Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 27 November 2014
15. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Education and Skills the funding she has allocated to the reform of the apprenticeship system and for introducing new apprenticeship schemes and expanding current schemes. [45119/14]
View answerIt is not possible at this stage to accurately estimate the costs associated with the development of new apprenticeships. I have established the Apprenticeship Council which will make a call for proposals, hopefully before the end of this year, from enterprise sectors partnering with education and training providers for the development of new apprenticeships. The amount of financial support required will depend on a number of factors, including the amount of sustainable proposals that come in. We hope that through engagement there will be a lot of interest in this. There is a lot of talk about it and it is up to industry to get involved through the various structures and come back with proposals which will be analysed. That will give us an idea of how many proposals can be moved on to be developed as an apprenticeship model and a fair idea of the costs. As the year progresses, we will get a better idea of this but at the moment it is very hard to project.
We are hoping through engagement that there will be a great deal of interest in this. Certainly, there is a great deal of talk in industry about the need for this development. It is up to industry to get involved here through all the various structures. After it has made its proposals, they will be analysed and dealt with. At that point, we will have an idea of the number of proposals that can be advanced to being developed as apprenticeship models. We will have a fair idea of the costs at that stage. We will get a better feel for this as the year progresses. At the moment, it is very hard to predict how it will develop.
I thank the Minister of State for his answer. The review of the apprenticeship system provides us with huge opportunities. When we discussed this matter at joint committee level, we received very positive feedback from all quarters about the expansion beyond the traditional apprenticeship schemes and targeting of more women, which is also important. I suggest that the focus on secondary skills, such as literacy and numeracy, is the most important aspect of this whole issue. For too long, people who have done apprentice schemes and qualified in a particular trade have suffered as a result of the crash-boom, crash-boom economic cycle in this country. When this country has been in recession, these individuals have been out of a job. They do not have the secondary skills to step aside into a different profession. The focus that is being placed in the new scheme will be of huge benefit. I want to make sure it will be resourced adequately. I think there is huge potential here.
I accept that the Deputy's comments are totally genuine. I think most people are supportive of what we are trying to do here. The Deputy is right. The new design and the new model will cater for that. It will make sure not only that people can build long-term careers on top of their apprenticeship qualifications, but also that much more is covered by the qualifications in the first instance. The costs should not be an issue. It should be possible to cater for numeracy and literacy issues and set the curriculums around the new proposals within the existing budget. We are within that budget at the moment. We are not yet sure of what the cost of the subsequent enterprise engagement will be. It is more than likely that such costs will not come in until towards the end of next year or early in 2016. This system is designed to ensure the other core parts of the education of these people are dealt with through the existing budgets, which are quite sustainable. As the Deputy knows, the budget in this area has been protected. Indeed, there has been a slight increase. It is an area we are focussing on. The idea is that people will not be caught out in the future by virtue of the timing of their skills. It is about having skills that are transferable. The Deputy will agree that the number of apprentices in this country is far too low. I hope this initiative will lead to an increase. I stress that we must see industry involvement here. I think the Deputy will agree with me in this regard. Companies in various sectors are telling us on a weekly basis that they need skills for the future and that they need help. There has to be engagement. Apprenticeships all over the world are based on enterprise engagement. There is a collaboration between education and enterprise. Enterprise must step up in this case.
I concur with what the Minister of State has said. The engagement of enterprise when people are being trained is a critical cog in the success, or potential success, of this scheme. If enterprise comes on board, it will facilitate long-term planning and vision in terms of the courses we are designing. That is critical. We cannot have the system that existed in the past, when people were qualifying in trades that had gone into decline by the time they eventually qualified.
Absolutely.
We are seeing an over-abundance of people who are qualified in a particular trade but do not have the necessary secondary skills to transfer to another trade and continue on a progression path in that trade. The engagement of enterprise is critical.
I agree with the Deputy. The composition of the apprenticeship council has been got right. There is a good blend of all the talents on the council. A number of people on the council will have insights into enterprise. They will work alongside representatives of unions and providers, etc. We have the right balance there. I am confident that as a result of all the new reforms and structures - I refer, for example, to the apprenticeship council, SOLAS, the five-year plans and the annual service-level agreements with the education and training boards - the right system is now in place to make this happen. If enterprise is involved in planning and ongoing engagement from an early stage, as Deputy O'Brien has suggested, our predictions should be right and we should no longer be behind the curve from a skills perspective. It is likely that other initiatives will come through from the apprenticeship council model and the call for proposals. Such initiatives might be better suited to a traineeship or some other scheme. We can design and work on that. It is about trying to find out exactly what is needed. We have a fair idea from the work that is going on at the moment. We need to get in the firm proposals. If they are better suited to a different scheme, we will have to tailor them as appropriate. I hope there will be a great deal of interest in this. I hope all the players who have shown an interest in it over the last couple of months will follow through.
I would like to ask a supplementary question on the issue of apprenticeships, which has been raised by Deputy O'Brien. In the past, one of the reasons the semi-State companies were so respected and liked was because they offered a significant number of apprenticeships. Much has been made of the comparison between the development of rural electrification by the ESB and the establishment of Irish Water. The ESB used to offer many apprenticeships. It was an important source of employment throughout County Clare, particularly in Ardnacrusha and Moneypoint. Irish Water does not really offer apprenticeships. As the ESB has become more commercial in its operations, it has not offered the same number of apprenticeships. It does not take on people unless it thinks there is an actual market there for them. Will the apprenticeship council engage with semi-States to see what training opportunities may arise? Even if the semi-State companies do not have a long-term plan to keep those who might be taken on as apprentices, they can fulfil a very important social and educational function by providing apprenticeships. If people have a City & Guilds qualification, it can help them to enter the labour market in Ireland or elsewhere with a view to coming back to Ireland at a later stage.
I am glad to confirm for the Deputy that we have spoken at length about the need to ensure the semi-State companies have a role in this initiative. I remind the House that the new chairman of the apprenticeship council comes from a semi-State body. The chief executive of the ESB is the chairman of the council. That appointment was made to ensure we have the necessary engagement in this area. As I said earlier, we want to make sure all the sectors are at the table when the council is making decisions. That will make them step up to the mark as well. In addition to advancing this initiative through the semi-State companies, we are also trying to see how we can use State contracts to address certain needs. We discussed that at a management meeting yesterday. I refer, for example, to social clauses like that which applies in the case of the Grangegorman site. A certain number of apprentices could be required. I am glad to say that the Office of Public Works started another round of apprenticeships in the last couple of months. In many of these cases, the number of places dried up in the last while. A number of new apprenticeships have been made available in the Office of Public Works. That is a key area for the development of talents. There has been a general increase in apprenticeships in all the trades. Deputy McNamara is right. We will monitor this to ensure the State bodies are involved.
