I move amendment No. 35 :—
In sub-section (7), page 31, line 32, to insert after the word " making " the words " on or after the date of the establishment, of the Bacon Marketing Board."
It is just possible that some examination might be necessary with regard to grading before the Bacon Marketing Board would be established. That is why I propose to add these words. Otherwise we would have to wait before doing anything of this kind until the Board is established.
On the section, sub-section (1) paragraph (a) defines the operation of grading bacon and says:
(a) divide, by reference to the method of curing and the kind and quality of the bacon, bacon into such and so many grades as he thinks fit.
Would the Minister give us some indication of what he intends to indicate by " kind and quality of the bacon " ?
As to the curing, there are, of course, only two main methods of curing. I do not know whether we shall mark bacon according to the dry cured method or not. Some factories are in favour of dry curing. Extolling the qualities of dry cured bacon is more or less passing a vote of censure on the other people. The method will be divided into two—dry and wet. If Deputies take a keen interest in reading the regulations as to the depth of fat in the shoulder and so on they will see the importance of this section. The grading is actually laid down in the regulations by measurements.
Do you propose to have graders ?
We will have to have graders.
Will you divide them into two main classes—dry and wet ? Can the Minister say if it is true that Danish bacon is, in the main, cured wet ?
Yes, practically all of it.
Have not the larger number of consumers a preference for the dry curing ?
Certainly.
That is how Irish bacon has got its name.
I think there is a feeling amongst curers that we are able to beat the Danes and that we are able to command a better position for our bacon on the British market ? Those curers seem to pin their faith on licking the Danes by dry curing. If there is anything in that it would be very difficult for you to get away from dry curing. If dry curing is an asset to us, and if it gives us superiority, we must use that system.
It may be the way in which we can show our superiority over other countries.
It costs more to dry-cure—it takes longer, too.
Yes, and the bacon shrinks more when dry-cured than when wet-cured.
Of course, that is obvious, but it takes longer. I forget the number of days it takes. My point is that, if curers have developed that system, and if, in the minds of the consuming public, it produces a choicer article, I do not see how you can get out of classifying dry and wet-cured bacon.
Yes, it might be advisable to do so.
I submit that, in addition to dry-cured bacon being more attractive to the consumer, it is also very much more attractive to the distributor, and, after all, our problem is to catch the distributor for the British market. If the distributor buys tank-cured bacon he knows that it is going to shrink in stock and that he will lose a pound or two of bacon on every side of bacon. With the dry-cured bacon, however, he knows that he will be able to sell every ounce of bacon he buys. If we could induce the English retailer to ask for the dry-cured bacon from the wholesalers, we would be able to capture the market in that way.
With regard to the sub-divisions of that first classification, I wonder would we be taking too much on ourselves in expressing any opinion now as to that classification of dry and wet ?
I would urge on the Minister that he should authorise the giving of some indication on dry-cured bacon to show that it is dry-cured.
From my limited knowledge of the matter, I would agree with that.
Yes, I should be inclined to agree with it also. As a matter of fact, the Tribunal reported very strongly on this classification between dry and wet-cured bacon—I think for the same reasons expressed here, that it was one line in which we could develop and make Irish bacon a really choice article on the British market. However, as I say, there are one or two curers—I think there are only two—who are using the wet cure, and they think it is very unfair.
I suggest that Deputy Belton join with me in putting down amandatory amendment on the Report Stage and the Minister can consider it in the meantime. The purpose of the amendment would be to compel them to divide into wet and dry-cured.
Yes, but I should prefer to bring the Minister along with us.
I submit that the Minister may be in agreement with us but that he would prefer us to do the dirty work, so to speak, and that he would then stand by us.
If the Minister gets any more light on the matter in the meantime, I hope he will let us know, because I do not want to be a party to pressing an amendment if there are good reasons against it.
I submit that when the Minister is taking control of that trade he should see that the bacon curers will sell a sound article.
That is the purpose of the whole Bill.
I should like to call the Minister's attention to the fact that there is some confusion in the minds of the people all over the country owing to the fact that they do not differentiate clearly between green bacon and hard-cured bacon. In the old days, it was the American bacon that kept, whereas the Irish bacon was only cured to keep for a short time. Now, of course, there is no American bacon and you have not only to ask for Irish salt bacon but for Irish hard-cured salt bacon. If you only ask for salt bacon, the retailer may give you green bacon, which will only keep for six or seven days. The hard-cured salt bacon will keep for six or seven months. If it does not keep, the retailer will take back what is left on the consumer's hands and pay him for it.
There should be some restriction on the sale of this green bacon.
I have no objection to the amendment being put down and it would probably be very useful to have it discussed in the Dáil, but I should like to be allowed to have prior consultation with the Boards concerned with regard to the making of the Order or at least with regard to the time of the Order.
I am particularly concerned with the grading as to kind and quality. I should be interested to hear from the Minister whether he had considered the factors he is going to take into consideration when he makes that grading.
I have not fully considered it. After all, our whole object is to be sure to make the amendment wide enough so as not to exclude certain things that should be included. We feel, in the Department of Agriculture, that we are not experts on this matter. We will have to meet the Bacon Marketing Board and ask their opinion. After consultation with them, we can take a definite line.
I see that sub-section (7) places an absolute obligation on the Minister to consult the Bacon Marketing Board.
Yes.
I am prepared to let the section stand.
