Select Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media debate -
Tuesday, 28 Nov 2023

Vote 33 - Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Supplementary)

An Cathaoirleach

Apologies have been received from Deputy Munster. A meeting of the select committee has been convened for consideration of the Supplementary Estimate for Public Services 2023 in respect of Vote 33 - Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, programmes A, D and E. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Martin, and the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, and their officials. As the Ministers are present, it is not expected that officials will need to speak in the public session.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend if they are not adhering to that constitutional requirement.

I propose we proceed to opening statements. I invite the Minister, Deputy Martin, to make her opening statement.

Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Catherine Martin)

Fáiltím roimh an deis labhairt leis an gcoiste inniu maidir leis an Meastachán Forlíontach do Vóta mo Roinne do 2023.

Eascraíonn an €16 milliún breise atá á lorg do RTÉ ó mholadh ón gCoimisiún um Thodhchaí na Meán maidir le maoiniú eatramhach do RTÉ in 2023, arna dhearbhú ag anailís NewERA ar ioncam agus caiteachas pleanáilte RTÉ go dtí deireadh 2024. Dá réir sin, méadaítear Meastachán Athbhreithnithe 2023 do mo Roinnse dá bharr go €1,181,509,000 ón Meastachán tosaigh de €1,165,509,000.

One of the key tasks of the Future of Media Commission was to make recommendations as to the sustainable funding of public service media in Ireland, including RTÉ. The commission recommended that in advance of implementing a new funding model, interim funding should be made available to RTÉ to ensure it could meet its statutory obligations.

The recommended amount for 2023 was €16 million.

While discussions are continuing with regard to the optimum long-term funding model, it is important that we proceed with making interim funding available in order that quality public service content continues to be provided to Irish audiences. Members will be aware that RTÉ had indicated that a higher level of funding would be required. However, it was necessary to obtain a fresh analysis of funding requirements in light of RTÉ’s current financial position. In doing so, NewERA re-confirmed the €16 million interim funding requirement, and RTÉ will need to take actions to address costs and introduce more efficiencies. NewERA also advised that further funding of €40 million would be required in light of forecast reductions in TV licence income, and the impact this may have on RTÉ’s financial position next year. This second element of funding will be addressed in the 2024 Revised Estimates, and will be linked to further progress on reform and rebuilding trust.

We are all aware of the vital role that public service media plays in our society: enabling informed public discourse and debate; supporting social cohesion; and celebrating moments of national importance. This was seen clearly during the Covid-19 pandemic and in ongoing efforts to tackle disinformation through the availability of trusted content. That is why it is important that RTÉ is properly supported to carry out its important role as public service broadcaster. However, it is even more important that the trust of the public is restored. There are a number of key steps in this. First, immediate action was required to change how RTÉ carries out its business, and I welcome the initial steps that the director general and board have taken. Strengthening of internal governance procedures, tighter financial controls and greater efficiencies in the use of public funding were clearly needed and are being implemented. More needs to be done, however, and this will be informed by any recommendations brought forward by the two independent expert advisory committees which I established during the summer. The work of both committees is ongoing and I expect to receive their reports in February next. Tangible progress on implementing reforms will be needed, will be monitored and will be linked to release of the €40 million funding.

We also need to see a clear path set by RTÉ as to how it will fulfil its important role in our society. The strategic vision submitted by the director general, allied to the management and governance reforms and cost savings measures introduced already, were sufficient to enable us to move forward with a decision to confirm the additional funding. RTÉ will continue to develop detailed actions to underpin this strategic vision, and this will include wide-ranging consultation, including with those most directly involved in the provision of public service content, namely, the staff of RTÉ.

This committee has played an important role in examining the causes of the crisis that has engulfed our national broadcaster. I welcome the contributions that members have made to the debate and I look forward to working with the committee as we work towards a better future for public service media in Ireland. As I have said, much has been done and more is required, but we must also ensure that the resources are made available in order that Irish audiences continue to have access to quality public service content.

The technical Supplementary Estimate comprises two parts. First is a redistribution of savings arising across my Department’s Vote to the benefit of the sports capital and equipment programme, SCEP, and Sport Ireland. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, will brief the committee on this proposed redistribution. In addition, the technical Supplementary seeks to move departmental savings arising in the Gaeltacht programme area to TG4, and this matter was substantively dealt with during my appearance at the Committee on the Irish Language, Gaeltacht and the Irish-speaking Community on 23 November last. I will hand over to my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, for a more detailed address on the proposed redistribution with regard to sport. Gabhaim míle buíochas leis an choiste as ucht a chuid ama.

Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media (Deputy Thomas Byrne)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an choiste. Tá áthas orm an deis seo a bheith agam iad a chur ar an eolas maidir leis an airgead breise atá curtha ar fáil ag an Rialtas don Roinn seo. The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, has allocated additional capital funding of €5.5 million for subhead D5 to allow Sport Ireland to continue to progress design and development work on key projects, including the velodrome, the badminton centre and cricket facilities, and to advance these projects to a shovel-ready position in anticipation of capital funding becoming available in the short term to allow construction to commence. The projects form part of a new master plan for the development of the Sport Ireland Campus, which was approved by the Government in November 2022. The Minister intends that the funding to be provided will also allow Sport Ireland to ensure that necessary maintenance and upgrade works to existing facilities at the campus are progressed.

The additional €9 million in capital funding that I have allocated, with the Minister, is for the sports capital and equipment programme. This will provide for a surge in applicants for funding, arising primarily from the 2020 SCEP round. The 2020 round received the highest number of applications ever, with over 3,100 applications submitted, representing an increase of 33% on the 2018 round. The Covid-19 pandemic had a major impact on the finances of many clubs, with fundraising opportunities seriously curtailed in 2020 and 2021. Furthermore, construction inflation has meant that the cost of many projects will have increased significantly since the applications were made. In awarding significant allocations under the 2020 round of the programme, grantees have been able to progress their projects apace and that is reflected in the projected rate of drawdown from the subhead.

These additional funding allocations arise on foot of savings elsewhere across the Department’s Vote, specifically within the tourism programme area and within subhead D4, the local authority swimming pool programme and subhead D7, the large scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF. The savings in the D4 subhead mainly arise from a delay in the drawdown of funding by the last remaining grantee of the local authority swimming pool programme. Further applications for swimming pool funding will fall to be considered under the large scale sport infrastructure fund.

The savings under the large scale sport infrastructure fund, the D7 subhead, relate to a much slower than anticipated drawdown of funds by grantees under the fund, which I have outlined over the course of the year. A key factor in this has been the high level of construction inflation, which has presented considerable challenges for LSSIF grantees. In light of drawdown challenges and following engagement with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, his Department and his officials, the Department recently wrote to all LSSIF grantees inviting them to apply for additional support. To be considered for additional funding, grantees were advised that the key elements of the project should remain as set out in the original application and that priority would be given to those that provide evidence-based documentation to support their applications.

Further allocations to existing LSSIF grantees are being considered and will be announced in the coming weeks, which will enable LSSIF projects to progress significantly next year. This additional funding is designed to get these projects off the ground. The proposed redistribution of funding will bolster the sport sector and provide additional opportunities for individual athletes, clubs and communities, at both local and national levels, something which I know is close to the hearts of many of those here today.

An Cathaoirleach

Unlike our normal meetings, this one involves a show of hands or members can volunteer a contribution or a question they want to ask. Rather than taking it section by section, I invite members to speak to whatever section they wish because there is quite a bit in it and they may have a particular interest in particular sections. The first to offer was Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

How long do I have?

An Cathaoirleach

We do not have a time limit.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Three hours so. That is fine.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I will be in the Dáil at 11.30 p.m. so as long as we are finished by then.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

We will draw it out until then.

An Cathaoirleach

We have as long as the Deputy wants.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I will not be long. I have a few questions and I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and the officials for attending. I will start with the Minister and her opening statement, in which she mentioned the interim funding for RTÉ. On that, I seek clarity on some of the cost-saving measures being proposed by RTÉ and the talk of 400 jobs potentially going there. Is the Minister aware of what level of discussion has taken place between the director general, Mr. Bakhurst, and staff on that proposal? Has there been communication on it?

Deputy Catherine Martin

There has been ongoing engagement with the staff. That was the commitment. It started with that town hall meeting the day the strategic vision and the intention was for ongoing engagement with the staff. There is the public consultation and the strategic vision as well.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

If staff reject that number of 400 job losses, the proposals and the measures contained within them, where does that leave us? What can the Minister do in that instance? Is she leaving it completely up to the director general?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It would be completely up to the director general in that situation. It is not for me and it would not be right or appropriate for me to interfere in that operational matter.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

If staff reject it and it leads to a reduction or breakdown in public service broadcasting, is there a point at which the Minister will have to intervene?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I hope it will not be rejected. I hope the consultation will allay any fears staff have and outline how the proposals can be carried out. It is not 400 job losses per se. RTÉ expects a reduction of about 150 jobs through natural retirements and so on.

The director general has indicated it will be only 40 in the first year. It is a process of engagement. I cannot predict what will come out of that engagement but it will ultimately be a matter for the director general.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I understand that. I know it was a few weeks ago but I am just going on the original reaction from staff. Obviously, there was a lot of concern.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I absolutely understand those concerns but it is ultimately a matter for the director general.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I certainly welcome the decentralisation of a lot of the work to places like Cork and Limerick. There is a lot of support for independent production included as well, which is good. It has not been welcomed across the board but I certainly think it is good.

The question of future funding comes up time and again and we are being asked whether we are avoiding it because of the political difficulty of introducing new measures, whether through the licence fee, Exchequer funding or anything else. We have to grasp the nettle now and decide one way or the other because the future of public broadcasting is at stake. Will the Minister give a clear updated timeline as to when we can expect a decision? I know there are outstanding reports that are awaited but when can we expect a decision? We need to know how this is going to be funded going forward rather than interim funding constantly being sought.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I agree with what the Deputy is implying in that consecutive governments have failed to address this issue. I am determined that a decision will be taken on this, although not before we have the final reports from the two expert advisory groups the Government approved in July. They are due in February. The three leaders, the two finance Ministers and I are having the discussions and these will continue. It is not that we are waiting for the reports to start discussions. The idea is that we hope to be able to move very quickly. For the decision to be implemented along with the decision itself being taken in the lifetime of this Government, we need to move very quickly on legislation within the first quarter of 2024.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

The reports are expected in February.

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is going to be difficult. It is complex but it has to be done. The strategic vision cannot be implemented without a long-term sustainable funding model. If we have learned anything in the last week, it is how valuable public service broadcasting and reliable information are. While we have not only seen that in the last week, we have seen it especially in that time. Reliable information is key and that is what we get from public service broadcasting, along with what we get in terms of drama, entertainment and sport. I am determined that we will take that decision.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

We will have the reports in February and hope to have the final decision very soon after. I have a couple more questions if that is okay. For what it is worth, because of the difficulties and the significant drop in income from licence fees, I believe we have to move away from that model. Perhaps the Exchequer is the way forward. Will the Minister provide an update on the short-term let registration legislation? Where are we with that? What is the expected timeline? Part of it relates to the planning guidelines, which do not fall under the Minister's Department, but can she give any kind of outline? I know it was not covered in the opening statement but I was hoping we could discuss it.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Certainly. I will not go back over the history of the matter because the Deputy will know when everything was published and so on. On 21 December, the proposed Bill was submitted to the European Commission pursuant to the technical regulations information system. As the Deputy will know, a standstill was put in place. Officials from my Department, Fáilte Ireland and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage met with representatives of the European Commission on 23 June. This meeting facilitated greater clarification as to the provisions proposed by the short-term letting Bill and the EU short-term rental, STR, proposals. On Friday, 8 September, the Department of housing issued draft general guiding principles on short-term letting to the committee and to my Department. The most recent development occurred on 15 November. As the Deputy will know, the European Parliament and Council reached a provisional political agreement on the EU proposal. It is understood that the proposal could be endorsed and formally adopted by both institutions by the end of the year or early in 2024. There will be further technical meetings concerning the implementation of this new regulation, in which officials from my Department and Fáilte Ireland will continue to participate. My Department will also engage further with the Commission on the alignment of Ireland's proposed Bill with the EU proposal. A positive response from the EU by the end of the standstill period, which is 22 December, and clarity on the EU regulations should allow the legislative process to commence early in 2024. That is the hope.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

How long will that process take? Does the Minister expect full committee sessions on it? Pre-legislative scrutiny has already been done.

Deputy Catherine Martin

We will just proceed with debating it through both Houses.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I have one concern. It is welcome legislation. We have talked about what is happening in many of our towns where rows of terraced houses are being let on Airbnb when they could offer very valid long-term accommodation for people. However, we obviously then have the concerns of the rural operators, people who offer short-term lets, who feel that this could be a really prohibitive constraint on their income. Do we have any clarification on the planning requirements for those rural areas outside rent pressure zones, RPZs, and for rural areas within RPZs? There are some rural areas within municipal districts that fall within RPZs although they are not urban.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I believe the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, hopes to bring clarity to that very shortly. That part of it lies with him. I would hope to see-----

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It is really important that those guidelines come out before the legislation proceeds through the Houses rather than in conjunction with or parallel to that process.

Deputy Catherine Martin

The intention is that we would see those guidelines beforehand.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I am going to hold the Minister to that.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Once we get the go-ahead from the EU, I hope to move ahead with the legislation as quickly as possible.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I have a question for the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne. I do not want him to feel left out.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

In these circumstances, it is a pleasure to be left out.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Is there any update with regard to funding for the FAI - I have FA written down here - and the gender requirements in respect of the membership of the board? Has the board made any serious efforts to address that issue?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Some in the football world have confused this matter but, to be clear, the requirement for 40% gender balance on the board applies to every national governing body. We have been putting pressure on those which have not achieved this yet to do so. This has been Government policy since 2018. It is a condition of funding and I have said that this year is the time to make it a reality. The FAI is one of a small number of organisations that have not yet achieved this. I commend the Irish Athletic Boxing Association, which voted unanimously to meet this condition last Saturday week. The GAA has changed its constitution to allow it to happen. It has not quite happened yet but it has taken that very important step. It is the same with the IRFU. It has a plan to meet this condition and we look forward to its implementation very soon. However, if organisations do not meet this condition, there will be a 50% cut in all funding from January. That applies to every single sport. It is not sport-specific and has nothing to do with the memorandum of understanding, MOU, with the FAI, although it is mentioned within it. It is really related to every sport. Essentially, bodies will only get 50% of what they would be entitled to in current funding if the national body does not have 40% gender balance on the board. Under the round of sports capital funding I launched this year - I cannot backdate the measure - clubs will only be able to draw down 50% of what they are awarded.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That point has to be satisfied by this January.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It must be satisfied by the end of year but the organisations have been on notice about this for five years.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Have they shown any serious efforts?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

To be fair, the number of women on boards overall, which we will publish, has increased substantially and more and more sports organisations are coming into compliance with this Government policy. By the way, it is government policy in many other countries as well. We are not the only ones. It also applies to political parties as regards candidate selection. It is a pretty similar arrangement. There are a number of sports bodies that will not have it done for January but, if their clubs get an equipment grant awarded - we hope to announce these grants in January - they will only be able to get 50% of what is awarded while women do not make up 40% of the board. It can be fixed. It is not a one-time punishment and then you are gone forever. When the issue is rectified, the clubs can come back. It is not designed to be a punishment.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I am not criticising the Government policy at all. I think the FAI needs to get its act together because this is important.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I am just trying to explain that it applies to other sports as well.

There are other supports as well.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

My concern is for the clubs that have put blood, sweat and tears into their sports capital grants. They got their planning over the line but they might be penalised because of the inadequacies of the top brass.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

We do not want to penalise anyone. I want to be clear about that.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I am not saying it is the Minister of State's fault. The board has to get its act together. That is what I am saying.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

To be honest, the general grassroots of every sport support this.

An Cathaoirleach

We will move on. The next speaker is Deputy Cannon.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank our colleagues from the Department for being with us today. I do not know if I have questions or comments for the Minister. Perhaps it is a combination of both. Obviously, it is exceptionally important that our national broadcaster continues to function as it should in creating a reliable output of public service media. One issue that arose during all the questioning in this committee on the debacle that we are all very much aware of caused me serious concern. I do not know if it was a genuine attempt to do so or if it just happened to be the case. The previous board, bearing in mind the significant overlap between the previous board and the current board, seemed to be able to wash its hands of any of the crises that arose at the time. The former chair outlined on a number of occasions that she and others were not even remotely aware of what was happening within RTÉ. When the two reports are made available to the Minister in February, I ask her, in her ongoing discussions with the new board of RTÉ, to ensure that all of us who have the best interests of RTÉ as an organisation at heart can be confident that there will be very robust - the Minister uses the phrase herself - internal governance procedures put in place under the new regime so that the board is acutely aware of decisions that are made. I am not suggesting the board needs to micromanage the affairs of RTÉ on a daily basis but I am suggesting that it should have in place robust reporting mechanisms for when key decisions are being made, mostly of a financial nature, about the future of RTÉ, and that it should be aware of those decisions, scrutinise them and ultimately report to the Minister on its confidence in the people making the decisions. That is a key element of what needs to be put in place after the Minister receives those two reports.

During the committee's discussions, the creation of a register of external interests was mentioned a number of times. We heard some noises about that a number of weeks ago but Mr. Bakhurst has gone strangely silent on it again. I ask that the register be put in place in the shortest possible timeframe. It is an incredibly important element of rebuilding trust in RTÉ as an organisation. The optics of having that register in place, so that people who engage in work outside of RTÉ are not seen to be influenced by that work or those offering it, will be an incredibly important part of restoring trust in RTÉ as an organisation.

On the issue of the RTÉ and public service broadcasting and media in general - many of us in this room have made the same point previously - I ask that in the ongoing engagement between the Department, the Minister and the Commission, there is an acknowledgement of the value of public service media at local level as well. I know the Minister has referred to this on numerous occasions. An easily accessed funding mechanism is needed for those at local level who create something of genuine value in the area of public service broadcasting and the print media. Their role in building trust in media in general in Ireland needs to be acknowledged and supported in the future. Those are my first few observations.

I support Deputy O'Sullivan in his concerns about the likely implications of a regime around Airbnb and how that might function in rural areas. I have been contacted by numerous people who operate Airbnb accommodation and the various models of self-catering on the platforms that are available. They are deeply concerned that in our efforts, laudable as they are, to seek to make more accommodation available for people who are without accommodation, we do not throw the baby out with the bathwater and undermine a sector of our tourism offering that is very valuable to rural communities, villages and towns. I understand that guidelines are to be issued to local authorities on how they deal with the planning aspects for operators who want to continue offering self-catering accommodation in rural towns and villages. I ask that we have scrutiny of those before they are factored into legislation in future.

Last week, the committee met representatives of the Musicians and Entertainment Association of Ireland who expressed concerns about the future of the Irish music industry in general. The Minister has done extraordinary and ground-breaking work in establishing the basic income for artists. We see already that this of immense value in giving people the opportunity to continue creating art in all its shapes and forms while having a safety net of not being wholly reliant on their art. It offers artists the freedom to be able to do something we hope will be pretty special in the future.

In last week's discussion, we also had an acknowledgement that in light of what is happening on streaming platforms around the world - it is not unique to Ireland - our music industry is in a very precarious position at this point. We had a discussion around the creation of a national music strategy, following on from South Korea and other countries that have developed such a strategy. They have done so primarily because they acknowledge the need to create a well planned, orchestrated and robust ecosystem where young musicians find that they have an opportunity to express themselves and promote and showcase their music. They have the wherewithal to do that in a world where their music itself is often undervalued, particularly in the context of the streaming platforms. I suggest that we examine whether the Departments that play any role in supporting and promoting Irish music in general, the Arts Council and local arts officers can pull together all the disparate strands of those support mechanisms to create an overarching national music strategy. We should do that in the new year. I would be interested in hearing the Minister's views on that.

Deputy Catherine Martin

On the concerns around governance and culture and the two reports commissioned by the Government last July, the difference between them and all the other reports is that there will be recommendations. Everything else has been findings. There will be recommendations in relation to the €40 million in funding and that money being released. We will be looking at those recommendations being implemented. That is part of the monitoring we will be do with NewERA and the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform.

On the register of interests, the due date for its establishment is January 2024. There is also a register of external activities. I expect to see the register of interests and I will link that to the release of any of that €40 million. In interviews following the publication of the strategic vision, I heard the director general refer to the fact that the registers will be coming in January. I definitely expect that timeline to be fulfilled.

On media funding, I have said several times at this committee that the Monaghan girl in me absolutely values local radio and the local newspaper. When we get the long-term sustainable model in place, it will not just be for RTÉ. The Future of Media Commission proposed that €30 million be ring-fenced for media funds to help support other providers. What we have done in the budget is similar to the interim model for RTÉ. We have ring-fenced €6 million that will be provided next year for local democracy and court reporting. There has been extensive engagement on this with the industry. We want this to provide what the industry needs. We will see that next year. The aim is to announce those schemes next year. As I said, the long-term sustainable model will cover them as well.

I believe the Arts Council is looking at the music industry.

I will ask officials to follow up to see where that is.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I wish to make a point about the work which the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, is doing in the area of sports capital. All of us in this room have seen the extraordinary leveraging of community life, endeavour and vitality that arises from the sports capital fund. It unlocks much more in fundraising, hard work and commitment locally. The sports capital model unlocked that sporting endeavour, for example, far more women are involved in sport now. Has an arts capital grant ever been looked at that would similarly unlock that in artistic endeavour? We have the model. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. In the sports capital grant, the robustness of the assessment, the mechanisms by which people make their applications and the grant awarding system are already there. Many communities have either no or poor arts facilities. If they received even an initial injection - a fraction of what we invest in sport - we could do something really special.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a very good suggestion.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I am very interested in exploring that. I have to see how NDP negotiations go. I would like to do something in that regard in this Government, even if it was a pilot scheme. It would be well worth it. There was engagement before the summer, I think, by the committee in exploring that idea. It was front and centre. I forgot to address one question on short-term letting; I apologise. The Minister and I are cognisant that we need to be careful about the impact on rural tourism. Neither I nor the Minister would want a negative impact on rural Ireland. Just this week, the Minister confirmed that the intention of the policy is to target high-demand urban areas, not rural areas. He said he would publish the updated guidelines when the heads of Bill are ready.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

We would all support that.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank the Minister and her officials for coming to the committee. I have a few observations. League of Ireland is a fantastic product. It is doing well and the crowds are fantastic. The Minister mentioned quality public service broadcasting. The number of hours League of Ireland games are televised is minimal in the context of the hours of sport produced by RTÉ and there are the likes of Real Madrid, Man United, etc. RTÉ should focus on League of Ireland football because it is a great product. Now is the perfect time to start promoting and televising League of Ireland football. That is more of an observation. I know the Minister is a strong League of Ireland supporter.

On the FAI, the Minister mentioned gender quotas. I think everybody supports the 40%. Penalising clubs if they do not meet the quotas was mentioned. Has the Minister looked at another mechanism by which the board or organisation would be penalised, rather than small clubs already hard-pressed to deliver facilities? Next year, the funds clubs can access if they do not meet the quota may be reduced. If it is only 50%, most of those projects will not go ahead. That would be damaging for many groups and clubs. Has the Minister looked at another method, penalising the FAI higher up the ranks rather than ordinary League of Ireland clubs? If she was a betting Minister, what would she say the chances are of some resolution on that 40% being reached by the end of the year? It seems quite worrying that small clubs will be impacted negatively.

SIPTU wrote to the Minister requesting a meeting on various issues within the FAI. Has the Minister agreed to meet it? On sports capital, €9 million is very welcome given the cost-of-living crisis and building inflation, as is the reform of multi-sport facilities. A number of smaller clubs told me they do not have professionals on their committees or involved in their clubs. Has the Minister ever looked at developing tiers or pots? Smaller clubs see themselves as competing with universities, local authorities or schools. They all have a professional element so the process is a lot easier for them than a small club that does not have resources and is struggling. I am aware that clubs struggle with the application. Will the Minister consider pots and a slimmed-down application for smaller, less professional clubs?

There was underspending in the local authority swimming programme; I think it went from €4 million to €2 million, meaning €2 million was reallocated. Where did that €2 million go? The Minister may have answered that already. Is the Minister not concerned? The number of swimming pools has not increased - it has been pretty static over the past few years - yet swimming is hugely popular. There is huge demand for swimming and there are a lot of positives about it. The Merrion Hotel got a grant for its swimming pool. It is across the road, in the heart of my constituency. It does not allow the public, local communities or children to use the pool. Are local authorities looking at privatising the delivery of swimming pools? Will local councils still do it? With the €2 million reduction in swimming pool funding, it now seems quite low. It is quite a big reduction in the context of the need and demand for swimming pools.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

On swimming pool allocation, no sports capital grant went to the Merrion Hotel. I am absolutely sure of that.

Deputy Chris Andrews

It was a Covid grant.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

It was a Covid grant, possibly. I do not know about that particular one but money was given out to private swimming facilities for energy as well this year. There are certain conditions attached. A private hotel would not qualify for a sports capital grant. This funding is an old fund from many years ago. We awarded money to three projects, I think. That money was awarded when Deputy Andrews and I were in the same parliamentary party. It is still there. I have been trying to activate some of these projects. I spoke to a TD in the constituency in which one of the projects is located to try to get activation. That money has not been spent. As I understand, there are three projects; we can check that. It is an old grant. There is no agenda to privatise. We have given grant aid to swimming pools under the LSSIF and will do the same under a new round of LSSIF. Swimming pools can apply in the same way. This is an old fund with money sitting there, waiting for, I think, three local authorities to draw it down. We want them to draw it down but it has not been drawn down this year so we are allocating it. We are also writing and almost finished a swimming strategy. That is also high on the Department's agenda. It will be published soon.

On the League of Ireland, my dad was a player for Drogheda and a player and a manager for Drogheda United. I regularly go to League of Ireland Drogheda United home games. I watched Sligo Rovers recently play Drogheda United. I am a regular attendee. I have not just come to the League of Ireland as a Minister of State, I have been going since I was very young and all through my life. I travelled on the European scene when Drogheda United was playing abroad.

This is something I am very committed to and football fans should know we want to support it. Media does not come under my remit but I understand that the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, does not tell broadcasters what to show and not show on television. I would certainly encourage people to look at it. It is really good that attendances are up. I can see the level of interest among my own kids and their friends and their excitement when they see players they know on the street. Certainly, at the moment in the case of Drogheda, there is interest among a number of people in the relatively local area around Meath, south Louth and, of course, Dublin as well and from abroad, and we like to see the club do well.

On the FAI and sports bodies in general, the funding cut is not a punishment. We really do not want to do it and it pains me even to discuss it. However, this has been on the agenda for five years. It is the exact same rule as is applied to political parties. I was in a club once and was asked what if that happened to Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael. Actually, that is the rule - effectively our funding will be cut by 50% if we do not have 40% of candidates from each gender. This is what we brought in. I am at pains to emphasise that there are organisations other than the FAI that are also not in compliance. The FAI has an AGM coming up and I am sure it will want to do it. Whatever about the issues at the previous EGM, they were not to do with the principle. People were not arguing against women being on the board but there were other issues. In general people support that. I hope the FAI can get resolution of it.

Deputy Chris Andrews

The Minister of State is not betting on it.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I would be very confident that it will. Nobody disagrees with this and heads nod whenever I mention it. I am not a gambling man but I think it is a virtual certainty that this will happen. However, it is not the intention to take away 50% of grants forever; it is merely while this is not in place. For example, if the board of some sports organisation changed next year and it did not have 40% of men and women on the board, it could come into play again. It is about better governance and reflecting that many of our top sports people are women as has been always the case. This summer was a really good example of that. It is just designed to give representation there. It is something I support and I think it is obvious.

SIPTU wrote to me and we are working to resolve the issues it has with Sport Ireland. I hope we will be able to do that very soon. I will consider that after that.

On the issue of sports capital, the Deputy is right to say that multi-sport is definitely preferred and that will be a feature of the LSSIF when we launch it. In terms of professionals on the committee, we have put a huge amount of effort into outreach to the NGBs this year to encourage them to get clubs to apply. I have personally worked with clubs on the ground. A few clubs were not going to apply because they thought it was too difficult or whatever and I got them to apply. Two bodies in particular, the FAI and the Irish Amateur Boxing Association, along with many others put considerable effort in. The Tánaiste, who has a family history in boxing, asked me to reach out to the IABA to make sure that it knew it had a friend in the Department if it needed help. It put the development officers out there. It had video calls and meetings in an effort to get boxing clubs to apply and we are very keen that they would apply. The GAA and IRFU have done this for a long time.

This year, the FAI put in a remarkable effort to encourage soccer clubs and help them to apply. Whenever I have visited clubs, there was often an FAI representative there. The Chair was at Slane Wanderers when it was launching its plan and there was somebody from the FAI there. I was delighted to see them because it showed me they had picked up on what we were talking about over in the Department, in video calls and through Sport Ireland about helping clubs applying for sports capital. The FAI was definitely doing that. I commend it on that and on putting people on the ground to do it.

We have tried to make the form as simple as possible and it is relatively simple. Of course, we need to have procedures in place because we are awarding significant amounts of money. We are very keen to reach out to as many sports as possible and be as fair as possible to all of them. We have really put in an effort and I think that will be reflected when we publish the list of applications and then when we eventually publish the allocations.

Deputy Chris Andrews

If the FAI does not reach the gender quota by the end of the year, but it happens in, for example, February, will the clubs get 100% in February?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Yes, absolutely. There are organisations-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

Therefore, the money is being withheld rather than-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Exactly. I want to be clear about that. It is withheld. There are organisations which will have it done and for definite have already decided to have it done, but it may not be in place by one January. This will still apply to them as well. However, it will be rectified by the time they do it.

Deputy Chris Andrews

At the moment some Irish boxers are out in Armenia and I understand they are doing pretty well. Where an Irish boxer comes up against a Russian opponent, the request from the Minister of State and from Sport Ireland is that they would not fight and would bow out of the fight. If an Irish fighter were to take on a Russian, would there be consequences for the club or the individual?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

No, there will not be.

Deputy Chris Andrews

There will not be any consequences for the-----

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Let me be clear on this. The IABA is an autonomous organisation and we do not tell it what to do.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Will Sport Ireland not tell it what to do either? Will there be no sanctions from Sport Ireland?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

No. Let me set out the position exactly. I and like-minded Ministers internationally have been very clear on our view on the exclusion of athletes representing Russia and Belarus. We, as Ministers, have made a number a very clear statements in this regard. This has certainly placed athletes and the IABA in a difficult position. I welcome and applaud that it has stuck to this principle as have its boxers. It is very important that they do. We have been always very clear that the IABA is an autonomous organisation and makes its own decisions. We do not make those decisions for it. I have said that and we have also told Sport Ireland that.

I again commend the IABA on its unanimous decision to have 40% women on its board. That was one of the boards with the lowest representation of women, ironically for a sport in which women boxers have been extremely high profile and have brought huge success. Anyone I have met from the grassroots of boxing was very supportive of that. I recognise that the IABA and our boxers are in a very difficult position. They should not have to deal with geopolitics. We have set out our views as ministers and as governments. However, we do not tell sports bodies what to do.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I understand that many other European sports ministers signed the letter that the Minister of State signed. Most of the other countries have not adhered to that; it has only been Ireland.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

As I have said, I want to support the IABA in what it does. However, it is not under a directive from us. It would go against all principles of separation between sports and Government if we were to instruct it what to do in individual circumstances. I do not envy the position boxers are in. It is really difficult for them. As Ministers we have set out our views on it. A lot of that is with the Olympic Games and Paralympics in mind. I have tried to engage proactively with other boxing associations around the world. I have met them and offered them our support. The issue of Russia and Belarus is not simply about the war in Ukraine although obviously that is a large part of it; there is also a history of other issues. We want to see a better organisation representing the sport at global level. The Irish Government does not set up these organisations, but we have given support and encouragement to those that want to be part of that.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Regarding broadcasting, while it would not be appropriate for me to interfere with programming issues which are operational matters for RTÉ and other broadcasters, I point the Deputy to the report of the Future of Media Commission. One of its key recommendations was to develop a strategic plan for sports broadcasting. It was developed by Sport Ireland with public service media and public service content providers. Coimisiún na Meán will establish a strategic working group looking at sports that need increased visibility. We envisage Coimisiún na Meán setting up that strategic working group next year. That will be positive.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I thank the Ministers and officials for coming in. I apologise for missing the opening statements which happened to clash with my speaking slot in the Chamber. I apologise if I go over anything already covered.

I just heard the end of what the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, said about the large-scale sporting infrastructure fund.

He acknowledged that we are in a very different world now than we were in early 2020 when the grants were originally allocated. What is the overall budget for enhancing those grants? Is there a set budget at the moment?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

We will make the announcement in the coming weeks as to what that is exactly. That is not fully determined. I am very confident that what we announce will be sufficient, by and large, to get those projects off the ground.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That is very welcome because the world has changed a lot since then.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The prices have just shot up.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The other question I want to ask relates to the budget. Does the Minister of State have any idea of what the budget will be for the current local and regional schemes that just closed for applications? I know he does not have the overall ask yet but does he have a ballpark figure?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I do not yet. We have capital negotiations in the early part of next year but the ask is significantly higher than the last sports capital grant.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I wish the Minister of State well with his endeavours. It is money very well spent.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I would certainly appreciate any support in that regard from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and from the party leaders.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

We will be pushing for as much money for Kerry as we can get.

A couple of clubs in my constituency have come to me that are having difficulty drawing down funding at the moment so they have bridging loans and various difficulties as a result. Is there a possibility that the issue will be resolved between now and 1 January?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

If the Deputy wants to give us the names afterwards we can check them for him. Deputy Griffin knows the staff as well as I do and they work really hard. Obviously a lot of grants were given out in the last sports capital round and the staff are really busy at the moment but we will certainly look at the details if the Deputy passes them on.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It seems to be more a cash flow issue, as distinct from an administrative issue. The paperwork is done but I do not think the cash is there to drawdown at the moment.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I assure the Deputy that the Department is good for the grants.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Okay. I ask that the Department would pay if it could because it puts clubs under pressure when the drawdown is not available.

My last point relates to the preparation for Paris 2024. Is the Olympic Federation of Ireland happy with the level of funding at the moment or is there a chance of further supplementary funding between here and the summer?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The budget has already allocated €1 million extra for elite athletes, so that covers our Olympians and Paralympians. That is on top of the money that is already there. My understanding from Sport Ireland is that it will be sufficient to cover the costs. The Olympic movement has other sources of funding as well. I think we are definitely playing our part. The embassy in Paris is doing a lot of good work as well on the ground and everybody is looking forward to it.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Very good.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Martin, for coming in. I want to ask about what happened in Dublin last week. Pictures were beamed all over the world. Does the Minister anticipate that we will need to address reputational damage to Ireland as a tourism destination internationally as a result of the awful, dreadful scenes we saw in Dublin? Is brand Ireland damaged and will it need a bit of corrective work from Tourism Ireland?

Deputy Catherine Martin

Our brand is the céad míle fáilte and that we are safe and it is vitally important that visitors feel secure and have the best possible experience in our capital city. Obviously what happened last week has shaken confidence so we need to ensure that it is just a fleeting rocking of confidence. All the measures that the Minister, Deputy McEntee, announced today in the Dáil Chamber will be helpful in that regard. The Minister, Deputy Coveney, and the Ministers of State, Deputies Richmond and Calleary, Fáilte Ireland, and officials from my Department also met with businesses today, including in tourism, to see what we can do to help with that. It is a case of working together on that. Fáilte Ireland will continue its regular and important engagement with An Garda Síochána and Dublin City Council on this.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That is very good. On the arts front, I concur with the suggestion of Deputy Cannon regarding the national music strategy. I think it would be a very positive thing. One of the points we discussed in the committee last week, which I would like to bounce off the Minister is that we are trying to get more stations to play Irish musicians. Would she consider rewarding stations with further funding, for example, per play? Daytime play is what is really sought. I know that there is an element of the sound and broadcasting fund which rewards stations for content and various other productions but is that something the Minister would look at to encourage more Irish music to be played on stations?

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is something I looked into but I am prohibited under EU rules from having specifically Irish music. Different rounds of the sound and vision fund related to gender and live music. I have been doing that as much as possible in everything I do, including in arts funding.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That would be positive. It is worth considering.

It was brought to our attention that there is a slight anomaly in the new scheme that is being piloted. By the way, the artists' support scheme is really fantastic. It is progressive and very innovative.

One of the issues that has been brought to the committee's attention – the Minister may have received correspondence on it – is the fact that artists with disabilities have to choose between the disability payment or their new payment. There may be linked payments and benefits that come with retaining the disability payment that would be lost otherwise. This does not affect a significant number of artists but at the same time it is something that warrants investigation. Perhaps at some stage if the Minister is in Monaghan she could sit down with the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, and see if they could iron something out. It would be a help and it has been something that the committee has acknowledged is unfortunate and could be addressed.

Deputy Catherine Martin

It is something on which we have been engaging with the Department of Social Protection. I thank the Deputy for his kind words about the basic income scheme. A lot of people are hearing about the support it is. I hope the three-year pilot will lead to more being done and that it will be rolled out more extensively. The research element of the basic income scheme will help strengthen the case for artists with disabilities. In addition to those who are receiving it, we have the control group as well who are not receiving it.

I am very aware of issues in general for artists with disabilities, not just with the basic income. This summer officials from my Department held in-person disabled artists stakeholder meeting which was very successful. We agreed to have regular engagement. That is something that has been happening, including with the Arts Council, Arts and Disability Ireland, Safe to Create, and with individual disabled artists. We have really increased that engagement. As Deputy Griffin says, a lot of the issues fall under the remit of the Department of Social Protection. The engagement is ongoing and we are seeking to get as much clarity as we can about how income from whatever source interacts with State benefits such as the social protection payments. The engagement is very much under way.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I will now ask about RTÉ. Friday night and the massive success of the "Toy Show" reminded us just how important RTÉ is to everyone in this country. I grew up in two-channel land and I have a massive affinity and fondness for RTÉ. I want to see the very best for the station into the future. It shaped who I am culturally because we did not have any other legal radio or television until about 1996, although the radio came earlier all right. I remember the sound of Kerry County back in the 1980s when it did not have a licence. RTÉ holds a very special place in my heart. During last week's events in Dublin we saw quality reporting from RTÉ. It is so important in particular to address misinformation. The Middle East coverage lately by the RTÉ correspondents has been top class. I could go on.

Something that came to my attention last week was that in June, when all of this erupted, RTÉ made a decision to stop advertising the licence fee outside of RTÉ channels. How did it possibly come to that decision when the licence brought in €221 million in 2022? In the first six months of 2023 RTÉ spent €217,000 and then a decision was made to stop advertising outside of RTÉ platforms. Was the Minister aware that decision was taken at the time?

Deputy Catherine Martin

RTÉ is not the TV licence issuing agent nor the sole beneficiary of the receipts, but it does air adverts to remind the public of the statutory obligation to purchase a licence.

While the airing of advertisements is a scheduling decision for RTÉ and outside my remit as Minister, I think it is absolutely right that RTÉ promote the statutory obligation to purchase a TV licence. I understand the main strand of advertisement focuses on reinforcing that obligation, as well as explaining how to pay. The second strand of adverts focuses on demonstrating the breadth of public service content.

Prior to the end of June 2023, RTÉ also ran TV licence advertising on other media platforms, such as TV, national and regional radio stations, digital radio and video on demand. The cost of this in 2023 was €217,000, while the total spend on off-RTÉ advertising for 2022 was €396,000. Off-RTÉ advertising was paused in July 2023 to reassess the campaign. RTÉ suspended paid media advertising as part of a broader cost-management programme. While allocation of advertising budgets and, by extension, resumption of advertising is a matter for RTÉ, I understand its ambition is to recommence off-RTÉ TV licence advertising in early 2024.

As I have said on numerous occasions, all of us who own a TV are obliged to have a TV licence. It is not only the law; it also supports public service content created by the independent sector, including broadcasters other than RTÉ.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I echo that. It is important people be reminded that, despite the mistrust of RTÉ or certain people in the higher echelons of RTÉ that may be there at the moment, independent broadcasters and producers benefit from the fund as well. You would have thought the messaging would have shifted in July. On 17 July, I got the figures back on the massive fall-off in licence fee collection. Since then, €17.5 million has been haemorrhaged. Last year’s figure of just under €400,000 represents less than 0.2% of the overall revenue generated by the licence. It is a tiny output for a huge return. In June, someone in RTÉ at executive or board level made the decision to cut advertising completely, outside of RTÉ platforms. The Minister should ask for the rationale for that. It has not been renewed yet and there has been a massive fall-off and no intervention, change in messaging or reminders that other people like independent producers and broadcasters benefit from the licence fee. The amounts lost continue to accrue. In the meantime, the situation had gone beyond RTÉ and it came to Government and got funding.

A cynic might say it suited RTÉ to pull back and let the situation develop. It does not look good that RTÉ made that decision and did not intervene when it emerged there was a massive fall-off. There was no intervention or change in messaging. In fact, it pulled back completely from advertising outside its own platforms. That €17.5 million represents over 50 times the €345,000 at the heart of this scandal on day one and is a scandal in itself. It warrants investigation. The Minister should ask the chair how the decision was reached, what was the rationale and why, given it was so little that for the second half of the year it would have represented 0.1% of the amount brought in last year by the licence, this mind-boggling decision was made by RTÉ. If there was discomfort about looking for the licence fee from people, why not pivot the message and remind people it is not just RTÉ, but local radio stations we all value dearly and independent producers who employ people in our communities? It did not do that and that warrants further scrutiny.

Deputy Catherine Martin

The stopping of ads was an editorial decision for RTÉ and not something that would have been discussed with the Department. Its spend is a matter purely for RTÉ and not for the Minister. I suspect, given the timing, it was thought counterproductive because of the feeling of the public at that time. That is just me surmising.

On the TV licence shortfall, we cannot say if it is a trend yet but in November it is averaging at below 30% for the first time. The stats I have for the most recent week show a 2% difference on this time last year. Maybe it is a sign things are starting to change. We will see if that trend is established.

The €16 million, as the Deputy is well aware, is the interim funding as agreed under the Future of Media Commission. The €40 million will not be released at least until we see the recommendations from that commission. That would give us time to see advertising launched again and to see the TV licence. There are strict conditions. It is there but not released yet. We have to see the recommendations from those expert advisory committees.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The Minister needs to find out how this decision was reached, given how much funding was at stake and how much exposure there is for the taxpayer as a result of the dramatic fall-off of over €17 million in licence fee renewals and new licences. She needs to scrutinise who was in the room, how the decision was made and if RTÉ can explain why it was made. If a private company was haemorrhaging income, you can be damn sure it would dig in. However, when it is the national broadcaster and the State is there to bail it out, it does not look good.

On the licence fee and advertising of it, there needs to be a review of who takes responsibility for that. RTÉ has not taken this duty seriously. Since June, it has stepped away, to a degree, from this. Maybe it is something the Department needs to take control of, given it is not just RTÉ that benefits from it and it is clearly not a priority for RTÉ to advertise the importance of the licence fee, its collection and the number of jobs dependent on it. We have seen no official messaging from RTÉ in that regard since this happened. I have noticed a marked fall-off in the amount of advertising by RTÉ of this. The only change I have seen is it started to thank people in the autumn for renewing their licence but none of the stuff has happened that anyone worth their salt on a board or in a conference room would say needs to be part of the core messaging now that the cheese has moved. That needs to be scrutinised further by the Minister, given the huge amounts of public money at stake.

Deputy Catherine Martin

I take the Deputy's point but I understand it is the ambition to recommence off-RTÉ TV licence very shortly. I believe RTÉ is cognisant of the need to get people paying their TV licence fee. I take the point on board.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

When was the decision to recommence it made?

Deputy Catherine Martin

I think it indicated it would happen in early 2024.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

When it made that decision is the question. All of this is in public now and all of a sudden it decides to recommence it but it has got its money in the meantime. I am not convinced everything was done appropriately. There were some games played by RTÉ and it ultimately got its money. With public money, Cabinet needs to be far more serious about giving money to organisations that I feel has been less than honest with the public in the way it has conducted itself. This was done under the current board and since June so there is no hiding from this for the board. It made a conscious decision to stop advertising the licence fee outside RTÉ's own platforms, something that was always done. That looks very suspicious and deserves to be investigated further.

Deputy Catherine Martin

It was not Cabinet making a decision in isolation. NewERA played a part in this by recommending the €40 million. It felt the shortfall would be €60 million but only recommended €40 million. That was the recommendation that came to me and the Minister, Deputy Donohoe.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I know, but Cabinet should be asking what efforts RTÉ made to stop the rot and the fall-off in the fee. It looks to me like it decreased rather than increased efforts. It is unforgivable if that happened. Facts are facts; RTÉ stopped advertising it. That is new. We were not told that at any hearings before summer. It is not the Minister’s decision. She did not make that decision. I am not saying that.

The board needs to answer why that happened. We are talking about the new board; this is not something that happened in the past. We are talking about a sum of €17.5 million and counting. It is not good business.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a few questions, the first of which is to the Minister of State. I concur with much of what has been said about funding, particularly regarding the sports capital grants, which are making a significant difference in many parishes, small towns and rural villages. The Minister of State has made great efforts and gone to great lengths in promoting gender equality, not just in the membership of boards but in respect of the facilities provided and ensuring all of that is neatly woven into the guidelines when clubs are applying for funding. The feedback I receive from clubs shows this is making a difference. Separate dressing rooms are one example of facilities we might take for granted or assume are already there. Will the Minister of State outline any review he has done or policy he is introducing in this regard?

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Projects seeking to enhance women's participation in sport are a priority for the Department and are very much encouraged. I am aware that there are facilities around the country to which women do not have the same access as men. Colleagues in the Seanad agreed last week that this certainly is a problem and one that is not discussed much in public. This year, I have introduced a requirement that every club that receives a sports capital grant will have to certify that men and women have similar access to the facilities. In the case of a regional grant, which is a larger grant given to centres of excellence and so on, and in the case of the large-scale sports infrastructure fund, clubs will, as a condition of drawdown, have to publish an access policy showing there is similar access for men and women. That is very positive and I am told it is already driving some change within certain areas. Any time I speak to women in certain sports, they tell me this is a problem. It has to be put to an end. We acknowledge that more facilities are needed and I am working on that with the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien. Last week in the Seanad, a Senator gave an example of a town with five GAA clubs, which the local camogie club is having difficulty accessing. The Government is expected to provide a solution in situations like that. Perhaps the Government is responsible for doing so but, in the first instance, one of the local clubs, which presumably are State-funded, should be providing access. That is what we are trying to drive through via the sports capital programme. I expect it to be a successful policy. Like everything else, it is not designed to punish but to drive change, and I think it will do so. The evidence from the feedback we are getting is that it is already driving change.

An Cathaoirleach

I agree with that. I concur with the Minister of State's comments earlier that the GAA and GAA clubs have been incredible at hunting down every last available penny from the Department, particularly through sports capital grants. I notice a marked difference with soccer clubs. Credit must be given to the FAI for reaching out to clubs within counties, as I have seen, with Zoom calls and trying to offer support. Those local clubs definitely need a little more support and lift to get to where a lot of our GAA grounds are. I appreciate the Minister of State's work on this issue.

I concur with Deputy Cannon's idea of the sports capital grant being a model for the arts. I know from experience that access funding has been really useful in the past. The ability for more community-based groups to apply for funds and capital grants to improve facilities could go a long way with a lot of community organisations. In many cases, they do not even have a space. It certainly is an idea worth exploring.

I am gobsmacked by what Deputy Griffin said, as I am sure are the Minister and colleagues. I am assuming he is not incorrect in asserting that RTÉ stopped promoting and encouraging people to pay the television licence fee as the recent debacle unfolded, which has had a significant impact on licence revenues. That is an issue for another day but it is gobsmacking to hear it. I hope it is not quite as bad as what has been asserted.

Regarding the terrible riots at the weekend, the tech groups and social media platforms certainly were an enabler in gathering crowds in the city centre. They are enablers for gathering crowds like that in all parts of the country and doing so at a speed that can take An Garda Síochána and the people affected in those areas completely off guard. I heard snippets of the Minister's statement in the Dáil on this topic. She said she has had engagement with Coimisiún na Meán on it. Will she outline her personal reaction in observing the four-hour period in which calls to the public were put out on certain social media platforms encouraging people to go into the city centre? Has she had any engagement directly with any of those social media tech groups? I would also like to hear about her engagement with Coimisiún na Meán. The platforms certainly enabled what happened on Thursday.

Deputy Catherine Martin

Yes, and that is why it is good we are leaving the era of self-regulation. Coimisiún na Meán is now in place. This committee did great work on the relevant Bill before it was enacted. I met with Coimisiún na Meán approximately ten days before the riots to see where it was in regard to the online codes. When those codes are officially put in place, we will have real powers of enforcement. Last week, when we saw what was happening in Dublin, there was engagement again. Although Coimisiún na Meán does not have the powers of enforcement just yet, following the horrific incident outside the school, it made immediate contact with the four main platforms, that is, TikTok, Google, Meta and X, formerly Twitter, to raise its concerns not only about the spread of possibly graphic images and videos of that awful assault but also its concerns about what might subsequently happen. The commission was very much on top of it. The platforms responded early Thursday evening and informed an coimisiún that they had activated their instant response mechanisms. On Friday, Coimisiún na Meán met with representatives of the platforms, along with representatives of the European Commission, and it also met with An Garda Síochána. Yesterday, I met with the main commissioners, namely, the chief executive, the online safety commissioner and the digital services commissioner, to discuss again the concerns around the role of social media in fomenting that unrest. They updated me that they will continue to engage with the platforms and with the European Commission over the coming days.

For now, until the online codes are in place, the advice from an coimisiún is that people should report any extremist hate speech, threats or intimidatory content to the platforms and to An Garda Síochána. I support an coimisiún in that. As we go forward, the difference is that the online safety codes will, we hope, be in place in February. Incredible work has been done by the online safety commissioner, Niamh Hodnett, in the period since an coimisiún was set up in March. I expect to see the draft codes very shortly. Once they are in place, we will have the enforcement powers and that will be a game-changer.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Minister honestly of the view that the mechanisms the media platforms pointed out to her as being in place were sufficient?

Deputy Catherine Martin

An coimisiún does not have the powers of enforcement just yet.

An Cathaoirleach

I know that but, as the Minister said, self-regulation is no regulation. We are expecting the platforms to have some moral compass around stuff like this. This was a very isolated incident and everybody could see on social media that it was done very quickly. At the same time, there was a four-hour lead-in, with the first post proposing to meet at the Spire at 6 p.m. We could all see that hours ahead of time, which gave people an opportunity to travel. What was the Minister's reaction to the platforms' inaction or action?

Deputy Catherine Martin

This is why I argued so strongly for the setting up of the regulator. We need an end to the current situation of self-regulation. It is not sufficient as it stands but it is about to change. We will have the online safety codes. The main platforms have bases in Ireland, which means the country of origin principle applies and we can enforce. The applicable penalty is up to €20 million or 10% of turnover and may include criminal proceedings against management. That real power of enforcement is about to be put in place.

Unfortunately, one of those is Telegram, which cannot be regulated by Coimisiún na Meán because not only is it not in Ireland, it is not in the EU, and it is based in Dubai. It is for people to report any content that is inciting hatred to An Garda Síochána. I know the Minister, Deputy McEntee, is also looking to see what can be done on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Minister feel there was any co-operation between them and An Garda Síochána at the weekend?

Deputy Catherine Martin

They did get back to Coimisiún na Meán very early on Thursday to say they had initiated their critical incident response.

An Cathaoirleach

They tell us they have initiated their community standards and that something remains-----

Deputy Catherine Martin

Again, we are in the situation that we were just about to get this. They need enforcement. The self-regulation that we have seen does not work.

An Cathaoirleach

All of this proves they still need enforcement powers. That is critical because they will not do it on their own.

I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials, who have sat here along with them, ably assisting them. It is not that they need any assistance but the officials have helped to give that information to us all. I thank them for their participation in the meeting. I want to pass on an apology from Deputy Alan Dillon, who I saw on the screen but who could not be with us this afternoon. That concludes our consideration of programmes A, D and E of Vote 33 - Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media.