The Chairperson is unavoidably absent and in accordance with Standing Orders I must ask for nominations for temporary chairperson.
Election of temporary chairperson
Clerk to the Committee
I propose Deputy Dermot Ahern.
I propose Deputy Charles Flanagan.
Clerk to the Committee
The first nomination is that Deputy Dermot Ahern act as temporary chairman. Is that agreed?
Deputy Durkan proposed Deputy Flanagan and I second that.
Clerk to the Committee
The first question to be decided is——
I think there was an agreement in this committee that the Fine Gael group would chair the meetings of the committee and the chairperson has been Deputy Madeline Taylor-Quinn. She is not available today and it seems rather an unusual procedure that we should start having a vote now on who should chair the committee in the absence of the chairperson.
Clerk to the Committee
If I may interrupt you, the first item on the agenda is the election of a temporary chairman. That is standard procedure.
I am just appealing to Deputies opposite. At the time this committee was formed the position was that there was some confusion at the start of it because the Minister did not realise there had been an agreement between the Whips of the two parties that Fine Gael would chair the committee. I am sure other members will recall that. We ended up having a 20 minute adjournment while it was checked with the Whips what the position is. If I could, through the temporary chairperson, just appeal to members opposite. There is an agreement between the Whips in both parties that that is the position. In those circumstances it would be the usual procedure that in the absence of a Deputy from this side that this side would nominate the substitute chairman. It is not something about which there should be a vote and I ask that we put back the matter for five minutes, that we adjourn for five minutes, so that we can have an informal discussion about the position.
My understanding was that select committees operate on a slightly different basis from Joint Oireachtas committees, where you can, under Standing Orders, appoint a vice chairman and, in fact, do it at the first meeting of such a Joint Oireachtas committee. The same situation does not arise in a select committee where you appoint a chairperson and if the chairperson is unavoidably absent, the committee as a whole decide who chairs that particular meeting. That was the basis on which I made the proposal and I wish you to put the proposal to the meeting, please.
Clerk to the Committee
I must put the question: "That Deputy Dermot Ahern be appointed temporary chairman".
Question put and declared carried.
(Deputy D. Ahern took the Chair).
I had intended to make a proposal, first, in relation to the committee meeting today, that is, that the Minister for Justice, as we all know, is very involved in the Intoxicating Liquor Bill in the Dáil and will be for the afternoon and I understand that an approach was made by the Fianna Fáil Whip to the Fine Gael Whip which was received very well by that particular person, that the meeting today would be postponed for 24 hours and be recalled tomorrow on the basis that the Minister would be here then. I was not aware at the time of this particular difficulty in relation to Standing Orders but I would like to put that motion now. The Minister is obviously the one who is most au faitwith all of this; he is the one responsible for taking the Bill on behalf of the Government; he is not able to be here with us this afternoon. Neither in fact is the Opposition spokesperson on Justice, Deputy Barrett, nor, indeed, the Labour spokesperson on Justice, Deputy Taylor. So I feel that in the interests of having a debate which would be informed and one in which all of us could participate and, in particular, the Minister could participate, the meeting should be postponed for just 24 hours, until tomorrow, to allow all of the particular spokespersons to be here.
I second that.
Could I respond to that? This committee first started to meet in the beginning of April and at the suggestion of the Minister, to facilitate the Minister, so that he was able to arrange his schedule will in advance, it was agreed that this committee would meet every second week from 4 p.m. until 6 p.m. on a Wednesday. All Deputies on this committee, including the Minister, were agreeable to that proposal. Some of us would have wished that this committee meet more frequently, but we all appreciated the difficulties the Minister has. Two weeks ago there was a meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference and the Minister requested that the meeting be postponed for a week to facilitate him and he was so facilitated. The meeting of this committee was postponed and took place last Wednesday. It seems that at this stage the Minister is playing ducks and drakes with this committee. The position appears to be——
Chairperson
I would just like to point out that the Courts Bill was also on that day. So it was not just because of the non-availability of the Minister. Quite a number of members of this committee were involved in that Bill.
That is very helpful because I am going to point out something about the Courts Bill. On the day of the Anglo-Irish Conference meeting two weeks ago the Courts Bill, relating to the abolition of juries, was before the Oireachtas in Committee Stage and the Minister had no difficulty in nominating Minister Michael Woods to act in his stead for the entirety of the day in the Dáil in the processing of the Courts Bill. That gave rise apparently to no difficulties of any nature whatsoever. It is quite usual that when a Minister is detained on Government business an appointee substitute Minister is put forward, I was asked yesterday by the Minister's office if we would adjourn this meeting today.
For 24 hours.
For 24 hours. I pointed out to the Minister's office, in all good faith, that I felt other members of this committee would have made other arrangements and would have ordered their week on an assumption that this meeting would take place today and that I did not know and could not agree on behalf of other members of the committee to meeting at 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. I am personally quite happy to have a meeting at 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. It does not in any way inconvenience me but I did not want a situation to arise where four or five other members of this committee, who anticipated a meeting today and would be otherwise involved tomorrow, could not attend tomorrow and that we lose a further week in meetings. I take the view on a personal level, and some of the members of this committee might agree with me, that the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Bill is a more pressing and urgent and more important measure than the Intoxicating Liquor Bill and that this Bill deserves a priority over that measure.
I secondly take the view that if it was appropriate at a time when the Minister for Justice was attending at the Anglo-Irish Conference, for Deputy Woods to carry Committee Stage of an important Courts Bill abolishing juries, Deputy Woods or another Government Minister is equally able to substitute for the Minister for Justice on this committee. I am also conscious of the fact that next week, it is apparently going to be the Juries Bill again and what I am concerned about — I do not wish to be unnecessarily difficult — is that this committee seems to have set a schedule of meetings that everyone on the committee is willing to comply with, including other parties who have appointed substitutes for today, but which the Minister is not prepared to comply with.
I am anxious about a number of things. If we are going to adjourn now until 4 p.m. tomorrow afternoon, I am anxious to ensure, first, that other Deputies who have been good enough to turn up today will be available for 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. That is an important matter to ascertain. Secondly, some explanation should be given as to why the Government feel it appropriate to substitute other Ministers in the House for the Juries Bill in processing Committee Stage, but they cannot do so for this Bill. Thirdly, I am anxious to ensure that we complete the Committee Stage of this Bill well before the Dáil resumes after the summer recess. If we on this side of the House are to continue to facilitate the Minister by adjourning and chopping and changing the times of meetings I want some confirmation from the other side of the House that the Opposition Deputies on this committee and the party proposing this Bill will be facilitated by the Minister and by the Fianna Fáil Deputies agreeing to a series of full one day sittings during the month of July so that we complete the Committee Stage of this Bill during the month of July. If we can get that commitment we will be more than happy to facilitate the Minister. Our concern is that we will lose out on meetings ultimately and that, instead of our completing Committee Stage before the long summer vacation, this Bill will end up going onto a back burner until some time in the autumn. We are quite happy to come some of the way and help the Minister but we want some assurances that we will have his and Fianna Fáil's cooperation in holding meetings during the month of July so that we can complete Committee Stage during that month and ensure that this Bill can go into Report Stage in the very early autumn and then go to the Seanad and complete its passage through the Oireachtas before the end of this year.
I am merely proposing a postponement of 24 hours until tomorrow.
I am agreeable to that. If the committee are agreeable we should leave it at that.
The schedule of meetings which Deputy Shatter spoke about, which was to have been settled today, can also be settled tomorrow. On a personal note — Deputy Barnes will bear me out on this — I was chairperson of a committee of which she was vice-chairperson which met all during July and September.
I am happy to agree to an adjournment until 4 o'clock tomorrow, but I would ask that a message go to the Minister that the members of this committee wish to ensure that at the conclusion of the meeting tomorrow we set up a series of meetings to take place during the month of July both for the sake of the people outside this House who look to this Bill to provide them with help and for the sake of the members of this committee who wish to see some time-scale for concluding Committee Stage and getting the Bill fully processed and finalised.
Question put and agreed to.
The committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Thursday, 19 May 1988.