Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 16 June 2004
1 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the arrangements in place in his office for providing assistance to independent members of Dáil Éireann who support the Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15405/04]
View answer2 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach the arrangements in place in his office for assisting certain independent Deputies who support the Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17237/04]
View answerI propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.
A number of Independent Deputies offered invaluable support to the previous Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Government. While in regard to this Administration, their support is not as critical to the Government's majority, given the support they have provided in the past I have tried and will continue to try to be as helpful as possible to these Deputies.
A staff member in my office assists the Government Chief Whip's office in its work in liaising with these Deputies. This official meets with these Deputies on a regular basis and arranges to keep them briefed on issues as they arise.
On what basis are special arrangements made with certain Deputies? Does it include better access to Ministers and to the full range of ministerial offices? If these Members are not members of the Government grouping, on what basis are they accorded special privilege or regarded as most privileged among Members in this House? Will the Taoiseach accept that those who hold ministerial office, be it as a Minister or a Minister of State, have a bounden responsibility to treat all elected Members of this House on the same basis, that the democratic mandate that each and every one of us enjoys in this House requires and deserves an equality of respect from all ministries and that there should not be a kink towards the backbenchers of Government parties or to any other individual Members of this House who align themselves with those parties? Will the Taoiseach accept the equality of the mandate that each and every one of us in this House enjoys?
Of course I would and that is practised very well in this House and always has been. The Deputy will realise that in the case of Government backbenchers or delegations it is easier when one is in Government to get access. I remember when it was the other way around when I was in another position.
Regarding courtesies, these arrangements are not as pertinent as they were in the last Dáil. When it comes to people seeking explanations or information, as I said previously, I try to follow the same practice, regardless of what side of the House Members are. This is a daily occurrence. I do not think there is an issue of Members being given special privilege or that there is difference regarding equality of treatment of Members. Such assistance is given to Members purely on the basis of their trying to deal with constitutency issues, deputations and delegations. I do not think that access in that respect is of any great help or assistance otherwise.
In the last Dáil we had a direct method of dealing with Members because when Deputies were asked to support the Government, issues had to be explained to them by Ministers so that they knew what they were supporting. That practice is not as frequent in this Dáil, but it was a good arrangement following a precedent that had existed in this House for many decades.
Will the Taoiseach agree that we have a Government with a massive majority that is wasting public money purely to massage a number of Independent Deputies to provide a golden parachute for the Government to ensure that, if it loses the Progressive Democrats' support, it will be able to continue in power? Does he agree that breeds dreadful cynicism among ordinary people about public money being used to help Fianna Fáil cling to power? Will we see an increase in spending in this regard now that the Government's backbenchers are indicating that the PDs are being pushed close to the door?
There is no additional expenditure involved in this regard. A person involved in other work assists wherever possible. Therefore, there is no increase in expenditure involved. It is common courtesy. The reality is that Deputies from all sides of the House at times ask members of the Government to do things to assist them — it is not much more than that.
If we take the Taoiseach at his word about being helpful to individual Members of the House and so on, I ask him to contrast that with the kind of example I gave this morning where on a live current issue, we sought a simple statement of fact about the number of non-national births in the Dublin maternity hospitals. We tabled a parliamentary question——
That does not arise from this question.
—— which was passed from one Minister to another and I get a reply dated 11 June 2004, the day of voting.
That does not arise.
With respect, Sir, the——
Deputy, it does not arise out of Questions Nos. 1 and 2.
The question is about the assistance given to Independent Members.
It has nothing to do with questions that were answered in the House. The Chair has ruled on the matter.
Let me put the question this way then. Is it appropriate that the Taoiseach is prepared to put arrangements in place to assist Independent Members and that Opposition parties cannot elicit the same information, even by way of parliamentary question?
Whether a Member is an Independent or a member of a political party and tables a parliamentary question, the same procedures apply. If information was available in a Department, it could not be given to a Member once a parliamentary question on the matter was tabled. That issue could not arise, as it could not be done under the rules.
I have here a letter dated 11 June 2004. It is the ultimate.
That information could not be given to an Independent Member. I do not know the circumstances. The Deputy stated earlier that he tabled the question eight weeks previously and I do not know why it took that length to provide the information. The questions the Deputy tabled were generally in the public domain — the newspapers had been ringing the maternity hospitals and had published their own calculations several weeks ago. I accept that to wait eight weeks for a reply to a parliamentary question is a long time.
We are not talking about the standard procedures that relate to parliamentary questions, where Members abide by Standing Orders of three and five days. In some cases, we receive a response and not an answer. We are talking about a fast track.
Will the Deputy put his question?
The question is about the fast tracking facility for certain Independent Members of the House. Should this procedure be properly accounted for? Quite rightly, the expenses of Members for travel, accommodation and constituency offices are accounted for every year. Should not the time spent by civil servants specifically accommodating the Independent Members be accounted for also? There are at least half a dozen civil servants in the offices of the Ministers and the Ministers of State of each Department working solely on constituency work and this is not accounted for in terms of public accountability. Does the Taoiseach agree that this should be accounted for?
Questions are tabled time and time again on the cost of the facilities in Ministers' offices and that information is in the public domain.
A different arrangement applied during the previous Dáil because Independent Deputies were asked to support the Government in office on a weekly basis. This type of arrangement dates back to the 1950s and applied also in the 1970s, where the Government of the day would explain, brief and assist Independent Members in various ways. This is all quite proper. It is not as necessary or as formal in this Dáil as in the last Dáil, where the Government required the support of four Independent Deputies to enable legislation to be passed. It was a proper parliamentary procedure to brief them and keep them informed.
Is the Taoiseach offering Independent Members an illusion of having the inside track, or is the reality that they get things done that other Deputies cannot? Is that not what this is all about? Essentially, the Government is making sure that it has an insurance policy if Fianna Fáil breaks with the Progressive Democrats.
The formal arrangements that applied during the last Dáil are not in practice now. I do not think it is a question of some Members getting privileged treatment. Independent Deputies do not have the same facilities for seeking deputations and delegations as political parties.
The Independent Members have an additional allowance.
When Independent Members are elected, it may be quite difficult for them, as they point out to me on a regular basis.
Has the Taoiseach outlined the full extent of the assistance available currently or previously to the Independent Deputies, whether the assistance goes beyond advice and information and that the pet projects of Independent Members are being facilitated and fast tracked? Have discussions on such issues taken place in recent times between the Independent Deputies and the office that now facilitates them?
I am not aware of any pet projects. The reality is that Deputies from all parties are always seeking out Ministers to help them with their pet projects. On my way to the House, this morning, a Senator from a non-Government party lobbied me about a pet project. That is quite proper.
That was not the question.
If an Independent Members asks if he or she may meet a Minister to discuss a matter, it does not mean the Minister will accede, but he or she is entitled to gain access to make a case.
That was not my question.
They would get access, but that does not mean they would get the project.
They would be facilitated by preferential access.
It is not preferential access. I see the Opposition Deputies being able to catch the Minister and arrange delegations. It happens all the time.
There is no one to facilitate the pet projects.
It is noticeable that none of the PD Cabinet Ministers is in the House to support the Taoiseach in his post-election travails.
The Minister is in the Seanad.
Is the real purpose of devoting resources to this independent channel to provide the Taoiseach with a spare wheel, in case one of the wheels comes off the wagon? Is that not the real reason he is taking out an insurance policy to protect the Government? The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, wakes up every morning with another new earth moving speech that has usually nothing to do with his own portfolio and meanwhile crime levels are rising and so on.
A question please.
Can the Taoiseach continue to have Deputy McDowell making hyperbolic speeches every second day, while the Tánaiste is telling him to speed up and make hard decisions and backbenchers are telling him he must go the opposite direction?
That does not arise out of the questions.
Would it not be much easier to live with a small number of Independent Members from the Fianna Fáil gene pool, who would very soon revert to the family? The Taoiseach would have a cushier life. He has been through a great deal and has served the country well. Would he not consider giving the PDs their P45 now?
He dreams about it every night.
No.
