Enda Kenny
Question:1 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the costs which have accrued to his Department in respect of the Moriarty tribunal during the first quarter of 2005; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [12844/05]
View answerWednesday, 18 May 2005
Questions (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Pat Rabbitte
Question:2 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the total costs of the Moriarty tribunal in respect of the first quarter of 2005 for which his Department has responsibility; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14216/05]
View answer
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Question:3 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach the costs to his Department of the Moriarty tribunal in the first quarter of 2005; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15070/05]
View answer
Joe Higgins
Question:4 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach the costs which have accrued to his Department with regard to the Moriarty tribunal in 2005 to date; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15222/05]
View answer
Trevor Sargent
Question:5 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach the costs to date to his Department of the Moriarty tribunal in 2005; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16062/05]
View answerOral answers (44 contributions)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.
The costs incurred by my Department during the first quarter of 2005 in respect of the Moriarty tribunal amounted to €670,094 and the costs to 30 April 2005 amounted to €976,139. The estimated costs for the tribunal for 2005 amount to €4 million. However, provision for an additional €6.5 million has been made to cover costs, such as report publication and some element of award of legal costs in the event that the tribunal completes its work in 2005. The overall estimate for 2005, therefore, is €10.583 million.
The total cost incurred by my Department since 1997 to 30 April 2005, is €19,619,388. This includes fees paid to counsel for the tribunal and administration costs incurred to date since its establishment. The total payment made to the legal team up to 30 April 2005 was €14,660,792.
These are truly extraordinary figures that the Taoiseach has provided —€14 million in legal fees and costs of €20 million to date. The Moriarty tribunal was established in 1997 by this House with a remit to determine particular facts. It is now in its ninth year but has not produced a report of any kind, including an interim report. The Flood tribunal, now known as the Mahon tribunal, has produced four interim reports, the most recent of which gave an indication of the current state of the tribunal's work-load and projected timescale.
The Moriarty tribunal's terms of reference include the fact that it can make an interim report. It last sat on 15 September 2004.
A question please.
When does the Taoiseach expect the Moriarty tribunal to conclude? Will the Taoiseach comment on the interlocutory injunction secured by Mr. Denis O'Brien in the Supreme Court last week?
Deputy, that matter is not appropriate for Question Time.
It is appropriate.
It does not arise from these questions, which deal exclusively with costs.
It does arise with regard to costs.
It does not arise from these questions.
The Moriarty tribunal now wants to investigate——
We cannot discuss the workings of the tribunal at Question Time.
The cost to the taxpayer of the Moriarty tribunal investigating the sale, purchase or otherwise by Mr. Denis O'Brien of Doncaster Rovers is the subject of an interlocutory injunction, which Mr. O'Brien obtained in the Supreme Court.
Deputy, we cannot discuss those matters on the floor of the House.
I am not going to discuss them.
The Chair has ruled on that many times.
This is about costs. We may well have to wait until the interlocutory injunction in that case is heard before the Moriarty tribunal will be able to continue its work in respect of that element of its remit — if that is deemed to be legal. My question relates to costs. Supposing that case takes 12 months, will lawyers at the Moriarty tribunal be paid exorbitant wages every day for doing nothing while it is being pursued? It is not for me to decide whether the Moriarty tribunal is acting within its terms of reference. That is a matter for the Supreme Court. However, lawyers at the Moriarty tribunal will continue to be paid, at a cost to the taxpayer, for doing absolutely nothing.
We cannot decide these questions here. The Deputy has made his point.
We need a conclusion to this tribunal. Does the Taoiseach have any idea as to when it might actually conclude?
As regards the Deputy's first question, I cannot be certain and I cannot control it totally. However, in the negotiations that were instigated by the previous Minister for Finance on all the tribunals, he set down a new schedule of fees that would take effect subject to negotiations that the Office of the Attorney General would have with the various chairpersons of all the tribunals. In the discussions with the Moriarty tribunal, the date that was agreed before the new arrangements would come into place was 11 January 2006. I accept what the Deputy said about issues that could perhaps delay or extend this date, but my clear understanding is that, one way or another, the new schedule of fees will come into place on 11 January 2006. I assume that chairmen of tribunals can seek extensions, but the previous Minister for Finance was clear that these dates were negotiated and in his view they were final. That should be the arrangement.
Under the new fees arrangement negotiated by the previous Minister, which would come into effect at that stage, the set fee to be paid to a senior counsel will be based on the current annual salary of a High Court counsel, plus 15% in respect of pension contributions. Related payments will be made to other legal staff, including barristers and solicitors. On this basis, the specific annual remuneration packages will be on a senior counsel's rate, a junior counsel's rate and a solicitor's rate, which the previous Minister set out.
I hope the tribunal can complete its work and report by then. If it does not, however, my understanding is that the new rates will apply from 11 January 2006.
I did not catch all of the Taoiseach's reply. Is he saying that this diminution of cost will commence from a particular date, irrespective of where we are by that date? It seems unlikely that between now and 11 January 2006, the date when the reduction in fees comes into effect, a great deal more progress will be made. Is it not possible for this House to give a direction to the Moriarty tribunal and others to cause them to focus on the core business?
On the face of it, it is extraordinary that one could read in the newspapers last week about a matter being decided by the Supreme Court whereby, apparently, it was proposed to inquire into the purchase of a football club, which was not even anticipated at the time the tribunal was established. Am I losing the plot here? This House established the tribunal to examine certain matters of public interest, but it is difficult to understand how a decision that was not even contemplated at the time, but which presumably was made subsequently, based on normal commercial criteria, now ends up being inquired into by that tribunal. Many taxpayers who are paying for this tribunal would have some difficulty with that conclusion. Does the Taoiseach agree that when history is written and his many fine qualities are set out it is likely that historians will conclude that the setting up of the tribunals was his best political stroke ever and the best judged and most brilliant political kick to touch in the history of politics——
The matter does not arise from Questions Nos. 1 to 5.
——because it means the matters into which the six or seven tribunals are inquiring cannot be discussed or debated in the House without, at any rate, doing great damage to the Ceann Comhairle as he would get very upset policing the rules of the House?
For the benefit of the Deputy, the Chair has ruled on a number of occasions that issues currently before a tribunal are not a matter for the Dáil, which may not run a parallel tribunal.
That is precisely my point.
The fact that the House decided by resolution to establish the Moriarty tribunal does not give it the right to attempt to interfere in any way with its proceedings. The resolution of this House establishing the tribunal was pursuant to the statute, the Tribunals of Inquiry Acts, whereby the judicial proceedings and the conduct of the hearings held thereunder are clearly the sole responsibility of its judicial chairman.
I am upset that even when I rise to support the Ceann Comhairle, he seems to expect that I am in contention with him. I support him entirely.
The Deputy is not in contention with the Chair. I am merely refreshing his mind on the decision the House made.
I accept the House cannot discuss issues which are before the tribunal. It was in respect of that precise matter that I complimented the Taoiseach on his foresight because if Deputies had been able to discuss the issues before the tribunals, it might have been a different story.
All Members, including the Chair, are bound by the legislation passed by the House, namely, the Tribunals of Inquiry Acts.
I accept that. If a cut-off date is applied, should the tribunals not restrict themselves to their core business? The Taoiseach expressed his hope that this particular tribunal would conclude its business. How can one reasonably expect it to do so? I do not envisage that senior counsel and other lawyers will continue to work for the tribunals when the cut in pay takes effect. Does the Taoiseach believe they will do so?
Deputy Rabbitte makes a valid point about the tribunals. I assure him this was not my intention — as anybody who looked at the record would also conclude — when I participated with others in setting them up, although obviously I had responsibility as Taoiseach. As some of my staff have shown me a number of times, at that stage all of us indicated that two years seemed to be an awful long time for a tribunal to come to a conclusion. On one occasion in 1999 Deputies agreed that if the tribunal went to the summer of 2000, we could live with that. We are in the summer of 2005 and the total cost of the tribunals is, I believe, more than €200 million based on the figure of €197 million I saw some months ago. This was not my intention.
While I do not wish to be contentious, when one looks back at the costs for different years and compares the rates paid currently to the new rates negotiated by the Minister, the enormous difference in the figures will certainly create many difficulties for the individuals concerned. The new rate will be €213,000 as against the current rate, a multiple of that figure, negotiated for all the tribunals. The previous Minister for Finance was tough in that respect. He reached a position on the Ferns and Neary inquiries and the Barr, Moriarty, Morris and Mahon tribunals and arrived at dates for each, most of which are this year, with some early next year. The exceptions are the Morris tribunal which has a date of September 2006 and the Mahon tribunal which has a date of March 2007. I understand that under the agreement the new rates will apply from the specified dates. If the tribunals make a case that this should be otherwise, the matter will have to be brought to the House.
On the terms of reference, Deputies Rabbitte, Kenny and other party leaders, including Deputy Sargent, and I endeavoured in the legislation passed last year to keep to the issues because the question which would otherwise arise would not be whether the tribunals would conclude during my time as Taoiseach but whether they would do so during my lifetime. I hope to be alive for another few years but the difficulty is that if we do not keep to the issues, the tribunals will go on forever. A further difficulty is the relevance of issues dating back to 1997. They are important but if one does not bring them to a conclusion, they will go on and on. I cannot honestly tell Deputy Rabbitte what will happen when the position changes.
Doncaster Rovers may have overtaken Manchester United at that stage.
That is very likely given the way things are going. I can only give the Deputy an answer based on the current position. As I stated in my reply, I have optimistically provided €6.5 million this year to cover the costs of publication and the award of legal fees on the basis that we will get to the new position. Obviously, however, I cannot promise Deputies that we will do so.
The Taoiseach stated in February that the expected completion date for the Moriarty tribunal was January 2006. Is that still his expectation? Will he clarify the position which would apply if the tribunal were to continue beyond January 2006? Would the new fees payable to the legal profession come into effect as of that month or would the current exorbitant rates the legal profession is currently drawing down continue to be paid?
I have checked the responses given by the Taoiseach in February when he stated the cost to the Exchequer of legal fees for all sitting and completed tribunals at that date was €138.92 million. I note he cited a higher figure in his response to Deputy Rabbitte.
The figure refers to total costs; legal fees are not the only costs.
Will the Taoiseach clarify whether the figure he cited of in excess of €200 million referred not only to legal fees but also to other costs involved because it runs contrary to the information he gave in February? Does he appreciate that almost every citizen views the fees paid to the legal profession as a massive rip-off? Will he clarify when, if ever, the new fee regime will kick in for the Moriarty tribunal and all other sitting tribunals?
On the previous occasion that I answered questions on this issue I had not asked my Department to update the costs. The figure of €142.38 million I cited in February was in respect of legal costs. A further €54.48 million related to other costs, giving a total cost of €196.86 million. The figure for legal costs includes some €60.7 million in respect of third party legal costs awarded to date. As regards tribunals of inquiry and public inquiries which are sitting at present, the total cost to the end of February was €159.22 million, of which €110.66 million is in respect of legal costs and €35.18 million relates to third party legal costs. To clarify what I said to Deputy Rabbitte, as the figure is now three months old, it is safe to say it will have increased to well over €200 million. The dates agreed by Government on which the new schedule of fees would be applied to most of the tribunals are: for the Ferns tribunal on child abuse, March 2005; for the Neary inquiry into events at Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, March 2005; for the Barr tribunal into events at Abbeylara, June 2005; for the Moriarty tribunal, 11 January 2006; for the Morris tribunal into complaints about Donegal gardaí, 30 September 2006; and for the Mahon tribunal March 2007. The completion date for that was further away but when we brought in the legislation, it brought it back from 2012.
The Government set different dates for different tribunals of inquiry having regard to the individual circumstances of each of the tribunals of inquiry and after communication with each of the chairpersons. We determined not to set dates that were unrealistically early and that would involve extensive disruption of the tribunals and inquiries by reason of changes in the legal personnel involved. The delays and costs that such changes would have entailed could have added to rather than reduced the costs of tribunals of inquiry.
Deputy Rabbitte asked what happens when we come to these dates. The figures for senior counsel will be €213,000, for junior counsel €142,000 and for solicitors €176,000 but that is small compared to what they are currently getting.
It is like a community employment scheme.
They would probably qualify for family income supplement.
That issue arises but I can just give the House the agreement that was reached.
I am not sure I heard the Taoiseach give a definitive answer regarding whether he feels the 11 January 2006 completion date will be the end of that tribunal.
With 2005 in mind, the Taoiseach mentioned €10,583,000 on the assumption that there would be a report. Is he confident we will get a report before long, given there has not been an interim report to date? On the basis of the escalating costs, would he care to include the Moriarty tribunal and other tribunals in the category of overruns earmarked for other projects the Government is bankrolling?
Does the Taoiseach have figures for the staff numbers working on the Moriarty tribunal? In November 2004, the Taoiseach said there would be no new staff. What did he mean when he said in February that new staff had been appointed presumably to some tribunal? Can the Taoiseach clarify if that was the Moriarty tribunal and outline the current position?
I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing these questions because it is difficult to keep within the bounds of the House given that we are not supposed to discuss tribunals here.
The only date that I have for the Moriarty tribunal is 11 January 2006.
Is the Taoiseach confident about that date?
I have literally no control over it, I have no idea.
I do not know if clerical staff are involved but the only record I have for the Moriarty tribunal states that it has two senior counsel, one junior counsel, four research counsel and a solicitor. Those are the up-to-date figures, including additional staff, agreed when the Attorney General and Minister for Finance were dealing with this issue and working towards those dates to assist the tribunals to bring their work to completion.