Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 28 November 2013
4. Deputy Willie O'Dea asked the Minister for Social Protection her Department's policy on the use of Garda checkpoints to counter welfare fraud; the criteria being used by her Department in the deployment of gardaí; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [50876/13]
View answerLast October, the Minister announced a policy initiative directly involving the Garda in the investigation and combating of social welfare fraud. What I want to ascertain here is whether that policy has been put in place, where, and how successful has it been?
There is a good working relationship between the Department of Social Protection and An Garda Síochána. We closely co-operate with each other in the context of multi-agency operations and investigations to combat social welfare fraud.
A proposal for the secondment of 20 gardaí to the Department of Social Protection to assist with fraud investigation work is currently being progressed with the Department of Justice and Equality and An Garda Síochána. This pilot scheme has been approved by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It involves the secondment of the 20 officers to my Department's special investigation unit, our key unit in investing fraud. I hope it will be a significant and important resource. The secondment will be for 12 months and the gardaí seconded will undertake the full range of investigative duties in detecting and combating social welfare fraud. It is also envisaged that they will retain their powers as gardaí for the duration of the secondment. They will be appointed with powers under the Social Welfare Acts to enable them to work with officers from the special investigation unit and they will perform all relevant social welfare fraud investigations.
As part of the initiative to prevent and detect fraud, the Department participates in multi-agency vehicle checkpoints, MAVCs, on an ongoing basis with other agencies, particularly the Garda Síochána and Revenue. For example, recently in the mid-west, Deputy O'Dea's region, there was an MAVC aimed at road haulage operators. This checkpoint, which lasted, as is typical, for two hours, resulted in the detection of three cases of concurrent working and claiming of social welfare payments with consequent savings of €67,000.
These checkpoints are carried out from time to time and are aimed at road haulage operators, those driving commercial vehicles, and taxis. Earlier this year there was a specific examination of persons involved in transport in the scrap metal sector.
If I understand the Minister's reply correctly, the multi-agency road checkpoint system has been in place for a quarter of a century but this is a new initiative.
Yes.
It has not yet come into operation. Discussions are still ongoing with the Garda. Is my understanding of that correct?
Speaking on Newstalk, on 16 October last, the Minister referred to this recruitment of 20 extra gardaí who, she stated, would be concentrating on areas such as airports, etc. She went on to state that the Department will also be looking at areas such as checkpoints in estates and on roads, early in the morning as those who otherwise are claiming benefits are going off to work, either self-employed or working and not declaring it. Is my understanding correct that Garda checkpoints will be set up at the entrance to estates on public roads where residents are going to work with a view to stopping them to ask are they engaged in social welfare fraud or on social welfare? Is that how the system will work?
To give Deputy O'Dea some background that might be helpful, in the period 2010 to 2013 there have been a total of 270 multi-agency vehicle checkpoints.
I am asking about the new initiative, not the multi-agency checkpoints.
The Minister is replying.
The secondment of the gardaí directly to the Department of Social Protection is the new initiative. The multi-agency vehicle checkpoints have been increased quite significantly in recent years.
In case the Deputy is in any doubt, I made it clear that the estates I was referring to are industrial estates. In this case, those being approached - the Revenue Commissioners made the same approaches - would be driving commercial vehicles and there would be checks to see whether drivers are also claiming social welfare. It has happened, for instance, where somebody was signing on sick when stopped by the multi-agency vehicle checkpoint and the person acknowledged having only begun working and merely having not had the time to go down to the local social welfare office to sign off.
I thank the Minister.
Of course, the presence of the multi-agency vehicle checkpoint encouraged the person to go to sign off. That case would be subject to investigation to see whether there was a wider issue.
As the Deputy will be aware, I brought in legislation on airports where a significant project was set up to look at those who may be welfare tourists coming repeatedly to the country with a view of collecting social welfare to which they are no longer entitled having left the country.
I refer to the Minister's own words. She said nothing about industrial estates. She stated that the Department will be looking at areas, such as checkpoints, in estates - nothing about industrial - and on roads, early in the morning. Is the Minister telling us that this will be part of the present multi-agency system or will it be a separate initiative by the gardaí, on behalf of the Department of Social Protection, where the gardaí will be directly involved in stopping and questioning persons on suspicion of social welfare fraud? How will it work? The Minister keeps referring to the multi-agency checkpoints. Wherever the gardaí stop and question persons, will they have to be part of a multi-agency operation or can they do it on their own as a result of this initiative?
First, I will not comment in any detail on the powers of the Garda. The multi-agency vehicle checkpoints have been underway for some time and they are a significant and important technique in terms of detecting persons who may be involved in tax, social welfare or other fraud.
We know all that. Will the Minister answer the question?
On the reason for extending these and enhancing the resources, the special investigation unit of my Department is responsible for participating in these with the Garda Síochána, and having members of the Garda Síochána working with their expertise and powers on a trial basis in the Department------
Will the gardaí be able to stop persons on their own?
-----will significantly enhance the investigative powers of the Department to combat fraud.
Will the gardaí be able to have these checkpoints on their own, not as part of a multi-agency system?
The gardaí, under the Garda Commissioner, can do whatever they wish to do on their own.
So they will be stopping persons on their own.
Deputy O'Dea is speaking about the Garda and the Garda Commissioner's powers. As Deputy O'Dea will be well aware, the Garda Commissioner has powers to do whatever appears to be appropriate to combat crime and provide for law and order in the context of the resources of the force as it sees fit. There is no change in that regard.
Ceist a cúig now. I am sorry. In fairness, Deputies Broughan and Joan Collins are here. We must keep going.
To clarify, the Minister is saying the gardaí will now be able to operate on their own at checkpoints in estates, etc.
I apologise but we must move on to Question No. 5 in the name of Deputy Ó Snodaigh.
Why confine it to the Garda? Why not send in the Army?
