Joan Burton
Question:2. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the convening of the Citizens' Assembly. [30290/16]
View answerWednesday, 19 October 2016
Questions (2)
Oral answers (16 contributions)
As Deputies will be aware, the inaugural meeting of the assembly took place last Saturday, 15 October. I attended the meeting to wish the members well in their work. I understand the assembly will meet again on the last weekend in November, at which time it will begin consideration of its first item, the eighth amendment to the Constitution. The website for the assembly is operational and submissions are being invited on its first item, the eighth amendment to the Constitution. A schedule of meetings is also available on the assembly's website, along with a list of the names and county location of the assembly members. The assembly is chaired by a Supreme Court judge, Ms Justice Laffoy. It operates independently of the Government and will report directly to the Houses of the Oireachtas. It decides on all matters relating to its operation, including its rules and procedures, the timing of its meetings and, subject to the resolution passed by the Houses, the prioritisation of its work programme.
At the weekend, I saw the coverage of the opening of the Citizens' Assembly. From a strategic point of view, it seems there are two possible critical outcomes from the work of the assembly. One is that the members of the assembly, who I am told have complete latitude as to what they decide and how they frame their proposals, may propose an amendment to section 8 of the Constitution, which would be put to the people as a fresh amendment. I would like the Taoiseach to indicate whether, in his view, it is within the remit of the Citizens' Assembly to propose a further amendment to the Constitution in respect of the life of the mother and the life of the baby. I would like the Taoiseach to indicate whether this is his view of what may happen. The second recommendation the Citizens' Assembly, in its wisdom, may make is to propose that the eighth amendment should be repealed and that subsequent issues should be dealt with by Dáil Éireann. These are the two critical possibilities arising from the work of the assembly.
The Taoiseach will have heard my colleague and party leader, Deputy Brendan Howlin, raising the issue of rogue pregnancy advice services which are suggesting to women that if they seek a termination, they are at risk of serious illnesses such as breast cancer or that if they have children subsequently, they may abuse them. Most women who read those stories felt very distressed for the women receiving this advice. People are in a difficult situation. It is very personal, emotional and difficult for many people. It is not easy. Nobody would wish it to happen to somebody close to them. The Taoiseach has a political strategy for the Citizens' Assembly. This political strategy is the Taoiseach's prerogative and is understandable. However, this is also about the lives and rights of women and of their partners and families. Are we being led into a cul-de-sac in which we will find a reborn, revised eighth amendment to the Constitution? Will the Taoiseach confirm that the Citizens' Assembly will have the right to propose the repeal of the eighth amendment?
I commend all of those participating at the Citizens' Assembly. I welcome Ms Justice Laffoy's statement that the assembly's work will be open and transparent. The Taoiseach will recall that, when the Constitutional Convention was being put in place, Sinn Féin made a full proposition to the Government that would have reshaped our Constitution for a future Ireland and re-imagined the Ireland of tomorrow. Of course, the Government did not go with it. However, the Constitutional Convention worked. The Government still has to act on some of its recommendations. The Citizens' Assembly is a less effective structure. The Government has insisted on that structure. There is no political representation and there are no voices from the North. There has been no explanation for the latter failure. It is wrong that we should be partitionist in our approach to these issues. I have raised this matter with the Taoiseach previously. It is a serious mistake.
There is speculation that the discussion on the eighth amendment could take six months before the matter is returned to an Oireachtas committee and that the report of the assembly might not be with the Oireachtas until next June. If so, a final decision by the Dáil on whether there will be a referendum on repealing the eighth amendment could be a year away. I firmly believe that the Government's approach is one of delaying a referendum and the type of legislation that would be required. Let me be clear in that Sinn Féin will campaign for the repeal of the eighth amendment and for legislation to be enacted in order to allow for terminations in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and incest. That is what we were sent here, paid and mandated to do. Will the Taoiseach provide greater clarity on the timeframe for the assembly's report on the eighth amendment coming to the Oireachtas?
Similarly, the Green Party has concerns that a report on this issue arriving in June would constitute a long process. Does the Taoiseach consider that it could be done sooner than the indicative timeline reported at the weekend? Will the Taoiseach outline the mechanism for Oireachtas Members to access some of the information that the Citizens' Assembly is getting while the process is under way so that we do not arrive at the point of having a debate in the Chamber in the absence of our having been informed of the evidence, presentations and submissions? It is important that Members be involved, if not directly in the assembly, and kept up to speed with what is happening.
Will the same people who have been selected for this part of the assembly be expected to carry on with further aspects of its work or will they be given honourable discharges and a new set of people appointed? What is envisaged will be a difficult task for any citizen to carry out. Is it expected that the same people will continue in the other branches of the assembly's work?
First of all, this matter has divided Irish society on many occasions in the past. Nobody under 50 years of age has actually voted on this question. I have no intention of presuming to know what the Citizens' Assembly will recommend or the proposals with which it may come forward. Who are the members of the Citizens' Assembly? They are ordinary men and women from all over the country, chosen at random by a polling company that tendered for the work on the basis of region, gender, age and so on. They are all ordinary people. They are tasked, under the direction of Ms Justice Laffoy, to consider the eighth amendment of the Constitution. They will go through that, I am quite sure, in great detail.
Is this process open? Yes. It is all streamed live. Can anybody from around the world make a submission to it? Yes, people can, including those from Northern Ireland.
The work of the assembly will be quite intensive, I would think, over a number of weekends when it starts to discuss the various elements of the eighth amendment. There are more than two possible outcomes, Deputy Burton. There are at least six different options that could be chosen, depending on the Citizens' Assembly and what it wants to do. I want to be clear on this - there is no political direction being given to it and there is no political cul-de-sac being put in place. Nobody under 50 years of age has voted on this issue in Ireland. It is something that obviously will create its own divisions again in our society as these discussions take place, but the Citizens' Assembly will not be making the decision. That will come back to the legislators here.
It is not for me to say whether Ms Justice Laffoy and the assembly will finish their work on the eighth amendment inside four months or five months. Ms Justice Laffoy, an esteemed member of the Supreme Court, said that she would hope to report to the Oireachtas. It is to the Oireachtas that the assembly will report, not the Government. The Oireachtas has approved the mandate for the Citizens' Assembly to do its work. I think that is a very valuable thing. The question of the eighth amendment is one that requires rational, commonsensical, comprehensive and sensitive discussion. These ordinary people from all over the country will bring that to bear in their discussions.
To answer Deputy Eamon Ryan, I do not see any reason at all for the information that is made available to the assembly to be kept from public representatives in any way. It should all be public. Is that not what this is about? It is a Citizens' Assembly and, therefore, the information being made available to it should be available to everybody so that the national conversation about this issue can be held in a proper manner. In that sense, we do not want to have a situation where people feel excluded in any way. The proceedings of the assembly are streamed live. It is wide open and transparent. It is under the command of a very experienced Supreme Court judge. I do not believe, Deputy Adams, that it is in any way less effective than the previous citizens convention, which did include politicians and which ordinary people were a bit shy of in the beginning until they got an understanding of the work that could be involved. Whatever recommendations and whatever proposals come from the Citizens' Assembly will come back to this Legislature because it is to the Oireachtas that the assembly will report. It will not report to me or the Government, it will report to the Oireachtas. This is the people's issue. It is a national issue. As the Deputy knows, not a comma, full stop, word or line of the Constitution can be changed without the people's imprimatur.
I wished those participating at the assembly the very best in their contributions, thanked them for their commitment and their time in a voluntary capacity, thanked them for their courage and made a specific appeal, given that it is the first time that this issue has been dealt with in the age of digital communication, that those who appear on social media should allow these people the respect and time to give of their views on a sensitive issue in a way that we would all think fitting and to remember that remarks made on social media about comments being made by the Citizens' Assembly can sometimes have a devastating effect on people themselves. These are ordinary citizens chosen at random, willing and wishing to give of their participation in addressing a national issue. I hope that they are given the time and respect to do that in a way that they want to.
Could I-----
Only ten seconds remain.
I just want to ask a brief follow-up question. I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. It expanded our knowledge.
Time is up.
This is the first that I have learned of there being six options.
It behoves the Taoiseach to explain to us the six options. It is important and significant that the Taoiseach rightly said that the report of the assembly is to the Oireachtas. However, the Taoiseach addressed the assembly without the presence, as far as I am aware, of any other Members or representative group from the Oireachtas. Has the Taoiseach had the opportunity to meet, brief or be briefed by the judge in charge of the convention? As a matter of urgency, we must know the six options the Taoiseach referred to.
The Taoiseach will have to find another time-----
I will not.
We are a minute over time in this slot and depriving Deputy Adams of his time.
It is pretty urgent for the women in Ireland.
We need to hear this.
There are not just six options. There are at least six options that could be considered. I am not going into that because it is not my remit. This is a function of the Citizens' Assembly. I have not been briefed by the Supreme Court judge other than to have a brief conversation with her before the assembly commenced. She is entirely in charge of it and it is in very capable hands. I know she will do a first-class job. She called the members together at 2 p.m. after the formal opening, commenced proceedings and explained what is required and how they should go about their business. There are many options that could be considered but they are all for the Citizens' Assembly to consider. The information is available and proceedings are streamed live. Anybody can make contributions. It comes back to the Oireachtas and not the Government.