We will take amendments Nos. 70 and 71 together.
SECTION 125.
I move amendment No. 70 :—
Before Section 125 to insert a new section as follows :—
(1) There shall be a council consisting of a chairman and eight ordinary members (in this section referred to as the advisory council) to perform the functions assigned to it by this section.
(2) The advisory council shall consider, and advise the Minister on, any matters arising on or in relation to the execution of this Act (including any proposals by the Minister to make, amend or revoke any orders or regulations under this Act) which the Minister may refer to the council.
(3) The advisory council may, as they consider necessary from time to time, advise the Minister on :—
(a) the desirability of making, amending or revoking any orders or regulations under this Act,
(b) matters relating to the enforcement of the provisions of this Act or of orders or regulations made under this Act,
(c) the organisation or promotion of safety and welfare campaigns among employees and employers,
(d) the organisation of lectures, film shows or exhibitions, the publication of posters or pamphlets or any other measures, being lectures, film shows, exhibitions, posters, pamphlets or measures designed to educate employees and employers on questions of safety and welfare in factories and on methods of safeguarding and improving the health of workers.
(4) The chairman and the ordinary members of the advisory council shall be appointed by the Minister.
(5) The first such appointment shall be made as soon as conveniently may be after the commencement of this Act and subsequent appointments shall be made from time to time as occasion requires.
(6) In appointing persons to be ordinary members of the advisory council, the Minister shall include persons representative of organisations of employees and of organisations of employers.
(7) The chairman and the ordinary members of the advisory council shall hold office for such period as the Minister may decide.
I think this is self-explanatory. You will see the functions which I have set out as the functions of the proposed advisory committee and also the functions which Deputy Larkin seeks to give to the advisory committee.
Mr. Lemass
There are just these two points. We have considered in relation to other sections the desirability of giving this advisory council functions in relation to drawing up specimens or typical rules for factory safety committees and the possibility of giving them power to make an independent report to the Dáil. I take it these matters will be examined further. Is there or would there be power under any other provisions to enable the Minister to pay travelling expenses to members of this committee. There will, I think, be a feeling that the members of the committee should not be drawn exclusively from Dublin, as there are likely to be problems in connection with the enforcement of this Act outside Dublin which may be different from those in Dublin. If there were people appointed to this advisory committee say from Cork, Donegal or Galway, it might be necessary to provide for their travelling and subsistence when attending meetings.
We did not put this in specially in connection with the operations of the advisory council, but we intend to meet the situation by making provision in the departmental vote for the present for the expenses involved.
I want to point out the difference that exists between the Ministerial amendment and mine.
Can we localise the points in this matter. Is amendment No. 70 generally acceptable except that it has some shortcomings so far as Deputy Larkin is concerned.
Only in reference to paragraphs (c) and (f) of my amendment dealing with the question of factory inspection. Otherwise I think it is generally acceptable. So far as the advisory council is concerned it has a number of functions to serve ; one is to advise the Minister in relation to the various regulations made from time to time ; the second is to act as a body by receiving and, if you like, sorting out and considering the representations which may be made from time to time by representatives of employers or employees ; the third, which is very important, is the organisation of what you might generally term a safety campaign. I urge they could have another very important function which has been the subject of complaint from time to time, that is, to form a connecting link between representatives of employers and employees and the actual enforcement branch of the Department so far as the Act is concerned.
The Minister will be aware, and also Deputy Lemass, that time after time there have been complaints in regard to the difficulties which particularly the trade unions have experienced in getting any close contact with the enforcement branch of the Department, and, as I have mentioned before, of being able to follow up the course of complaints which they have made to the inspectors. I take it it is our general desire, having passed the Bill, to secure this enforcement as completely as possible and there is no doubt that to the extent that we can draw in around the inspectors existing organisations in industry whether they be of employers or employees, the greater will be the help to inspection. The advisory council is intended to make possible this advisory machinery for the benefit of the Minister which will be representative of the two sides in industry, but the enforcement by the inspectorial branch is also of very great importance. It would be of considerable assistance if it were possible to provide some link—maybe the way I suggested is not the best way—between the advisory council and the inspectorial branch.
One of the objections which I understand might be made would be a liability to a division of authority between the Minister and the advisory council in regard to the actual duties of the inspector. That is not what I have in mind at all. In paragraph (b) in regard to the consideration by the advisory council of complaints received by them, I have not in mind that the ordinary individual complaints that are sent in the ordinary way to the inspectors for their consideration would be canalised to the advisory council. I am thinking rather of complaints of a general and more serious character by representative organisations dealing with specific sections of the Act and sections of the general code which could be considered by the advisory council and arising out of which they would be able to make reports to the Minister.
It is also important that they would have an opportunity of receiving at first hand, particularly if you are going to have a chief inspector, the views of the inspectorial branch on the difficulties the inspectors may meet with from time to time. If we are going to constitute an advisory council and we do not provide some definite link between the advisory council and the inspectorial branch we are leaving a fairly large defect there.
I notice in the Minister's amendment that in paragraph (b) he refers to : matters relating to the enforcement of the provisions of this Act or of orders or regulations made under this Act ". That is very wide in this context and I would like to narrow it much more so as to make the question of the enforcement a direct link particularly with the chief inspector. My purpose is, in fact, through the advisory council, to try to draw in for the assistance of the inspectors the existing trade union machinery in particular, which could be of very considerable help to them.
We have already provided for the appointment of safety committees in the actual factories and we also provided for the inspector utilising the services of the safety delegate. It appears to me that having applied that principle so as to try to give assistance of that type to the inspector, we should also apply the principle in some accepted form at the top where the advisory council will function. I think it could be a very valuable factor if it were only developed.
We both accept the view that this council should be advisory, that its functions are to advise the Minister from time to time either on its own initative or at the Minister's request on matters referred to him. It seems to me, however, that Deputy Larkin's amendment in sub-section (f) changes the character of the advisory committee and gives it executive functions because he says the council should have the power to consider complaints received by them of breaches of the provisions of this Act. There is no purpose in considering these complaints unless they have power to remedy them. If the committee receives a complaint, refers it to the inspector and receives a report from him, it is presumably with a view to taking action, and that makes the committee an executive committee discharging an administrative function. That is in conflict with the whole idea of an advisory committee and I do not think it would make for the most efficient working. We would have an advisory committee dealing with some complaints and we might have a Department dealing perhaps with the same or a related complaint as a matter of ordinary administration. There seems to be a conflict there. Besides, this sub-section in Deputy Larkin's amendment presupposes that the inspector is responsible to the committee, that they can ask him to report and can get a report from him ; presumably they can ask him about the character of his report, perhaps complain about the deficiencies in the report. That would make an official of the Minister of Industry and Commerce, whoever he might be, liable to come under the control of a body which is really set up for the purpose of advising the Minister. The advisory officials would be acting as officers who had some direct authority over the Minster's own staff.
I am putting this objection up not as a point of punctilio but because I think in any set of circumstances it is not the best kind of provision to make. If you can show me what other way I can make the committee discharge functions of advantage to the whole question of factory legislation I would be glad to consider the matter. I propose to put representatives of employers and of trade union organisations on the advisory committee and I think that is a substantial step forward. If there is any other way in which you think further advances might be made without putting the advisory council in the position of being an advisory council in some sense and an executive body in another, I will be glad to look at it.
I take it, so far as sub-paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of amendment No. 71 is concerned, that there cannot be very great objection to it. It merely provides that the Minister shall appoint an advisory council to consider any orders or regulations which the Minister may propose to make and which he may refer to them for the purpose of advising him thereon, I can see that sub-paragraph (f) of sub-section (1) of Section 71 is open to certain objections. What I have in mind is this. Suppose that at a meeting of the advisory council a member raises a question in regard to some new problem in respect of a branch of industry or the difficulties of applying certain provisions of the Act. The advisory council would like to have something in the nature of a factual report on this particular problem, when they would be in a position to consider the matter and advise the Minister. As it stands at the moment, it would appear that they would have no possibility of having the services of, say, an inspector from the inspectorial branch made available for that purpose except by the long procedure of making a report, having the Department consider it and so forth. If, on the other hand, it were possible for them to avail of the services—even, say, by request—of the chief inspector, they could get that report and then, depending on what the report was, they would be in a position to consider and advise the Minister. That is what I am aiming at. I have not in mind the question of receiving, say, mere reports on individual groups of workers in relation to specific breaches of the Act but rather that a person from the inspectorial branch would be there to assist them in acquiring knowledge. Take as an example a complaint made in respect of the textile industry. If a submission is made to the advisory council that some new process is giving rise to difficulties, it would not be very easy for the advisory council to collect material evidence : it is not even easy for the trade unionists to do it. In my view, contact should be made between the council and, if you like, the chief inspector.
Mr. Lemass
The Committee could receive a complaint that some safeguard had been removed in respect of an individual machine in a named factory.
May I put another point to the Committee. Supposing, in relation to the Minister's amendment, that the advisory council would desire to have the chief inspector attend their meetings for the purpose of advising and giving guidance. Is that possible ?
Yes. By all means. I will make the chief inspector available at any time the advisory council so request for the purpose of giving the advisory council any information they want or elucidating any point on which they are not clear.
Would they also have power to request the chief inspector to furnish a report on any particular matter of general and wide concern ? I am no thinking of individual concern——
I think we could travel a long distance on that road.
Mr. Lemass
Through the Minister. The arrangement would have to provide that the power of the committee to require a report on a specific administration matter would involve the Minister rather than the officials.
Is it sufficient if I say here for the purpose of this sub-section that when the advisory council so desires we will make an inspector or chief inspector available at any time the committee requires it, within reason, for the purpose of giving them information relating to factory legislation generally or elucidating any point in which the committee needs elucidation.
Would it not be desirable to provide for the attendance of the chief inspector at the meetings of the advisory council if they want the special report ?
If they want the special report they could then submit a request to the Minister in the ordinary way through the chief inspector.
I do not mind, provided he is not permanently in attendance. Are you satisfied, Deputy Larkin, with such an assurance or do you want it in the Bill ?
I should like to have something in the Bill with regard to the possibility of having the chief inspector present at the council meetings from time to time, and secondly, I should like provision to be made whereby they could request a submission of reports through the Minister. I am trying to get a link-up with the inspectorial branch. I think that is very important.
Mr. Lemass
Amendment No. 70 is satisfactory from my point of view. I was going to inquire if there is need to put on the Minister an obligation to provide for secretarial arrangements—or is that done in the normal course ?
I presume we will second an officer from the Department. If the Committee find that this amendment No. 70 is generally acceptable I will look at the matter further.
Mr. Lemass
I think it covers fully the point in paragraph (e) of Deputy Larkin's amendment, which reads :—
The Minister shall appoint an advisory council to advise the Minister on matters relating to the functions of inspectors authorised under this Act and in particular on the enforcement of the provisions of this Act and of orders, regulations, and special regulations made under this Act.
I will travel this far with the Deputy. The Minister may make available the services of an officer of the Department for the purpose of consultation with the council.
If the officer is an inspector, yes.
I should not think it would be anybody else.
It might.
Would the Committee generally agree to taking power to make an inspector available for that purpose ?
Mr. Lemass
In relation to the general question of the legislation and the regulations : not in relation to the specific activities.
Amendment No. 70 put and agreed to.
Amendment No. 71 not moved.
I move amendment No. 72 :—
To delete sub-section (3).
This amendment is moved because in the Bill it is sought to apply the Coal Mines Act, 1911, to women and young children employed above ground in connection with any quarry and metal-liferous mines.
Section 125, as amended, put and agree to.
First, Second and Third Schedules and Title put and agreed to.
Would the Minister consider that it would be more convenient, in the case of any new factory building, to give the approval of plans ? If plans are prepared for a new factory, it does not necessarily mean that they comply with the regulations under the Act. I cannot see that it would mean any difficulty or increased expense on the erector of the new factory because, under the Town Planning Acts and so forth, he has to submit the plans to the local authority. Could provision not be made under this Bill whereby approval would be given by the Department or officers of the Department ?
The Deputy is now seeking to put on the Department of Industry and Commerce responsibility for functions which belong to other Departments. I think that would involve wide consultations on matters of high policy as to whether or not it would be desirable that the Department of Industry and Commerce should take on functions of that kind. If it is suggested that the Department should see the factory plans before the factory is put up, I think that that is giving hostages to fortune. It would put us in the position of pre-judging the suitability of the premises and get us into headlong collision with the local authorities and the Department of Local Government who have functions in a matter of this kind.
I think that the discussion on this matter is out of order. Deputy O'Malley will have an opportunity of discussing the matter further on the Report Stage in the Dáil. I propose that the report of the Committee to the Dáil be that the said Committee have gone through the Bill and made amendments thereto.
Agreed that the Bill, as amended, be returned to the Dáil.
I desire to express my sincere thanks to the members of the Committee for their help and co-operation in the discussion of the Bill. I hope it will serve as a pattern for many more of the same kind of technical Bills.