Enda Kenny
Question:1 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the number of staff in his Department who have applied for relocation under the decentralisation programme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28210/06]
View answerWednesday, 25 October 2006
Questions (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Joe Higgins
Question:2 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the implementation of the decentralisation programme as it affects his Department. [29222/06]
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Trevor Sargent
Question:3 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the implementation of the decentralisation programme as it affects his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30665/06]
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Pat Rabbitte
Question:4 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Taoiseach the number of staff in his Department who have applied for relocation under the Government’s decentralisation programme; the number that have been relocated; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30877/06]
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Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Question:5 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the implementation of the decentralisation programme as it affects his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34471/06]
View answerOral answers (22 contributions)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.
Thirty-nine staff serving in my Department have applied through the central applications facility to relocate under the decentralisation programme. The breakdown by grade is: assistant principal officer, seven; higher executive officer, three; administrative officer, seven; executive officer, nine; staff officer, two; and clerical officer, 11. Ten former members of staff have already been assigned to decentralised posts.
Arrangements are in place to ensure that the decentralisation of staff does not impact negatively on the quality of the services provided by the Department. These arrangements include the phased redeployment of some of the remaining staff to the areas of the Department most affected by decentralisation and the provision of training and job profiles/work manuals to new staff, as appropriate.
That 18% of the staff of my Department have opted to relocate outside Dublin shows that the underlying decision to initiate a comprehensive decentralisation programme was the correct one. Deputies will be aware that there are no proposals to decentralise my Department or any of the bodies under its aegis.
Perhaps the staff want to get out because they realise there is to be a change of regime. Obviously, I cannot prove this yet.
What grades in the Taoiseach's Department have opted for relocation? What are the numbers involved? Is it ten, 20 or 30? Have they requested relocation based on where they come from? What is the Taoiseach's view in that regard? My questions are confined to the Department of the Taoiseach because I know the Ceann Comhairle will knock me if I ask anything else.
Of the 213 staff in my Department, 39 have applied to decentralise. They include seven assistant principal officers, three higher executive officers, nine executive officers, two staff officers and 11 clerical officers. Ten former members of staff have already been assigned to decentralised posts. The total number of officials is 49 — ten officials have already moved and a further 39 officials are listed. They will go to a range of places. I do not have the exact numbers for each of the agencies. Some have applied to be transferred to Ordnance Survey Ireland in Dungarvan, the National Standards Authority of Ireland in Arklow, the probation and welfare service in Navan, the National Roads Authority in Ballinasloe, the National Educational Welfare Board in Portarlington, Development Co-operation Ireland in Limerick, Sustainable Energy Ireland in Dundalk, the Garda headquarters in Thurles, Area Development Management Limited in Clifden, the Valuation Office in Youghal and the Prison Service in Longford. In most of the cases I know of, having spoken to the individuals in question, it seems that people decided to apply for decentralisation to get near home or to go back to their roots. Their motivation usually relates to such concerns rather than to the individual offices. People want to get away from Dublin and get back home.
Will there be a campaign of recruitment to replace the people in the Department of the Taoiseach who have opted for relocation? In other words, will the numbers continue to be the same?
The staff numbers will be the same, although we have to achieve a small reduction every year. Under the Department of Finance's guidelines, we have to try to achieve a 3% reduction every year over a three-year period. I am sure that approach will continue into the future. For the past two years, departmental officials who want to participate in the decentralisation programme have been moving into posts in agencies and Departments which are to be moved. People who have decided to stay in Dublin — they may be from Dublin or elsewhere — have usually made such decisions based on their age and the ages of their family members. Such people are filling the posts which are being vacated. These changes are taking place in the public service in an organised way. Some people might argue that the pace of change is slow, but it is not possible to do it in any other way with the staff associations. People are leaving jobs which are not due to be decentralised. Some positions in the Department of the Taoiseach will not be decentralised, although jobs in two areas will be moved to new locations. People in other agencies who do not want to move from Dublin are filling positions in my Department. The programme is working on an organised basis and will continue to do so over a period of time. I understand that approximately 1,000 people are already on the move. That number will increase progressively over a number of years.
The Taoiseach told us in February of this year that his Department would lose approximately 20% of its staff as a result of decentralisation. He said that the problems resulting from those changes would be eased by means of the redeployment and retraining of current staff. How will that procedure be put in place? What procedures are in place for that retraining and redeployment? Given that it seems fairly extensive, has the Department taken account of a cost for it? The Taoiseach indicated in February that 45 staff in his Department had opted to relocate. Will those people be moved over the long term? Will those changes happen at a certain pace? Does the Taoiseach expect them to be moved in advance of the forthcoming general election?
I said on a previous occasion that 45 officials in my Department had applied for decentralisation — that figure has since increased to 49. Ten members of staff have moved on and the others are in the system. The restructuring process under the central applications facility is ongoing. I assure the Deputy that civil servants are not worried about the election because they will still be there on the other side of it, regardless of who else is there. The movement of staff within and between Departments and offices is taking place at a steady pace. Approximately 2,300 officials have been assigned to posts which will be decentralised. That represents approximately 30% of the total number of jobs to be relocated. It is moving progressively. It will not be as quick as we intended it to be. It will be like the programme in the 1990s, when approximately 4,500 people were decentralised more slowly than was anticipated. It is moving. I understand that contracts are being agreed for the 39 buildings and structures which are to be built at the various locations. As people notice what is happening, such as the completion of the physical infrastructure, they will be more inclined to join the panel. It is certainly moving. Hardly a week or month goes by without somebody moving, as one can tell by the extent of staff movement in one's own Department.
Is there a cost for retraining?
As retraining is being done by the Department of Finance, it is a question for that Department. Considerable programmes of training and retraining are being organised, for example in the area of information technology. A great deal of it would probably be happening anyway, but more of it is happening as a consequence of the movements which are taking place.
The Taoiseach mentioned that infrastructure is visible. What is his view on the Economic and Social Research Institute's comment that the State is spending €1 billion on offices for civil servants who already have offices? The Taoiseach has said he can see officials moving every day in the Department, but how does that accord with the fact that fewer than 750 officials are prepared to move by the end of this year, when the initial target was 10,300?
The questions before the House refer specifically to the Department of the Taoiseach. Questions on decentralisation are matters for the Minister for Finance in the first instance, and then for the line Ministers. These questions refer specifically to the Taoiseach and his Department.
Yes. Arising from the experience of the Taoiseach in his Department, is it not time to admit that the political stroke to transfer 10,300 civil servants is in a shambles and——
That does not arise.
——that we need to go back to the drawing board?
I suggest that the Deputy submit a question to the relevant Minister.
My question derives from the Taoiseach's experience in his Department. The decentralisation programme is not happening in the Department of the Taoiseach. It will not be delivered. It is damaging the Civil Service. It is duplicating buildings. It is creating a parallel Civil Service. Does the Taoiseach agree that we should go back to the drawing board for a negotiated and planned programme of voluntary decentralisation?
The questions before the House refer specifically to the Department of the Taoiseach.
The things mentioned by Deputy Rabbitte are happening in my Department. Progress is being made with the central applications facility and in the discussions with the staff associations. My Department and all other Departments and agencies are working their way through the system. It will be slower than we anticipated. That has to be the case because the programme is voluntary. We are working our way through the system. I would not say it is a failure in the Department of the Taoiseach, or that it is not working there. We have moved to a position where it is working. Some 20% of the staff of my Department will move under the decentralisation programme. That is a high number, on any base. That almost 50 people, from just over 200 people, are prepared to relocate demonstrates that it is working. I concede that it is slower than we hoped, but there are many reasons for that. Some of the reasons are good and some of them are not so good. We have to provide for retraining and give people opportunities in areas like technology. I do not think it affects the service in any way. When I deal with a range of Departments which are involved in the decentralisation programme, there are no great difficulties. It will be even less of a problem as technology improves and advances.
What about the comment made by the ESRI?
Many of the buildings which are held by the OPW are also on saleable leases. If Departments move, including some Departments near here, they can sell on some very lucrative contracts. We need to consider what the bottom line figure for that will be in five or ten years time. One can receive far better offers throughout the country, as we all know. Some of the buildings which are held are quite expensive. I do not refer to the old traditional buildings, but to buildings which have been leased and rented by the OPW. We have to take that into the equation. I am not certain about the ESRI. If we are to have balanced regional development, we need to stop the growth of Dublin over the next 20 or 25 years. I think Deputy Rabbitte will agree that we do not want to have 2 million people, from a total population of 5 million, living in Dublin. I do not suggest that decentralisation will bring an end to all of these problems — I am not making that argument. We must ensure Dublin city is not crippled by its population. This does not happen in other countries. Balanced regional development means the State has a role to play in moving people and industry to the regions in every possible way and we must be aggressive in doing so. The 10,000 people represent a small part because, even if they went tomorrow, they are only 10,000 out of 4.3 million people. We must stop the strangulation of the Dublin area which is neither good for Dublin nor the rest of the country.
The latest report by the decentralisation implementation group, DIG, points out that there is a low level of interest among what is described as expert staff. Is this reflected in the Department of the Taoiseach? Does the Taoiseach recognise this point? Can the Taoiseach tell us if there are further decentralisation plans relating to staff in his Department and will further staff be taking up opportunities during the remainder of 2006 and 2007? It is expected that a further 2,000 relocations will occur during this period.
The Taoiseach made a statement on the State agencies earlier. Can he clarify his response regarding those agencies under the control of his Department?
I think more people will apply to be moved under decentralisation and 20% of the Department has already moved. The Minister for Finance informs me there are 34 locations under development around the country and, as this rolls out, people from my Department will join the list as has happened over the past number of years.
Some specialists might also move. Some of the agencies in my Department have specialists and very talented people. However, they are not scientists or microbiologists as in other Departments and agencies. People may leave from the area of statistics and this could create difficulties which would necessitate retraining.
The Marine Institute moved to Galway and only a small number of employees chose not to move as a result. A very technical area of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has moved to Clonakilty. These things work themselves out over time. There must be a means of negotiation and, with negotiation, the process will work.