Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 8 July 2004
2 Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to the concerns expressed at the impact of the prohibition on persons under 18 being in pubs after 9 p.m.; if he has received representations to have this matter reviewed; if he intends to undertake such a review; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20861/04]
View answerSection 14 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2003, which substitutes a new section for section 34 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1988, generally prohibits persons under the age of 18 years from being in the bar of licensed premises, but not from being in any other part of a licensed premises. A licensee may, however, permit a child, that is a person under the age of 15 years, to be in the bar if the child is accompanied by a parent or guardian, but not after 9 p.m. A licensee may also permit a person aged between 15 and 17 to be in the bar unaccompanied by a parent or guardian, but not after 9 p.m. Naturally, they cannot be served alcohol.
Section 14 also provides that a licensee may allow a child accompanied by a parent or guardian, or a person aged between 15 and 17, to be in the bar after 9 p.m. on the occasion of a private function at which a substantial meal is served to persons attending the function.
It is important to note that the restrictions set out in section 14 of the 2003 Act apply to the bar and not to other parts of licensed premises. People who are now talking about setting up separate rooms for smokers in their premises might reflect on the fact that they appear to have been incapable of setting up a separate partitioned area in their premises for parents and children to enjoy meals after 9 p.m. I wonder whether we are listening to a lot of guff on this subject that is purely driven by profit and not by any common sense distinction. This means persons under the age of 18 years may be in parts of licensed premises other than the bar after 9 p.m. In the case of hotels, they can be in every part of the hotel and in the company of their parents even though their parents are consuming alcohol in any part of those premises other than the bar of the hotel after 9 p.m.
The provisions in section 14 are fully in line with recommendations both of the commission on liquor licensing and the strategic task force on alcohol. They take account of the need to facilitate families while at the same time promoting compliance with and enforcement of the licensing laws. The restrictions are not solely motivated by enforcement concerns. The strategic task force on alcohol recommended restrictions because it felt the presence of children in bars exposed them at an early age to a form of alcohol promotion, which was unnecessary and potentially damaging to them and which undermined the aim of better health for children.
I assure the Minister that this is not guff; it is real. The Minister is correct and was supported by my party in targeting the abuse of alcohol by those who are under age. However, a real issue will affect families on their summer holidays. I go to Dingle for the month of August and will do so this year. The area where I go has no hotel. As the Minister knows, throughout the Ring of Kerry, in west Cork and Galway where people rent houses to take their children for three weeks or a month, the only place such families can have a meal is on licensed premises. Many such places have a window of opportunity of perhaps three or four months in the year and are not in a position to provide a separate room.
While it is too late for this season, during the school holidays the family should be permitted to have their meals in such places. I am not talking about big towns but small areas many of which could not be called villages, mainly by the sea. The only place people can get some food is on licensed premises. Many families are on a budget and while we know Ireland is not a cheap destination, we are trying to encourage people. Many families go to pubs because they are perceived to be cheaper than hotels. While I agree with the Minister that we must be very concerned about under age drinking, what I am discussing will not lead to that. When we were younger and our parents took us away in a caravan or whatever, we went to a place where music was played and 99.9% of us did not end up as alcoholics or with a drink problem because our parents were with us.
On Committee Stage, I raised my concerns and the Minister advised that the vintners were not lobbying for this, probably because they were caught up in the haze of the smoking ban at that stage. I know the hoteliers lobbied the Minister and I asked him whether he had received representations to have the matter reviewed. Bearing in mind the picture I have outlined, the Minister should review the matter and make a change just for June, July and August.
In the near future I hope to introduce a major consolidating Bill to consolidate all the law relating to licensing for the sale of alcohol. In that context I will consider positively any measure that makes common sense. However, common sense must be built into any proposal that might be introduced. While addressing a hotel in Dingle we must also address a hotel in Temple Bar. While addressing a small hotel we must also address a large hotel. While addressing a one-room pub we must also address a super pub.
If we can have a law to allow children to remain on licensed premises in the company of their parents without creating the equally unacceptable situation where gardaí would enter a hotel in Dublin find 17 year olds propped up against the bar and be given the excuse that their parents are elsewhere in the hotel, I would like to see it. However, when this issue arose in the 2003 legislation and since, no one has proposed a workable way to distinguish between the small bar or hotel in Dingle and the big bar or hotel in Dublin, which would allow a garda go to the owner of licensed premises with a 17 year old at 10 p.m. and find out whether the owner asked for identification and why the 17 year old is on the premises.
If somebody can propose a common sense solution, I would be the first to grab it. However, I have not heard it proposed yet. For all of the resources available to hoteliers and vintners, they have not been able to make a proposal as to how the seasonal issue which the Deputy mentions can be married with the need to stop under age drinking.
Before the introduction of the 2003 Act, I was visited by a woman from the west whose under age daughter was found unfortunately dead in a ditch beside the road, having been served in a pub while her parents were away on holidays. She pleaded with me to do something to prevent that happening again. The only practical way of enforcing the evidence of age cards is to ban under age persons during some hours from the bars of licensed premises. If someone can make a common sense proposal that marries what the Deputy wishes to see and the requirements of a generally operable law, I would be the first to grab that opportunity if it were placed before me. I have not seen it yet and it is not for want of effort on my part to think out solutions that would be workable.
I am delighted to hear that the Minister is willing to listen. Last August in the good weather some people did not leave the beach until 7 o'clock or 8 o'clock, which gives very little time to get something to eat. I suggest the Minister should extend the time limit to 10 p.m. in June, July in August to give people time to eat their meals. I abhor celebrations like holy communions and christenings being pub orientated. I am talking about food and providing a service for families. I understand the Minister's difficulty. If the time limit was changed for the summer we could revert to 9 p.m. for the rest of the year. The same problem does not arise during Christmas holidays, only in summer.
I will consider this in the context of the forthcoming legislation if we get around to considering it. By the way, when I said "guff", the guff to which I objected referred to owners claiming they could not adapt their pubs to install a glazed partition for a special room adjacent to the bar in which children and their parents could eat. However, when smokers came lurking on the horizon, they claimed it would be very easy to subdivide premises to allow a smoking area. What was so difficult in the context of food became so easy in the context of smoke and I regard that as guff.
