Mick Barry
Question:1. Deputy Mick Barry asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Chancellor of Germany, Ms Angela Merkel. [22241/16]
View answerTuesday, 27 September 2016
Questions (1)
Oral answers (23 contributions)
I met Chancellor Merkel in Berlin on 12 July. Our discussion focused on the outcome of the UK referendum and its implications for Ireland, Germany and the European Union more generally. Over the past year, including at meetings of the European Council and most recently at the informal summit of 27 in Bratislava earlier this month, I have had many constructive exchanges with the Chancellor and with other EU Heads of State or Government, where I have outlined Ireland's unique relationship with the UK. I took the opportunity to elaborate on this at my meeting with Chancellor Merkel in Berlin and to explain our particular concerns to her, including in regard to Northern Ireland, North-South relations, the common travel area and bilateral trade. I was pleased to find her fully aware of, and sympathetic to, those concerns and to have her assurances that we share the objective of constructive negotiations towards a close future relationship between the EU and the UK.
On a point of order, is Question No. 2 also being dealt with now?
It is Question No. 1.
Deputy Mick Barry is not here.
We can still answer this question and supplementary questions can be asked.
Chancellor Merkel and I were in full agreement that whenever Article 50 is invoked and formal negotiations on the UK’s withdrawal commence, it will fall to EU Heads of State or Government, as members of the European Council, to set strategic direction and make the key decisions. Ireland will be one of the 27 remaining member states involved in these discussions and, as the State most directly affected by the UK's withdrawal, we will play a central role in them, beginning with the framing of the negotiating mandate. As I explained to the Chancellor, this is a case of ensuring that Ireland's specific concerns are addressed in the agreement that is ultimately reached between the UK and the EU. These concerns, above all the preservation of peace and stability in Northern Ireland, are not only in the interests of Ireland and the UK but of the EU as a whole, a point which Chancellor Merkel clearly recognised.
We will take supplementary questions. I call Deputy Adams, who has indicated.
I welcome the fact the Taoiseach raised the outworking of the Brexit vote with the German Chancellor. I also have a question down about his meeting with the British Prime Minister, so I will leave that issue until then.
On a separate issue, a Cheann Comhairle, I had difficulty hearing the Taoiseach earlier and I think the Taoiseach is now having difficulty.
I can hear the Deputy now. I was having difficulty but the Clerk has given me a gadget so I can hear very clearly. It is sometimes difficult when there is noise across the Chamber.
Teething problems.
I think the sound system is working very well. Maybe people should get their own personal hearing systems attended to.
Did the Taoiseach raise the issue of the European Commission's decision in respect of the Apple billions with the German Chancellor? If he did, does he know the German state's position? Does it support the Government's, in our opinion, wrongful appeal against this?
The Taoiseach will know better than I that the German Chancellor is under huge pressure, especially on the issue of refugees and the future of Deutsche Bank, which she is refusing to bail out. The collapse of this bank will have real implications for the EU economy and potentially, for all I know, for the global economy as well. Did the Taoiseach discuss any of this and has any of it, in so far as it is possible to do so, been factored into calculations for the budget?
I want to come back to the issue of the refugees. It is devastating to watch what is happening in the besieged city of Aleppo and journalists and commentators have almost run out of words to describe it. Some 250,000 people are under daily bombardment, many without water and with little food. I welcome the endorsement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, of the UN's efforts to broker a peace deal. Will the Taoiseach outline what measures the Government is taking to assist this process and what support it is providing to aid agencies and to the UN?
With regard to the discussions with Chancellor Merkel on Brexit, we know there is a lack of preparation on the British side and Britain is now in the process of trying to get its act together in regard to negotiations but it can be said the position in regard to Europe is equally unclear. I get the sense that, across Europe, there seems to be a view that Brexit is no longer the central issue, that we can get on fine without Britain and so on. That is a dangerous view because, in my view, there is a mutual interdependence between the United Kingdom and the European Union in terms of the volume of trade between both markets and the value system we embrace within the EU in terms of basic democracy, respect for human rights and the underpinning of democratic principles. I believe the dilution and reduction in the size and scale of the EU is a blow to democracy, ultimately, and to the idea of progressive values. Whereas we all have faults and every member state has faults, some more than others, Europe needs to change its attitude at all levels towards the UK and Brexit.
I suspect, and the Taoiseach might confirm, that the Chancellor may be more of that disposition and I think Germany realises the mutual interdependence between the UK and the EU.
We need to see more of that attitude to the fore in the discussions that will take place once Article 50 is commenced by the British Government. On the British side, there are people who are ridiculously posturing in terms of a hard Brexit, with groups being formed within the Tory Party to say Brexit means Brexit, with calamitous results both for the British people in terms of the economy and economic growth and jobs but likewise it is of no great benefit to Europe either because Europe will equally lose out in such a scenario because unexpected consequences could flow from a difficult separation, as it were. There is much uncharted territory in terms of Brexit. Did the Taoiseach get an indication from the Chancellor as to how Germany intends to approach the issue, in particular within the European Union?
Second, in terms of what is happening in Syria, this refugee crisis is without question unprecedented and represents one of the greatest scandals and appalling misery visited on a people since the Second World War and its aftermath. It is fair to say that the international institutions, including the European Union, have not responded properly, adequately or comprehensively enough to what is a refugee crisis caused by war. It is not about normal economic migration or asylum seeking. It is a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions which will continue.
To be fair to Chancellor Merkel, she made perhaps one of the bravest moves across Europe and is suffering electorally at the polls because of that. The European Union’s relationship with Russia must come into question following what has happened in recent days in Aleppo. There seems to be great reluctance in some quarters to call it as it is. Some journalists in The Guardian and elsewhere have described the razing of Aleppo, including the bombing of aid convoys, as equivalent to what happened in Stalingrad. It is very clear that the Russia-Syrian Government alliance is responsible for the assault that is currently under way in eastern Aleppo. People in this House need to call that for what it is as well. It is unacceptable. To be fair, at the United Nations, people took their gloves off in terms of articulating the unacceptable nature of what is going on. The situation calls into question in a very fundamental way the relationship between the European Union and Russia, which is already strained due to sanctions imposed on foot of the situation in Ukraine, but what is going on currently is at a new level.
Hungary also needs to be taken on within the European Union. I do not know whether the Taoiseach has had discussions with Chancellor Merkel on the matter but the Hungarian Prime Minister’s utterances in the past week are shocking and completely contrary to any European set of values. He talked about ring-fencing a city in an island somewhere off the Libyan coast to put all the refugees. The stage must come when Europe either means something in terms of a basic value system or it does not. We cannot just accommodate everybody because we want to be nice to everybody and say it is great to have 28, or now 27, members in the European Union. The Hungarian Government has an obligation to subscribe to the core values and principles of the European Union. It is entitled to disagree but Hungary is not entitled to be part of the European Union given the kind of inflammatory, unacceptable rhetoric emanating recently from its government.
In terms of the meeting with Dr. Merkel, does the Taoiseach consider that she recognises in reality the very special interest Ireland has on the Brexit proposals and that it is not just a rhetorical acknowledgement of it? In that context, did the Taoiseach get any information from her on whether the Commission’s negotiating team will contain a strong Irish presence because we are unique among European countries and have a particular and special interest in Brexit and its potential implications? In the context of Dr. Merkel being one of the most influential Heads of Government, has the Taoiseach discussed with her the proposals, which are really for the Commission, of a team to negotiate on behalf of the Commission?
I agree with Deputy Micheál Martin that there is a tone emanating from Europe of broad indifference to whenever Brexit will happen. The implications of that for Ireland are profound because it means we will be counted out, so it is important there should be a significant Irish presence at senior official and other level, which the Taoiseach might care to indicate, in the pursuit of Ireland’s interests from both the perspective of the two islands but also from the perspective of our continuing and ongoing membership of the European Union. Second-----
I will interrupt Deputy Burton if she does not mind, as I wish to bring in Deputy Eamon Ryan and to allow time for a response, as we are running out of time.
Of course.
I ask Deputy Ryan to be brief.
I will be very brief. In the conversation with Chancellor Merkel, did the Taoiseach raise the concern many people have that the German Government has brought about a diminished role for the Commission in its dealings with the European Union, preferring to use the Council instead? As the Taoiseach is aware, the Commission has traditionally been seen as offering protection for smaller states. Was there any discussion on the relative roles of the Commission versus the Council in how we manage Brexit or in terms of the range of issues we face?
We have two minutes remaining.
I will respond to the questions in reverse order. In response to the question from Deputy Eamon Ryan, the matter was discussed at the European Council. It was always the Commission that provided the expertise to deal with countries that were pursuing their application to join the Union. This is the first time a country is willing to leave. The Commission will still use its expertise in negotiation but it will be overseen politically by the elected leaders of the countries and the Heads of Government. That is as it should be.
In response to Deputy Burton's question, yes, we will have an arrangement and senior officials will know exactly at every point the discussions that are taking place because it is critical for us that we know what exactly is going on. Deputies can believe me that when it comes back to the European Council for the political decisions, we will be in possession of all the facts. Deputy Burton also inquired whether Chancellor Merkel recognises the unique position of this country. Yes, she does, acutely. She is very conscious of it. She knows full well the importance of the European peace process, the support Europe has given and how critical it has been to Ireland. She understands the land border within the EU from Dundalk to Derry. I must say she is very conscious of that.
In response to the points made by Deputy Micheál Martin on Syria, this is a humanitarian scandal. Could one imagine three quarters of Dublin being without water and being blown asunder? The focus from Europeans who are not affected by the conflict is to build a European Union of peace, prosperity and stability and that there is a hell beyond the border. The root cause is not being tackled. I thought that when Secretary of State Kerry and Foreign Minister Lavrov put together a peace agreement after five years that it would stand some chance, yet the situation has disintegrated into absolute mayhem. Aleppo is being bombed and is in the process of being obliterated. The politics of the situation is that Russia and Iran support President Assad and America and the EU support the unofficial opposition and rebels. Turkey has a problem with the Kurds. Deputy Micheál Martin is quite right that at the European Council meeting, there was a proposition that there should be a European Union policy particular to the eastern Balkans, which is now suffering more from the influence of Russia than of the European Union or the United Nations. Those are matters we need to talk about.
I am afraid we are out of time. The Taoiseach must wrap up.
In response to Deputy Adams, I discussed the question of the refugee crisis with Chancellor Merkel but my primary purpose was to explain to her the particular relationship Ireland has with the UK and the European Union. We are at an elbow, so to speak, in that regard. She has a very clear picture of where we are.
Chancellor Merkel is acutely conscious of the economic strength of Germany but she is also acutely conscious of just how fragile this entire business is for the European Union and we need to discuss it rationally and proceed with great caution.
I thank the Taoiseach. We are eating into the time for the second group of questions, Nos. 2 to 6.