Select Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 19 Oct 2022

National Cultural Institutions (National Concert Hall) (Amendment) Bill 2022: Committee Stage

Chairman

You are all very welcome on this damp and windy day. Apologies have been received from Deputy Mythen. The meeting has been convened to consider Committee Stage of the National Cultural Institutions (National Concert Hall) (Amendment) Bill 2022. I welcome the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, and her team of officials. We will now proceed with consideration of the Bill. As the Minister is present, officials should not speak in public session.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I ask members to identify themselves when contributing via Microsoft Teams for the benefit of the Debates Office staff preparing the Official Report, to mute their microphones when not contributing in order to reduce background noise and feedback and to use the raise-hand function if they wish to contribute. I also ask everyone to ensure their phones are on silent mode or, better again, switched off.

I ask the Minister to kick off the debate by giving her opening statement.

Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Catherine Martin)

Gabhaim buíochas le baill an choiste as an gcuireadh a bheith ina dteannta. I thank committee members for the invitation to join them today.

The purpose of the Bill is to put the necessary legal framework in place to complete the transfer of the National Symphony Orchestra, NSO, and choirs from RTÉ to the National Concert Hall, NCH. It will cement the role of the NSO within the NCH, formalising and enhancing the relationship that has been in place since the establishment of the concert hall in 1981.

Although largely technical in nature, the Bill marks an important step in the journey the orchestra, the concert hall, RTÉ, my colleagues and I have been on for the past number of years. It is divided into four parts with Part 1 dealing with general provisions, such as the Short Title and definitions of terms in the Bill. Part 2 provides for the transfer of functions, staff, property and liabilities relating to the orchestra and choirs from RTÉ to the National Concert Hall. These provisions date from the transfer day, 24 January 2022. It does so by amending the National Cultural Institutions (National Concert Hall) Act 2015. Part 3 provides for the integration of the orchestra and choirs into the everyday operation of the NCH by adding a new function for the maintenance and operation of an orchestra and choir to the functions of the concert hall. It also provides for an increase in the membership of the board from eight to nine members. The legislation requires this additional board member to have experience of and expertise in the development of orchestras. The final Part replaces RTÉ’s previous function to manage orchestras and choirs with the function of managing a concert orchestra only. I look forward to going through these in more detail.

The legislation builds on the commitment of everyone involved to build a stronger orchestra within a dedicated national cultural institution for music. Critically, the Bill provides a new function for the concert hall dedicated to the development and maintenance of the orchestra. It also places the orchestra at the centre of the concert hall’s corporate governance arrangements by providing for a new board member with orchestral expertise and experience.

In some ways, the Bill represents the end of one journey – the transfer of the orchestra and choirs – but it is also the first step in a much more important journey as we now turn our minds to building and enhancing the symphony orchestra and concert hall to ensure they are fit for purpose in an evolving environment and are at the heart of music in Ireland for generations to come. The challenge of the past few years has shown us the immeasurable value of music and live performance. It has certainly cemented my view of the value of the orchestra and concert hall both at the heart of classical music in Ireland and as a place for people to come together and enjoy a shared musical experience. Mar a dúirt an tUachtarán ag Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann i mí Iúil:

Lig dúinn ceiliúradh a dhéanamh ar cheol ... na hÉireann i ngach cruth a thagann sé, agus lig dúinn athcheangail a dhéanamh leis an gceol, agus an tábhacht atá ag baint le taispeántas beo agus muid ag ceiliúradh … le chéile.

Music is just one part of the wider cultural offering of our national cultural institutions. In that context, I have tabled three amendments, the purpose of which is to raise the limit of the State’s indemnity for loans of artworks and cultural objects from outside the State, which is required for visiting exhibitions. These amendments are critical to ensuring our pre-eminent cultural institutions, such as the National Gallery and Irish Museum of Modern Art, IMMA, continue to be able to receive high-value, international loans and exhibitions. The success of the recent Freud exhibition at IMMA shows the value the public place on having works of such international importance shown here, as well as raising our profile internationally to stand with other national galleries and institutions. Under the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997, the aggregate amount on liability undertakings with respect to State indemnity is limited to €190 million. This figure is no longer fit for purpose as it does not account for the significant appreciation in the monetary value of artworks and other cultural artefacts, nor the increase in opportunities for significant arts and cultural exhibitions to visit Ireland since the establishment of the Act 25 years ago. I, therefore, propose to increase this limit to €1.6 billion.

With the provision of State indemnity, our cultural institutions can meet the essential requirements of prominent international institutions and private collectors, thus making Ireland a more attractive candidate for high profile exhibitions. This will increase the cultural offering available to the public.

I thank members for their time, and I look forward to their consideration of the Bill and these three amendments.

SECTION 1

Question proposed: “That section 1 stand part of the Bill.”

Deputy Imelda Munster

The transfer was given effect in January. Does the Minister have a date for the transfer in the context of this Bill? When is it intended to give this effect from?

Deputy Catherine Martin

The administrative transfer took place in January 2022, and it will take effect once this Bill is enacted.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Will that be straightaway?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Great. I thank the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 2

Chairman

Amendments Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, are related and will be discussed together.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 5, between lines 29 and 30, to insert the following:

“ “Act of 1997” means the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997;”.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The Bill refers to the titles of the groups, namely, the RTÉ Philharmonic Choir, the RTÉ Cór na nÓg and the RTÉ Cór Linn, and the RTÉ National Symphony Orchestra. These have not existed for months. Do any of these groups have legal personalities in legislation or is this the first time they are being mentioned in law? If this is the case, should the focus not be on their new titles?

Deputy Catherine Martin

They are referred to in the 2015 Act, and this is just an additional definition for the purposes of the amendment.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Great. Regarding these new titles, such as the RTÉ National Symphony Orchestra, for example, should these names not be without "RTÉ"?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is the names on the transfer day that are being referred to.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Right.

Deputy Catherine Martin

The advice from the Parliamentary Counsel is that it is provided for on transfer.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I ask just because it is still contained in the Bill. There are also references to the RTÉ Philharmonic Choir, the RTÉ Cór na nÓg and the RTÉ Cór Linn.

Deputy Catherine Martin

This is addressed by the new function and this changes that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is grand if it is the case.

Chairman

Would the Minister like to speak to amendments Nos. 2 and 3, because we are taking them as a group?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Is this concerning Part 4?

Chairman

No, in section 2.

Deputy Catherine Martin

In section 2, amendment No. 2 is to insert:

In page 9, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following:

“PART 4

AMENDMENT OF ACT OF 1997

Amendment of section 44 of Act of 1997

14. Section 44 of the Act of 1997 is amended in subsection (1) by the substitution of ‘€1,600,000,000’ for ‘£150,000,000’.”.

The purpose of these amendments is to raise the limit of the State’s indemnity for loans of artworks and cultural objects from outside the State that is required for visiting exhibitions. As things currently stand, under the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997, the aggregate amount on liability undertakings with respect to State indemnity shall not exceed €190 million or IR£150 million. This figure is no longer fit for purpose, as I said in my opening statement, as it does not account for the significant appreciation in the monetary value of artworks and other cultural artefacts, nor for the increase in opportunities for significant arts and cultural exhibitions to visit Ireland, since the establishment of the Act 25 years ago.

The indemnity ceiling was previously temporarily amended by means of statutory instrument. SI 86/2016 raised the limit to €1.5 billion for five years, primarily to accommodate the five-year loan of the Freud collection to IMMA and the overlap of significant exhibitions at the National Gallery of Ireland. However, that temporary increase expired on 31 October 2021 and the limit has since reverted to the original limit of €190 million set out in 1997. This constrained the planning of international exhibitions as the total value of indemnities on works from outside the State on loan to our institutions cannot exceed €190 million.

Currently, the alternative for our cultural institutions is to arrange for commercial insurance, a significant additional overhead. Such insurance can cost hundreds of thousands of euro per exhibition. The provision of a general permanent increase in the statutory indemnity limit under the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997 is not merely a technical amendment but in accord with policy on risk management relating to the public finances. The approval of the Government was required and was granted at its meeting on 28 June 2022. I am, therefore, seeking to revise the ceiling to a limit of €1.6 billion. The increased figure has been calculated based on the increased values of artworks and artefacts, and the anticipated number of incoming international high value loans planned in the State over the next five years.

The increased limit would apply to works from outside the State on loan to the national cultural institutions, the Hugh Lane Gallery, the Hunt Museum and the Royal Irish Academy. With the provision of State indemnity, our cultural institutions can meet the essential requirements of prominent international institutions and private collectors – thus making Ireland a more attractive candidate for high profile exhibitions. This will increase the cultural offering available to the Irish public.

Finally, it should be noted that the proposal to increase the ceiling to €1.6 billion has been sanctioned by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I hope the committee will agree that this is a necessary intervention, which will ensure the continued success of programming at our cultural institutions and provide an even greater variety of cultural experiences for the Irish people.

Amendment No. 3 to the Title is to insert the following:

In page 5, between lines 12 and 13, to delete all words from and including “2015;” in line 12 down to and including “matter.” in line 13 and substitute the following:

“2015; to increase the aggregate amount of liability in respect of undertakings given for cultural objects on loan from a person resident outside the State and, for that purpose to amend the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997; to make certain changes to the objects of RTÉ and, for that purpose to amend the Broadcasting Act 2009; and to provide for related matters.”.

This amendment contains the changes required to the Long Title so that this title also reflects the amendments proposed, namely, amendments Nos. 1 and 2, to raise the limit of the State’s indemnity for loans of artworks and cultural objects from outside the State.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 2, as amended, agreed to.

Section 3 agreed to.

SECTION 4

Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Imelda Munster

This section refers to functions transferring on a date that has already passed. I am curious about whether there is legal advice concerning possible ramifications in this regard. I also wonder if this could set a precedent whereby State bodies can transfer functions between themselves prior to relevant legislation being passed or changed and something can be deemed legal after the fact.

Legally, would there be ramifications in that regard?

Deputy Catherine Martin

That administrative transfer was done under sections 7 and 9 of the 2015 Act so it was not ultra vires. That should ease Deputy Munster's concerns.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is grand.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 5

Question proposed: "That section 5 stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Imelda Munster

I have a question about the staff affected by the transfer. What is the number of staff either lost by RTÉ or gained by the National Concert Hall? What is the effect on their pensions, whether the RTÉ defined contribution scheme or the various pensions RTÉ has transferring to the public service scheme? I am wondering because there is the provision about conditions not being any worse than at RTÉ, which is not extended to the staff's pensions. Does that mean their pensions will be worse?

Deputy Catherine Martin

This section puts in place the appropriate safeguards for the transfer of staff from RTÉ to the concert hall. The staff are to be transferred with the terms and conditions they enjoyed at RTÉ. Under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations, or TUPE regulations, however, such terms and conditions do not include pensions. The Department engaged the services of a financial consultant in 2021 to advise on the implications of the transfer for transferring employees' pensions and remuneration. The consultant met with the transferring staff one to one. Consultation also took place through the oversight and working groups. Representatives from RTÉ, the concert hall, the National Symphony Orchestra, NSO, choirs and the unions were in attendance at the meetings to advance this process. All practical issues relating to the transfer, including terms and conditions and pension entitlements, were resolved following an extensive process of engagement with staff and staff representatives. A similar provision to subsections (1) and (2) is included in section 32 of the National Cultural Institutions (National Concert Hall) Act 2015, which established the concert hall as a national venue for performance, appreciation and enjoyment of music. All this was done on the basis of advice from the Attorney General and is essentially an avoidance-of-doubt measure. There is no impact on pensions. Very detailed work went into ensuring that none of the individuals' pensions would be affected.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Did neither the unions nor the staff at that stage flag concerns that the pensions would be worse?

Chairman

We engaged with them extensively and all seemed to be satisfied with this.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If that is the case, that is grand.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 6 to 10, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 11

Question proposed: "That section 11 stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Imelda Munster

I have a simple, straightforward question. There is reference here to "a" choir when three choirs are being transferred. Is that-----

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is a drafting issue. This section provides a statutory basis for National Concert Hall management of the NSO and choirs, so that is addressed.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 12 and 13 agreed to.

NEW SECTION

Deputy Catherine Martin

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 9, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following:

“PART 4

AMENDMENT OF ACT OF 1997

Amendment of section 44 of Act of 1997

14. Section 44 of the Act of 1997 is amended in subsection (1) by the substitution of “€1,600,000,000” for “£150,000,000”.”.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Other cultural performing groups are included in the legislation. Who or what are they, does the Minister know?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I think that is really just to give flexibility to choose the concert hall. That is why those groups are not named. It just states "other".

Deputy Imelda Munster

Fair enough. Yes, it is just clearer.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 14 agreed to.

TITLE

Deputy Catherine Martin

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 5, lines 12 and 13, to delete all words from and including “2015;” in line 12 down to and including “matters.” in line 13 and substitute the following:

“2015; to increase the aggregate amount of liability in respect of undertakings given for cultural objects on loan from a person resident outside the State and, for that purpose to amend the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997; to make certain changes to the objects of RTÉ and, for that purpose to amend the Broadcasting Act 2009; and to provide for related matters.”.

Amendment agreed to.

Title, as amended, agreed to.

Chairman

Pursuant to Standing Order 187(3), the clerk to the committee will report specially to the Dáil that the committee has amended the Title. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Bill reported with amendments.

Chairman

Before we conclude, does the Minister wish to make any closing remarks?

Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Catherine Martin)

I thank Deputies again for their engagement. My officials have taken note of the matters raised, which the Department will consider. As I have outlined, this is a technical Bill that provides for the transfer of functions from RTÉ to the National Concert Hall and provides that legislative underpinning for the transfer of the NSO and choirs from RTÉ to the concert hall. As I think I said earlier, the Bill presents a important step forward in the journey of both the orchestra and the concert hall and a critical part of the concert hall's ambitious vision for the development of symphonic music, with the restored symphony orchestra taking its place in a 21st-century concert hall. I look forward to seeing the Bill make steady progress through the next Stages.

Chairman

I thank the Minister and her officials for being with us. My colleagues and I are delighted to have had them here and to have this piece of work done.