Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 25 February 2014
107. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Skills his views on the national audit of guidance and counselling practice in second level schools in Ireland 2011-2013; the implications of the national audit; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8918/14]
View answer120. Deputy Charlie McConalogue asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will make a policy decision to utilise the facility database in his Department, which is the database used by schools for making their returns, to determine if all post-primary schools are complying with the requirements of section 9(c) of the Education Act; the schools which employ a guidance counsellor with a qualification recognised by his Department and the schools which do not do so; the number of hours each of these guidance counsellors was given to do his or her specific guidance work in 2011-12 in comparison with 2012-13; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9147/14]
View answerMy question relates to the national audit on guidance counselling which was carried out by the National Centre for Guidance in Education. While the question refers to the years 2011 to 2013, the centre has updated its review to 2014.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 107 and 120 together.
The survey cited by the Deputy is focused on guidance counsellors, in particular on the time spent by them in a one-to-one setting giving career guidance and student counselling. It is important to note that guidance is a whole-school activity and does not only involve the guidance counsellor. For this reason, the implications of the survey are somewhat limited. Wherever possible, group work and class-based activity should be used to maximise the amount of time available for those pupils who are in most need of one-to-one support.
Section 9(c) of the Act requires schools to use their available resources to ensure students have access to appropriate guidance to assist them in their educational and career choices.
Given that guidance is a whole-school activity and does not just involve the guidance counsellor, the type of data suggested by the Deputy would not give the complete picture on guidance provision. The returns my Department receives from schools is focused on pupil enrolments and this information is used to determine staffing and grant allocations. I do not intend to add to the administrative workload of schools by requiring them also to submit the type of information suggested by the Deputy. The Department does not hold any information on guidance counsellors, including their qualifications. Having teachers trained as guidance counsellors is of course valuable but given that it is a whole-school activity, we need to be careful that an emphasis on qualifications does not result in a restriction on who can best contribute to the needs and welfare of students.
In regard to the number of hours guidance counsellors were given to do their work, it should be noted that schools have autonomy on managing guidance provision from within their standard staffing allocations. I do not intend to micro-manage schools in relation to guidance or indeed the subject choices they make. Furthermore, I am reluctant to add to their administrative workload by requiring them to make overly detailed returns to the Department. I am confident schools act in the best interests of students when determining how best to use the teaching resources available to them.
The finding of the audit undertaken by the guidance counsellors was supported by the review of the National Centre for Guidance in Education which recommended the restoration of the ex-quota allocations for guidance. I accept that guidance is a whole-school activity, as the Minister said, but there is a need within schools for somebody to drive that. As a result of cutbacks, the middle management layer in our schools, particularly voluntary secondary schools, has been eliminated, resulting in the onus being much more on principals. This means they have too much work to do to be the driver of this.
What we have within the guidance counsellor is a person with a basic qualification. I know, as I am sure the Minister does, that many guidance counsellors have done considerable courses in counselling and psychotherapy in their own time and at their own expense. These people are not being fully utilised. I will not argue with the Minister in regard to the statistics and the manner in which they are collected, except to say that I am speaking about people already in the system and the impact of cuts in this area. At a time when there is great emphasis on mental health and the promotion of mental health, we are eliminating a group of people who are highly skilled and can be part of that process. We are missing out on those skills.
I welcome the Deputy's comments and acknowledge her personal experience in this area. I do not intend to return to the ex-quota system. I would like to see additional resources become available in order that we could increase the staffing allocation generally, but it is for the school leadership and principals of schools to decide how best to deploy those resources, although I believe I am at variance with some of the people in the Institute of Guidance Counsellors here in this regard.
The Deputy referred to teachers with a basic secondary qualification upskilling to become guidance counsellors. There is evidence - largely anecdotal but we will soon have statistics in this regard - of massive investment in CPD by teachers across a whole spectrum of areas, of which counselling and guidance is but one. I would like to see that recognised in the first instance. Hopefully the registrar of the Teaching Council will be able to do this so that we will not have to undertake the type of statistical exercise mentioned by the Deputy. It is important we ensure best use of that skill set in our schools.
I accept that as a result of cuts introduced in various budgets dating back as far as 2009, middle management has been hollowed out and this needs to be restored as soon as possible. I intend to do that.
I thank the Minister for his reply. Deputy O'Sullivan outlined the impact of the guidance counsellor cuts in terms of the promotion of mental health. Another key role of the guidance counsellor is career guidance. The survey carried out by the Institute of Guidance Counsellors indicates that one-to-one time has dropped to 41% of what it was prior to the cuts, which is having a real impact. At third level, 9% of first year honours students do not progress to second year. The percentage in this regard in the institute of technology area is 16%. Guidance counsellors are important in the context of the assistance they can provide in this regard.
The Minister did not respond adequately to my question, which relates to the use of the facility database in the Department of Education and Skills. His response was that he does not intend to require schools to make any more detailed returns than they already do.
Thank you, Deputy.
My understanding is that schools currently make returns to the Department in respect of the teachers they have employed, their subject areas and on what they spend their hours. In replies to parliamentary questions I have put to the Department, I have been told that there is a facility database which holds the information but that the policy of the Department is not to extract that type of information.
Thank you, Deputy. I have to call the Minister now.
I will finish. The Minister outlined in his answer that he is leaving it to the schools. He suggested that it is their role to decide on the career guidance hours that each teacher should put in. However, I believe the Minister should also have a management role.
Thank you, Deputy McConalogue, please.
He is eating into our time.
The Minister has the ability to access the specific information. I am calling for a response in this regard.
Deputy, you are way over time. Many other Deputies have to get in.
I know what the Deputy is saying and I will look into the matter.
One thing I acknowledge in the report is the statistic that 96% of guidance counsellors are released from their schools for supervision, and that is good. Another statistic indicates that fee-paying schools have lost less as a result of the impact of what has been happening with guidance counsellors. I acknowledge that for any ill that comes up in society the answer is that the schools will deal with it. We are losing the skill set of a group of people who could be leaders when it comes to addressing the ills that come up in society.
I ask the Minister to get back to me with a clear answer. Does the Department currently gather the information? Is it, therefore, in the facility database? If that is the case, will the Minister make a policy decision to extract it in order that we can have that information?
We do collect the information. Part of the difficulty relates to the ability to retrieve it in a user-friendly format. That is one of the things we are looking at. We had this exchange earlier in respect of primary schools. The information is gathered but it is stored in such a way that it takes a long time for it to be checked, double-checked and made available. I am not satisfied with the way we are using information and I hope we will be able to change and improve the situation so it can be accessed more readily.
