As you are aware, by order of the Dáil on 29 November, the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Bill has been recommitted to the former Special Committee of which all of you have been members. We will consider the Bill as it has been amended on Report prior to its recommittal, that is section by section, and amendments may be submitted as for a first Committee Stage and the procedures applicable then will, of course, still apply. I would like proposals from the meeting as to how we might conduct our business.
JUDICIAL SEPARATION AND FAMILY LAW REFORM BILL, 1987
Chairperson
I think probably all we can do today is fix a date to have the first substantive meeting and I assume also fix a date by which amendments need to be tabled so that we can get on with the work that has to be done. I would suggest if possible, Chairperson, that we arrange to have a meeting before the Dáil reconvenes after the Christmas recess so that we have an opportunity to get down to it. One would hope that this session will not take as long as the preceding Committee Stage took.
I would just like to say that the issues in regard to this piece of legislation are very well debated and have been clarified and identified by both bodies of opinion. I think both sides of the debate now need to take a realistic stock of where each other stands. I would hope that we could proceed with this Special Committee quickly and to the point and that we will not take anything like the time it took to get through the previous committee. In particular, I would suggest that it is perhaps desirable, if not incumbent on the Minister and the mover of the Bill, Deputy Shatter, to meet before the first meeting that we will fix here this evening, to see if there is common cause between the sides. I certainly would hope in coming back here that we could reach general agreement on what is possible and what is not possible under this legislation and come back, by assent, to our first meeting and we could be out of here and back to the Dáil within a very short period of time.
I remember on the night of the vote word drifted across that suggested that this piece of legislation was now doomed to be buried, that it would not see the light of day in the Dáil again for a year or two. I think the words "two years" came over to me, if I heard them correctly. I hope that we have got over that, that that was something to do perhaps with the night that was in it. I want to see this legislation back into the House without delay and I hope we are talking about a matter of weeks at the outside.
I genuinely want to say that as far as The Workers' Party are concerned in contributing here, we believe that while there were issues of fundamental difference, there were indications towards the end of the deliberations when a vote was imminent that there was common ground achievable and that both sides were interested in talking about a common approach. I would hope that spirit is still there and that we could have a very very brief visit to this committee on the second time around.
There is a great deal of common ground. I do not think there is any question about that. There also is a desire to reach agreement on the outstanding areas of contention or difference. The Minister did indicate at the last meeting in the Dáil that he would be prepared to consider some of these aspects further and to try to meet them. The difficulty then was that the only opportunity he would have at that stage was the Seanad and in effect the referring back here gives an opportunity to the Minister to try to do what he had in mind for the Seanad here at this committee.
I would think, in the general spirit which has been set out by Deputy Shatter and reiterated by Deputy McCartan, that it would be best to set a date such as 18 January or thereabouts and to arrange that amendments would be in a few days before that and also to try to ensure that the amendments are as relevant to the issues as possible and that the common ground is met as far as possible. I think that would probably meet everybody's interest at this stage. If members of the committee are happy to meet, the Minister would be happy to work on that basis. I think that would be reasonable. It would give everybody an opportunity to try to come to agreement before that date as far as possible.
That is very encouraging coming from the Minister. I think 18 January is a very sensible date because the Dáil comes back on 25 January — so it would be a week beforehand. At this stage if you had three or four days for amendments to be submitted it is plenty because we have been through it all before. I think we know where we stand now with the common ground that has been achieved this afternoon. I would strongly recommend that we agree to this.
If we said the Friday before, would that be all right for amendments?
I think it would be satisfactory if amendments could be submitted by the Friday before that Wednesday and again I welcome the Minister's comments. I would hope as Deputy McCartan said, that having travelled this ground at great length in the last 12 months, we would be able to find a degree of common ground now and overcome many of the difficulties we have had. There is considerable public demand to see the necessary reforming legislation enacted as soon as possible. All of us have a duty to try to overcome the difficulties we have experienced and to get this Bill out of this committee, into the Dáil and the Seanad as early as possible. I would hope that we would all be able constructively to co-operate in that regard.
On a procedural matter, are we going to submit amendments for the whole Bill rather than dividing it into sections or Parts as we did before?
Chairperson
If we could decide the date first, then we could go on to procedure. Can we agree on Wednesday, 18 January at 11.30 a.m? Does that suit everybody? Amendments to be in by Thursday, 12 January. There are a number of rural Deputies who would not be operating from Dublin and amendments would have to be posted and the postal situation can vary. One could not be sure that the post would arrive on Monday.
I assume the amendments will be in the names of the parties.
Perhaps we could say by lunch-time on Friday, 13 January which would give ample opportunity.
Chairperson
The difficulty with that is that the Dáil is not in session and Deputies are not in the House and there is difficulty about getting post down the country.
These would be coming through the party Whips so they probably would be organised in advance of that time.
It would allow the rural Deputies an extra day in which to get amendments in.
Chairperson
I realise that but there is a difficulty in getting post down in the country. It may not apply to the majority of Deputies but it does apply to some.
You mean back down so that it can be circulated?
Chairperson
Down to their homes, to make sure that all members have the amendments circulated to them in adequate time prior to the meeting because there are occasions when post does not get down in time and a Deputy could be in Dublin by the time the post is delivered home.
We hope there will not be a very vast list at this stage, that it will be down to the basic issues.
Chairperson
I would like to reiterate that point and Deputy McCartan also raised it. I would hope that between now and 18 January the mover of the Bill, Deputy Shatter, and the Minister, Deputy Collins, could have a meeting and could resolve the situation in relation to amendments and where the common ground exists that they would come to the next meeting with an agreed set of amendments and that at least that common ground would be bridged. I hope that that meeting can take place and that there is a constructive outcome to it.
In relation to the point Deputy Colley raised, that is the procedure as to how we are actually going to deal with the Bill and the amendments, will we take amendments to all sections? Is that agreed? Agreed. The date for the amendments is 12 January.
May I make one point. For the record, I hope there is not an element of irony in that the last time we discussed common ground was when the Minister led at Second Stage and spoke of common ground and we all saw what happened thereafter. I would hope in the light of that, that Deputy McCartan's suggestion would not be taken lightly and that the Minister and Deputy Shatter would meet informally since there were about 67 amendments before the committee which there is no need to repeat. It is important that we discuss the scope of the amendments and that one or two committee meetings should see us back in the open Chamber. It is important that we have the meeting and that the committee decides that an informal meeting will take place between the Minister and Deputy Shatter.
I should like to assure Deputies that as far as the Minister is concerned he wants to be constructive and helpful. The Minister shares the spirit that is here today and he is anxious to see resolution of the matters. We all agree there are pluses and minuses and it is a question of trying to find the point of balance. I cannot see any difficulty in the Minister having a meeting with Deputy Shatter in advance of that time to try to iron out any difficulties.
Chairperson
Does the committee agree that the Minister and Deputy Shatter should meet informally prior to the next meeting? Agreed. The next meeting will be on 18 January. Amendments to all sections of the Bill must be in by 12 January.
The Special Committee adjourned at 5.20 p.m. until 18 January 1989.