Early School Leavers

Wednesday, 10 June 2015

Questions (7)

Tom Fleming

Question:

7. Deputy Tom Fleming asked the Minister for Education and Skills if she will introduce a scheme for early school leavers, given that approximately one in five second level students, from the age of 13 or 14, are currently disengaging from school, whereby they could engage in a three or four year apprenticeship in the skills required by modern manufacturing and service industries for 50% of the time, and they could also continue in school with their peers studying in a core academic curriculum, as the model exists for this very successful vocational training option for students in Germany, under the European baccalaureate vocational model; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [21922/15]

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Oral answers (16 contributions)

Deputy Tom Fleming

Will the Minister consider introducing a scheme to facilitate early school leavers, because currently approximately 20% of students disengage from second level education?

The scheme would engage students for a period of three to four years in an apprenticeship which would be particularly suitable for the skills required by modern employers in industry, including the manufacturing and service industries. The scheme is already in place in Europe, in particular, Germany. It is called the baccalaureate system. It allows students to continue their education on a 50% basis and they are seconded to an apprenticeship on a 50% basis, which runs concurrently. Will the Minister consider seriously the introduction of such a scheme?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The Deputy may be aware of a report from last February showing that of students who started post-primary school in 2008 almost 97% sat the junior certificate and more than 90% sat the leaving certificate. Ireland's upper secondary retention rates compare favourably with other EU member states. In Ireland we have a broad and balanced model of education which seeks not to compartmentalise students' learning at too early an age. An expert independent group has recently recommended against making employment-based training programmes or apprenticeships available to Irish students under 16. We also currently provide vocational opportunities through the leaving certificate vocational programme. This programme is taken by about 30% of students and combines academic subjects with so-called link modules which focus on enterprise and preparation for the world of work. The leaving certificate applied also provides vocational opportunities for senior cycle students. Pathways like Youthreach give such options for early school leavers. Work experience also features prominently in transition year, which is taken by two thirds of 15 and 16 year olds. Ireland is moving in the right direction in providing a broad balanced education for students, while having regard to best practice in other countries.

On the apprenticeship issue, we are really talking about students aged 16 years and upwards in full apprenticeships which involves employers and so forth, on which the Minister of State, Deputy English, has just spoken.

Deputy Tom Fleming

Students are disengaging from school or dropping out in first or second year for various social reasons - for instance, some pupils are not academic. Those who are lost in the system are going down a cul-de-sac and have nowhere to go. We know the consequences of that. They can find themselves in an undesirable situation, which can pose huge problems for families and communities. I am not condemning anyone as such because they are victims, perhaps, of our system. It is time to grasp the nettle. I understand the Minister's explanation but the percentages and statistics I have been given are alarming. Will the Minister review the matter? We can look to the European systems, which are very successful. Employers are looking for matching skills. If these people could come out of our education system at 18 or 19 years of age with sufficient training, this is something we cannot ignore.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

As indicated in the response of the Minister of State, Deputy English, we are looking seriously at widening the whole concept of apprenticeships and providing that alternative path for students as a real career opportunity and we are encouraging parents to see that as an absolutely viable and equal alternative. We do not favour children setting out on that path at too early an age. Some 97% of children sit the junior cycle examinations. The percentages that drop out at that early age are actually very small. We want students to stay in school until they are 16.

The junior cycle reform, on which I have been working fairly hard since I became Minister, is precisely about giving the opportunity to value different students and their different skills, which is why we want assessment in the school of group work, practical work and so on. That is specifically designed to address students who are disengaged at that early age and to ensure they are valued for their skills and abilities. I stand over that policy. We want children to stay in school until they are 16 and then have the different pathways.

Deputy Tom Fleming

The vocational model currently utilised in Germany, in particular, is of high quality and is successful on the Continent. We would want to look more closely at it. We also have to examine the needs of employers and the quality of qualifications. In some cases, employers may have to wait too long to get people who may be coming out of third level but who may not have degrees that are suitable to the current requirements of employers. We also have to look at the demands made by foreign direct investment. We are not satisfying the needs of those people either. The other matter I raise is modern languages-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is way over time.

Deputy Tom Fleming

-----which have been taken off the primary school curriculum. It is a huge loss that we cannot give pupils a grounding in continental languages, which would enable them to access employment, in particular with various technology industries at the moment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Tom Fleming

We would want to examine the issue of satisfying the requirements of those associated with foreign direct investment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will Deputy Fleming and other Members please watch the clock? We are over time.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I will be very brief.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Minister conclude, please?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I do not disagree with Deputy Fleming on any of those matters. He is right about languages and so on. I differ with the Deputy, however, on the age at which young people should start in the workplace. We are learning from Germany and Austria and we want to follow their models with regard to having many more apprenticeship opportunities-----