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Illness Benefit Costs

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 16 October 2012

Tuesday, 16 October 2012

Questions (54)

John Halligan

Question:

54. Deputy John Halligan asked the Minister for Social Protection the position in relation to transferring the responsibility for the provision of sick pay from the State to employers for the first two to four weeks of illness; if she intends bringing forward accompanying legislation to require employers to pay full sick leave to employees; if she has had any consultations with employers groups IBEC or ISME regarding the implications of this proposal; her views on whether this would widen the gap between the public and private sectors in terms of job security; if she has reached any conclusions on the way they might adequately manage the levels of absenteeism which exists in Government Departments; if she will acknowledge that moving the responsibility of the provision of sick pay entitlements to employers would affect the private sector placing an additional unsupportable burden on many employers who are already struggling in the current economic climate; if she is considering a State sponsored insurance scheme that could mitigate the burden for smaller firms; if she will now acknowledge that this proposal may in fact make Ireland less competitive internationally at a time when we should be promoting markets, creating opportunities for businesses to grow and create sustainable employment; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [44934/12]

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Oral answers (14 contributions)

This is a lengthy question.

It is an important question. I hope the Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

I am hoping the Minister will give me a detailed reply to it.

There is only six minutes allowed for this question.

I am not sure if I can do full justice to the question in six minutes.

I thank Deputy Halligan for his question. To set the issue of statutory sick pay in context, total expenditure on the key illness and disability payments administered by the Department, namely, illness benefit, invalidity pension and disability allowance, amounted to some €10.6 billion in the period from 2008 to 2011. Of that amount, some €3.6 billion relates to illness benefit. The estimated cost of the illness benefit scheme in 2012 is €847 million. This, again, is another big ticket item in the Department, as are the cumulative amounts which are over €3 billion per annum.

Against this background, there are a number of compelling reasons the Government is at this time considering the introduction of a scheme of statutory sick pay to cover public and private sector employers. First, it is necessary to take steps to address the deficit in the Social Insurance Fund from which illness benefit, among other insurance-based benefits and pensions, is paid. In 2011, the deficit in the fund was approximately €1.5 billion. Second, such a scheme would help to limit progression from short-term illness to long-term illness or disability, except obviously in the case of people who have a serious disability. Third, it would serve to bring Ireland into line with practice in other countries in this area. Fourth, it would contribute towards enhancing the health of the workforce and achieve active management of absenteeism. This is the way in which the Scandinavian countries, which have good social protection systems, work. They have good outcomes and good social protection systems.

Additional Information not give on the floor of the House

In considering the matter, I am acutely conscious of the pressures facing employers in the current economic climate, and, in particular, the pressures facing smaller and medium-sized enterprises. I am equally conscious of the need to maintain competitiveness, facilitate business opportunities and generate sustainable employment. I would not accept that introducing a scheme of statutory sick pay would necessarily lead to greater job insecurity in the private sector and experience from other countries supports my view. In this regard, I wish to make it clear that the three day waiting period which currently applies in respect of illness benefit would also apply in any scheme of statutory sick pay introduced.

The question of providing for possible compensatory mechanisms for particularly vulnerable employers is just one of a range of complex issues that need to be addressed before any decision could be taken by Government on the possible introduction of a statutory sick pay scheme. Other issues include the extent of coverage, the rate of payment and how a scheme would be enforced. The Department has engaged in wide ranging consultation to date and all of these issues will again be discussed in the course of the wider process associated with the preparation of budget 2013.

The Deputy will be aware that questions associated with absenteeism generally in the public sector are being addressed by my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, and proposals for change in this area are being advanced at present.

I thank the Minister for her reply. While her desire to address the level of absenteeism in the public and private sector is commendable - I do not have a problem with it - like many other people I believe these proposals will have a terrible impact on jobs, in particular in the small and medium business sector. There is much made of the crucial role which multinationals play in the Irish market.

I am fearful the critical role small and medium-sized enterprises play in villages, small towns and city centres is being gravely overlooked. The influential report, A Blueprint for Ireland's Recovery, drafted by leading business figures, places SMEs at the front line of economic recovery. However, the survey released last week by ISME stated 96% of SMEs expect job losses if the Minister's proposals are introduced. SMEs already contribute significantly to the social welfare fund through the PRSI system and cannot take any more. An average of five small companies a week are going bust or are unable to access capital. If the Minister's proposed measures are introduced, they will undoubtedly result in longer dole queues. Those of us on the left are also concerned it may force employers to revisit any sick pay policies they offer, which would be wholly unfair to the workers.

A question for the Minister.

My question is straightforward. I understand there has been little or no dialogue on the proposal with business communities. On many occasions the Chamber of Commerce in Waterford sought a meeting with the Minister. I know she is very busy but at the very least she should have met it. Will the Minister agree to establish an interdepartmental working group with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation to conduct a regulatory impact assessment of these proposals? Will she discuss the practicalities of such proposals with small business groups?

I reassure the Deputy I have had many opportunities to meet business groups and employers of various sized businesses throughout the country. I emphasise that any proposal applies as much to the public sector as the private sector. I am very conscious of the need to maintain competitiveness, facilitate business growth and opportunities, generate sustainable employment and maintain the employment we have. I do not accept that introducing a statutory sick pay scheme would necessarily lead to greater job insecurity in the private sector. We are the only OECD country with our particular structure. According to our proposals, the three-day waiting period which applies at present in respect of illness benefit would also apply in any statutory sick pay scheme introduced.

Another question is whether we need to provide possible compensatory mechanisms for particularly vulnerable employers, including the type of SME referred to by the Deputy. This needs to be addressed and taken into account before any decision can be made by the Government. The difficulty is that illness benefit is paid from a social insurance fund which was in deficit to the tune of €1.5 billion last year and this year it will be €1.82 billion short. The fund from which statutory benefits are paid, and which we all want to keep intact following our earlier discussion, is short of money by a considerable degree. We must address how to restore stability to the social insurance fund over a period of time. It will stabilise enormously as employment returns to the economy but it is the mechanism by which we make payments such as jobseeker's benefit, contributory old age pensions and significant amounts in sickness benefit.

Everyone agrees that expenditure needs to be reduced, but a statutory sick pay scheme cannot be introduced in isolation and cuts that have the least effect on unemployment need to be made.

I have an interesting statistic. According to ISME, the typical number of days lost per annum due to absenteeism in small firms is three compared to the massively inefficient figure of over 12 days in the public sector. The point I am making, which the Minister may have taken on board, is that it is the small to medium-sized businesses which are on the edge. I spoke here a few months ago about a family business whose owners worked 70 hours per week and took home €390 after they paid all their costs and VAT. They are barely surviving, so a small amount of extra costs on their business could turn it over. The same is applicable to businesses across the country.

The Deputy makes the point very well. Based on what we know from various surveys, absenteeism levels are significantly higher in the public sector than in the private sector. I reiterate that the current system, which there are no proposals to change, stipulates that the first three days are not paid for by the employer or the State but are covered by the individual. It is not proposed to change that. The proposal involves having a look at reducing the overall levels of illness, particularly in the public sector, with which my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, is dealing. I do not want to mention the Croke Park agreement but there are certain reforms under discussion and there are positive outcomes. The critical thing internationally is that if issues like illness are dealt with at the firm, group, operations or departmental level, there are much better outcomes for the employees. Otherwise, one risks a situation arising where a percentage of people end up taking long-term illness leave. I am not referring here to those who have an accident or very serious illness which may be life-threatening; that is understood by everybody. However, as the Deputy noted, in parts of the public sector, building up a significant number of sick days has become, unfortunately, something that is an Irish experience. It was so in other countries but they have reformed the system to put the emphasis on wellness at work. For example, if somebody's lifestyle resulted in him or her having repeated periods of illness, the firm and management, be they in the public or private sector, would help that individual to address those difficulties to avoid it becoming a chronic condition and possibly leading to that person leaving the workforce.

Questions Nos. 55 and 56 answered with Question No. 53.
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