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Select Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 2022

Vote 35 - Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Supplementary)

We will now proceed to our consideration of the 2022 Supplementary Estimate of Vote 33. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, and their officials to the meeting and thank them for being here with us. As the Minister is present, I remind officials that they should not speak during the session.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to do so will be asked to leave the meeting.

I ask members to identify themselves when contributing via Microsoft Teams for the benefit of the Debates Office staff preparing the Official Report, to mute their microphones when not contributing in order to reduce background noise and feedback and to use the raise-hand function if they wish to contribute. I also ask everyone to ensure their phones are on silent mode or, better again, switched off.

I also welcome Deputy Ó Snodaigh who is here with us today.

We will begin with the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. I ask the Minister to present her opening statement. The floor is hers.

Tá áthas orm a bheith anseo inniu chun moladh maidir le meastachán forlíontach do mo Roinnse a chur i láthair. D’úsáidfí an maoiniú seo go príomha chun fóirdheontas a thabhairt do chostais mhéadaithe fóntais agus mhaireachtála d’eagraíochtaí nach féidir leo leas a bhaint as tacaíochtaí cothrománacha eile atá á dtairiscint ag an Rialtas faoi láthair. Luaigh an tAire Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe, An Teachta Michael McGrath, na hábhair bhreise seo agus é ag labhairt ar Lá an Bhuiséid. Ó shin i leith, tá m’oifigigh agus mé féin ag obair leis an Roinn sin chun bailchríoch a chur ar ghnéithe teicniúla na tacaíochta breise.

The proposed 2022 Supplementary Estimate totals €53.61 million, resulting in a 2022 Revised Estimate total for my Department of €1.27603 billion. This comprises €35 million for the sports programme area, about which my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, will address the committee in detail. It also provides €15 million for RTÉ in line with the recommendations of the Future of Media Commission report. The proposed additional allocation of €15 million to RTÉ is to give effect to the Commission's recommendation, which was informed by the Commission's detailed examination of RTÉ’s financial situation and interim funding requirements.

In terms of the culture and arts area, it is a well-established principle of public finance that, where possible, the requirement for additional support be first met within a Department's existing allocation, before seeking further funding to the Vote. Accordingly, I have reallocated savings within the Culture and Arts programme area to address the current operational pressures for the national cultural institutions, Screen Ireland, other cultural bodies supported by the Department and bodies supported through the Arts Council. This will be achieved by technical supplementary, details of which are contained in the committee's brief today.

In summary, €15.54 million will be reallocated from savings in the basic income for the arts and live entertainment support areas. These savings arise in the basic income for the arts as it was rolled out later than anticipated due to the high volume of applications, with over 9,000 applications requiring review and assessment.

I am happy to report that payments began in October and it is expected that up to €12 million will be paid to artists under this scheme by year-end. In the live entertainment area, savings arise due to the full reopening of the live entertainment sector on 22 January, sooner than anticipated, which allowed for 100% capacity for live events, with a removal of the requirement for vaccination or recovery certificates for access to venues and the reopening of nightclubs. This significantly changed context and provided the sector with an opportunity to generate box-office income. Accordingly, many grantees submitted revised and adjusted drawdown requests yielding savings under certain schemes. It should be noted that the measures put in place to support stakeholders in the live entertainment sector this year followed extensive consultation on the supports required and all eligible demands under those schemes was met in 2022.

Additional funding will be provided to address increased utility costs in the cultural area as follows: €8.76 million in respect of cultural bodies under the aegis of the Department, spread across the various relevant subheads; €5 million in respect of arts and culture organisations to be administered by the Arts Council; and €1.78 million in respect of cultural organisations, including a number of regional museums, which are supported directly by the Department such as Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, the Foynes Flying Boat Museum, the National Print Museum, the Cork Butter Museum, and the Hunt Museum. This additional funding will be provided from savings within the culture and arts programme in 2022 from subheads B16, €12 million, and B17, €3.54 million.

As I mentioned earlier, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, will address the committee on the additional allocation for sport.

The remaining €3.61 million is accounted for in the context of increased pay across my Department and agencies arising from the Building Momentum public sector pay agreement.

There is no direct request for additional funding in this Supplementary Estimate request in respect of the tourism programme in my Vote as it is anticipated that the universal supports to be provided under the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, will address the needs of this sector.

The world has been impacted by global challenges, including the invasion of Ukraine, global inflation, and climate change. The Government has recognised the impact of the current situation through a number of horizontal measures designed specifically to protect the most vulnerable in our society as we face into the winter. There are also increased measures to support business and industry. Bodies supported under the cultural and sporting programme areas of my Department cannot avail of most of these supports, but given their direct and ancillary benefits to employment and the economy, physical and mental health and well-being, societal development and cohesion, it is appropriate for Government to support organisations in these areas. Let us not forget that during the worst of the pandemic, culture, sport, and media played a particular vital role in helping us find joy in the darker times.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as éisteacht linn agus labhróidh mo chomhghleacaí, an tAire Stáit, an Teachta Chambers, anois maidir leis an maoiniú breise don spórt.

Tá áthas orm sonraí a thabhairt faoi €35 milliún breise mar mheastachán forlíontach don chlár spóirt in 2022. Chabhródh an maoiniú seo le costais fhóntais agus mhaireachtála méadaithe a mhaolú do chumainn agus eagraíochtaí spóirt. Tá go leor de na heagraíochtaí seo ag brath ar oibrithe deonacha chun oibríochtaí a chothabháil.

Increased energy costs are a major concern for sporting organisations and sporting facilities now that we are in the throes of winter and there is increased demand for indoor facilities, heat, light etc. Erratic price fluctuations by power suppliers also exacerbate an already difficult situation for budget forecasting, setting rates etc.

I am therefore delighted that €35 million is being made available in the current year to help alleviate the impact of increased energy costs for sports clubs and organisations with a view to ensuring that everyone can continue to enjoy the benefits of sport and physical activity over the winter months.

The purpose of this additional funding is to support sporting organisations with the rising energy costs associated with the provision of sport, for example, around increased indoor activity and the provision of outdoor floodlighting.

The primary target of the funding support is our sports clubs with dedicated facilities. The impact of the pandemic continues to be a challenge for many sporting clubs and bodies with the financial impacts from lost spectator revenue still an issue and in some instances, reduced membership and volunteer numbers.

As Minister of State with responsibility for sport, I am determined to support programmes and initiatives to ensure the long-term sustainability of club structures for the health and well-being of the nation.

The sports energy support scheme will be run by Sport Ireland and the funding will be distributed through the national governing bodies of sport in a similar manner to the suite of Covid supports provided to the sports sector throughout the past two years.

This funding will allow Sport Ireland to assist those sporting bodies and clubs which are in greatest need, as we strive to ensure that our sporting sector is supported at every level across the country.

Cuireadh caiteachas €105.8 milliún ar fáil cheana féin do Spórt Éireann i Meastachán Athbhreithnithe 2022, agus ciallaíonn sé seo, mar sin, gur leithdháileadh €140 milliún ar an iomlán do Spórt Éireann chun tacú leis an earnáil spóirt in 2022.

I thank the Minister and Minister of State for those comprehensive outlines in respect of their Department.

I will not delay the Ministers too long with my questions. These are questions I have asked in the past without having the exact figure. It is welcome that some funding is being repurposed although not fully in the way I wished and that there is also a recognition of particular problems that sports clubs and organisations have because they are non-funded. They are not businesses and have specific problems covering rising energy costs. It also raises further questions about their sustainability into the future and how a different model to fund sports clubs, in particular those which have high energy costs such as floodlights, can be managed that in the future. Can more be done to ensure that when lighting is being put in, we try to get in place solar panels, or similar, or perhaps a large battery area so that they can rely more on the sun, a small wind energy generator or something in the future?

While it is good that the funding has been found to alleviate that impact, we do not know where energy costs will go in the future on this island. We are an island and at the moment are dependent on gas and oil from abroad. I hope that will form part of any future sports capital grants. I have made the same request for that to be a central element of large local authority building projects.

How will clubs be able to avail of this? Is there a separate application process? Will there be a quick turnaround? It is a big amount of money for clubs. In recent weeks, a number of clubs have asked me whether there is a fund there. They are eager. They can send in the bills they have got in the post or by email already. I will allow the Minister of State to answer that first and then I may have some further questions.

On the Deputy's first point, I agree that we need to ensure sustainability is a key focus in the sports capital investment we make. That is why in the most recent round, the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and I rewarded clubs with sustainable applications. It was part of the scoring criteria, which have since been published. In the most recent round, many clubs changed their floodlighting from the traditional lighting to LED lights. Some bought the more sustainable energy systems and that was allowed for within sports capital programme. The further iteration early next year will have a continued focus on that. Ensuring that clubs can continue to invest in the sustainable facilities through lighting or elsewhere is important. We are keen to support that as well as working with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, on what else can be provided from its perspective to support clubs and make investment more sustainable.

The application process is open at present. We advertised it last week and all governing bodies have communicated to their clubs outlining the process requiring clubs to submit their cost increases by providing a comparison of their current costs with 2019. That will be collated and put together by all the governing bodies.

They are going to collate that and submit the combined demand within their sport to Sport Ireland, which will then assess the level of demand and disburse the majority of the €35 million towards the end of December. We expect that to reach clubs early next year. We are keen to ensure that the clubs and grassroots see benefits quickly. We want that money to hit their accounts at a time when they need to keep their lights on to support grassroots participation in sport. That is the broad framework. Many clubs are submitting their changed bills at present. Each governing body has communicated the specific mechanism they require within their own sport. That collation will happen. Sport Ireland will then assess the combined requests. That is how the process is working.

I thank the Minister of State. It is good that there is a fast turnaround. What happens in the case of dual clubs? In many clubs, several sports are being played within the same complex and the sports organisations often share the bills for the same floodlights. Is it the host sporting organisation that applies in such circumstances?

We will be flexible in those situations. Sport Ireland will work through that. Cases involving a single club will be more straightforward. For clubs that are local authority based, the local authority gets a separate allocation through the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. Where facilities are shared, the allocation will be based on the combined demand. The net point is that facilities will get energy support. That is what we are keen to do.

The following may not be a question for today's meeting but-----

A portion of the €35 million will be kept aside to deal with certain anomalies that might arise. There will be more complex club or community structures which might not fit within a national governing body, NGB, arrangement. Community pool facilities, for example, may not have any relationship with an NGB. We are keen to ensure those facilities are maintained. The main thing is to protect the community sporting sector that does not currently benefit from the temporary business support scheme, TBESS. The Minister, Deputy Martin, can speak to that point as it relates to the arts and culture sector. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, is dealing with the broader community sector. We will ensure those sectors get a buffer of support in the period ahead. That is what we are keen to ensure.

My follow-on question does not relate directly to these Estimates. There must be some type of fund now or in the future to help those who are retrofitting their clubhouses and dressing rooms, and, as the Minister of State mentioned, introducing LED lights. Clubs with floodlights might not have the necessary funding to retrofit but if they did, it would be a saving in the long term. How can we encourage them to do so? Perhaps grants can be made available in the future. Such items may not fall under the sports capital grant because------

They do. A club that is replacing lights qualifies.

I am talking about the top part.

Does the Deputy mean the cost of the actual lights?

Yes. It is a smaller cost.

We will be opening a new round of applications. We will engage further with the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. That is not only a matter for the subhead for capital in our Department. There are broader responsibilities around grants to ensure there is a considerable amount of building support available to avail of the potential for microgeneration, roofs, etc. There is potential for the sport system to contribute to a reduction in demand and to become more sustainable. We are keen to build on that. It is a cross-departmental theme. As a Department, we are keen to meet our climate obligations.

My remaining questions relate mainly to the arts, live performance and broadcasting. I also have a question about funding for the Irish language and the Gaeltacht, to which I will return at the end.

There was an allocation of €25 million for the basic income for artists scheme. Much of the savings from that scheme have now been repurposed. A question arose last week and I think €12 million in savings is the relevant figure. The basic income for artists scheme did not kick in as scheduled and I expected the saving to be larger, given the delay. I have no problem with any of the areas on which the scheme is focused but the basic income for artists and the live performance supports were originally intended for performing artists and that section of the arts society. Most of the repurposed funding is going to cultural bodies, including Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, Foynes Flying Boat and Maritime Museum and the National Print Museum. All of those institutions require the extra money. The problem is that I would have expected the savings from the basic income for artists scheme to go specifically to artists through a hardship programme. Some artists who applied for the scheme did not benefit from it and have additional needs, especially considering the climate we are in and the increase in the cost of living.

As I outlined earlier, the repurposing of those savings of €12 million is a result of enormous demand and our determination to ensure the scheme will work and will be accepted by the sector. The savings from the scheme will benefit artists. Among the purposes for which the savings are being applied is the payment of €5 million to the Arts Council, which will offer supports to organisations that received support under strategic funding, arts grant funding or arts centre funding in 2022. The operation of these organisations is a critical support for artists and this funding will mean that resources which would otherwise have been diverted into meeting increased energy costs will now be available to support artists to make work and to present that work to audiences. Further savings will be applied to meet the needs of national cultural institutions to support regional museums and organisations such as Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann which play such an important role in nurturing and promoting our traditional arts.

Subhead B17 refers to live entertainment supports. In 2021, almost €54 million was awarded in grants to support the live entertainment sector as a targeted response to the Covid-19 restrictions which had obvious impact of stopping performers from performing. A further €50 million was provided for the live performance sector in 2022. That funding, along with a suite of measures, was designed to support the recovery of the sector as it fully reopened for live performance. These supports benefit from a specific state aid derogation for measures to deal with the pandemic which ended earlier this year. As with the other pandemic-related supports, these schemes will conclude this year as the crisis period has passed. Support for the arts and culture sector will continue to be provided by the Arts Council, the statutory body responsible for supporting the arts. That funding remains at a record level of €130 million for 2023.

We will continue to engage, as we have done, with a broad range of stakeholders across the arts, culture and live entertainment sectors, including those represented on the live entertainment stakeholder forum, to understand the issues facing the industry. We are committed to continuing engagement with artists.

I thank the Minister. The fact that 9,000 people applied for the basic income for artists suggests the desire to have that basic income. It also indicates the number of people who are struggling.

That is why I had assumed the full amount of the savings from a scheme set out for that would have gone directly to the funding of some type of hardship scheme. Given the council or the Department already had the assessment of their means and everything else, it could have been repurposed in a one-off grant to many of those. That is not to take away from all the organisations to which the Minister has committed to giving additional moneys to help them through the cost-of living crisis and with fuel costs in particular. I do not believe the €12 million from the €15 million scheme will make its way back to the artist directly. Some will be going on administrative costs and some on overheads but not on the overheads of the individual artists, in the main.

I may have said this to the Deputy before on the basic income, but although the full €25 million for it was not spent this year, it is absolutely guaranteed that it is a €105 million programme over three years. It is therefore absolutely ring-fenced. To reassure the Deputy and members, the savings in relation to live entertainment were as a result of the recovery and did not arise as part of an attempt to reduce funding for the sector under any circumstances whatsoever. All applicants eligible under the requirements of each scheme were offered grants in 2022. The return to normal operating conditions allowed the sector an opportunity to generate box office income that in turn reduced the need for State supports. The State aid exemption due to Covid ended in June of this year and I referred to that earlier. I reassure the Deputy the savings were a result of recovery and not an attempt to reduce the funding.

My final two questions are on broadcasting. RTÉ is to get an additional €15 million and part of that is obviously recognition RTÉ needs to be funded by the Exchequer. We await some type of funding model that is more sustainable than what RTÉ currently has. Part of it was being allocated to fund the increase in wages given the 3% in the Building Momentum pay agreement. The note I have says €3.61 million has been sought to ensure that pay package is funded. I raise again the issue of unequal pay for equal work between Raidió na Gaeltachta and RTÉ. There is a need for that to be addressed. The usual answer I get from the Minister and RTÉ is there a review of pay scales but it is not a review of the discrimination against those working in Raidió na Gaeltachta. There is no specific part of the review dealing with that specific issue. It is just a broad look at all the payscales. Nobody in any business should be working at a loss because they are working in the regions. That is the same for those working for Raidió na Gaeltachta, which is a sub-company of RTÉ, basically. Despite this they are on lesser pay.

To clarify in case there is confusion, there is €3.61 million for Building Momentum and that is completely separate from the €15 million for RTÉ.

The €15 million figure arises from a direct recommendation for interim funding from the report of the Future of Media Commission. It is completely separate from Building Momentum.

On the Deputy's other query, we spoke on this in the Dáil last week and, as the Deputy knows, I have followed up with another letter because I share his concerns about the pay disparity. I am awaiting a reply on that.

I thank the Minister.

I am disappointed there is no additional funding in this package for the Irish language organisations, given they are also affected by increased electricity prices, fuel costs and the general cost of living. It means if we look at the funding the Arts Council now gets, it has increased even more so as a percentage and the ratio is getting worse again.

Beimid os comhair Coiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge an tseachtain seo chugainn and, as the Deputy knows, there has been a significant increase. I think there was a 10% increase in the subheads for the Gaeltacht in the recent budget, which outstrips much of what we are discussing today. There is a provision on energy costs for Gaeltacht communities as part of the overall scheme and we can speak to that more next week when we are before the committee he chairs.

The pilot scheme was very successful, as shown by the 9,000 applicants. Maybe some time in future we can broaden this out. People need a living wage as well. I think people on the scheme are given €300 per week.

Yes, and the pandemic unemployment payment was €350, so we accepted people need at least that to live, at least. Maybe we could broaden that out in future. I spoke to some of the people who availed of it and they were happy because it got them off the hook. They are in a desperate situation because they are artists and they act in different ways and think in different ways. That is why they are artists. I thank the Minister for the scheme.

The funding for sports is very welcome because we all know clubs are under pressure throughout the country and especially small rural clubs. There is the cost of lighting and stuff, which clubs must have now for security, safety and all that. These are often run off diesel generators and so the funding is welcome.

I thank the Deputy for his kind words on the basic income. This was about changing how we value the arts and I hope it is a game-changer in that. Deputy Mythen has been very supportive of it, as have Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Munster and Senator Warfield, and I thank them for that. It is €325 per week and the figure came from artists and their engagement with it. It was the number one recommendation of the report of the arts and culture recovery task force. It suggested the figure of €325 per week and so I held firm to that to deliver what was sought. That came from the engagement with the group. I share the Deputy's hopes. I hope this is a three-year research project as well as the money aspect of it. I am hoping the research will really prove it should be rolled out to all artists.

They probably thought if they asked for €350 they would not get it. The Minister knows how it works. In all seriousness, we need to bring it up to the living wage. It needs to get to that stage because as I said, artists are really precious to us. They lift us out of certain things in life and they really need help. Most of them work on a whim anyway. They might work this week and next week they might not or they might work in two weeks' time. That is how they operate. They do not operate on a full contract. I ask the Minister to bear that in mind and look at increasing it.

As I said, the research element is the key part of this. Maybe the issues the Deputy raises is something that will come out of the research, but I wanted to adhere to the direct, number one recommendation from the artists themselves because they spent a lot of time putting that report together. Let us see what comes out of the research. We will have annual reports on this. There are journals being kept. We already have baseline survey done and we also have the control group of 1,000 too.

Let us see what the research demonstrates at the end of the three years.

There may be some sort of scope to expand or broaden the scheme. Many artists are single bands or artists, particularly pub entertainers and so on. They found it difficult to apply for and get it. Maybe that could be considered as well.

There are 500 musicians in the scheme. It is right across the board across the arts sector.

I welcome Deputy Fitzpatrick. Did he want to ask any questions?

I have one question. I congratulate the Minister on the basic income scheme for artists. It is hugely and warmly welcomed across the country. I see there were 9,000 applications. How many artists were we able to facilitate in the scheme?

Two thousand artists are in receipt of the basic income, and 1,000 artists are in the control group. For each year the control group receives two weeks of basic income for participation in the research part of the scheme, and it is important to have that group as well.

That is it. The Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, has answered all the questions I might have asked. I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for being with us and for making their presentations.

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