. We hope to have it at the end of 2024. We are looking at that in respect of the working age payment.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

Will it be in quarter 4?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It will be towards the end of the year or quarter 4 of 2024.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

On free travel, how is the amount the Department pays to both the CIÉ group of companies and private operators, which are also part of that scheme, calculated? How is it worked out how much the Department pays? That is my first question but I have a supplementary.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I understand there are a range of mechanisms to work out how much we pay to the Department of Transport.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Did that change when-----

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Not that I am aware of, no. It has not changed.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

-----the Department of Transport reduced the fares?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

No, it has not changed.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have a third question. There is now a backdoor method, and I have raised parliamentary questions with the Minister about this as it concerns me. More and more buses are full, which is great news. It means we need more buses but it is good that people are patronising them. Even in rural areas, however, buses are full. For journeys on certain private bus services now, to ensure people get onto the bus, they have to pay a booking fee of €10 when booking online. This is to ensure they get a place on the bus. If you are in a rural area with three services a day and you miss the bus, you cannot wait for the next DART or bus to come along. It seems a backdoor method to charge people who are in receipt of free transport. Effectively, they have to pay this €10 every time they take a bus to the nearest major town. It should be written into contracts that a booking fee cannot be charged for the bus. Most people do not care what seat on the bus they sit in but, as I said, they care if they cannot get on the bus at all because it is full.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

That is an issue for the Minister for Transport. Under the free travel scheme, there is no requirement for, or impediment to, transport operators to provide additional services, such as a seat booking service. Some travel operators have introduced an online booking service for customers who wish to guarantee their seat on a particular service. This is a matter for the transport operator and the Department of Transport.

On my end of things, I was glad that as part of budget 2024, I announced an extension of the free travel pass to support people who are medically certified as unable to drive. That will expand access to the free travel scheme to people who have never been able to drive due to a disability. In particular, many representations have been made to me on behalf of those who have epilepsy, as well as drivers who have had a licence and have been deemed medically unable to drive for a period of one year or longer.

I take Deputy Ó Cuív’s point, but that issue is really within the remit of the Department of Transport.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I do not accept that, because the Minister’s Department has the ability to make it a condition of providing the money to the operator for the scheme that they do not charge for a booking. As I said, booking is now not a question one's favourite seat; it is a question of getting on the particular form of public transport at all. The irony is that I do not think Iarnród Éireann charges for booking a seat online if a person has free access to travel. Yet, the bus services do. The private bus services certainly do. In certain cases, if you are travelling 20 km, 30 km or 40 km, the fee is higher than the fare would be if you just got on the bus. This is because the normal booking fee is €10. Some of these are not long-distance, cross-country services. They are shorter services. They are basically commuter services. I therefore cannot see why the Minister’s Department cannot make it a condition of the contract that it will not pay the money if they start charging back-door fees. We have seen with so many free services over the years that the people who provide the service will find a back-door way of charging. This seems to be the thin end of the wedge by certain operators to create a charging system for people who are in receipt of free travel. I think it is wrong and it should be stamped out.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I hear what the Deputy is saying. It is probably more a matter for the Minister for Transport, but I am happy to take a look at it. I take the point the Deputy is making. I thought the fact that we had extended the free travel pass would be a good addition for many people.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I have to say that it is totally welcome. We made the recommendation. One group in particular, which represented people with epilepsy, was before the committee, so we widened our recommendation. We are absolutely delighted about that. I think everybody in the committee would recognise that it was a major step forward that everybody who is disqualified from driving due to medical reasons would get free travel. That will be of great assistance to those people. I am sorry if I was if I did not give the Minister due credit for it, because I absolutely do give her credit. It is a massive move forward for those people.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire

I will also say that it was a useful and positive intervention in the budget. I acknowledge that. Some members of this committee recommended it and it will make a significant difference.

One final point occurred to me there, and this is a slightly unusual one. I do not totally understand the logic of it myself. I refer to the Christmas and the spring bonus for the illness benefit. It was communicated publicly that a person had to be on it for 12 months in order to receive the bonus. I had a constituent who was on it for 12 months and maybe some light can be thrown on this. In a way that was not advertised widely, she was refused both payments because she did not have enough claim days. They needed to have 312 claim days prior to 27 November, or 360 claim days prior to 21 January. She was approximately 50 days short of the adequate number of claim days. She did have the paid contributions; she had 104 paid contributions. She was on illness benefit for 12 months, so it does not seem to be quite fair to me. It certainly does not seem consistent with the message that had been communicated in relation to illness benefit claimants and both bonuses. It seems a bit illogical to me, but maybe light can be cast on it.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I am happy to get the details from the Deputy on that specific case and we will look at it, if that is okay. We will do that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister. We will now move to the Social Insurance Fund. Are there any questions?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

My first question is the big one. I see there was a surplus of approximately €4 billion in the Social Insurance Fund. Is that correct? Will the Minister tell us if that was better than was expected in last year's Estimate? I think it was €3.5 billion last year and €4 billion this year. Was the outturn last year better than had been forecast in terms of the surplus? What is the cumulative surplus of the Social Insurance Fund at the moment?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I thank the Deputy. I have a note here that states the Estimate in 2023 was €3.2 billion and the actual amount was €3.4 billion. It looks as if it outperformed expectations, and I am glad it did. If we look back at the projections for all the years, it is doing an awful lot better than any of the experts told me it would. I have noticed that myself. It is doing an awful lot better.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

If we keep employment going-----

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

-----and the economy growing, the Social Insurance Fund grows. If it grows, it means that things we were told were totally unaffordable become affordable. At this stage, will the Minister give us the total accumulated surplus of the Social Insurance Fund?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

It is €5.5 billion.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

That is after taking the absolutely seismic shocks of the downturn between 2008 and 2011 and the Covid-19 pandemic.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

That is the case. There were actuarial reviews, as the Deputy knows, on many occasions that painted a very bleak picture. Now is the time to start to make provision because there is no doubt but that our demographics are changing. Our population is getting older and more people are reliant on pensions. That is why I will be bringing through legislation - and I have been through this with the Deputy - for small increases in PRSI. Now is the time to do that when we are at full employment and all of that. I am told the surplus is cyclical and the deficit will be structural from 2030. It is projected that it is going to be in deficit. However, we are doing well at the moment and now is the time we have decided to make those small increases along with the other changes we have made to the State pension to provide for flexibility and the total contributions approach. We have also made a number of other changes. We look at the situation every five years. Things change and the projections we get are not always correct. We need to deal with real data because the situation has changed. When I look back to what the actuarial reviews were stating in 2015 and 2019, the situation is different. I am assured, of course,-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Minister is assured they are still right.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

-----that they are right. When we look back, they were not always right.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Those 2015 and 2019 projections did not anticipate Covid-19.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

They did not. We need to add Covid.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It hit the fund. Notwithstanding that, we are in quite a good position.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The Government did have to top it up at one stage.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

When it is topped up, it is repaid from the top up. Is that case?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Pardon?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The Social Insurance Fund is normally topped up from the Department of Finance, if I remember rightly. If we look at the Government Estimates, that Department gives a loan and is repaid over time. Does that Department just give cash injections?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Only once, apparently, was there a transfer from the SIF to the Vote but that happened only once. It was not-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am not saying it that way; I am saying that the Government had loaned money previously to the SIF but it was paid back. If we look at the Exchequer-----

An Cathaoirleach

I do not think that is correct. There was a substantial Vote put into it in the last decade because there was a deficit as a result of the economic crash and there was insufficient funds. To the best of my knowledge, that has not gone the other way since.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

We can get a table of the transfers.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

What is interesting is to see the long-term picture here and how that performs because nobody can deny the fact that people are living longer. There are some mitigating factors given that more people work after 66, so they might even be getting a State pension but are also paying tax. There are a lot of complications. However, what is interesting to do is to track performance versus the projections and see is there consistently an overcaution, particularly if you leave out Covid as you cannot make a projection based on that. It is impossible to predict.

An Cathaoirleach

In fairness, the committee identified that when it did its review of the Pensions Commission report where participation rates were ignored, that is, participation rates significantly improving on a incremental basis. An increase in ten percentage points over the next 30 years will make a dramatic difference on the potential SIF deficit. I had indicated to the Minister's Department that I was going to raise a follow-up issue to the one we raised regarding the Estimate here last November. This was the Estimate that was presented to us last November and what was concerning was a 7% increase in administration costs on the SIF. I know the Department has provided us with an explanation for that. The committee has sought the advice of the Parliamentary Budget Office which has produced a paper for us and which we shared with the Department. Late last night we got further clarification back from the Department. We have not had the opportunity to engage with the Parliamentary Budget Office on that. The context of this is that we see from the Estimate in front of us that the income earned from surplus is projected in 2024 to increase by 299% so it is important that we protect that surplus in the Social Insurance Fund. I raised concerns regarding the administration cost which seemed to be out of kilter.

Will the Minister elaborate on what was driving the additional administration costs within the Social Insurance Fund? It seems that medical costs have been a big issue in this and are a considerable element of the social insurance administration costs. We know there has been a rising spend on disability across the Department of Social Protection, and the Parliamentary Budget Office has flagged that with our committee as well. This is obviously leading to an increase in medical assessment costs. Will the Minister gives us an indication of what is happening regarding those increases and how big a demand or a pressure this is putting on those administration costs?

The second thing is that the calculation of pension entitlements has become far more complex as well. Traditionally, we had contributions domestically and probably from the United Kingdom, whereas today there can be a very mixed record contribution of both PRSI contributions in this country, social insurance contributions in other EU member states and outside the European Union in the United Kingdom as well, which adds to the complexity of the calculation.

Last week, the Minister signed a statutory instrument relating to the long-term carers credit which, again, will add to the complexity of that. We want to acknowledge the Minister's work in extending those credits to long-term carers. However, we are trying to get an indication or idea of what is actually driving the administration costs within the Social Insurance Fund. We know that 50% of those relate to staffing costs which is pretty much standard across the Department. Can the Minister provide us with some insight into what is driving this level of change?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

I take that point. It is important that we drill down and find out exactly why these costs are increasing. There is a legislative basis for the charges to the SIF that is set out in the Social Welfare Act. The specific mechanism used to calculate the amount charged as appropriations-in-aid to the Vote is approved by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I presume that is on the process and that everything is above board. The cost ratio is what the Chair is interested in looking at.

There has been an increase in the pension contributions and that drives up the administration costs on the SIF. There has been an increase in the medical costs. There was an overspend of €6 million in 2023 against the provisional outturn of €43.5 million. The medical certification is demand led so any variances in any illnesses in the general population impact the level of demand for certificates. Some €37.5 million was the original in the 2023 budget. It was increased by €6 million and it will come out at €43.5 million. Calculating this is a complex process, as I understand from speaking to the officials. I think what the Chair wants, which is right, is the different cost of providing it. I think we can do that.

Explaining how it is worked out is complex but I do not see any reason we cannot get a list of the different costs relative to the different things we do in the SIF, whether pensions, medical certificates or whatever else. That is a fair question. I will ask my officials and we will provide more detail on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Could it be provided over time?

Deputy Heather Humphreys

Yes, and over the increase in the different areas. That is fair enough.

An Cathaoirleach

We will get it over a period of a number of years so we get a picture of what is happening with it. It is an issue. While the sums involved are small in the overall budget of the Department, even with compound interest, by 2070 a very small change here could have a significant impact on what is in the Social Insurance Fund as we hit some of the big demands in relation to pension claims from 2050 on into 2070. It is important these are looked at and now is the time to look at them and not when they are going to cause a problem down the road.

I thank the Minister’s officials for engaging with us on this issue and for the work put into the Estimate before us. I also thank the officials on the ground and in the various offices around the country for their ongoing engagement with Members of the Oireachtas and with this particular committee.

Is there any outstanding question on the Vote? As there is not, I thank the Minister for giving us the opportunity to engage with her on this.

We will suspend the meeting for five minutes before the committee considers the Revised Estimates with the Minister for Rural and Community Development.