The first matter we shall have to deal with will be the Second Schedule, which provides for persons to be registered upon passing a special examination. We are going to admit a number of people who are not going to be asked to pass a special examination. It will be necessary to alter this Second Schedule to include those who will be admitted to the register without examination.
SECOND SCHEDULE.
That is important, but I think it only arises after consideration of the applicants and their qualifications.
MINISTER
It would be quite wrong for us to amend Section 28 (1) by saying that the several persons named in the Second Schedule shall, on passing an examination held by the Board, be entitled to be registered and then make a new sub-section stating that the several persons named in the Third Schedule shall be entitled to be admitted without examination. It would be wrong to do that now without knowing whether or not there is anybody to go in the Third Schedule. We know of two cases in which, I think, a good claim has been established to go on the register, but I think those cases are not going to be very numerous. I think Deputy Thrift's suggestion is the better one. If we can get some agreement as to how we are going to deal with these individual cases, then, on consideration of the individual cases, we may come to the conclusion that some people should be admitted immediately without examination. Upon arriving at that conclusion we can amend the clause.
We will leave the consideration of Section 28 until we shall have considered the special cases and those included in the Second Schedule.
MINISTER
There is great difficulty over this whole matter for the reason I stated. It is an invidious thing to have long discussions over individual cases here. When a man's qualifications are discussed here, the impression may get abroad that he was just admitted and nothing more. That is not going to do the man much good professionally. The man whose case is talked about, and who is put off the register will not be so affected, because it cannot injure him professionally. In order to get over the difficulty of discussing individual cases, I announced to the House that I would set up a small Committee to investigate the different applications. I simply made the announcement to the House, and the House was in no way bound by it. I set up a small Committee consisting of two qualified dentists— that was how I described them—one representative of the Incorporated Dental Society and a Civil Service doctor, whom I asked to act as Chairman. I asked these men to take up the particular cases received by me, through the hands of Deputies, and diverted to them. I asked them to give me a report. I have here a report on 37 cases. Of these, three are described as being already on the Schedule. They are people who, in order to make assurance doubly sure, made application again. Five are recommended for inclusion in the Schedule, two are recommended for immediate registration, ten are postponed for further inquiry, and seventeen are rejected. We shall have to go into the details of these cases.
From whom did these recommendations come?
MINISTER
From this little Committee that I set up for my own assistance.
Do they give any grounds for rejecting those people?
MINISTER
They do. I could get Gestetner copies of the list made for each Deputy on the Committee. Deputies could consider the cases as set out there. I could also arrange to have the files and letters relating to each case made available for Deputies within the next couple of days. Deputies could then take the list and if they considered that any individual had been harshly treated by rejection or that any individual had been too generously treated, they could inquire into the case, refer to the files and get information perhaps from the individual for the purpose of pleading his case here. I do not think we can make any progress to-day because there are no names before the Committee except those in the Schedule. With the exception of the three duplicate applications, they are all new comers. Deputies may have heard of particular cases. We all got circulars regarding certain cases but, beyond that, I do not think anybody knows very much about the cases in question. Deputy Ward raised a particular case in the Dáil and I think the man he referred to is recommended for inclusion.
Does the Minister intend to bring any further cases before this Committee? I should be quite content to let this small Committee deal with the cases, in the first instance, but there must be a number of cases which they have not considered. When did they sit last?
MINISTER
They would have been sitting to-day but for the fact that this Committee is sitting.
They would have been sitting to consider cases?
MINISTER
Yes.
My point is that this Committee which the Minister has set up has not considered all the cases that might reasonably be expected to go before it.
MINISTER
They have received no new particulars about any cases, with one exception, for at least three weeks. On the 12th of the present month, they got an affidavit and further particulars about a case from Cork. With that exception the cases have been drifting into them from time to time from away back in May, when this Dental Bill was first before the Dáil. Cases have come to me through Deputies, and, eventually, these cases have gone to the Committee, but recently there have been no new cases.
Deputy Anthony spoke to me about the matter and he considered that it would be almost necessary to issue an advertisement inviting the persons concerned to send in applications. We are aware that the majority of the men interested know that the Committee has been set up and have sent in their applications.
MINISTER
They will have another chance. If we report back to the Dáil and if the Bill leaves the Dáil before Christmas, it will hang over until the new year when it will come before the Seanad. The persons concerned can make application when the Bill is going through the Seanad at any Stage and a similar Committee can be set up there and the applications referred to them. This is not an ordinary contentious measure. There may be small points of difference about it, but there is no serious difference.
What the Minister has said is fairly satisfactory. Copies of the particulars of these cases can be typed and sent to each member of the Committee. We can look over them and see if there are any cases that have been accepted or rejected which should not be so accepted or rejected.
It would be only right, in my opinion, to issue an advertisement inviting those concerned to send in applications. There may be a few individuals who would be entitled to be on the register but who do not know anything about the procedure.
Are those 37 cases additional to those in the Bill?
MINISTER
Except three. There are 34 in addition.
The great objection to advertising is that it delays matters considerably. If you advertise you will have to allow a fortnight for people to prepare their case and send them in.
In view of what the Minister has said, that it would be competent for the Committee to receive applications from persons who have not applied up to the present, it would be well to advertise. I desire to emphasise the point made by the Minister that it would be competent for persons to apply while the Bill is in progress through the two Houses. I was not aware of that until now and the people concerned are probably not aware of it.
We might be inundated with applications from people who have been already rejected by the Committee and I do not think we should consider cases which have been properly rejected. If there is any applicant who has a special case to make, it would be all right to consider it but I do not think we should go over all the cases which have already been rejected.
MINISTER
If the point as to advertising is to be raised, it should be raised in the Dáil. We should confine ourselves to the Second Schedule and the Section relating to it. When we report back, any Deputy could move that there should be a further postponement and notice issued through the Press to the persons concerned.
We, as a Committee of the Dáil, have no power to spend money on advertising. The Minister, of course, would have that power.
Have we no power to recommend that this be done?
Yes. We could make a recommendation.
I think there is no necessity to advertise. I think, with Sir James Craig, that if we advertised we would be deluged with applications with which we would be dealing for a couple of months.
And we would have applications from people to be allowed to appear before this Committee or to be heard by counsel.
MINISTER
I have one application to be registered as a dentist from a hardware merchant. As it seemed to him to be easy to get registered, he thought he might as well get the qualification.
I think we cannot get much further until we know the names on the Minister's list. When we have knowledge of those names, it will be open to any member of the Committee to put forward amendments to the Minister's list. Those amendments should, as far as possible, be in the form in which the list is set out and should be sent to the Clerk.
Deputy DOYLE
Can we assume that this list has all the names that it will be possible to get on.
MINISTER
It will be for each Deputy to investigate for himself when he gets the list. There is only one difficulty about the list. If it is going to be circulated and to become a Committee document, it will presumably have to be printed.
Typewritten copies would do.
MINISTER
The point I wish to make is that if it becomes a Committee document it will appear in the Official Report, and I should prefer that it would not appear there at present. If it is to appear in the Official Report, I shall have to confine my list to the names of those who are accepted or postponed for further inquiry. I do not want to be putting down the names of people who apply and who are not recommended for inclusion either on the register directly or on the register after examination.
Have we not a choice as to whether or not we will have that list included in the Official Report?
We have. In the Committee of Public Accounts the Chairman, in exercise of his discretion, directs the reporters not to take a note of matters which the Committee consider it inadvisable to publish.
MINISTER
The form I have here is—the name of the individual, with some particulars, then a statement as to whether the man's case is considered a good one or whether it is rejected. If it is rejected there is generally a reason given. In fact, even in the case of a recommendation for inclusion, there is a reason given. It will be for Deputies to say if there is any other name that may be brought forward which is not on this list. After that, there will be the question whether any man has been harshly treated or has been too leniently treated. I could arrange to have the documents concerning the cases located somewhere to suit the convenience of the Committee.
The Library is the most convenient place.
MINISTER
Documents in the Library are open to all Deputies, and I think we should confine these documents to Deputies who are serving on this Committee. I will make arrangements, through the Secretary, to have the documents located in some convenient place, so that Deputies will have access to them readily.
We have a precedent in the case of the Committee on Wireless Broadcasting. The Secretary of the Committee was, in that case, charged with the possession of the documents. When we come to consider those individual cases, we can have a note inserted in the Official Report saying " The Committee then proceeded to consider individual cases." We need not have any note taken of our discussion. It would be very unfair to certain individuals if we were to have our discussion of their cases reported.
There is a list given in the Second Schedule of persons whose entry on the register depends upon their passing a special examination. Are those men entitled to practise until such time as they pass that special examination or are they not so entitled?
MINISTER
As the matter stands, they are only entitled to be registered upon passing the special examination. They cannot practise until they are registered.
That is a very important point. These men are deprived of practice until such time as they pass this examination.
If you consult the Clerk, he will help you to draft an amendment on which we can discuss that point.
I only wanted to know what the Minister's attitude was with regard to the matter. I should like to know what the feeling of the rest of the Committee is. If a man is in practice, would it not be advisable to let him continue in practice?
Will those men who are in practice have to suspend practice until such time as they pass the examination? This point is very important?
The presumption was that the Dental Board would arrange the details of the examination, but that does not appear to be provided.
MINISTER
According to Section 28 (1) the examination is to be prescribed and held by the Dental Board. The examination is to be held within seven years of the passing of the Act. The only point I see is that the Board could, if they so desired, keep them over for six and a half years.
When they would have lost all their professional connection.
Does the Minister consider that we should make a change at this Committee or should we wait until the Report Stage? We shall have to clear the matter up some way.
MINISTER
It is quite clear.
It is clear, but I do not think it is satisfactory.
We can amend the Section here. It is only necessary to put down an amendment to Section 28.
It would be well to have the matter settled one way or another.
MINISTER
The background of the whole thing is the protection of the public, and it is the aim of the Bill not to allow people who are unqualified to continue mangling the public until they are able, by the process of mangling, to get qualified.
Seeing they have been mangling the public so long, will it matter to allow them an additional few months?
These people admitted to the Second Schedule are people who will only be entitled to get on the register after passing an examination. They are in a different category from the people rejected. A lot of these people have business in hand and if they have to go out of business for two or three years, until they pass their examination, their practice will have gone west. I think it would be a very serious grievance and a great hardship if we did not make some provision to enable them to practise until they pass the necessary examination.
I agree. We would want to look into the whole Section very carefully. If you allow them to practise until they pass, it would leave them about 6½ years.
We might arrive at an arrangement by which we would allow them to practise for a period of less than 7 years.
MINISTER
If you say that they can practise only until such time as they are registered after examination, you may spur the Dental Board on to fix the examination in a very short time, whereas, as the Section stands, they might leave it over for seven years. That is not, of course, very likely.
I have great sympathy with the Minister's attitude, and Deputy Keogh has strengthened my view. He says that the majority of these men are not in practice and are misfits, and that they could have passed the examination. He is referring to the Second Schedule. They had opportunities of passing examinations at any time within the last three years. If it is likely these men are not going to get on the register, it would be bad to keep them in practice and strike them off after a time.
With regard to examinations, take the case of the men who work for the profession—factors who do the mechanical work for dentists in the country. There are a number of these men who will not go on the register lest the practising dentists should say they were taking something from them. If their names were on the register they might be thought to be scabbing on the dentist. There are other men who were never in dentists' establishments at all except by reason of the fact that they are sons of their fathers and become polling clerks or something like that at election time. The examination really is the next thing to a humbug and is quite a formality. The men who present themselves for examination are practically never sent down. I know of men who could not sign their names in the ordinary way and whenever they did write their names had to do so in block letters. When they went to Manchester for examination they got through.
But the Board in the Saorstát may not be as generous to them as all that.
We have copies of the proceedings of the Manchester Body and verbatim reports of the Committee that sat. After six months the Act becomes law, and they have two opportunities of examination. After six months this becomes operative, and they have an opportunity of doing something in the meantime.
Do you suggest six months?
I read very carefully, and parsed, as it were, the proceedings of the Committee similar to this that sat in England. After six months the whole Act came into force, and if a man did not get through at first he was allowed to sit a second time. They gave the men every possible chance. The examination was really a farce and the man might not sit for the examination at all if he had been a member of the Incorporated Dental Society, and men who were such members and had paid £2 in advance were taken over holus bolus.
Men are going to get a chance to come on the register here, and the point is, if they are in practice, will they be allowed to continue to practise until such time as they pass an examination to enable them to get on the register.
If they are in practice not less than six years, two hours of an examination will get them through.
There are, I think, three courses open to us—(1) the course outlined in the Bill, that they should cease to practise up to passing the examination under the Act; (2) that there should be a period of grace during which they should be allowed to practise, and (3) that they should be entitled to practise until they do pass. I think the second course is the most desirable, namely, that there should be a period of grace, but not as long as seven years.
Deputy DOYLE
I support that view.
They should be asked to come in in six months. The others will not enter at all. If they made any show they would be entitled to apply again.
MINISTER
I think it is reasonable enough to say to those people that they are admitted more or less as an act of grace—that at the moment there is no evidence of the qualifications they say they possess. I think it is no hardship if such a person has to take down his brass plate until such time as he gives evidence of his qualification. Even if there is that hardship, there is the balancing consideration to him that he is going to be let into the ranks as a qualified dentist hereafter and to be put in the way of his professional livelihood for the future.
My difficulty is that the Dental Board need not hold an examination for 6½ years.
MINISTER
That is a matter for Deputies themselves to have amended, if they think it should be amended. My obligation now is to circulate the names to members of the Committee.
And we can discuss them afterwards. I thought it better that we should have this discussion to clarify the minds of the members of the Committee, so that they might be able to draft amendments relating to the points that they wish to deal with.
At present I do not feel inclined to draft any amendment but I feel that we ought to have something definite with regard to practising in the period before these men get their examination.
Would we not have general agreement in allowing them to practise for a year?
There does not appear to be agreement on the part of the Minister?
MINISTER
I do not see that there is any principle involved in this. But I see no case of hardship made with regard to any of those people which would sway me to depart from the decision arrived at in the Bill, namely that they must come off until they pass their examination. Of course, there is some degree of hardship.
Would it not be possible to have them licensed for a period until such time as they do pass? They could be licensed in the meantime to practise.
As I understand it, these men are only mechanical dentists— men who spent their entire time as mechanical dentists.
Have any of these men had any surgical practice.
Yes, they all have had.
Some of them extract teeth and that is a surgical operation. The majority of them spent a couple of years at mechanical dentistry and some time in the surgery, where they often take the place of the L.D.S.I. when he is out at lunch or otherwise called away. If these men have been in practice for a period, I think it would be only fair they should get a licence to continue until such time as they pass their examination.
It should be a limited time, and if it was I would agree to that.
After all, we must protect the public against quacks.
That is the point we are all making.
In the case of Manchester, those who are examined have a second chance; they can come up again for examination, and most of them get through.
Would Dr Keogh give us some idea of what the examination would be like. Supposing a man is over forty years of age and practising for a period and applies to be admitted under the Schedule, would the examination inflict a hardship upon him?
No; it would not.
Of course, a man of forty would take a longer time to study for a particular examination than a younger man.
How are we to know what the examination will be like here?
It has been on for the last four years on the other side.
MINISTER
You could answer Deputy Anthony by answering this question: Have you any record of a man entitled to be registered on passing a special examination who failed to pass that examination.
No. No man ever failed. In some cases, candidates had to come up twice.
Was that in connection with the British examination?
Yes.
Will the standard be higher in our case?
MINISTER
All that is provided in the Bill is an examination to be prescribed and held by the Board within seven years after the passing of the Act. It is entirely in the hands of the Board.
Yes, but will it be of a higher standard and will it inflict hardship?
MINISTER
I do not think so. The attitude of both the Dental Bodies is that they want finality. But remember there is the other side of the subject. The Board might decide on a complete professional examination, such as a man would have in a four years' course in a dental school.
Was any practical point gained by the British examination?
MINISTER
Yes, because it sharpened these men up. There were certain deficiencies in the training some of these men got. They took up schooling themselves, and made themselves better applicants. There was something gained.
There was a qualified dentist here, and he held classes three nights a week and gave his students an idea of what the examination would be like. If we put a provision in the Bill it would bind the Board as to the type of the examination.
MINISTER
I would rather leave these matters to the Board.
The Board will be fair, but there are hundreds of men who never apply a second time. They pay their £5 once, and would not pay it again. It is a greater difficulty to get back on the register than to get on it in the first instance.
MINISTER
I want to put it to Deputies that if anyone thinks there is any hardship in the examination or that any hardship would be involved in preventing a man from practising until he passes the examination, then it is for that Deputy to put down an amendment.
I do not think we can go any further to-day. If Deputies wish to put down amendments, the Clerk will help them to draft them. I would like to have amendments for different qualifying periods.
In 1921 there were three dental dep�ts in Dublin, and you could not be a dentist without having to deal through those. They swore affidavits that they had supplied men with a certain amount of materials during the five years preceding. There was, therefore, a means of checking statements, and there was a penalty for false declarations.
That would be for the Board and not for the Committee to deal with.
It is understood that at a later period we shall be able to put in the Third Schedule the names of persons that are entitled to be placed on the register without examination.
Of course, it would be open to any Deputy or any members of the Committee to move that names should be added.
MINISTER
Or that the names of persons should be transferred from the Second to the Third Schedule.
I do not think we can usefully go any further to-day.
The Committee adjourned at 11.55 a.m. until Thursday, 17th November 11 o'clock