We come now to Section 2, which was postponed. There is a certain onus on the Minister's Department to re-check the section in the light of the discussion and any amendments coming in, although we made no very great changes that would involve changes of definition.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed : " That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."
The only thing I felt about this section was that the definitions were entirely too elaborate—that some terms were defined and the definition simply meant that they were what they said. However, we must leave definitions to the Minister.
I have gone through them and every one of them seems to be apt. The only question is whether there is room for further definition, but it does not occur to me that there is anything that could be further defined.
It would be very hard to find them because they apparently took the Bill page by page and defined everything. I have no objection to the definitions here.
The onus is on the Minister with regard to them in connection with the amendments he is to bring in on Report. There will perhaps be some consequential changes in the definitions in view of the change in numbering, but that is the Minister's responsibility and we will have to leave it to him.
Question put, and agreed to.
TITLE.
Question proposed : " That the Title stand part of the Bill."
I intended to raise a point in connection with the Title. During the progress of the Bill we had to refer to the Constitution and its provisions under which a military defence force may be established. I merely mention the matter so that the Minister will consider whether the Title, as set out in the Bill, complies fully with the requirements of the Constitution.
The long Title ?
Yes. Something comes in about the safety and protection of the State in one of the Articles. I am not saying that the Title is not comprehensive ; I am merely raising the point with a view to having it examined to make sure it is.
It seems to be very comprehensive.
It struck me that some additional words might have to be inserted. However, I will look up the particular Article later and mention it to the Minister.
Question put, and agreed to.
It is my duty to report the Bill to the House and the Committee has to authorise that. My report will be :
The Special Committee has gone through the Bill and has made amendments thereto. The Bill as amended, is reported to the Dáil.
Mr. Collins
I move that the report be forwarded to the Dáil.
I second.
Agreed accordingly.
Bill reported with amendments.
Mr. Collins
I feel that we should not conclude without recording our appreciation of the work of the Chairman and the manner in which the Minister met the Committee. I feel that we owe a special debt to Deputy Cowan for his painstaking series of amendments which enabled a complete analysis of the Bill to take place. I may at times have been a little impatient with his myriad amendments, but, as the person who first proposed that the Bill should come to this Committee, I think it should go on record from me, as a Deputy of the Opposition, that this is a method that could be adopted with advantage in respect of heavy Bills of this nature. As the person who proposed the Chairman for the Chair, I should like to record my appreciation of work well done. I regret that I had to miss a few meetings but I think the record will speak for itself with regard to the efforts of the Committee. Whatever about the initial fracas, as we got together more often, progress became infinitely easier and I say quite genuinely to the Minister that we were met in the main in a most reasonable way by him.
As a matter of procedure, I have to move a motion in the House on Tuesday and then the Minister has to decide on his date for the Report Stage.
It will be some weeks ahead.
That concludes our business here.
I would like to put on record my very deep appreciation of the manner in which the Committee discussed what was a very involved and highly technical Bill. Like Deputy Collins, I would wish to express regret if I appeared impatient at any time with the very long discussions and the difficult and technical arguments. I would feel sorry if I created an impression of impatience. I would also like to thank every member who attended the Committee and gave it his time. In many cases I know the members were very anxious to go into the House and attend to business there but they sacrificed that, and by their presence they made it possible to get through the work as expeditiously as we did.
I would like to say further that Deputy Collins was fully justified in his proposal that this technical Bill should be dealt with by a Special Committee. I must admit that I was sceptical at first but I am convinced now, as Deputy Collins appears to be, that it is an excellent way of saving very valuable time in the House with regard to Bill of this character, as they can be dealt with much more effectively in committees such as this.
To the Chairman and to Captain Cowan I would like to say that without their help this Bill could not have been dealt with in the very expert manner in which it has been. Going now from this Committee back to the House, there is little, if anything, that can be done to improve it. No doubt other minds, when dealing with it, will have other views and perhaps efforts will be made to improve it further. If that should happen it is, of course, what we want. We all want this Bill when it is completed to be not only a credit to the Army but a credit to the Committee, and to the Dáil and the Seanad, when it is finally handed over.
I would also like to express the hope that the Bill will be enacted by the present Parliament—that it will not be left unfinished and have to be restarted all over again, especially in view of the heavy toil that we know its examination involved.
I would like to join in the tributes that have been paid to the Committee for the way in which this Bill has been examined. Since I came into the House it is the first occasion on which a Bill of this nature, introduced by a Minister, has been referred to a Committee such as this. I think that the result will justify the confidence that was placed in the Committee by the Dáil. Furthermore, I have the feeling that this Committee is only the forerunner of similar committees that will be set up to deal with other difficult and heavy Bills in the future.
There were two things that I thought militated to some extent against our work. One was our original decision not to have the newspaper reporters present. In view of the public interest in the Bill, I think that, once we decided to have a record made, we should have had the Committee open to the Press. I mention this, as it is a matter that may come before subsequent committees, and probably before the Committee of Procedure and Privileges. When that is being considered I think it would be a good idea that the Press—which, after all, is the eyes of the country—should have an opportunity to report the proceedings of special committees such as this.
Secondly, I think that when committees such as this are set up, every member of the committee who can possibly attend should attend. Certain members of the Committee, apparently, found it impossible to be here. That probably could not be helped—it was, perhaps, unavoidable—but if this system of special committees is to be adopted in the future, it would be desirable that members who are selected to serve on committees should use their best endeavours to be present. I am saying this for the purpose of putting it on record for consideration by future committees, and by the Dáil as a whole.
I want to pay a tribute to the Chairman for the patient way in which he conducted the proceedings. He gave every person full scope and no member of the Committee can say that he did not receive every courtesy and facility from the Chairman. That helped the Committee in large measure in its deliberations.
A further matter that must be mentioned as most important in the satisfactory outcome of the proceedings of the Committee was the attitude of the Minister. He listened to the arguments and put up the point of view of the Department, which it was his duty to do. Having listened to every argument that was put forward he very generously assisted the Committee by ensuring that whatever views were expressed here would be fully considered by his advisers and by the staff, not only of the Department of Defence but of the Attorney-General and other Departments concerned. That helpful attitude of the Minister made it a pleasure to be on this Committee and I think that the Minister can look forward to this Bill being enacted into law in a very short time. If the Bill leaves the Committee fully examined, and if the result of the work of the Committee is that the Bill will be an improved Bill when it passes the Report Stage of the Dáil, then I think the Committee will feel that our thanks are due to the Minister for the very helpful and understanding way in which he met the different views that were put forward here.
I want to say, as a person who put down quite a number of amendments, that I appreciate very much the kindly way in which the different proposals I put forward here were considered, discussed and decided. I have always looked forward to an opportunity of having something to do with a permanent Army Act. I was very pleased to be selected as a member of this Committee and I am very proud to have been on the Committee. I sincerely hope that our joint efforts will result in a Defence Act that will make for the efficiency of the Defence Forces and for justice and fair play for all ranks.
In concluding the proceedings, I would like to mention the first meeting. The first meeting of the Committee is not on record. I take it that some record nevertheless, has been made of our first meeting, and that some record will be incorporated in the proceedings—namely that we met, who attended, the election of the Chairman, the first decision that was made by a majority vote—the vote was recorded—the objection of Deputy Collins, and the subsequent reference of the matter by me to the Ceann Comhairle, all of which led up to the first report, No. 1 of our proceedings. Thereafter, everything is on record.
It was a very pleasant job and a happy job to have the privilege of presiding here. I would like particularly to thank the Minister, not only for the help he gave us, but for his help outside the Committee when we approached him on different points and discussed them informally, as we frequently did, with a view to the next meeting. Secondly, I would thank him for his willingness at all stages to consider points of view, even when he had made up his own mind for good reasons that he could not accept those views. I do not think there was any occasion where the Minister refused to consider a matter, and he has very many items which he has already considered and will consider for the Report Stage. We are very grateful for the Minister's attitude in that regard. I think it was the first requisite to making our proceedings a success.
I would like very specially to join in what has been said by the Minister and Deputy Collins about Deputy Cowan. It is more to Deputy Cowan, after the Minister on his part, than to anyone else on this Committee, that such success as we have had has been due. Deputy Cowan's industry and energy were responsible for raising practically every point that was raised in this debate. I think there were very few points raised independently of some point made by Deputy Cowan.
He gave it microscopic examination.
It showed his extensive knowledge of Army matters, and particularly of the administrative and legal aspects, and it is also a tribute to his energy as a member of the Committee. After that it was his method of presenting his points here which was very helpful and conductive to the good atmosphere we had here at all times.
There are other members of the Committee I would like to thank, particularly certain very regular attenders who were here and whose views were expressed not frequently but at the critical moment and whose views really decided the line taken in the end, and who had practically 100 per cent. attendances. I think it should go on record that their contribution to the proceedings was greater perhaps than will appear from a mere cursory reading of the reports.
Last, but not least, I would like to thank Deputy Collins for having proposed me as Chairman. One feature of the Committee was the objective approach which was made here by all Deputies irrespective of Party allegiance in the House. That objective approach to the matters in question, considering the points objectively as part of the job in hand, was a big contributing factor in the smooth working of the Committee, and I hope that that will be preserved for the future.
A last remark about proceedings : Apart from the expedition of getting a Bill of this nature through Committee, I think it is valuable that we should have had our records for the reason that when the Bill comes to Report Stage it will be much easier for Deputies in the House generally to get a picture of the Bill. Instead of having to search through disjointed reports split up through the proceedings of the Dáil, they will now find in one volume a commentary on the Bill, which is an immediate brief to any Deputy who is interested. Also it will facilitate the members of the Committee and make it easier for them to keep ahead of it when the matter comes up in the House itself. This is a matter which should not be lost sight of.
With these remarks I conclude, again thanking all the members of the Committe for their co-operation, and for making my task so easy. I am very pleased to have had the privilege of presiding here, and I feel that we have done a reasonably good job of work.
We have records of every meeting. I should like them brought into book form if it can be done.
I am sure that they will be bound eventually.
Yes, with certain minor additions like the correction of typographical errors.
It will be like the Dáil debates.
I would like any member of the Committee who has revisions to make to make them and let the reports be finally brought into book form. It would be a valuable record, and would be of tremendous value later to members of the Army, particularly to young officers, who would have an opportunity of reading the discussions that took place here on the Bill.
The whole procedure of the Dáil debates will be followed. The records will be put into bound form.
They should be bound.
Mr. Collins
And made available as soon as possible. If the full report is made available early it will facilitate the Report Stage.
We will depend on the Clerk of the Committee to get it out as quickly as possible.
The Committee rose at 6 p.m.